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ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
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Gurbani (1197-1200)
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Gurbani (1254-1293)
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Gurbani (1294-96)
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Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
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Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
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Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Hard Talk
Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate
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<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 76258" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">SPN Sangat ji, here are questions put by KA, they were copied by aad0002 ji and posted on SPN</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I am trying to answer all of them. To me, KA has not very much to question save for howling over insignificant points.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')</span></span></strong></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA.</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I haven’t understood it. </span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Sri Amritsar Ishnan</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit.</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">The name of the city is Amritsar, so what if the water of the srovar is called amrit. It doesn’t do any miracle. Why to argue about it. What KA is trying to say? It is a meaningless statement.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Washing our Feet</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">What is wrong with that either, it is actually not a ritual, water is there if some one feels to wash feet ok otherwise no body is making is mandatory ritual or forcing you to do that. People in Punjab who wear Chappals, love that. Again it is a pointless point though.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Amrit Vela</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states how you can call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">KA as he boasts about being a Sikh in real sense( because he thinks others are gone strayed), how can he question Gurbani statement? Very early morning when people get up to be ready for the day, are advised by Guru ji to praise the Creator and have HIS memory in mind so that nothing should influence them but HIM. Amrit word is used to call it pious time. It can change as per people’s situation. What is going on the world has nothing to do with the individual who is getting ready to start his/her day. KA is just splitting hairs, no reasonable point to be discussed here too.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Bhai Veer Singh Ji</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">What was the context?</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs).</span></span></span></li> </ul><p><strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">What did Bhai Veer Singh ji lie</span></span></strong><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">?</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Amritsar</span></strong><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> Sarovar</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai||</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I agree; however, Sikhs who take bath in Srovar do really believe they are going to be liberated. If they do, I wonder!</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">What does matter? This question is entirely historical, if he is historian, he should give evidence. People pay tributes who laid their lives for a noble cause. How can it be a idol worshipping? Why didn’t he ask Indian Government which brings many leaders from the world to Mr.Gandhi”s smadhi to bow there where most probably is nothing save for bricks! </span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Here again he has to come with historical evidence to prove that Guru didn’t take amrit from Panj Pyare, it is well known in the available history. I took amrit they didn’t say any of the above statements. If some say, why is he questioning the entire Sikh community?</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans). </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Before questioning Sant Bhindrawala’ intentions , he should also answer who did bring Sant ji to the front line against Akali Dal? Answer is” Congress”. When he refused to dance to the tune of Congress, it made him a target. What about Rajeev Gandhi and his Gundas who openly carried out genocide against the Sikhs, they were not fortifying any Gurdawara? To question Sant Bhindrawala, a lot of history needs to be read. KA’s mere statements carry no weight; actually they prove the guy is biased against Sant Bhindrawala.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Can he support his statement with solid historical evidence, if not, how can he even say that. Amrit with patase or without patasse doesn’t make any difference, still it is amrit used for a pious ceremony.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">While preparing amrit, path of bani is done just to create atmosphere for the ceremony, what is wrong with that? What are his suggestions? I want to know if he comes up with better options</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.</span></span></span></li> </ul><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">He should support it with historical facts. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners) </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">If some one is questioning ritualism in Sikhism, how come guy criticizes the entire community? He himself took amrit, it makes him anritdhari too. Good or bad people are in every community why only amritdhari are attacked? Tha behaviour says it all.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Any reasonable person will never make such a statement based on a guess rather than on facts . Avalanche of liberalized media, drug trade and other factors took the youth away from basic principles of Sikhi not the reasons he gives in here.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Amrit & Naam</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">How? Amrit word is used in a pious context, it is used for HIS Name, Gurbani Simran which is all about Him, and how it can be called Brahmanvaad? When Guru ji used this word for a pious context, why is it wrong if used for a pious ceremony? </span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">That Guru Waak is used to show how Baba Deep Singh did what he was taught by Guru ji. I feel it is mere a symbol. That is all. Why should it even bother any one?</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I am not aware of it.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Charan-Amrit</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">It was used to militarize the Sikhs, there was a ceremony for psychological need just as an oath is taken. There was another revolution against caste system, to declare it madness and disregard it; amrit was given from the same pot to all regardless their castes. I think was/is wonderful. What is wrong with this? </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella) </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Already I commented on this.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Panj Piaray & Amritdharis</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">One single example <strong>needs not to be generalized</strong> . It sounds very <strong>immature</strong> statement.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Anand-Karj</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals.</span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">How? What is the best he offers, it was a mere ceremony just against prevailing ones </span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Bhai Randhir Singh</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans) </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I am not aware of it.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I am not aware of this too.</span></span></span></span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief. </span></span></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">As stated earlier, it was a pious ceremony, while it takes place, Gurbani chanting creates atmosphere. What does he sugges instead of that? To keep gossiping, slandering, and boasting during that time,will it help better! Obviously guy is just splitting hair with no logic. KA himself went through an oath while taking job in Punjab Police. Why didn’t he dare to refuse it by saying it is just a ritual carrying no meaning? After all by merely reading an oath will not change the mind of the person if he doesn’t believe it. It just surprises me how people just come up with <strong>ridiculous questionings</strong>.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #5b5b5b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 76258, member: 5889"] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana] [B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]SPN Sangat ji, here are questions put by KA, they were copied by aad0002 ji and posted on SPN[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]I am trying to answer all of them. To me, KA has not very much to question save for howling over insignificant points.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]Kala Afghana's (KA) views on different issues (taken from 'Bipran ki Reet to Sach da Marg')[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Bhog & Guru Granth Sahib[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: Doing bhog of Deg in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is manmat according to KA.[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]I haven’t understood it. [/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Sri Amritsar Ishnan[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit.[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]The name of the city is Amritsar, so what if the water of the srovar is called amrit. It doesn’t do any miracle. Why to argue about it. What KA is trying to say? It is a meaningless statement.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Washing our Feet[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA criticizes the practice of washing our feet before entering Darbar Sahib or our Gurduara Sahibs. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]What is wrong with that either, it is actually not a ritual, water is there if some one feels to wash feet ok otherwise no body is making is mandatory ritual or forcing you to do that. People in Punjab who wear Chappals, love that. Again it is a pointless point though.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Amrit Vela[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states how you can call a particular time of the day Amrit-Vela when so many evil things happen around the world at that time. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]KA as he boasts about being a Sikh in real sense( because he thinks others are gone strayed), how can he question Gurbani statement? Very early morning when people get up to be ready for the day, are advised by Guru ji to praise the Creator and have HIS memory in mind so that nothing should influence them but HIM. Amrit word is used to call it pious time. It can change as per people’s situation. What is going on the world has nothing to do with the individual who is getting ready to start his/her day. KA is just splitting hairs, no reasonable point to be discussed here too.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Bhai Veer Singh Ji[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA criticizes Bhai Veer Singh Ji for making anti-Gurmat statements expresses disappointment about his works. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]What was the context?[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Bhai Veer Singh Ji, Baba Sri Chand Ji[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA accuses Bhai Veer Singh Ji of lying about Baba Sri Chand Ji, and refers to such writers as "Sikhi day Vayree" (enemies of the Sikhs).[/FONT][/LIST][B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]What did Bhai Veer Singh ji lie[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]?[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Amritsar[/FONT][/B][B][FONT=Verdana] Sarovar[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA implies that there is no basis behind the belief that partaking ishnan in Amritsar sarovar will wash away one's sins. He states that it has nothing to do whatsoever with the Gurbani verse : "RamDaas Sarova Natai || Sabh Utray Pap Kamatai||[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]I agree; however, Sikhs who take bath in Srovar do really believe they are going to be liberated. If they do, I wonder![/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Baba Deep Singh Ji's memorial[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA argues against the need for a memorial for Baba Deep Singh Ji where Baba Ji's severed was laid to rest. He refers to this as idol worship. He questions even whether Baba Ji's severed head had fell at that particular place.[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]What does matter? This question is entirely historical, if he is historian, he should give evidence. People pay tributes who laid their lives for a noble cause. How can it be a idol worshipping? Why didn’t he ask Indian Government which brings many leaders from the world to Mr.Gandhi”s smadhi to bow there where most probably is nothing save for bricks! [/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA questions the historical reference that (1)Amrit could revive the dead (the Panj Piarays).(2)Amrit could rid one of previous sins.(3)He states that this kind of belief will convince an Amritdharee to committ further sins.(4)He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella)(5)KA states that the reference to Guru Gobind Singh of reviving the Panj Piyarays after cutting their "sees" are pure lies. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]Here again he has to come with historical evidence to prove that Guru didn’t take amrit from Panj Pyare, it is well known in the available history. I took amrit they didn’t say any of the above statements. If some say, why is he questioning the entire Sikh community?[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states that Baba Jarnail Singh Ji committed acts that brought about the current downfall of the Panth. Baba Jarnail Singh Ji desecrated Sri Darbar Sahib when defended and fortified it. By giving shastars and motorcycles to the Sikh youth, he (Baba Jarnail Singh) made us into murderers and robbers (dakoos). KA states that even after Baba Harnam Singh also joined in, their Panthic wishes were never fullfilled. He questions their sincerity and wonders if they were are all "bhekhee" (charlatans). [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]Before questioning Sant Bhindrawala’ intentions , he should also answer who did bring Sant ji to the front line against Akali Dal? Answer is” Congress”. When he refused to dance to the tune of Congress, it made him a target. What about Rajeev Gandhi and his Gundas who openly carried out genocide against the Sikhs, they were not fortifying any Gurdawara? To question Sant Bhindrawala, a lot of history needs to be read. KA’s mere statements carry no weight; actually they prove the guy is biased against Sant Bhindrawala.