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Gurbani (14-53)
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Gurbani (660-685)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
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Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
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Gurbani (721-727)
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Gurbani (728-750)
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Gurbani (795-831)
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Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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How McLeod Became “one Of The Foremost Scholars” Of Sikh Studies?
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<blockquote data-quote="Randip Singh" data-source="post: 84577" data-attributes="member: 1323"><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">All masands were in effect were revenue collectors, and these Masands came from many different castes. There is NO doubt that at the time of the 6th Guru there were some Jatts within the Sikh fold, but they were not a majority. The Golden era of Jatts and Sikhi came later after the demise of the 10th Master and the demise of Bandha Bahadhur. It was the Jatts who carried the Sikh torch.</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">I am not sure so I cannot comment. I here all sorts of stories from from relatives on how they came to be in Punjab. One claimed that their family was decented from Siva’s locks (Jatta) but I digress.</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">There were a lot of Jatts in the vicinity, no doubt about that, but what I am stating is that the time frame for entry into Sikhi for Jatts en masse was later than Mcleod stated.</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Let us take all my quotes:</span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Pg 143 - Follower of The Bandha</span></span></strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span><em><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">A large number of persons belonging to the class of sweepers and tanners, and the community of <u>banjaras and other base of lowly castes</u>, assembled around him and became his disciple. The persons gave him the title of "Fat'h Shah</span></span></em><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">"</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">This states that that the followers of Bandha were banjaras and low castes. So if the Jatts had been around en-masse in Sikhi since the 6th Master they would have been mentioned here. They are not.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">pg 163-2 - Bandha Bahadhurs Followers </span></span></strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span><em><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">he (Bandha) in a very short time completed the building of a stone fort of great strength at the foot of the Siwalik Hills near Shahdaura (Sadhaura), of which he had laid the foundations. He made the fort his seat, and sent his officials to administer every city and village far and near.</span></span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Strange it was how through God decreed fate, the courage and bravery of the inhabitants of those places had departed<u>. If a lowly sweeper or cobbler (chamar), more impure than whom there is no caste (qaum) in Hindustan, went to attend on that rebel, he would be appointed to govern his own town and would return with an order (sanad) of office of government in his hand</u>. The moment he stepped into the territory, or town, or village, all the gentry and notables went out to receive him, and after his alightining at his house, stood with folded hands before him. Since that man of low nature would have information about the real condition of all houses, what unprecedented impositions did they not inflict on the better-places persons of that place and what cruelty did they not invent! No Hindu or Muslim could have the power to see, or hear of, such cruelty. He (the official sent by Banda) would demand whatever precious goods were in anyone's house and deposit it in the ill-destined treasury of the Guru. No person could oppose his orders. Such is the power of Almighty that in the twinkling of an eye He can put such a lowly person in authority over a whole world of the high-born in such a manner that so many thousands of persons who had displayed bravery in so many manly contests, became help, became helpless and lost even the courage to speak in front of that single man</span></span></em></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em>Here the author states that Bandha’s administrators were Chamars. If the Jatts were already in Sikhi en-masse the author would have stated Bandha has appointed Jatts. He does not.</em></span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Pp 671-2</span></span></strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span><em><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Although from lower castes of Hindu's countless people like ants and locusts had gathered round him (Bandha) and lost no time in getting killed or coming into battle for his sake, yet they did not harm such Hindu's of high status as Khatri's of the Punjab, who were colluding in the plans and designs of that rebel (Bandha) or the <u>Jats, famous for their bravery, who were supporting and joining the army of that doomed one</u></span></span></em></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em>Look at the time frame now. Jatts start joining Bandha. The author would have stated that the Jatts were leading and key not colluding and joining.