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Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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<blockquote data-quote="thecoopes" data-source="post: 7370" data-attributes="member: 844"><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>Dear Ravi,</strong></span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">One thing I need to get out right now and indeed this has become part of the overall problem in Britain. Your last bit first.</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><u><span style="color: red"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">I am not meaning to paint with you a "racist" brush</span></span></strong></span></u><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: red"> --I know after discussions with you that you are the furthest thing from a racist so if any of my views come across as a villification of you I apologize this is not my intent --chalk it up to quick writing and fatigue (it's 1 in the morning where I am right now!)</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: red"></span>The frustration I feel on this is bordering at times on hysteria as although you have qualified the Racist label with your belief that I’m not one, I find that <strong><u>as this is an open forum</u></strong>, any argument that contains a list of expressions such as “immigrant” or “my country” or “I don’t like what is happening” or “White” – “Brown” – “Black” – “Yellow” immediately has the writers views devalued by those who have no semblance of rational thought process reaching for the Racist label in a pathetic attempt to gain some moral high ground.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">So once and once only. </span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #000099">racist</span></span></span></strong></span><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"> </span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #333333">noun</span></span> </span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #333333">[C]</span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"> </span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #003399">someone <strong><u>who believes</u></strong> that <strong><u>other races are not as good as their own</u></strong> and therefore treats them unfairly:</span></span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Now everyone does understand the meaning of racist? <strong><u>So please my belief is.</u></strong> “No one race has any superiority over another all are equally, as good and as bad. <u>All mankind is equal”</u>! So please don’t devalue this discussion by reaching for the RACISM LABEL!!!!!!!!!!! Please do not let this forum degenerate into the name calling of the AhluBayt shiaChat. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Discussing immigration and using the term immigrant is not racist.</span></span></span> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Please feel free to blast my opinions to pieces, I have no problem with any of you with passion destroying my posts, we’re all adult and all of us can learn, so here goes. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">I thought that I was a reasonable person</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">, however I have to admit that <strong>I have been taught so much on the SPN about fairness and decency.</strong> I had lost my belief in all religions and I viewed all as fanatical. So to find a body of people who were passionate about their beliefs but also possessed tolerance and a willingness to engage in a two-way dialog was quite a shock!</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Start: </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Any country that closed its doors to the outside world and refused to allow immigration would be worse off for their actions. Just as inbreeding within a single genetic pool causes degeneration and weakness so to isolation of a social order causes self obsessed inward looking myopia. We as a country have had a tradition of welcoming people from all over the world and although this has not always been a perfect experience for everyone by and large it has benefited both the individual and the country. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">So what’s the big deal now? </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">What everyone needs to understand about the present state of affairs in Britain is this:</span></span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">We have a situation that is causing the general population to feel, rightly or wrongly that our way of life as a British nation is under serious threat. First and foremost this is not directly the fault of the people who are immigrants! No, this is because the now government is hell bent on Britain becoming part of some European Super state in which all countries shake off their single identities and become Eurotopia. To do this the zealots who are pushing us to this abomination need to break the identities of the individual cultures that are the British, in particular the English. So their view on anything that identifies with this, is slowly being expunged. Part of the process is the failing experiment of multiculturalism, which basically is the belief that we as a nation should become indistinguishable. This though is just causing a vacuum of identity, and as any schoolboy knows nature abhors a vacuum so into this vacuum is rushing all these immigrant cultures and this is changing the face of Britain. