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Does God Control Everything?
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<blockquote data-quote="P J Singh" data-source="post: 224404" data-attributes="member: 25524"><p>S Kanwar Singh Ji:</p><p></p><p>I sincerely apologize for not being able to respond to you; it is for personal reasons. </p><p></p><p>I very much appreciate your thoughtfulness in sharing your thoughts, my reaction to your views is somewhat mixed. The main theme of this thread, however, is: “if God is doing everything than why we are held accountable for our actions”. On this question, Gurbani is very clear as it states at the outset in JapJi Sahib that everything happens as per HUKUM. In this sense since the Hukum flows out of Akalpurkh/God, everything is done by God. But then Gurbani also tells us that we are in this awesome playground and drama in which we play out our game of life. In this game we are expected to do good Karams ( with our own free will) but at the same time we also have destiny that we bring along as a collective outcome of unmanifested Purbala Karam. I notice you do not believe in Purbala Karam as you quote:</p><p><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AC" target="_blank">ਜਬ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%9B%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਕਛੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8" target="_blank">ਨ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%93" target="_blank">ਸੀਓ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%AC" target="_blank">ਤਬ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86" target="_blank">ਕਿਆ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਕਰਤਾ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A8" target="_blank">ਕਵਨ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE" target="_blank">ਕਰਮ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank">ਕਰਿ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86" target="_blank">ਆਇਆ </a>॥ </p><p></p><p>On this point my views are as follows:</p><p></p><p>In this Gurmat path, the use of <em>Bibak Budh</em> is an imperative. The use of <em>Bibak Budh</em> while in the process of reading, interpreting and understanding Gurmat is critical, it is equally critical in other intellectual endevours. It is this Bibak Budh that carves out the direction and delineates the path for the spiritual journey. </p><p></p><p>Almost every Sabad in AGGS is presented as a collection of spiritual thoughts that are most often numbered as 1, 2,3 and so on in the form of “Dho Padhya”, “Teen Padhya” or “Ashtpadi” along with a central thought embedded in “Rahaoo” Pankti where we are expected to pause and reflect on the context. When we quote a single “tuks” from Gurbani, we disrespect Gurus and their wisdom as quoting single “tuks” is like splicing Guru’s complete thought. This is what most disingenuous politicians and socio-religious leaders do – they select and choose words and statements that work for them by ignoring the context through which those words and statements assume true meaning. Guru Sahibs and Bhagats have used examples, metaphors and allegories throughout Gurbani for us to get to the true essence of Gurmat. Quoting single quotes is not helpful. <strong>I recall even the administrator of this site (SPN) in one of his comments cautioned participants NOT TO USE SINGLE GURBANI TUKS while making a point. </strong></p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>In your post you quoted a number of stand alone Gurbani Tuks to make your points. In the outset you start with this Tuk which I have stated above as well:</td></tr><tr><td><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AC" target="_blank">ਜਬ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%9B%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਕਛੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8" target="_blank">ਨ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%93" target="_blank">ਸੀਓ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%AC" target="_blank">ਤਬ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86" target="_blank">ਕਿਆ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਕਰਤਾ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A8" target="_blank">ਕਵਨ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE" target="_blank">ਕਰਮ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank">ਕਰਿ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86" target="_blank">ਆਇਆ </a>॥<br /> </td></tr><tr><td>You write and I quote: “Which means that when there was nothing before and for which deeds the first person came in this world?” and then you provide an answer “Nobody comes in this world because of previous deeds or KARMAS” suggesting to all those who are reading your post is that YOU know the answer to this question. But if we read the entire Sabad ( in which this Gurbani Tuk appears), we learn that even Guru Sahib did not know the answer to this question as he expresses his inability when in the end he says:<br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਮੁਗਧੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਅਜਾਣੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80" target="_blank">ਅਗਿਆਨੀ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE" target="_blank">ਕਰਮ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE" target="_blank">ਧਰਮ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%80" target="_blank">ਨਹੀ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਜਾਣਾ </a>॥<a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86" target="_blank">ਦਇਆ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਕਰਹੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਨਾਨਕੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3" target="_blank">ਗੁਣ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88" target="_blank">ਗਾਵੈ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਮਿਠਾ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%88" target="_blank">ਲਗੈ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਤੇਰਾ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਭਾਣਾ </a>॥੪॥੬॥੫੩॥<br /> <br /> What is unsettling to me is that you are providing an answer to a question that even Guru sahib did not know and no one in this world including contemporary science knows but you say “Nobody comes in this world because of previous deeds or KARMAS” when Guru Sahib is not able to answer it. If you read the entire sabad, it will be clear that the Sabad is nothing to do with the previous deeds of human beings, as you seem to suggest. Guru sahib is simply talking about this amazing and wonderous play that God has created.<br /> </td></tr><tr><td>I believe, it is extremely important not to quote single “tuks” as the administrator of SPN has indicated because without reflecting on the context in which the “tuk” is situated, our understanding of Gurbani could be misleading.