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Interpretation Of Religious Scriptures
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 138499" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Kamala ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The direction you are coming from and object of consideration is no doubt different from mine. But it so happened that when I first joined another Sikh group before I did this one, I made a comment there, to the opposite effect to the one you are making here. I had said that the better teachings will vanish while the bad ones will remain. Of course I wasn’t thinking about such people as the Taliban, but more those who would end up giving the impression of religiosity, or they could in fact be kind and gentle and morally upright, however because they *lack wisdom*, any good becomes corrupted in the long run. Indeed many of these would speak out against such extremists as the Taliban and involve themselves in matters of social justice etc. But this is the very thing which attracts the unknowing masses, and they too end up going down the spiral of corruption…..</p><p></p><p>I hope you don’t mind me giving some input from the Buddhist perspective which may be relevant to this thread. Here are quotes, some by the Buddha himself and others are by the commentaries:</p><p></p><p>*************</p><p></p><p>Kindred Sayings xvi, 12</p><p>"Thus have I heard: The Exalted One was once staying at Savatthi, at</p><p>Jeta Grove, in the Anathapindika Park.</p><p>Now the venerable Maha-Kassapa went into his presence, saluted him</p><p>and sat down beside him. So seated, the venerable Maha-Kassapa said</p><p>this to the Exalted One: 'What now, Lord, are the conditions, what</p><p>is the cause that formerly there were both fewer precepts and more</p><p>brethren were established as Arahants ? What, lord, are the</p><p>conditions, what is the cause that now-a-days there are more</p><p>precepts and fewer brethren are established as Arahants?'</p><p>'It happens thus, Kassapa. When members decrease, and the true</p><p>doctrine disappears, there are then more precepts, and few brethren</p><p>are established as Arahants. There is no disappearing of the true</p><p>doctrine, Kassapa, till a counterfeit doctrine arises in the world;</p><p>but when a counterfeit doctrine does arise, then there is a</p><p>disappearance of the true doctrine. Just as there is no disappearing</p><p>of gold so long as there is no counterfeit gold arisen in the world.</p><p>So it is with the true doctrine.</p><p>' The earth-element, Kassapa, does not make the true doctrine</p><p>disappear, nor does the water-element, nor the heat-element, nor the</p><p>air-element. But here in the Order itself futile men arise, and it</p><p>is they who make the true doctrine disappear.</p><p>'Take the sinking of a ship, Kassapa, by overlading: it is not thus</p><p>that the true doctrine disappears. There are five lowering things</p><p>that conduce to the obscuration and disappearance of the true</p><p>doctrine. Which five?</p><p></p><p>'It is when brethren and sisters, laymen and laywomen live in</p><p>irreverence and are unruly toward the Teacher, live in irreverence</p><p>and are unruly toward the training, live in irreverence and are</p><p>unruly toward concentrative study.</p><p>'But when they live in reverence and docility toward these Five,</p><p>then do these five things conduce to the maintenance, the clarity,</p><p>the presence of the true doctrine.""</p><p></p><p>**************</p><p></p><p>Further in the commentary to the Parinibbana Sutta, we read about</p><p>MahaKassapa’s concern for the preservation of the Dhamma:</p><p></p><p>“ ‘In the teaching which the Blessed One established with effort, a thorn</p><p>has so quickly become a major evil defect. This wicked man is indeed</p><p>capable of growing and acquiring other companions like himself and so</p><p>causing the teaching to disappear.........As flowers blown by the wind</p><p>scatter here and there, so by the influence of people like this, as time</p><p>passes, a rule of training or two will be lost from the Vinaya. A</p><p>question or two will be lost from the Sutta; a difference between stages</p><p>or two will be lost from the Abhidhamma, so in due course, when the root</p><p>[basic text] is destroyed, we will become like demons. Therefore I will</p><p>have the Dhamma and Vinaya recited. When it is done, this Dhamma and</p><p>Vinaya will be immovable like the flowers tied together by strong string.</p><p>It is for this reason that the Blessed One walked three leagues to meet me</p><p>[see Ja 469]: gave me the ordination with three homilies [see SN11 220];</p><p>gave me his own robe from his body in exchange; talked about the path</p><p>through a simile of the moon, by waving his hand in the sky, and made me</p><p>realise the truth; gave the jewel of the whole teaching three times.</p><p>While monks like me remain alive, let this evil man not prosper within our</p><p>doctrine.