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Just a couple of things:</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">1)Can you show any indicators that suggest that immigrants are not integrating as well as they used to before? </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">I am 58 years old and most of my working life I have worked with people from all over the world who have come to Britain, the majority of these people have been keen to be part of this country and although its natural to group together they gave the impression that they were British and were working for the general good of both themselves and their new country.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Now though, because of this governments obsession with the afore mentioned madness these people are free to follow their own agendas and these agendas are mainly inward looking self-interests. None of the hundreds of different ethnic groups has the need to learn our language; indeed we have an Iraqi councillor in the North of England that cannot speak English so we have to pay for an interpreter for this man so he can understand the council meetings! Street names in some parts of London have been removed and the names rewritten in the language of whatever that community is. I have been to factories that have five languages posted on the toilet doors to tell the five ethnic groups that they should wash their hands after using the toilet!!!</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">(I was told in one of these factories by an Indian who had lived in this country for 40 years that this is madness and would only lead to trouble!) </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">We have Muslim communities calling for the government to allow them to run their part of the country under Islamic law! <strong>So would you call this integrating well? </strong>This is just the tip of the iceberg. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: red">I mentioned a number of clear indicators in the Canadian experience that suggests the very opposite of what you are saying. </span>In Canada you do not have the {censored}s running the country that we have over here.</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">2)On the subject of "lost traditions" can you name even one? Last time I checked the language of government is English, the language of commerce is English, all of the holidays are christian, etc.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong>Um? Please not lost, in the process of being destroyed! </strong>You remember the question that started this discussion? It was the feeling of the Indian community that a Western festival was: <strong><span style="color: green">Valentine's Day celebrations has come from the West and through it an attempt is being made to <u>spoil Indian culture</u>,"</span></strong> Now we may disagree with their view, but remember its their culture and they have the right to express their concerns, we should also respect their views.</span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">I am sure you are aware that we can see a process of destruction as it takes place. For example, costal erosion may only take place slowly, but the end result is assured and that is the changed face of a countries coastline, so to with what happens to a national identity the process may be slow but the end results can be clearly seen.</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">As you have read one of the most international languages in the world is being circumvented.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You say about “holidays being Christian”! Did you know that in Britain today that Christmas is being viewed as an anathema by these high priests of multiculturalism, to the extent that we mustn’t upset the ethnic groups by the display of overt Christian symbols, Nativity scenes etc even the name Christmas holiday has been changed in some places to Winterval in an attempt to make it more palatable to the ethnic communities. The prime minister’s own Christmas cards were designed not to cause offence and so did not say happy Christmas, street lights and Christmas trees were not allowed by some communities as it was considered offensive. There is an almost endless list of things that are said to be causes for offence that we as a people are encouraged to surrender in the interests of racial harmony! </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The monarchy is still in place, the flag is still the official flag of the country --this has not changed. I would like to hear of your no go areas for whites.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">It is common now in area’s that are particularly Asian to have no go areas for Whites, we had around 18months ago two lads who strayed into a Muslim area where one of them was murdered simply because he was a white face in the wrong place. The police too have difficulty in these areas because any attempt to chase criminals in them is a cause for the ethnic population to start racial trouble. We have ethnic groups who have come to this country with the claim they want to escape interracial trouble! These groups then continue on our streets the fighting that took place between them in the countries from which they came! </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">My family came to Canada in 1906 and there have been very few places where they could work, live, etc. In fact as recent as 1976 my dad was denied the right to purchase land because the property in that area was "not available to east indians". Anglo Saxon culture is nowhere near being destroyed. Again show me indicators beyond anecdotal information.