☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 160558" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Amarjit ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You mean they hunger to be humans? </p><p>First, gods (with a small ‘g’) I refer to are not to be confused with those conceived of by the Hindus. They have no special powers, but like humans, generally go about their day to day existence motivated by desire for pleasure. Second, they surely do not have the form that we humans have, so let’s not take our own imaginations too seriously in this regard. </p><p></p><p>Would these gods hunger to be humans? I don’t think so. Ask an average human being where he would like to be and which country/ city he thinks is best and the answer will be, the one he is living in. Like us the gods would be motivated by not only desire for pleasure, which there is unlimited potential for, where they are, but also craving for existence. This means that they will not wish to leave what they already have. I say therefore that this idea about gods desiring human birth is nothing more than a projection by human beings.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What's with this romantic notion, “Mother earth”?</p><p>It is about human existence and not the concept of place we call “earth”. The advantage of human birth is in that it consists of results both good and bad. And given the great tendency to attachment all beings have, in a heavenly realm one would simply be swept by desire for the pleasant experiences and therefore the probability of waking up is minimal. So the potential for temptation is in fact far greater in heaven than here.</p><p></p><p>But really, why would a god who understands the concept of ‘awakening’ enough to see that it is possible as a human, think to change his circumstance? Would he not instead think to develop the understanding regardless of where he is? Would not the desire for a more favorable existence be exactly the stuff of the cycle of birth and death and antithesis to the idea of awakening / liberation?</p><p></p><p></p><p>.</p><p></p><p>For most it is creating the conditions for more strongly being caught in the cycle of existence. Birth as an animal is a situation in which the chance of rebirth as a human is exponentially lessened. As in the simile of the blind turtle swimming in the vast ocean and coming up to the surface every one hundred years. What are the chances that his head will come out through one floating tire in that ocean? Indeed I see that 99% of humans are in more or less similar situation, including you and myself. :-/</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You mean it is not karma which conditions birth as this or that being? </p><p>What is your understanding about karma and why do you talk about morality?</p><p>One reason why some people end up dismissing karma is the apparent inconsistency of thought on the part of those who propose the idea. The reason why many Sikhs dismiss the Hindu notion of karma is because in observing their general behavior and practices, they see so much contradiction. </p><p></p><p>To talk about moral good and bad actions and their corresponding fruits, but often mistaking cause for results comes across as insincere. To say that what we receive is the result of what we sow but at the same time pray to different Gods for blessing shows lack of any real understanding about karma. To appeal to higher birth (caste) and claim moral superiority by virtue of this reflects no understanding with regard to what constitutes true objects of reverence and is hypocritical. </p><p></p><p>Karma *is* moral good and bad action, through body, speech or mind, but more precisely, it is “intention”. And we should not confuse the “cause” with results. Intention to good and bad actions are “cause”, the result of which are the pleasant and unpleasant experiences through the five senses or birth as this or that being. </p><p></p><p>The ideas such as “praying to the Gods for blessing” or that a “soul committee decides our fate” has therefore no place in the scheme of things. Having these ideas and trying to convince others about the reality of karma is therefore not going to bear any positive fruit either for oneself nor the other person. Given that karma is synonymous with moral good and bad actions, misunderstanding this can only lead to greater ignorance and decreased confidence in the value of goodness.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you think that the situation about the blind turtle is not true? </p><p>As a human being with an interest in gaining knowledge and wisdom, I see that more than 90% of my volitional actions are the stuff of continued existence, bad ones at that. An animal has absolutely no clue as to what the truth is. In its case it is 100 % being swept by the waves of ignorance and craving.</p><p></p><p>This view that we are getting closer to enlightenment as time passes and with each new birth is a very foolish one. The picture is of a ball of string rolling across the floor which comes to its end by unwinding without the need for any special effort. This actually shows lack of confidence in karma and can lead to belief in moral inefficacy and therefore very dangerous to go by. </p><p></p><p>I am not surprised though why you appear to move in all directions. It is the case of a man lost in a dark jungle with no sense of direction, one moment going this and another that way and ending up going nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, but know that my intention is only to correct the misunderstanding that is perceived.