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Is Sikh Philosophy Empiricism Or Rationalism?
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<blockquote data-quote="eileen" data-source="post: 200082" data-attributes="member: 20449"><p>thanks Tejwant Singh Ji, i can certainly do that and clarify.</p><p></p><p>at first when i am referring to "God" i am just generically talking about testing into how a person knows something, i.e., epistemology, in the normal world. so as i go about my day, i use my senses to empirically observe things like color and sound and external objects and confirm that i "know" something. i also use my rational mind and draw conclusions from ideas, with an analytical process and that is another way that i "know" something. </p><p></p><p>without going into detail outside of Gurbani, i think these are tools that people often use , rightly or wrongly, to support their beliefs. tangible things like observing a miracle, or reasoned ideas like the world is very improbable and therefore a divine hand must have been the source of creation.</p><p></p><p>but my interpretation as i read Gurbani is that i am guided toward an internal process and a different kind of "knowing" when it comes to knowing the creator, Akal Purukh, which does not rely on external senses and also does not rely on reasoning.</p><p></p><p>Japji Sahib concepts of Sunniai and Manniai give me this idea of deeper listening and deeper understanding, not my external senses or logical brain.</p><p></p><p>and i think these 2 Banis from Guru Raamdaas Saahib illustrates this idea, i have copied it here from page 171-172 from Srigranth.org with Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation: </p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ Ga▫oṛī pūrbī mėhlā 4. Gauri Purbi, 4th Guru. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਰਥਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹਮ ਬੇਚਿਆ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਆਗੇ ॥ Har har arath sarīr ham becẖi▫ā pūre gur kai āge. For the sake of the Lord Master, I have sold off my body to the Perfect Guru. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਾਤੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗ ਸਭਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ Saṯgur ḏāṯai nām ḏiṛā▫i▫ā mukẖ masṯak bẖāg sabẖāge. ||1|| The beneficent True Guru has implanted God 's Name within me. On my face and forehead, very auspicious destiny is recorded. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਰਾਮ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Rām gurmaṯ har liv lāge. ||1|| rahā▫o. By Guru 's gospel, man comes to embrace affection for the Lord God. Pause. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਮਈਆ ਰਮਤ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ Gẖat gẖat rama▫ī▫ā ramaṯ rām rā▫e gur sabaḏ gurū liv lāge. In every heart the sovereign Pervading Lord is contained. Through the Guru 's word and the Guru love for Him in contracted. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਵਉ ਕਾਟਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਉ ਮੇਰਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਭਾਗੇ ॥੨॥ Ha▫o man ṯan ḏeva▫o kāt gurū ka▫o merā bẖaram bẖa▫o gur bacẖnī bẖāge. ||2|| Cutting my mind and body into pieces, I offer them to my Guru. By Guru 's word, my doubt and dread depart. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਅੰਧਿਆਰੈ ਦੀਪਕ ਆਨਿ ਜਲਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ Anḏẖi▫ārai ḏīpak ān jalā▫e gur gi▫ān gurū liv lāge. When the Guru comes and kindles the lamp of the great Divine-Knowledge in darkness mortal 's attention is fixed on God. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਨਾਸਿਓ ਘਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਲਹੀ ਮਨ ਜਾਗੇ ॥੩॥ Agi▫ān anḏẖerā binas bināsi▫o gẖar vasaṯ lahī man jāge. ||3|| The darkness of ignorance altogether eliminated, the mind is awakened, and finds the commodity within its home. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਸਾਕਤ ਬਧਿਕ ਮਾਇਆਧਾਰੀ ਤਿਨ ਜਮ ਜੋਹਨਿ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ Sākaṯ baḏẖik mā▫i▫āḏẖārī ṯin jam johan lāge. Those who are materialists perverse hunters to them the Death 's courier begins to stalk. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਉਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਸੀਸੁ ਨ ਬੇਚਿਆ ਓਇ ਆਵਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਅਭਾਗੇ ॥੪॥ Un saṯgur āgai sīs na becẖi▫ā o▫e āvahi jāhi abẖāge. ||4|| They have not sold their head to the True Guru. Those unfortunate ones continue coming and going. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਹਮਰਾ ਬਿਨਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਹਮ ਸਰਣਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਗੇ ॥ Hamrā bin▫o sunhu parabẖ ṯẖākur ham saraṇ parabẖū har māge. Listen Thou to my supplication O Lord Master. I ask for the sanctuary of the Lord God. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਲਜ ਪਾਤਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਸਿਰੁ ਬੇਚਿਓ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੇ ॥੫॥੧੦॥੨੪॥੬੨॥ Jan Nānak kī laj pāṯ gurū hai sir becẖi▫o saṯgur āge. ||5||10||24||62|| Slave Nanak 's respect and honour is the Guru. He has sold off his head to the True Guru. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ Ga▫oṛī pūrbī mėhlā 4. Gauri Purbi, 4th Guru. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਹਮ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ Ham ahaʼnkārī ahaʼnkār agi▫ān maṯ gur mili▫ai āp gavā▫i▫ā. I am proud, and haughty is my darkened intellect. By meeting the Guru, I have affected my self-conceit. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਇਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ Ha▫umai rog ga▫i▫ā sukẖ pā▫i▫ā ḏẖan ḏẖan gurū har rā▫i▫ā. ||1|| The ailment of ego is gone, and I have procured peace. Blessed blessed is Guru-God, the King. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਰਾਮ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Rām gur kai bacẖan har pā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Through Guru 's hymns, I have obtained the Pervading Lord God. Pause. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਮੇਰੈ ਹੀਅਰੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ ਕੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪੰਥੁ ਬਤਾਇਆ ॥ Merai hī▫arai parīṯ rām rā▫e kī gur mārag panth baṯā▫i▫ā. Within my mind is the love of the Sovereign Lord. The Guru has shown me the path and way to Him. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਮੇਰਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਵਿਛੁੜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਗਲਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ Merā jī▫o pind sabẖ saṯgur āgai jin vicẖẖuṛi▫ā har gal lā▫i▫ā. ||2|| My soul and body are all at the disposal of the True Guru, who has caused me, the separated one, to embrace God. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਮੇਰੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੀ ਦੇਖਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥ Merai anṯar parīṯ lagī ḏekẖan ka▫o gur hirḏe nāl ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. Within me is the love to see the Lord. The Guru caused me to see Him close to (in) my mind. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਸਹਜ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਮੋਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਆਪੁ ਵੇਚਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ Sahj anand bẖa▫i▫ā man morai gur āgai āp vecẖā▫i▫ā. ||3|| Within my mind is peace and pleasure, I, myself am a sell off to the Guru,</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਹਮ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਪਾਪ ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨੇ ਕਰਿ ਦੁਸਟੀ ਚੋਰ ਚੁਰਾਇਆ ॥ Ham aprāḏẖ pāp baho kīne kar ḏustī cẖor cẖurā▫i▫ā. I have perpetrated many wicked deeds and sins. Becoming a villainous thief I have thieved. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">ਅਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਆਏ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਲਾਜ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੨੫॥੬੩॥ Ab Nānak sarṇāgaṯ ā▫e har rākẖo lāj har bẖā▫i▫ā. ||4||11||25||63|| Nanak, now has sought God 's shelter. By Thine pleasure, O God, preserve my honour. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>i think these verses illustrate the uselessness of the body to and that to understand the creator and illuminate the darkness, one turns the focus inward to where the Creator exists - but not inward to the mind, but toward the heart, i think perhaps as metaphor for this internal sense. in particular, the line ਮੇਰੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੀ ਦੇਖਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥ is interesting because it seems to describe a "seeing" within, and i think you could translate hirade naali as near the heart.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="eileen, post: 200082, member: 20449"] thanks Tejwant Singh Ji, i can certainly do that and clarify. at first when i am referring to "God" i am just generically talking about testing into how a person knows something, i.e., epistemology, in the normal world. so as i go about my day, i use my senses to empirically observe things like color and sound and external objects and confirm that i "know" something. i also use my rational mind and draw conclusions from ideas, with an analytical process and that is another way that i "know" something. without going into detail outside of Gurbani, i think these are tools that people often use , rightly or wrongly, to support their beliefs. tangible things like observing a miracle, or reasoned ideas like the world is very improbable and therefore a divine hand must have been the source of creation. but my interpretation as i read Gurbani is that i am guided toward an internal process and a different kind of "knowing" when it comes to knowing the creator, Akal Purukh, which does not rely on external senses and also does not rely on reasoning. Japji Sahib concepts of Sunniai and Manniai give me this idea of deeper listening and deeper understanding, not my external senses or logical brain. and i think these 2 Banis from Guru Raamdaas Saahib illustrates this idea, i have copied it here from page 171-172 from Srigranth.org with Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation: [INDENT] ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ Ga▫oṛī pūrbī mėhlā 4. Gauri Purbi, 4th Guru. ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਰਥਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹਮ ਬੇਚਿਆ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਆਗੇ ॥ Har har arath sarīr ham becẖi▫ā pūre gur kai āge. For the sake of the Lord Master, I have sold off my body to the Perfect Guru. ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਾਤੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗ ਸਭਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ Saṯgur ḏāṯai nām ḏiṛā▫i▫ā mukẖ masṯak bẖāg sabẖāge. ||1|| The beneficent True Guru has implanted God 's Name within me. On my face and forehead, very auspicious destiny is recorded. ਰਾਮ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Rām gurmaṯ har liv lāge. ||1|| rahā▫o. By Guru 's gospel, man comes to embrace affection for the Lord God. Pause. ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਮਈਆ ਰਮਤ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ Gẖat gẖat rama▫ī▫ā ramaṯ rām rā▫e gur sabaḏ gurū liv lāge. In every heart the sovereign Pervading Lord is contained. Through the Guru 's word and the Guru love for Him in contracted. ਹਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਵਉ ਕਾਟਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਉ ਮੇਰਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਭਾਗੇ ॥੨॥ Ha▫o man ṯan ḏeva▫o kāt gurū ka▫o merā bẖaram bẖa▫o gur bacẖnī bẖāge. ||2|| Cutting my mind and body into pieces, I offer them to my Guru. By Guru 's word, my doubt and dread depart. ਅੰਧਿਆਰੈ ਦੀਪਕ ਆਨਿ ਜਲਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ Anḏẖi▫ārai ḏīpak ān jalā▫e gur gi▫ān gurū liv lāge. When the Guru comes and kindles the lamp of the great Divine-Knowledge in darkness mortal 's attention is fixed on God. ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਨਾਸਿਓ ਘਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਲਹੀ ਮਨ ਜਾਗੇ ॥੩॥ Agi▫ān anḏẖerā binas bināsi▫o gẖar vasaṯ lahī man jāge. ||3|| The darkness of ignorance altogether eliminated, the mind is awakened, and finds the commodity within its home. ਸਾਕਤ ਬਧਿਕ ਮਾਇਆਧਾਰੀ ਤਿਨ ਜਮ ਜੋਹਨਿ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ Sākaṯ baḏẖik mā▫i▫āḏẖārī ṯin jam johan lāge. Those who are materialists perverse hunters to them the Death 's courier begins to stalk. ਉਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਸੀਸੁ ਨ ਬੇਚਿਆ ਓਇ ਆਵਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਅਭਾਗੇ ॥੪॥ Un saṯgur āgai sīs na becẖi▫ā o▫e āvahi jāhi abẖāge. ||4|| They have not sold their head to the True Guru. Those unfortunate ones continue coming and going. ਹਮਰਾ ਬਿਨਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਹਮ ਸਰਣਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਗੇ ॥ Hamrā bin▫o sunhu parabẖ ṯẖākur ham saraṇ parabẖū har māge. Listen Thou to my supplication O Lord Master. I ask for the sanctuary of the Lord God. ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਲਜ ਪਾਤਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਸਿਰੁ ਬੇਚਿਓ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੇ ॥੫॥੧੦॥੨੪॥੬੨॥ Jan Nānak kī laj pāṯ gurū hai sir becẖi▫o saṯgur āge. ||5||10||24||62|| Slave Nanak 's respect and honour is the Guru. He has sold off his head to the True Guru. ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ Ga▫oṛī pūrbī mėhlā 4. Gauri Purbi, 4th Guru. ਹਮ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ Ham ahaʼnkārī ahaʼnkār agi▫ān maṯ gur mili▫ai āp gavā▫i▫ā. I am proud, and haughty is my darkened intellect. By meeting the Guru, I have affected my self-conceit. ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਇਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ Ha▫umai rog ga▫i▫ā sukẖ pā▫i▫ā ḏẖan ḏẖan gurū har rā▫i▫ā. ||1|| The ailment of ego is gone, and I have procured peace. Blessed blessed is Guru-God, the King. ਰਾਮ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Rām gur kai bacẖan har pā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Through Guru 's hymns, I have obtained the Pervading Lord God. Pause. ਮੇਰੈ ਹੀਅਰੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਇ ਕੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪੰਥੁ ਬਤਾਇਆ ॥ Merai hī▫arai parīṯ rām rā▫e kī gur mārag panth baṯā▫i▫ā. Within my mind is the love of the Sovereign Lord. The Guru has shown me the path and way to Him. ਮੇਰਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਵਿਛੁੜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਗਲਿ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ Merā jī▫o pind sabẖ saṯgur āgai jin vicẖẖuṛi▫ā har gal lā▫i▫ā. ||2|| My soul and body are all at the disposal of the True Guru, who has caused me, the separated one, to embrace God. ਮੇਰੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੀ ਦੇਖਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥ Merai anṯar parīṯ lagī ḏekẖan ka▫o gur hirḏe nāl ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. Within me is the love to see the Lord. The Guru caused me to see Him close to (in) my mind. ਸਹਜ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਮੋਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਆਪੁ ਵੇਚਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ Sahj anand bẖa▫i▫ā man morai gur āgai āp vecẖā▫i▫ā. ||3|| Within my mind is peace and pleasure, I, myself am a sell off to the Guru, ਹਮ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਪਾਪ ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨੇ ਕਰਿ ਦੁਸਟੀ ਚੋਰ ਚੁਰਾਇਆ ॥ Ham aprāḏẖ pāp baho kīne kar ḏustī cẖor cẖurā▫i▫ā. I have perpetrated many wicked deeds and sins. Becoming a villainous thief I have thieved. ਅਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਆਏ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਲਾਜ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੨੫॥੬੩॥ Ab Nānak sarṇāgaṯ ā▫e har rākẖo lāj har bẖā▫i▫ā. ||4||11||25||63|| Nanak, now has sought God 's shelter. By Thine pleasure, O God, preserve my honour. [/INDENT] i think these verses illustrate the uselessness of the body to and that to understand the creator and illuminate the darkness, one turns the focus inward to where the Creator exists - but not inward to the mind, but toward the heart, i think perhaps as metaphor for this internal sense. in particular, the line ਮੇਰੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗੀ ਦੇਖਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥ is interesting because it seems to describe a "seeing" within, and i think you could translate hirade naali as near the heart. [/QUOTE]
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