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong>Quite rightly you ask for fact and not anecdotal information. All the above is fact and can be easily checked. </strong></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Isn't the point of having services at all is that they be effective? If you have services that only serve a certain segment of the population extremely ineffective and inequitable? You want to be able to serve as many people as possible and not perpetuate inequalities (a very English tradition by the way one that IMHO clearly outweighs what language a service is provided in). I'll give you a good example again within the Canadian experience. After the unfortunate bombing of an Air India flight in 1985, the federal Canadian police force were not able to crack the case because they could not relate or speak to the community (at the time there were only 2 punjabi speaking officers available in the whole police force!) Only when the Canadian police decided to learn more about the community and hire punjabi language speakers were they able to make any headway. </span></span><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">In this case it is clear that by not acknowledging the importance of other cultures/languages the police were not able to do their jobs.</span></span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"></span></span></span><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">No I’m afraid I strongly disagree with that opinion, the police may have needed to speak punjabi to be able to succeed in their policing within that community. However rather than there being a requirement for the police of Canada to learn punjabi it should have been a indisputable requirement within each ethnic community to speak the language of the country they now choose as home!</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong>You yourself said:</strong><span style="color: red">“When speaking of integrating immigrants into a nation it is important to see it as <strong>form of a negotiation</strong>. </span><strong>So in our negotiation our requirement is <u>for you to learn English</u>.</strong></span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><u>The hosting culture "agrees" to make adjustments</u> for the minority group and the <u>minority group </u>of course <u>is already making adjustments</u>”. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">What adjustments are already being made by the minority group? </span></span></strong><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">So if you truly are concerned with equity it only makes sense that certain accomodations are made for groups to level the playing field a little.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Level the playing field a little! There is no such thing as a little and indeed this is what most of the problems in Britain are at the moment in that <u>the levelling is all one way</u>.</span></span></strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You seem to believe that a state can be neutral in how it treats all of its diverse group of people. This is not the case. States always give preferental treatment to certain groups/activities. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Neutral no, fair yes. But I strongly believe that if there is any bias then it should be to the culture of the indigenous population. Why were the British eventually forced out of India? It was because the Indians to whom the country rightly belonged were sick of the British immigrants dictating how the indigenous population should live their lives and it mattered not that the British had bought some good things to India. </span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">For example, most countries have national art galleries and support the arts but they do not support things like bowling or such activies. In this way, states give preferential treatment to particular groups. If minority groups ask for similar allowances they are villifed in the press and by members of the majority group. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">You need to live in Britain this is not the case, indeed it’s the other way around and we are the ones that are vilified for seeking our interests. </span></span></strong><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">The supposed destruction of English traditions is hardly what you make it out to be but rather the preservation of the most important English tradition of all --valuing equity.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"></span></span></span><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">No its not and may I leave this final thought by way of an illustration.</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">After visiting different countries and sampling their foods you decide to lay on a banquet for your friends to share the experience of the different cultures you’ve visited. The food is prepared and laid out before your gests, however as they sit down to eat you serve all the food in one bucket all mixed together, now though instead of the beautiful meals all you have is a bucket of pigs swill. This is multiculturalism! </span></span></strong></p><p><strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">(The banquet table is the world, the individual meals are the worlds cultures the bucket is Britain.)</span></span></strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Pleased to remain your friend and fellow human being.