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Khanday-Batay da Amrit & Sweet Pittasay[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states that to consider that sweet Pittasay were to be used in preparation of Amrit is a maha-Paap (enormous sin) since it implies that : (1) Dasam Patshah must have understood Naam-Amrit to be bitter. (2) Dasam Patshah had forgotten the Pittasay and his mistake was corrected by Mata Jito Jee. States that this Pittasay eposide is a myth and was made up by the enemies of this faith. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]Can he support his statement with solid historical evidence, if not, how can he even say that. Amrit with patase or without patasse doesn’t make any difference, still it is amrit used for a pious ceremony.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 3 Banees of Dasam Patshah[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA ridicules reference to Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees recited during Amrit-Sanchar. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]While preparing amrit, path of bani is done just to create atmosphere for the ceremony, what is wrong with that? What are his suggestions? I want to know if he comes up with better options[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & 5 Banees[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states only the Banees in Guru Granth Sahib were part of the Amrit-Sanchar ceremony. To consider that other three (Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay, and Chaupai Sahib as Banees) were read by the Guru Gobind Singh Ji is utterly direspectful to our SatGurus.[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]He should support it with historical facts. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piyaray & Shakti[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA ridicules the concept of Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & reviving of the Panj Piaray & the divine powers (Shakti) of Amrit. He also referrs to Amrit-dharees as "Papian di Santaan" (offspring of sinners) [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]If some one is questioning ritualism in Sikhism, how come guy criticizes the entire community? He himself took amrit, it makes him anritdhari too. Good or bad people are in every community why only amritdhari are attacked? Tha behaviour says it all.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit & Patits[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states that was responsible for making Sikh children cut their Kes, smoke tobacco, and become Patits. States that for Sikhs, becoming a Singh is a "bharm" (superstition) of the mind. He also states that those who consider Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit as becoming "Guru-waley" (inititation into Sikhism) are mistaken. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]Any reasonable person will never make such a statement based on a guess rather than on facts . Avalanche of liberalized media, drug trade and other factors took the youth away from basic principles of Sikhi not the reasons he gives in here.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Amrit & Naam[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states that calling Amrit Naam is BrahmanVaad[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]How? Amrit word is used in a pious context, it is used for HIS Name, Gurbani Simran which is all about Him, and how it can be called Brahmanvaad? When Guru ji used this word for a pious context, why is it wrong if used for a pious ceremony? [/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Jao Tao Premo Khellan… & Baba Deep Singh[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA ridicules the use of this tuk in reference to Baba Deep Singh deed of fighting with his sis on his palm.[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]That Guru Waak is used to show how Baba Deep Singh did what he was taught by Guru ji. I feel it is mere a symbol. That is all. Why should it even bother any one?[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Adultery & Bhai Randhir Singh[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA states that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote that Adultery was allowed in the Rahit. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]I am not aware of it.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Charan-Amrit[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA ridicules that Sikh tradition of Charan-Amrit that existed until Khanday-Batay-da-Amrit replaced it in 1699. He refers to it as a Brahmanic ritual. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]It was used to militarize the Sikhs, there was a ceremony for psychological need just as an oath is taken. There was another revolution against caste system, to declare it madness and disregard it; amrit was given from the same pot to all regardless their castes. I think was/is wonderful. What is wrong with this? [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Panj Piaray & Guru Gobind Singh Ji[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: He states that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never accepted the Panj as his Guru (Appay Guru Chella) [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]Already I commented on this.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Panj Piaray & Amritdharis[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: KA ridicules Panj Piaray & Amritdharis, tells story of a man who was so fed up with Amritdharis that he cut his Kes and never kept them again.[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]One single example [B]needs not to be generalized[/B] . It sounds very [B]immature[/B] statement.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Anand-Karj[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: He ridicules the Panth Parvan Anand-Karj Ceremony. Lables the Anand Maryada as based on Brahmanic Rituals.[/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]How? What is the best he offers, it was a mere ceremony just against prevailing ones [/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Bhai Randhir Singh[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: Labels Bhai Randhir Singh as a "Bipree Agent" (an agent of the Brahmans) [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]I am not aware of it.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale & others[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: Ridicules Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhindranwale, and other Mahapurakhs for having belief in Chitar-Gupt, Dharam-Raaj, Jums, Narak/Surag, and the afterworld. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]I am not aware of this too.[/FONT][/COLOR] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Khanday-Batay, Amrit & Mantar[/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana]: States that the water put in a sarovar or bowl (Khanday-Batay) can never be called Amrit. Nor can anyone blow any Mantar (WaheGuru) in water and turn it into anything powerful (Amrit). He credits the Brahmans for creating such a belief. [/FONT][/LIST][COLOR=#5b5b5b][/COLOR] [COLOR=#5b5b5b][FONT=Verdana]As stated earlier, it was a pious ceremony, while it takes place, Gurbani chanting creates atmosphere. What does he sugges instead of that? To keep gossiping, slandering, and boasting during that time,will it help better! Obviously guy is just splitting hair with no logic. KA himself went through an oath while taking job in Punjab Police. Why didn’t he dare to refuse it by saying it is just a ritual carrying no meaning? After all by merely reading an oath will not change the mind of the person if he doesn’t believe it. It just surprises me how people just come up with [B]ridiculous questionings[/B].[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/FONT] [/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana - A Debate
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