</p><p></p><p>I will have both the Dhamma and the Vinaya rehe{censored}d before what is not</p><p>Dhamma shines out and Dhamma is kept out, before those who speak what is</p><p>not Dhamma become strong and those who speak Dhamma become feeble, before those who speak what is not Vinaya become strong and those who speak Vinaya become feeble. Then monks, each memorising what he is capable of himself, will tell what is legitimate from what is not legitimate. Then</p><p>this evil man will by himself incur censure and will not be able to hold up his head again....’” <end quote></p><p></p><p>***************</p><p></p><p>One’s own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it</p><p>should be accepted, but otherwise not. ‘The three Councils’ are the one</p><p>of five hundred monks, the one of seven hundred, the one of a thousand.</p><p>Only a sutta transmitted through them is authoritative; any other is a</p><p>contemptible sutta, not to be accepted. Even though words and syllables</p><p>appear in the latter, they should be known ‘as ones which do not appear in</p><p>the Sutta, are not found in the Vinaya.’ “<end quote></p><p></p><p>*************</p><p></p><p></p><p>The commentary to the passage (ch 5) regarding veneration of the Tathagata</p><p>also has a lot of detail. Material worship (aamisa-puujaa) “cannot sustain</p><p>Buddhism (saasana) for a single day, or even for the time it takes to</p><p>drink one helping of rice gruel. A thousand monasteries like the</p><p>Mahaavihaara and a thousand stuupas like the Mahaacetiya cannot sustain</p><p>Buddhism. The deed done belongs to the doer alone. It is right conduct</p><p>(sammaapa.tipatti) that is suitable as honour to the Tathaagata, for that</p><p>is what he desired and what can sustain Buddhism.” <end quote></p><p></p><p>**************</p><p></p><p>Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of</p><p>true Dhamma. What two? The wrong expression of the letter (of the</p><p>text) and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the</p><p>letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is</p><p>also wrong..... Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment,</p><p>the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two?</p><p>The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the</p><p>meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation</p><p>of the meaning is also right....</p><p></p><p>"When it disappears, it is the Great Work [i.e. Patthaana. That first disappears; when that has disappeared, …….. When the Abhidhamma-Pitaka has disappeared, the Suttanta-Pitaka will also disappear. When the Suttanta disappears, it is first the Anguttara-Nikaaya that disappears…………My disciples will only remember the Jaataka together with the Vinaya-Pitaka. It is, however, only the well-conducted priests that will remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. But as time goes on they will be unable to remember the Jaataka, and first the Vessantara Birth-Story will disappear……….. When the Jaataka has disappeared, they will only remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. As time goes on the Vinaya-Pitaka will disappear, but as long as a four-line stanza remains among men, so long the disappearance of learning will not have occurred. </p><p></p><p>But when a pious king shall cause a purse containing a thousand pieces of money to be placed in a golden casket on the back of an elephant, and shall cause proclamation up to the second and third time to be made throughout the city to the sound of the drum, as follows: 'Anyone who knows a single stanza spoken by The Buddhas, let him take these thousand coins together with this elephant,' and yet shall fail to find anyone who knows a four-line stanza, and shall receive again the purse containing the thousand pieces into the royal palace, then the disappearance of learning will have occurred.</p><p></p><p>*************</p><p></p><p>"This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of learning.</p><p></p><p>"Now as time goes on the last of the priests will carry their robes, their</p><p>bowls, and their tooth-sticks after the manner of the naked ascetics. They will take a bottle-gourd, make of it a begging-bowl, and carry it in their arms, or in their hands, or in the balance of a carrying-pole. And as time goes on a</p><p>priest will say, 'What is the good of this yellow robe?' and cut a small piece</p><p>of yellow cloth, and tie it around his neck, or his ears, or his hair, and</p><p>devote himself to husbandry or trade and the like, and to taking care of wife</p><p>and children. Then he will give gifts to the southern congregation. And the</p><p>fruit of this gift, say I, will be a myriadfold. As time goes on the priests</p><p>will say, 'What do we want with this?' and they will throw away the piece of</p><p>yellow cloth and persecute the wild animals and birds of the forest, and thus</p><p>the disappearance of the symbols will have occurred."</p><p></p><p>*************</p><p></p><p>Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7</p><p><...In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, profound, transcendent, connected with the Void [alex: sunnata] — are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping and mastering. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.