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Vaar Gujari (517-526)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
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Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
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Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
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Gurbani (975-980)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
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Kaafee (1014-1016)
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Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
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Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
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Chhant (1278)
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Gurbani (1294-96)
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Gurbani (1352-53)
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Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
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Importance Of Amrit Questioned
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaan Pardesi" data-source="post: 134799" data-attributes="member: 7047"><p>Dear MSBaath,</p><p> </p><p>Very Interesting question.But along with it you have also raised many points, the value of which perhaps you did not really understand, nor you have explained with convincing evidence.You have mentioned many issues, but it appears many of them are based upon a lot of heresay that you have assumed to be facts.</p><p> </p><p>For my own clarity, I would ask you to clarify some of those issues so that we can arrive at a sensible conclusion, it would be helpful to all.</p><p> </p><p>Let us try and take some of them and make sense.</p><p> </p><p>You say :- <span style="color: sienna">"i mean there is so much confusion about maryada, the present sgpc which claims itself a rightful heir to akaal takht came into existence in 1900s, and they made a maryada depending on the scholars of that time which cannot be the correct maryada".</span></p><p> </p><p>Can you please qualify the above statement, with factual evidence.I certainly would not rule out that many detractors of the Panth do use these aimless and unfounded arguments to undermine the Sikh faith.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>The present SGPC is an elected and registered legal body of the Sikhs and and has been representative of majority in the Sikh panth at any given time.It was seen necessary to have this body in 1900s due to the politicalisation of communities in the Punjab.It is elected legally through a recognised process.Its poor and weak and politicalised functioning currently cannot be associated with its rightful entity and place.The poor and weak functioning is altogether a different matter.It does NOT claim any heirship to the Akal Takhat.It is duty bound to look after the Akal Takhat and affairs of certain specified Sikh Gurduaras within the Punjab;it also includes the same gurduaras that are now in Haryana, and Himcahal Pradesh.It is a soceity that the whole panth agitated for many years through the morchas/ agitation against the british colonial government.</p><p> </p><p>The maryada was NOT dependent upon the scholars.But Guru Granth sahib, and supported from evidence in the original Rehatnamas, compiled by the contemporaries of Guru Gobind Singh Ji;proven precedents and historical practices and finally the factual history.That is FOUR points of sources that are not influenced by anyone, scholar or not a scholar.Views and scholars were invited from all over the Sikh world; not simply a "few".But these had to work within the context of the Four points of sources.This process took nearly 18 years to formulate, check and counter check before finally the final copy of the propsed draft was seen fit to be published as the FINAL document.</p><p> </p><p>Anything based upon the Gurbani of Guru Granth sahib cannot be inaccurate nor change between then and now or in time to come.THIS IS BANI recorded by the Guru Sahiban in Guru Granth sahib by themselves.Not a word has been changed.Whether it is scholar NOW or then, the interpretation of Gurbani is the same, will be the same and remain so.Some language used to describe something in layman's terms may change.But the principles anchored would be the same as when it was revealed by the Gurus and now.</p><p> </p><p>Following continuous digression of practices by all types in management of Sikh Gurduaras and affairs, it was seen necessary to have a standard uniformed practice [Maryada]so that no further mahant type scenarios could develop and damage the Sikh religion and sangats.Such negative and derogatory onslaughts were seen from the arya smajist, Nirankaris, and the derawaad type babas and not to exclude islam and others like the christians.