</em></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em>See my point? What I am saying is that if Jatts were there en-masse from the start by the time of Bandha Bahadhur they would be mentioned as being with Bandha en-masse. They are not.</em></span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"> </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">You are missing the point. Up until Khandhay dha Pahul, Sikhism was seen by Hindu’s and Hinduism (albeit a sect), when they saw that Khandhay dha Pahul was actually creating a different faith and terms such as “brotherhood” were being used it was unacceptable. Ok, it may have been acceptable and sit next to a low caste in a communual kitchen, but sharing Amrit from the same bowl was too much. So when analysing this point, we must keep things in historical context.</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"> </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">They were there in small numbers. There is NO evidence to state they were there en masse.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Evidence that contradicts this is:</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Sikh History From Persian Sources</span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Varan Bhai Gurdas</span></span></p><p>Jagjit Singh - <a href="http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/" target="_blank">http://www.globalsikhstudies.net</a> <span style="font-size: 12px">Jagjit Singh</span><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">. The </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong>Jats</strong></span><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"> and </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong>Sikh militarization</strong></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"> </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">The Masand point is erroneous and irrelevant. Jatts made up one portion of the masands. Masands were from many different castes. Many were Khatri’s whom tried to revert back to Hinduism, hence their abolition by the 10th Master.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">100 names of leading SIKH’s. You cannot just dismiss this document my friend. This recalls the names of people of importance at that time. If Jatts were a majority they would have been mentioned. They are not.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'"> </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Dabistan e Mazhib actually does not confirm that Jatts were in a majority in Sikhism. If you speak to any of my relatives they would make people belive that Jatts started Sikhism, and when I present the facts they get a bit upset.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Just because Jatts were surrounding an area, does not mean they took to the religion. Jesus started Christianity with a few Jews in Jerusalem, and was surrounded by Jews, yet most Christian did not come from the Jews. So one point does not follow the other.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Baburnama does not make any comments on Sikhs.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">Jatts may have been a majority in the area, but their entry into Sikhi en masse was around the 18th and 19th Century:</span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">An Account of the <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> 1808 - Imadu's Sa'adat by Saiyad Ghulam Ali Khan Naqavi (completed 1808)</span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">page 214 Chapter 19 - <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> History From Persian Sources</span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">pp 70-71 Short Account of the Genesis of the Sect of Sikhs in Hindustan</span></span></strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span><em><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Completely moving away from their path of God-worship, the Sikhs began to devote all their courage to conquest of the country, the pillage of the cities and districts (parganas) and highway robbery. Although in the time of Tegh Bahadhur thay had taken to these ways, there was not then this much of tumult. Finally, now (1808 AD) the whole country of the Punjab up to the Attock River (Indus), and this side up to Multan, and from the banks of the Sutlej to Karnal, outside the Punjab, which (i.e. Karnal) is forty seven Kurohs (kurohs or kos = 2.5 miles) distant from Shahjahanabad (Delhi), all of it, is in the possession of this sect. Their leaders of high dignity are mostly from the lower classes, such as carpenters, shoemakers and Jats. They are the enemy to the hookhah-smoker, but take pot after pot of hemp (bang = Bhang)</span></span></em></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Here is the composition of Sikhs in 1808:</span></span><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">An Account of the <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> 1808 - Imadu's Sa'adat by Saiyad Ghulam Ali Khan Naqavi (completed 1808)</span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">page 214 Chapter 19 - <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> History From Persian Sources</span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">pp 70-71 Short Account of the Genesis of the Sect of Sikhs in Hindustan</span></span></strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span><em><span style="color: #000002"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Completely moving away from their path