</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong>John C</strong></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="thecoopes, post: 7370, member: 844"] [font=Arial][size=3][b]Dear Ravi,[/b][/size][/font] [b][font=Arial][size=3]One thing I need to get out right now and indeed this has become part of the overall problem in Britain. Your last bit first.[/size][/font][/b] [u][color=red][b][font=Arial][size=3]I am not meaning to paint with you a "racist" brush[/size][/font][/b][/color][/u][size=3][font=Arial][color=red] --I know after discussions with you that you are the furthest thing from a racist so if any of my views come across as a villification of you I apologize this is not my intent --chalk it up to quick writing and fatigue (it's 1 in the morning where I am right now!) [/color]The frustration I feel on this is bordering at times on hysteria as although you have qualified the Racist label with your belief that I’m not one, I find that [b][u]as this is an open forum[/u][/b], any argument that contains a list of expressions such as “immigrant” or “my country” or “I don’t like what is happening” or “White” – “Brown” – “Black” – “Yellow” immediately has the writers views devalued by those who have no semblance of rational thought process reaching for the Racist label in a pathetic attempt to gain some moral high ground.[/font][/size] [b][size=3][font=Arial]So once and once only. [/font][/size][/b] [font=Arial][b][font=Arial][size=3][color=#000099]racist[/color][/size][/font][/b][/font][size=3][font=Arial][font=Arial] [font=Arial][color=#333333]noun[/color][/font] [/font][font=Arial][color=#333333][C][/color][/font][/font][/size][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial] [font=Arial][color=#003399]someone [b][u]who believes[/u][/b] that [b][u]other races are not as good as their own[/u][/b] and therefore treats them unfairly:[/color][/font][/font][/size][/font] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]Now everyone does understand the meaning of racist? [b][u]So please my belief is.[/u][/b] “No one race has any superiority over another all are equally, as good and as bad. [u]All mankind is equal”[/u]! So please don’t devalue this discussion by reaching for the RACISM LABEL!!!!!!!!!!! Please do not let this forum degenerate into the name calling of the AhluBayt shiaChat. [/font][/size][/font][/color] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]Discussing immigration and using the term immigrant is not racist.[/font][/size][/font][/color] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial][/font][/size][/font][/color] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]Please feel free to blast my opinions to pieces, I have no problem with any of you with passion destroying my posts, we’re all adult and all of us can learn, so here goes. [/font][/size][/font][/color] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial][/font][/size][/font][/color] [size=3][font=Arial][b][color=windowtext][font=Arial]I thought that I was a reasonable person[/font][/color][/b][color=windowtext][font=Arial], however I have to admit that [b]I have been taught so much on the SPN about fairness and decency.[/b] I had lost my belief in all religions and I viewed all as fanatical. So to find a body of people who were passionate about their beliefs but also possessed tolerance and a willingness to engage in a two-way dialog was quite a shock![/font][/color][/font][/size] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]Start: [/font][/size][/font][/color] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]Any country that closed its doors to the outside world and refused to allow immigration would be worse off for their actions. Just as inbreeding within a single genetic pool causes degeneration and weakness so to isolation of a social order causes self obsessed inward looking myopia. We as a country have had a tradition of welcoming people from all over the world and although this has not always been a perfect experience for everyone by and large it has benefited both the individual and the country. [/font][/size][/font][/color] [color=windowtext][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]So what’s the big deal now? [/font][/size][/font][/color] [b][font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]What everyone needs to understand about the present state of affairs in Britain is this:[/font][/size][/font][/b] [font=Arial][size=3][font=Arial]We have a situation that is causing the general population to feel, rightly or wrongly that our way of life as a British nation is under serious threat. First and foremost this is not directly the fault of the people who are immigrants! No, this is because the now government is hell bent on Britain becoming part of some European Super state in which all countries shake off their single identities and become Eurotopia. To do this the zealots who are pushing us to this abomination need to break the identities of the individual cultures that are the British, in particular the English. So their view on anything that identifies with this, is slowly being expunged. Part of the process is the failing experiment of multiculturalism, which basically is the belief that we as a nation should become indistinguishable. This though is just causing a vacuum of identity, and as any schoolboy knows nature abhors a vacuum so into this vacuum is rushing all these immigrant cultures and this is changing the face of Britain. [/font][/size][/font] [size=3] [/size] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial]Just a couple of things: 1)Can you show any indicators that suggest that immigrants are not integrating as well as they used to before? [/font][/size][/color] [font=Arial][size=3]I am 58 years old and most of my working life I have worked with people from all over the world who have come to Britain, the majority of these people have been keen to be part of this country and although its natural to group together they gave the impression that they were British and were working for the general good of both themselves and their new country.