</p><p> </p><p>My question to you is again, WHAT makes YOU think that is it not "<span style="color: sienna">the correct maryada?"</span>A simple claim like that does not qualify anything and is evidently devoid of any substantial fact material.Very much, it is heresay fuel,like the unknown leading the unknowing.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: sienna">"i believe, so whats the point in following such a maryada which doesnot come directly from the guru."</span></p><p> </p><p>To follow a organisation/society / group one has to have an uniform and values, as such these are SIKH VALUES decided collectively by the Panth- the wholesome of the Sikh society.The core values that support these are in the Guru Granth sahib.They do come from the Guru Ji.The few ppeople who have read a little of the Guru Granth keep making such superficial claims that it is not in the Guru Granth sahib.If one reads carefully fully, it is all there.Incidently, some is in the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji as well.</p><p> </p><p>To begin with,I suggest read the Sarb Loh Granth-Guru Gobind Singh says;-</p><p> </p><p>THE KHALSA IS MY PARAMOUNT IMAGE, </p><p>IN THE KHALSA EVER RESIDES MY SPIRIT.</p><p>THE KHALSA IS MY BELOVED AND VENERABLE MASTER</p><p>THE KHALSA IS MY DIVINE PROTECTOR</p><p>THE KHALSA IS MY BODY AND SOUL</p><p>THE KHALSA IS THE EMBODIMENT OF THE TRUE AND PERFECT GURU</p><p>THE KHALSA IS MY GALLANT ANG KNIGHTLY FRIEND,</p><p>I HAVE STATED THE TRUTH WITHOUT AN IOTA OF MISCONSTRUCTION,</p><p>GOD AND GURU NANAK ARE TO THIS MY WITNESSES</p><p>THE KHALSA IS MY FATHER AND MOTHER </p><p> </p><p>Try understanding that.The zeal, power, the magic and electrifying blood chilling message is very loud and clear.But people who have never read the the writings of Guru Gobind Singh, with the insight and linguistic equipment it requires, not only misinterpet these powerfully sustaning words and writings but degrade themselves by exposing their own shallow knowledge , simply good enough to ridicule the Guru and their teachings!</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: sienna">"besides guru gobind singh ji gave the gaddi to guru granth sahib and it conains no reference to maryada all guru granth sahib stresses is to jap naam and live a righeous living."</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>That is not all that the Guru Ji says.I am afraid you have conveniently skipped the rest and concentrated on 0.1% of the Guru Granth sahib and make a sweeping statement ;shows one is being selective and not facing the reallity.When Guru Gobind Singh ji offered the GurGaddi to the Guru Granth sahib, he followed a maryada that was sat out by the preceeding Gurus.He offered, a narial and few other offerings,and bowed down- was part of a maryada.He read certain banis while preparing the amrit is part of that maryada that he sat out.He sat out the bana, and bani, and the Five kakaars as part of a definte maryada.So, it is erroneous to claim that he did not sat out maryada.This is a historic precedent and supported by the rehatnamas and his own bani.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: sienna">"karam kaands were criticised by guru nanak dont u think taking amrit is reduced to a mere karam kaand." </span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Yes, in current times, some of the amrit practices have been reduced to more than a ritual.But that is the current mentality of Sikhs, not the fault actions of the Amrit as sat out by the Guru sahib.The moral, and ethical standards of many have fallen and become politicised.Some babas now claim their various amrit sanchaars better then the next.That is wrong.But that does not make the amrit as sat out to be adhered to be wrong and a karam kaand.These days many believe strongly sticking some used bottles filled with water [perhaps of alcohol; coke and other drugs]under the Guru Granth sahib for a few hours turns that into "amrit"!Gurmukh Loko, that is NOT amrit.The real amrit came at the price of five heads.A Sikh ready to take amrit must offer his whole to the Guru Ji.</p><p> </p><p>If an amritdhari were to follow the noble principles and take amrit, that is not a karam kaand.It will never be ever.The magnificiency of the amrit lives forever.As one joins the naatural creation of God and lives by the principles of nature.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: sienna">"i want to stress i would love to take amrit but im not sure even the panj pyares who give amrit are living a maryada which guru gobind singh stressed(just because of ignorance). so when there is no real khalsa(who has maryada of guru gobind singh) how can there be real amrit". </span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>When Guru JI asked for five heads, he did not check their back ground to see if they were real Singhs or not.I think, I would say you are trying to make deals/excuses here, so that your getting out of the situation can be justified by the faults of others.Forgive me for saying that.