☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Interfaith Dialogues
Does God Control Everything?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="bindi" data-source="post: 22454" data-attributes="member: 1895"><p>Veer Jatinderji allegory of God's Will vs. Free Will using the environment of a computer video game is very interesting.</p><p></p><p>Like him, I have often thought of creation as a programmed entity - one with a fixed set of laws - something very similar to a video game alluded to by him. Following these laws leads one to emancipation. Breaking these laws leads one to damnation. But unlike Veer Jatinderji, I have never really been comfortable with such a metaphor. The reason for this is not because the allegory in inaccurate but because of it?s underlying connotations. Let me explain.</p><p></p><p>In a video game the player has options to make choices. This is liken to free will. But the number of choices are limited. You only have a fixed set of function keys and even a fixed set of weapons. Even your energy or "lives" are limited. This fixed set of functions, weapons, energy or lives make up your resources. You use these resources to accomplish whatever task you want. Thus although you can make choices, your choices or resources are limited in scope.</p><p></p><p>This illustration fits well with what we observed in life. In life although we are free to make choices, still our choices are limited to our resources. Beyond our resources we can only wonder what we might accomplish. Thus free will is at best only a freedom to choose from a certain set of resources. Free will is not the freedom to choose anything or everything. </p><p></p><p>If we to turn our attention onto the detailed investigation of how human make choices, we will uncover even more unpleasant truths. We said earlier that free will is the freedom to choose. However often times, our decision to choose is not always ours to make. Our decisions are influenced by a many factors - chief among them are the availability of resource and our capacity to use them. Science have also uncovered that our decisions are also influenced by our sub-conscious mind. Since we do not know how our sub-conscious mind influence our decision-making, we have no way to control it. Thus our decisions may already have been made deep within the sub-conscious mind, long before we are given the opportunity to exercise it. This cast serious doubts on our believe of a free will.</p><p></p><p>We ask then does free will really exist? All that we can be certain is we have choices. Whether we are truly "FREE" to make the best choices for ourselves may not always be true. Sometime choices are made for us. Sometimes we have no freedom to make the choices we would otherwise want to make. Sometimes it seems, no matter what choice we make, we are stuck with the same outcome ? a catch 22 situation. Sometimes we don?t even know how we made our choices or even why we made them!</p><p></p><p>Thus I would conclude that life gives us only an illusionary control over our destiny through the instrument of free will. Free will can effect choices but it cannot determine the future outcome of those choices. Thus free will has no macrocosmic significance. It only has microcosmic importance. </p><p></p><p>Therefore it would seem that after a long and hard search, I have come to the same conclusions as the Guru ? namely that man is not the ultimate maker of his destiny. What does this mean for the question we posed earlier - ?does God control everything??. Does free will?s lack of independence suggest that God is in charge of everything?</p><p></p><p>To me both are separate questions. The answer of one does not automatically settled the enigma of the second. This means that if free will is not King, it does not mean God?s Will is controlling everything. We will see why in my next posting.</p><p></p><p>Bindi</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="bindi, post: 22454, member: 1895"] Veer Jatinderji allegory of God's Will vs. Free Will using the environment of a computer video game is very interesting. Like him, I have often thought of creation as a programmed entity - one with a fixed set of laws - something very similar to a video game alluded to by him. Following these laws leads one to emancipation. Breaking these laws leads one to damnation. But unlike Veer Jatinderji, I have never really been comfortable with such a metaphor. The reason for this is not because the allegory in inaccurate but because of it?s underlying connotations. Let me explain. In a video game the player has options to make choices. This is liken to free will. But the number of choices are limited. You only have a fixed set of function keys and even a fixed set of weapons. Even your energy or "lives" are limited. This fixed set of functions, weapons, energy or lives make up your resources. You use these resources to accomplish whatever task you want. Thus although you can make choices, your choices or resources are limited in scope. This illustration fits well with what we observed in life. In life although we are free to make choices, still our choices are limited to our resources. Beyond our resources we can only wonder what we might accomplish. Thus free will is at best only a freedom to choose from a certain set of resources. Free will is not the freedom to choose anything or everything. If we to turn our attention onto the detailed investigation of how human make choices, we will uncover even more unpleasant truths. We said earlier that free will is the freedom to choose. However often times, our decision to choose is not always ours to make. Our decisions are influenced by a many factors - chief among them are the availability of resource and our capacity to use them. Science have also uncovered that our decisions are also influenced by our sub-conscious mind. Since we do not know how our sub-conscious mind influence our decision-making, we have no way to control it. Thus our decisions may already have been made deep within the sub-conscious mind, long before we are given the opportunity to exercise it. This cast serious doubts on our believe of a free will. We ask then does free will really exist? All that we can be certain is we have choices. Whether we are truly "FREE" to make the best choices for ourselves may not always be true. Sometime choices are made for us. Sometimes we have no freedom to make the choices we would otherwise want to make. Sometimes it seems, no matter what choice we make, we are stuck with the same outcome ? a catch 22 situation. Sometimes we don?t even know how we made our choices or even why we made them! Thus I would conclude that life gives us only an illusionary control over our destiny through the instrument of free will. Free will can effect choices but it cannot determine the future outcome of those choices. Thus free will has no macrocosmic significance. It only has microcosmic importance. Therefore it would seem that after a long and hard search, I have come to the same conclusions as the Guru ? namely that man is not the ultimate maker of his destiny. What does this mean for the question we posed earlier - ?does God control everything??. Does free will?s lack of independence suggest that God is in charge of everything? To me both are separate questions. The answer of one does not automatically settled the enigma of the second. This means that if free will is not King, it does not mean God?s Will is controlling everything. We will see why in my next posting. Bindi [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Interfaith Dialogues
Does God Control Everything?
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top