of God-worship, the Sikhs began to devote all their courage to conquest of the country, the pillage of the cities and districts (parganas) and highway robbery. Although in the time of Tegh Bahadhur thay had taken to these ways, there was not then this much of tumult. Finally, now (1808 AD) the whole country of the Punjab up to the Attock River (Indus), and this side up to Multan, and from the banks of the Sutlej to Karnal, outside the Punjab, which (i.e. Karnal) is forty seven Kurohs (kurohs or kos = 2.5 miles) distant from Shahjahanabad (Delhi), all of it, is in the possession of this sect. Their leaders of high dignity are mostly from the lower classes, such as carpenters, shoemakers and Jats. They are the enemy to the hookhah-smoker, but take pot after pot of hemp (bang = Bhang)</span></span></em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Randip Singh, post: 84577, member: 1323"] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]All masands were in effect were revenue collectors, and these Masands came from many different castes. There is NO doubt that at the time of the 6th Guru there were some Jatts within the Sikh fold, but they were not a majority. The Golden era of Jatts and Sikhi came later after the demise of the 10th Master and the demise of Bandha Bahadhur. It was the Jatts who carried the Sikh torch.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]I am not sure so I cannot comment. I here all sorts of stories from from relatives on how they came to be in Punjab. One claimed that their family was decented from Siva’s locks (Jatta) but I digress.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]There were a lot of Jatts in the vicinity, no doubt about that, but what I am stating is that the time frame for entry into Sikhi for Jatts en masse was later than Mcleod stated.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Let us take all my quotes:[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]Pg 143 - Follower of The Bandha[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]A large number of persons belonging to the class of sweepers and tanners, and the community of [U]banjaras and other base of lowly castes[/U], assembled around him and became his disciple. The persons gave him the title of "Fat'h Shah[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]"[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]This states that that the followers of Bandha were banjaras and low castes. So if the Jatts had been around en-masse in Sikhi since the 6th Master they would have been mentioned here. They are not.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]pg 163-2 - Bandha Bahadhurs Followers [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]he (Bandha) in a very short time completed the building of a stone fort of great strength at the foot of the Siwalik Hills near Shahdaura (Sadhaura), of which he had laid the foundations. He made the fort his seat, and sent his officials to administer every city and village far and near. Strange it was how through God decreed fate, the courage and bravery of the inhabitants of those places had departed[U]. If a lowly sweeper or cobbler (chamar), more impure than whom there is no caste (qaum) in Hindustan, went to attend on that rebel, he would be appointed to govern his own town and would return with an order (sanad) of office of government in his hand[/U]. The moment he stepped into the territory, or town, or village, all the gentry and notables went out to receive him, and after his alightining at his house, stood with folded hands before him. Since that man of low nature would have information about the real condition of all houses, what unprecedented impositions did they not inflict on the better-places persons of that place and what cruelty did they not invent! No Hindu or Muslim could have the power to see, or hear of, such cruelty. He (the official sent by Banda) would demand whatever precious goods were in anyone's house and deposit it in the ill-destined treasury of the Guru. No person could oppose his orders. Such is the power of Almighty that in the twinkling of an eye He can put such a lowly person in authority over a whole world of the high-born in such a manner that so many thousands of persons who had displayed bravery in so many manly contests, became help, became helpless and lost even the courage to speak in front of that single man[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana][I]Here the author states that Bandha’s administrators were Chamars. If the Jatts were already in Sikhi en-masse the author would have stated Bandha has appointed Jatts. He does not.[/I][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana][I] [/I][/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]Pp 671-2[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]Although from lower castes of Hindu's countless people like ants and locusts had gathered round him (Bandha) and lost no time in getting killed or coming into battle for his sake, yet they did not harm such Hindu's of high status as Khatri's of the Punjab, who were colluding in the plans and designs of that rebel (Bandha) or the [U]Jats, famous for their bravery, who were supporting and joining the army of that doomed one[/U][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][U][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][/U][/I] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana][I]Look at the time frame now. Jatts start joining Bandha. The author would have stated that the Jatts were leading and key not colluding and joining.