</p><p> </p><p>Sikhi is NOT about finding faults of others, but sharing our own faults with Gurbani and learning to correct that; and share the correction with the Gurmukhs who come the path of Sikhi.Here, you are also questioning the amrit given by the Guru through HIS process, by blaming the others of their own short commings, I regret to say.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: sienna">"what i have concluded is that i should stick to guru granth sahib and its teachings and accept granth as my guru and that would solve the purpose for me hopefully i reach to God in this lifetime if not at least i have started the journey."</span></p><p> </p><p>There is absolutely nothing that should stop you doing just that.But, I am confident as you begin to understand and take heed of the Guru Granth sahib, you will want to increase your own commitment.For the moment I would not worry about that.I have absolute faith that...it will come in time, as it came to me.Taking amrit is not a child's play, nor a game.It takes time,and it is harder still in these times when there are so many worldly attractions freely available.</p><p> </p><p>In those days, Sikhs had to survive for the cause of the righteous and humanity; so committing to the Guru sahib on one simple principle was easy,though costly in terms of sacrifce and blood; but today, when self sacrifice and blood and head is less costly and not even asked;with the materialistic wealth and other attractions and the need to be accepted makes the challenging to be an amritdahri Sikh harder; but believe me it is more fulfilling than one thinks and more satisfying than we all will ever realise.Only that takes and adheres feels the contentment and joy, not another.</p><p> </p><p>I would have offered you the qoutes from the Guru Granth sahib to show that it is all in there, but I have refrained from using Gurbani to push for points.</p><p> </p><p>I would look forward to a reply from you supporting all that you have claimed, otherwise like many other times, I have noted , we will be just beating about the bush.</p><p> </p><p>The taking of amrit means one completes the WHOLE journey of the Sikh faith, is the final line I have to say, the teachings of the Guru Granth sahib.Sikhi does not end in parts, it comes in parts but ends as a whole, that is something we must always remember.We also cannot be selective with the parts that suit us and claim we have achieved the ultimate final in Sikh form and faith and commitment to the Guru Granth sahib, without the end of it together.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'WebAkharThick'">ANkhi roop dastaar da vekhNa je,Singh ChaRkh khrian de utte charrde vekho.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'WebAkharThick'">Gurcharan Singh, Kulim,</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'WebAkharThick'">London & Kuala Lumpur</span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Sada sara Ithas dastar da a, veri sda hi sanu wangaarde rahe</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Kedah.svg" target="_blank"><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Flag_of_Kedah.svg/250px-Flag_of_Kedah.svg.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaan Pardesi, post: 134799, member: 7047"] Dear MSBaath, Very Interesting question.But along with it you have also raised many points, the value of which perhaps you did not really understand, nor you have explained with convincing evidence.You have mentioned many issues, but it appears many of them are based upon a lot of heresay that you have assumed to be facts. For my own clarity, I would ask you to clarify some of those issues so that we can arrive at a sensible conclusion, it would be helpful to all. Let us try and take some of them and make sense. You say :- [COLOR=sienna]"i mean there is so much confusion about maryada, the present sgpc which claims itself a rightful heir to akaal takht came into existence in 1900s, and they made a maryada depending on the scholars of that time which cannot be the correct maryada".