</p><p></p><p>"And again, there will be in the course of the future monks undeveloped in</p><p>body... virtue... mind... discernment. They — being undeveloped in body...</p><p>virtue... mind... discernment — will become elders living in luxury, lethargic,</p><p>foremost in falling back, shirking the duties of solitude. They will not make an</p><p>effort for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the</p><p>as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. They will become an example for later generations, who will become luxurious in their living,</p><p>lethargic, foremost in falling back, shirking the duties of solitude, and who</p><p>will not make an effort for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.</p><p></p><p>End.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 138499, member: 586"] Kamala ji, The direction you are coming from and object of consideration is no doubt different from mine. But it so happened that when I first joined another Sikh group before I did this one, I made a comment there, to the opposite effect to the one you are making here. I had said that the better teachings will vanish while the bad ones will remain. Of course I wasn’t thinking about such people as the Taliban, but more those who would end up giving the impression of religiosity, or they could in fact be kind and gentle and morally upright, however because they *lack wisdom*, any good becomes corrupted in the long run. Indeed many of these would speak out against such extremists as the Taliban and involve themselves in matters of social justice etc. But this is the very thing which attracts the unknowing masses, and they too end up going down the spiral of corruption….. I hope you don’t mind me giving some input from the Buddhist perspective which may be relevant to this thread. Here are quotes, some by the Buddha himself and others are by the commentaries: ************* Kindred Sayings xvi, 12 "Thus have I heard: The Exalted One was once staying at Savatthi, at Jeta Grove, in the Anathapindika Park. Now the venerable Maha-Kassapa went into his presence, saluted him and sat down beside him. So seated, the venerable Maha-Kassapa said this to the Exalted One: 'What now, Lord, are the conditions, what is the cause that formerly there were both fewer precepts and more brethren were established as Arahants ? What, lord, are the conditions, what is the cause that now-a-days there are more precepts and fewer brethren are established as Arahants?' 'It happens thus, Kassapa. When members decrease, and the true doctrine disappears, there are then more precepts, and few brethren are established as Arahants. There is no disappearing of the true doctrine, Kassapa, till a counterfeit doctrine arises in the world; but when a counterfeit doctrine does arise, then there is a disappearance of the true doctrine. Just as there is no disappearing of gold so long as there is no counterfeit gold arisen in the world. So it is with the true doctrine. ' The earth-element, Kassapa, does not make the true doctrine disappear, nor does the water-element, nor the heat-element, nor the air-element. But here in the Order itself futile men arise, and it is they who make the true doctrine disappear. 'Take the sinking of a ship, Kassapa, by overlading: it is not thus that the true doctrine disappears. There are five lowering things that conduce to the obscuration and disappearance of the true doctrine. Which five? 'It is when brethren and sisters, laymen and laywomen live in irreverence and are unruly toward the Teacher, live in irreverence and are unruly toward the training, live in irreverence and are unruly toward concentrative study. 'But when they live in reverence and docility toward these Five, then do these five things conduce to the maintenance, the clarity, the presence of the true doctrine."" ************** Further in the commentary to the Parinibbana Sutta, we read about MahaKassapa’s concern for the preservation of the Dhamma: “ ‘In the teaching which the Blessed One established with effort, a thorn has so quickly become a major evil defect. This wicked man is indeed capable of growing and acquiring other companions like himself and so causing the teaching to disappear.........As flowers blown by the wind scatter here and there, so by the influence of people like this, as time passes, a rule of training or two will be lost from the Vinaya. A question or two will be lost from the Sutta; a difference between stages or two will be lost from the Abhidhamma, so in due course, when the root [basic text] is destroyed, we will become like demons. Therefore I will have the Dhamma and Vinaya recited. When it is done, this Dhamma and Vinaya will be immovable like the flowers tied together by strong string. It is for this reason that the Blessed One walked three leagues to meet me [see Ja 469]: gave me the ordination with three homilies [see SN11 220]; gave me his own robe from his body in exchange; talked about the path through a simile of the moon, by waving his hand in the sky, and made me realise the truth; gave the jewel of the whole teaching three times. While monks like me remain alive, let this evil man not prosper within our doctrine. I will have both the Dhamma and the Vinaya rehe{censored}d before what is not Dhamma