[/I][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana][I] [/I][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana][I]See my point? What I am saying is that if Jatts were there en-masse from the start by the time of Bandha Bahadhur they would be mentioned as being with Bandha en-masse. They are not.[/I][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]You are missing the point. Up until Khandhay dha Pahul, Sikhism was seen by Hindu’s and Hinduism (albeit a sect), when they saw that Khandhay dha Pahul was actually creating a different faith and terms such as “brotherhood” were being used it was unacceptable. Ok, it may have been acceptable and sit next to a low caste in a communual kitchen, but sharing Amrit from the same bowl was too much. So when analysing this point, we must keep things in historical context.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]They were there in small numbers. There is NO evidence to state they were there en masse.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Evidence that contradicts this is:[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Sikh History From Persian Sources[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Varan Bhai Gurdas[/FONT][/COLOR] Jagjit Singh - [URL="http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/"]http://www.globalsikhstudies.net[/URL] [SIZE=3]Jagjit Singh[/SIZE][SIZE=3][B][FONT=Arial]. The [/FONT][/B][FONT=Arial][B]Jats[/B][/FONT][B][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][/B][FONT=Arial][B]Sikh militarization[/B][/FONT][B][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]The Masand point is erroneous and irrelevant. Jatts made up one portion of the masands. Masands were from many different castes. Many were Khatri’s whom tried to revert back to Hinduism, hence their abolition by the 10th Master.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]100 names of leading SIKH’s. You cannot just dismiss this document my friend. This recalls the names of people of importance at that time. If Jatts were a majority they would have been mentioned. They are not.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Dabistan e Mazhib actually does not confirm that Jatts were in a majority in Sikhism. If you speak to any of my relatives they would make people belive that Jatts started Sikhism, and when I present the facts they get a bit upset.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Just because Jatts were surrounding an area, does not mean they took to the religion. Jesus started Christianity with a few Jews in Jerusalem, and was surrounded by Jews, yet most Christian did not come from the Jews. So one point does not follow the other.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Baburnama does not make any comments on Sikhs.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma]Jatts may have been a majority in the area, but their entry into Sikhi en masse was around the 18th and 19th Century:[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma] [/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]An Account of the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] 1808 - Imadu's Sa'adat by Saiyad Ghulam Ali Khan Naqavi (completed 1808) page 214 Chapter 19 - [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] History From Persian Sources pp 70-71 Short Account of the Genesis of the Sect of Sikhs in Hindustan[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]Completely moving away from their path of God-worship, the Sikhs began to devote all their courage to conquest of the country, the pillage of the cities and districts (parganas) and highway robbery. Although in the time of Tegh Bahadhur thay had taken to these ways, there was not then this much of tumult. Finally, now (1808 AD) the whole country of the Punjab up to the Attock River (Indus), and this side up to Multan, and from the banks of the Sutlej to Karnal, outside the Punjab, which (i.e. Karnal) is forty seven Kurohs (kurohs or kos = 2.5 miles) distant from Shahjahanabad (Delhi), all of it, is in the possession of this sect. Their leaders of high dignity are mostly from the lower classes, such as carpenters, shoemakers and Jats. They are the enemy to the hookhah-smoker, but take pot after pot of hemp (bang = Bhang)[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]Here is the composition of Sikhs in 1808:[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]An Account of the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] 1808 - Imadu's Sa'adat by Saiyad Ghulam Ali Khan Naqavi (completed 1808) page 214 Chapter 19 - [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] History From Persian Sources pp 70-71 Short Account of the Genesis of the Sect of Sikhs in Hindustan[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#000002][FONT=Verdana]Completely moving away from their path of God-worship, the Sikhs began to devote all their courage to conquest of the country, the pillage of the cities and districts (parganas) and highway robbery. Although in the time of Tegh Bahadhur thay had taken to these ways, there was not then this much of tumult. Finally, now (1808 AD) the whole country of the Punjab up to the Attock River (Indus), and this side up to Multan, and from the banks of the Sutlej to Karnal, outside the Punjab, which (i.e. Karnal) is forty seven Kurohs (kurohs or kos = 2.5 miles) distant from Shahjahanabad (Delhi), all of it, is in the possession of this sect. Their leaders of high dignity are mostly from the lower classes, such as carpenters, shoemakers and Jats. They are the enemy to the hookhah-smoker, but take pot after pot of hemp (bang = Bhang)[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [/QUOTE]
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