[/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=3]Now though, because of this governments obsession with the afore mentioned madness these people are free to follow their own agendas and these agendas are mainly inward looking self-interests. None of the hundreds of different ethnic groups has the need to learn our language; indeed we have an Iraqi councillor in the North of England that cannot speak English so we have to pay for an interpreter for this man so he can understand the council meetings! Street names in some parts of London have been removed and the names rewritten in the language of whatever that community is. I have been to factories that have five languages posted on the toilet doors to tell the five ethnic groups that they should wash their hands after using the toilet!!![/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=3](I was told in one of these factories by an Indian who had lived in this country for 40 years that this is madness and would only lead to trouble!) [/size][/font] [size=3][font=Arial]We have Muslim communities calling for the government to allow them to run their part of the country under Islamic law! [b]So would you call this integrating well? [/b]This is just the tip of the iceberg. [/font][/size] [size=3][font=Arial][color=red]I mentioned a number of clear indicators in the Canadian experience that suggests the very opposite of what you are saying. [/color]In Canada you do not have the {censored}s running the country that we have over here.[/font][/size] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial]2)On the subject of "lost traditions" can you name even one? Last time I checked the language of government is English, the language of commerce is English, all of the holidays are christian, etc.[/font][/size][/color] [size=3][font=Arial][b]Um? Please not lost, in the process of being destroyed! [/b]You remember the question that started this discussion? It was the feeling of the Indian community that a Western festival was: [b][color=green]Valentine's Day celebrations has come from the West and through it an attempt is being made to [u]spoil Indian culture[/u],"[/color][/b] Now we may disagree with their view, but remember its their culture and they have the right to express their concerns, we should also respect their views.[/font][/size] [b][size=3][font=Arial]I am sure you are aware that we can see a process of destruction as it takes place. For example, costal erosion may only take place slowly, but the end result is assured and that is the changed face of a countries coastline, so to with what happens to a national identity the process may be slow but the end results can be clearly seen.[/font][/size][/b] [font=Arial][size=3]As you have read one of the most international languages in the world is being circumvented.[/size][/font] [size=3][font=Arial]You say about “holidays being Christian”! Did you know that in Britain today that Christmas is being viewed as an anathema by these high priests of multiculturalism, to the extent that we mustn’t upset the ethnic groups by the display of overt Christian symbols, Nativity scenes etc even the name Christmas holiday has been changed in some places to Winterval in an attempt to make it more palatable to the ethnic communities. The prime minister’s own Christmas cards were designed not to cause offence and so did not say happy Christmas, street lights and Christmas trees were not allowed by some communities as it was considered offensive. There is an almost endless list of things that are said to be causes for offence that we as a people are encouraged to surrender in the interests of racial harmony! [/font][/size] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial]The monarchy is still in place, the flag is still the official flag of the country --this has not changed. I would like to hear of your no go areas for whites.[/font][/size][/color] [font=Arial][size=3]It is common now in area’s that are particularly Asian to have no go areas for Whites, we had around 18months ago two lads who strayed into a Muslim area where one of them was murdered simply because he was a white face in the wrong place. The police too have difficulty in these areas because any attempt to chase criminals in them is a cause for the ethnic population to start racial trouble. We have ethnic groups who have come to this country with the claim they want to escape interracial trouble! These groups then continue on our streets the fighting that took place between them in the countries from which they came! [/size][/font] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial]My family came to Canada in 1906 and there have been very few places where they could work, live, etc. In fact as recent as 1976 my dad was denied the right to purchase land because the property in that area was "not available to east indians". Anglo Saxon culture is nowhere near being destroyed. Again show me indicators beyond anecdotal information.