[/COLOR] Can you please qualify the above statement, with factual evidence.I certainly would not rule out that many detractors of the Panth do use these aimless and unfounded arguments to undermine the Sikh faith. The present SGPC is an elected and registered legal body of the Sikhs and and has been representative of majority in the Sikh panth at any given time.It was seen necessary to have this body in 1900s due to the politicalisation of communities in the Punjab.It is elected legally through a recognised process.Its poor and weak and politicalised functioning currently cannot be associated with its rightful entity and place.The poor and weak functioning is altogether a different matter.It does NOT claim any heirship to the Akal Takhat.It is duty bound to look after the Akal Takhat and affairs of certain specified Sikh Gurduaras within the Punjab;it also includes the same gurduaras that are now in Haryana, and Himcahal Pradesh.It is a soceity that the whole panth agitated for many years through the morchas/ agitation against the british colonial government. The maryada was NOT dependent upon the scholars.But Guru Granth sahib, and supported from evidence in the original Rehatnamas, compiled by the contemporaries of Guru Gobind Singh Ji;proven precedents and historical practices and finally the factual history.That is FOUR points of sources that are not influenced by anyone, scholar or not a scholar.Views and scholars were invited from all over the Sikh world; not simply a "few".But these had to work within the context of the Four points of sources.This process took nearly 18 years to formulate, check and counter check before finally the final copy of the propsed draft was seen fit to be published as the FINAL document. Anything based upon the Gurbani of Guru Granth sahib cannot be inaccurate nor change between then and now or in time to come.THIS IS BANI recorded by the Guru Sahiban in Guru Granth sahib by themselves.Not a word has been changed.Whether it is scholar NOW or then, the interpretation of Gurbani is the same, will be the same and remain so.Some language used to describe something in layman's terms may change.But the principles anchored would be the same as when it was revealed by the Gurus and now. Following continuous digression of practices by all types in management of Sikh Gurduaras and affairs, it was seen necessary to have a standard uniformed practice [Maryada]so that no further mahant type scenarios could develop and damage the Sikh religion and sangats.Such negative and derogatory onslaughts were seen from the arya smajist, Nirankaris, and the derawaad type babas and not to exclude islam and others like the christians. My question to you is again, WHAT makes YOU think that is it not "[COLOR=sienna]the correct maryada?"[/COLOR]A simple claim like that does not qualify anything and is evidently devoid of any substantial fact material.Very much, it is heresay fuel,like the unknown leading the unknowing. [COLOR=sienna]"i believe, so whats the point in following such a maryada which doesnot come directly from the guru."[/COLOR] To follow a organisation/society / group one has to have an uniform and values, as such these are SIKH VALUES decided collectively by the Panth- the wholesome of the Sikh society.The core values that support these are in the Guru Granth sahib.They do come from the Guru Ji.The few ppeople who have read a little of the Guru Granth keep making such superficial claims that it is not in the Guru Granth sahib.If one reads carefully fully, it is all there.Incidently, some is in the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji as well. To begin with,I suggest read the Sarb Loh Granth-Guru Gobind Singh says;- THE KHALSA IS MY PARAMOUNT IMAGE, IN THE KHALSA EVER RESIDES MY SPIRIT. THE KHALSA IS MY BELOVED AND VENERABLE MASTER THE KHALSA IS MY DIVINE PROTECTOR THE KHALSA IS MY BODY AND SOUL THE KHALSA IS THE EMBODIMENT OF THE TRUE AND PERFECT GURU THE KHALSA IS MY GALLANT ANG KNIGHTLY FRIEND, I HAVE STATED THE TRUTH WITHOUT AN IOTA OF MISCONSTRUCTION, GOD AND GURU NANAK ARE TO THIS MY WITNESSES THE KHALSA IS MY FATHER AND MOTHER Try understanding that.The zeal, power, the magic and electrifying blood chilling message is very loud and clear.But people who have never read the the writings of Guru Gobind Singh, with the insight and linguistic equipment it requires, not only misinterpet these powerfully sustaning words and writings but degrade themselves by exposing their own shallow knowledge , simply good enough to ridicule the Guru and their teachings! [COLOR=sienna]"besides guru gobind singh ji gave the gaddi to guru granth sahib and it conains no reference to maryada all guru granth sahib stresses is to jap naam and live a righeous living."