<br /> </td></tr></table><p>In your post you have also underscored the need to properly understand the concept of God and then you say, “everybody agrees that God is within us”. You are right; however, in my view, this is an extremely narrow perspective. Unless we broaden this perspective, we can not understand the true essence of Gurbani. I will expand on this in my follow up post soon. Guru Fetah Ji.</p><p></p><p>PJ Singh</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="P J Singh, post: 224404, member: 25524"] S Kanwar Singh Ji: I sincerely apologize for not being able to respond to you; it is for personal reasons. I very much appreciate your thoughtfulness in sharing your thoughts, my reaction to your views is somewhat mixed. The main theme of this thread, however, is: “if God is doing everything than why we are held accountable for our actions”. On this question, Gurbani is very clear as it states at the outset in JapJi Sahib that everything happens as per HUKUM. In this sense since the Hukum flows out of Akalpurkh/God, everything is done by God. But then Gurbani also tells us that we are in this awesome playground and drama in which we play out our game of life. In this game we are expected to do good Karams ( with our own free will) but at the same time we also have destiny that we bring along as a collective outcome of unmanifested Purbala Karam. I notice you do not believe in Purbala Karam as you quote: [URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AC']ਜਬ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%9B%E0%A9%81']ਕਛੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8']ਨ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%93']ਸੀਓ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%AC']ਤਬ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86']ਕਿਆ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE']ਕਰਤਾ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A8']ਕਵਨ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE']ਕਰਮ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF']ਕਰਿ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86']ਆਇਆ [/URL]॥ On this point my views are as follows: In this Gurmat path, the use of [I]Bibak Budh[/I] is an imperative. The use of [I]Bibak Budh[/I] while in the process of reading, interpreting and understanding Gurmat is critical, it is equally critical in other intellectual endevours. It is this Bibak Budh that carves out the direction and delineates the path for the spiritual journey. Almost every Sabad in AGGS is presented as a collection of spiritual thoughts that are most often numbered as 1, 2,3 and so on in the form of “Dho Padhya”, “Teen Padhya” or “Ashtpadi” along with a central thought embedded in “Rahaoo” Pankti where we are expected to pause and reflect on the context. When we quote a single “tuks” from Gurbani, we disrespect Gurus and their wisdom as quoting single “tuks” is like splicing Guru’s complete thought. This is what most disingenuous politicians and socio-religious leaders do – they select and choose words and statements that work for them by ignoring the context through which those words and statements assume true meaning. Guru Sahibs and Bhagats have used examples, metaphors and allegories throughout Gurbani for us to get to the true essence of Gurmat. Quoting single quotes is not helpful. [B]I recall even the administrator of this site (SPN) in one of his comments cautioned participants NOT TO USE SINGLE GURBANI TUKS while making a point. [/B] [TABLE] [TR] [TD]In your post you quoted a number of stand alone Gurbani Tuks to make your points. In the outset you start with this Tuk which I have stated above as well:[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AC']ਜਬ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%9B%E0%A9%81']ਕਛੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8']ਨ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%93']ਸੀਓ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%AC']ਤਬ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86']ਕਿਆ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%BE']ਕਰਤਾ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%A8']ਕਵਨ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE']ਕਰਮ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF']ਕਰਿ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86']ਆਇਆ [/URL]॥ [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]You write and I quote: “Which means that when there was nothing before and for which deeds the first person came in this world?” and then you provide an answer “Nobody comes in this world because of previous deeds or KARMAS” suggesting to all those who are reading your post is that YOU know the answer to this question. But if we read the entire Sabad ( in which this Gurbani Tuk appears), we learn that even Guru Sahib did not know the answer to this question as he expresses his inability when in the end he says: [URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81']ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%81']ਮੁਗਧੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%81']ਅਜਾਣੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80']ਅਗਿਆਨੀ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE']ਕਰਮ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE']ਧਰਮ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%80']ਨਹੀ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE']ਜਾਣਾ [/URL]॥[URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86']ਦਇਆ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81']ਕਰਹੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81']ਨਾਨਕੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%A3']ਗੁਣ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B5%E0%A9%88']ਗਾਵੈ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE']ਮਿਠਾ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%97%E0%A9%88']ਲਗੈ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE']ਤੇਰਾ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE']ਭਾਣਾ [/URL]॥੪॥੬॥੫੩॥ What is unsettling to me is that you are providing an answer to a question that even Guru sahib did not know and no one in this world including contemporary science knows but you say “Nobody comes in this world because of previous deeds or KARMAS” when Guru Sahib is not able to answer it. If you read the entire sabad, it will be clear that the Sabad is nothing to do with the previous deeds of human beings, as you seem to suggest. Guru sahib is simply talking about this amazing and wonderous play that God has created. [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]I believe, it is extremely important not to quote single “tuks” as the administrator of SPN has indicated because without reflecting on the context in which the “tuk” is situated, our understanding of Gurbani could be misleading. [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] In your post you have also underscored the need to properly understand the concept of God and then you say, “everybody agrees that God is within us”. You are right; however, in my view, this is an extremely narrow perspective. Unless we broaden this perspective, we can not understand the true essence of Gurbani. I will expand on this in my follow up post soon. Guru Fetah Ji. PJ Singh [/QUOTE]
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