[/font][/size][/color] [size=3][font=Arial][b]Quite rightly you ask for fact and not anecdotal information. All the above is fact and can be easily checked. [/b][b][font=Verdana][/font][/b][/font][/size] [color=red][font=Arial][size=3]Isn't the point of having services at all is that they be effective? If you have services that only serve a certain segment of the population extremely ineffective and inequitable? You want to be able to serve as many people as possible and not perpetuate inequalities (a very English tradition by the way one that IMHO clearly outweighs what language a service is provided in). I'll give you a good example again within the Canadian experience. After the unfortunate bombing of an Air India flight in 1985, the federal Canadian police force were not able to crack the case because they could not relate or speak to the community (at the time there were only 2 punjabi speaking officers available in the whole police force!) Only when the Canadian police decided to learn more about the community and hire punjabi language speakers were they able to make any headway. [/size][/font][b][font=Arial][size=3]In this case it is clear that by not acknowledging the importance of other cultures/languages the police were not able to do their jobs.[/size][/font][/b][font=Arial][size=3] [b][/b][/size][b][/b][/font][b][/b][/color][b][size=3][font=Arial]No I’m afraid I strongly disagree with that opinion, the police may have needed to speak punjabi to be able to succeed in their policing within that community. However rather than there being a requirement for the police of Canada to learn punjabi it should have been a indisputable requirement within each ethnic community to speak the language of the country they now choose as home![/font][/size][/b] [size=3][font=Arial][b]You yourself said:[/b][color=red]“When speaking of integrating immigrants into a nation it is important to see it as [b]form of a negotiation[/b]. [/color][b]So in our negotiation our requirement is [u]for you to learn English[/u].[/b][/font][/size] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial][u]The hosting culture "agrees" to make adjustments[/u] for the minority group and the [u]minority group [/u]of course [u]is already making adjustments[/u]”. [/font][/size][/color] [b][font=Arial][size=3]What adjustments are already being made by the minority group? [/size][/font][color=red][size=3][font=Arial][/font][/size][/color][/b][color=red][size=3][font=Arial] [b][/b][/font][b][/b][/size][b][/b][/color][b][/b][color=red][size=3][font=Arial]So if you truly are concerned with equity it only makes sense that certain accomodations are made for groups to level the playing field a little.[/font][/size][/color] [b][size=3][font=Arial]Level the playing field a little! There is no such thing as a little and indeed this is what most of the problems in Britain are at the moment in that [u]the levelling is all one way[/u].[/font][/size][/b][size=3][font=Arial] [/font][/size] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial]You seem to believe that a state can be neutral in how it treats all of its diverse group of people. This is not the case. States always give preferental treatment to certain groups/activities. [/font][/size][/color] [b][size=3][font=Arial]Neutral no, fair yes. But I strongly believe that if there is any bias then it should be to the culture of the indigenous population. Why were the British eventually forced out of India? It was because the Indians to whom the country rightly belonged were sick of the British immigrants dictating how the indigenous population should live their lives and it mattered not that the British had bought some good things to India. [/font][/size][/b] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial]For example, most countries have national art galleries and support the arts but they do not support things like bowling or such activies. In this way, states give preferential treatment to particular groups. If minority groups ask for similar allowances they are villifed in the press and by members of the majority group. [/font][/size][/color] [b][font=Arial][size=3]You need to live in Britain this is not the case, indeed it’s the other way around and we are the ones that are vilified for seeking our interests. [/size][/font][color=red][/color][/b][color=red] [b][/b][/color][b][/b][color=red] [font=Arial][size=3]The supposed destruction of English traditions is hardly what you make it out to be but rather the preservation of the most important English tradition of all --valuing equity. [/size][/font][/color][b][size=3][font=Arial]No its not and may I leave this final thought by way of an illustration.[/font][/size][/b] [b][font=Arial][size=3]After visiting different countries and sampling their foods you decide to lay on a banquet for your friends to share the experience of the different cultures you’ve visited. The food is prepared and laid out before your gests, however as they sit down to eat you serve all the food in one bucket all mixed together, now though instead of the beautiful meals all you have is a bucket of pigs swill. This is multiculturalism! [/size][/font][/b] [b][b][size=3][font=Arial](The banquet table is the world, the individual meals are the worlds cultures the bucket is Britain.)[/font][/size][/b] [color=red][size=3][font=Arial][/font][/size][/color][/b][color=red][size=3][font=Arial][b][/b][/font][b][/b][/size][b][/b][/color][b][/b] [b][size=3][font=Arial]Pleased to remain your friend and fellow human being.[/font][/size][/b] [size=3][font=Arial][b]John C[/b][b][font=Verdana][/font][/b][/font][/size] [/QUOTE]
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