[/COLOR] That is not all that the Guru Ji says.I am afraid you have conveniently skipped the rest and concentrated on 0.1% of the Guru Granth sahib and make a sweeping statement ;shows one is being selective and not facing the reallity.When Guru Gobind Singh ji offered the GurGaddi to the Guru Granth sahib, he followed a maryada that was sat out by the preceeding Gurus.He offered, a narial and few other offerings,and bowed down- was part of a maryada.He read certain banis while preparing the amrit is part of that maryada that he sat out.He sat out the bana, and bani, and the Five kakaars as part of a definte maryada.So, it is erroneous to claim that he did not sat out maryada.This is a historic precedent and supported by the rehatnamas and his own bani. [COLOR=sienna]"karam kaands were criticised by guru nanak dont u think taking amrit is reduced to a mere karam kaand." [/COLOR] Yes, in current times, some of the amrit practices have been reduced to more than a ritual.But that is the current mentality of Sikhs, not the fault actions of the Amrit as sat out by the Guru sahib.The moral, and ethical standards of many have fallen and become politicised.Some babas now claim their various amrit sanchaars better then the next.That is wrong.But that does not make the amrit as sat out to be adhered to be wrong and a karam kaand.These days many believe strongly sticking some used bottles filled with water [perhaps of alcohol; coke and other drugs]under the Guru Granth sahib for a few hours turns that into "amrit"!Gurmukh Loko, that is NOT amrit.The real amrit came at the price of five heads.A Sikh ready to take amrit must offer his whole to the Guru Ji. If an amritdhari were to follow the noble principles and take amrit, that is not a karam kaand.It will never be ever.The magnificiency of the amrit lives forever.As one joins the naatural creation of God and lives by the principles of nature. [COLOR=sienna]"i want to stress i would love to take amrit but im not sure even the panj pyares who give amrit are living a maryada which guru gobind singh stressed(just because of ignorance). so when there is no real khalsa(who has maryada of guru gobind singh) how can there be real amrit". [/COLOR] When Guru JI asked for five heads, he did not check their back ground to see if they were real Singhs or not.I think, I would say you are trying to make deals/excuses here, so that your getting out of the situation can be justified by the faults of others.Forgive me for saying that. Sikhi is NOT about finding faults of others, but sharing our own faults with Gurbani and learning to correct that; and share the correction with the Gurmukhs who come the path of Sikhi.Here, you are also questioning the amrit given by the Guru through HIS process, by blaming the others of their own short commings, I regret to say. [COLOR=sienna]"what i have concluded is that i should stick to guru granth sahib and its teachings and accept granth as my guru and that would solve the purpose for me hopefully i reach to God in this lifetime if not at least i have started the journey."[/COLOR] There is absolutely nothing that should stop you doing just that.But, I am confident as you begin to understand and take heed of the Guru Granth sahib, you will want to increase your own commitment.For the moment I would not worry about that.I have absolute faith that...it will come in time, as it came to me.Taking amrit is not a child's play, nor a game.It takes time,and it is harder still in these times when there are so many worldly attractions freely available. In those days, Sikhs had to survive for the cause of the righteous and humanity; so committing to the Guru sahib on one simple principle was easy,though costly in terms of sacrifce and blood; but today, when self sacrifice and blood and head is less costly and not even asked;with the materialistic wealth and other attractions and the need to be accepted makes the challenging to be an amritdahri Sikh harder; but believe me it is more fulfilling than one thinks and more satisfying than we all will ever realise.Only that takes and adheres feels the contentment and joy, not another. I would have offered you the qoutes from the Guru Granth sahib to show that it is all in there, but I have refrained from using Gurbani to push for points. I would look forward to a reply from you supporting all that you have claimed, otherwise like many other times, I have noted , we will be just beating about the bush. The taking of amrit means one completes the WHOLE journey of the Sikh faith, is the final line I have to say, the teachings of the Guru Granth sahib.Sikhi does not end in parts, it comes in parts but ends as a whole, that is something we must always remember.We also cannot be selective with the parts that suit us and claim we have achieved the ultimate final in Sikh form and faith and commitment to the Guru Granth sahib, without the end of it together. [FONT=WebAkharThick][/FONT] [FONT=WebAkharThick]ANkhi roop dastaar da vekhNa je,Singh ChaRkh khrian de utte charrde vekho.[/FONT] [FONT=WebAkharThick]Gurcharan Singh, Kulim,[/FONT] [FONT=WebAkharThick]London & Kuala Lumpur[/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Sada sara Ithas dastar da a, veri sda hi sanu wangaarde rahe[/FONT] [FONT=Arial][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Kedah.svg"][IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Flag_of_Kedah.svg/250px-Flag_of_Kedah.svg.png[/IMG][/URL][/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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