shines out and Dhamma is kept out, before those who speak what is not Dhamma become strong and those who speak Dhamma become feeble, before those who speak what is not Vinaya become strong and those who speak Vinaya become feeble. Then monks, each memorising what he is capable of himself, will tell what is legitimate from what is not legitimate. Then this evil man will by himself incur censure and will not be able to hold up his head again....’” <end quote> *************** One’s own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. ‘The three Councils’ are the one of five hundred monks, the one of seven hundred, the one of a thousand. Only a sutta transmitted through them is authoritative; any other is a contemptible sutta, not to be accepted. Even though words and syllables appear in the latter, they should be known ‘as ones which do not appear in the Sutta, are not found in the Vinaya.’ “<end quote> ************* The commentary to the passage (ch 5) regarding veneration of the Tathagata also has a lot of detail. Material worship (aamisa-puujaa) “cannot sustain Buddhism (saasana) for a single day, or even for the time it takes to drink one helping of rice gruel. A thousand monasteries like the Mahaavihaara and a thousand stuupas like the Mahaacetiya cannot sustain Buddhism. The deed done belongs to the doer alone. It is right conduct (sammaapa.tipatti) that is suitable as honour to the Tathaagata, for that is what he desired and what can sustain Buddhism.” <end quote> ************** Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The wrong expression of the letter (of the text) and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong..... Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also right.... "When it disappears, it is the Great Work [i.e. Patthaana. That first disappears; when that has disappeared, …….. When the Abhidhamma-Pitaka has disappeared, the Suttanta-Pitaka will also disappear. When the Suttanta disappears, it is first the Anguttara-Nikaaya that disappears…………My disciples will only remember the Jaataka together with the Vinaya-Pitaka. It is, however, only the well-conducted priests that will remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. But as time goes on they will be unable to remember the Jaataka, and first the Vessantara Birth-Story will disappear……….. When the Jaataka has disappeared, they will only remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. As time goes on the Vinaya-Pitaka will disappear, but as long as a four-line stanza remains among men, so long the disappearance of learning will not have occurred. But when a pious king shall cause a purse containing a thousand pieces of money to be placed in a golden casket on the back of an elephant, and shall cause proclamation up to the second and third time to be made throughout the city to the sound of the drum, as follows: 'Anyone who knows a single stanza spoken by The Buddhas, let him take these thousand coins together with this elephant,' and yet shall fail to find anyone who knows a four-line stanza, and shall receive again the purse containing the thousand pieces into the royal palace, then the disappearance of learning will have occurred. ************* "This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of learning. "Now as time goes on the last of the priests will carry their robes, their bowls, and their tooth-sticks after the manner of the naked ascetics. They will take a bottle-gourd, make of it a begging-bowl, and carry it in their arms, or in their hands, or in the balance of a carrying-pole. And as time goes on a priest will say, 'What is the good of this yellow robe?' and cut a small piece of yellow cloth, and tie it around his neck, or his ears, or his hair, and devote himself to husbandry or trade and the like, and to taking care of wife and children. Then he will give gifts to the southern congregation. And the fruit of this gift, say I, will be a myriadfold. As time goes on the priests will say, 'What do we want with this?' and they will throw away the piece of yellow cloth and persecute the wild animals and birds of the forest, and thus the disappearance of the symbols will have occurred." ************* Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 <...In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, profound, transcendent, connected with the Void [alex: sunnata] — are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping and mastering. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. "And again, there will be in the course of the future monks undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They — being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment — will become elders living in luxury, lethargic, foremost in falling back, shirking the duties of solitude. They will not make an effort for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. They will become an example for later generations, who will become luxurious in their living, lethargic, foremost in falling back, shirking the duties of solitude, and who will not make an effort for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma. End. [/QUOTE]
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