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My impression is that you have absolutely no clue as to what enlightenment is about. Sorry.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 160558, member: 586"] Amarjit ji, You mean they hunger to be humans? First, gods (with a small ‘g’) I refer to are not to be confused with those conceived of by the Hindus. They have no special powers, but like humans, generally go about their day to day existence motivated by desire for pleasure. Second, they surely do not have the form that we humans have, so let’s not take our own imaginations too seriously in this regard. Would these gods hunger to be humans? I don’t think so. Ask an average human being where he would like to be and which country/ city he thinks is best and the answer will be, the one he is living in. Like us the gods would be motivated by not only desire for pleasure, which there is unlimited potential for, where they are, but also craving for existence. This means that they will not wish to leave what they already have. I say therefore that this idea about gods desiring human birth is nothing more than a projection by human beings. What's with this romantic notion, “Mother earth”? It is about human existence and not the concept of place we call “earth”. The advantage of human birth is in that it consists of results both good and bad. And given the great tendency to attachment all beings have, in a heavenly realm one would simply be swept by desire for the pleasant experiences and therefore the probability of waking up is minimal. So the potential for temptation is in fact far greater in heaven than here. But really, why would a god who understands the concept of ‘awakening’ enough to see that it is possible as a human, think to change his circumstance? Would he not instead think to develop the understanding regardless of where he is? Would not the desire for a more favorable existence be exactly the stuff of the cycle of birth and death and antithesis to the idea of awakening / liberation? . For most it is creating the conditions for more strongly being caught in the cycle of existence. Birth as an animal is a situation in which the chance of rebirth as a human is exponentially lessened. As in the simile of the blind turtle swimming in the vast ocean and coming up to the surface every one hundred years. What are the chances that his head will come out through one floating tire in that ocean? Indeed I see that 99% of humans are in more or less similar situation, including you and myself. :-/ You mean it is not karma which conditions birth as this or that being? What is your understanding about karma and why do you talk about morality? One reason why some people end up dismissing karma is the apparent inconsistency of thought on the part of those who propose the idea. The reason why many Sikhs dismiss the Hindu notion of karma is because in observing their general behavior and practices, they see so much contradiction. To talk about moral good and bad actions and their corresponding fruits, but often mistaking cause for results comes across as insincere. To say that what we receive is the result of what we sow but at the same time pray to different Gods for blessing shows lack of any real understanding about karma. To appeal to higher birth (caste) and claim moral superiority by virtue of this reflects no understanding with regard to what constitutes true objects of reverence and is hypocritical. Karma *is* moral good and bad action, through body, speech or mind, but more precisely, it is “intention”. And we should not confuse the “cause” with results. Intention to good and bad actions are “cause”, the result of which are the pleasant and unpleasant experiences through the five senses or birth as this or that being. The ideas such as “praying to the Gods for blessing” or that a “soul committee decides our fate” has therefore no place in the scheme of things. Having these ideas and trying to convince others about the reality of karma is therefore not going to bear any positive fruit either for oneself nor the other person. Given that karma is synonymous with moral good and bad actions, misunderstanding this can only lead to greater ignorance and decreased confidence in the value of goodness. So you think that the situation about the blind turtle is not true? As a human being with an interest in gaining knowledge and wisdom, I see that more than 90% of my volitional actions are the stuff of continued existence, bad ones at that. An animal has absolutely no clue as to what the truth is. In its case it is 100 % being swept by the waves of ignorance and craving. This view that we are getting closer to enlightenment as time passes and with each new birth is a very foolish one. The picture is of a ball of string rolling across the floor which comes to its end by unwinding without the need for any special effort. This actually shows lack of confidence in karma and can lead to belief in moral inefficacy and therefore very dangerous to go by. I am not surprised though why you appear to move in all directions. It is the case of a man lost in a dark jungle with no sense of direction, one moment going this and another that way and ending up going nowhere. Sorry to be so blunt, but know that my intention is only to correct the misunderstanding that is perceived. My impression is that you have absolutely no clue as to what enlightenment is about. Sorry. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top