☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Do You Believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji Became MUKT/”got Salvation”?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member15" data-source="post: 175653" data-attributes="member: 17438"><p>My dear brother Confused ji, </p><p> </p><p>Firstly, do you think that "<em>you continue to be deluded</em>" is in accordance with "right speech", a keystone moral teaching of the Noble Eightfold Path? I have four Buddhist associates, two Therevada (one a convert from Catholicism to Buddhism) one Mahayana and the other Vajrayana, with whom I have had many a deep, engaging conversation and I can tell you that they have debated with the most entrenched and fundamentalist of Christians who have offended their faith greatly and yet they have never resorted to such language, always replying compassionately, as I would expect a follower of the Buddha to do. I think that you could have phrased your words in a slightly less offensive fashion ie "you continue to misunderstand", or "you continue not to comprehend". To accuse someone of "delusion" is very a severe and harsh accusation to make. </p><p> </p><p>Secondly, you know as well I do, dear friend, that I am a theist and so therefore I call the universe "creation". I did not imply that the Buddha belived the universe to be created, I of course have read the <em>Brahmajala Sutta</em> and its depiction of the 'deluded' ( <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ) Brahma who thought he was the Creator and convinced others to believe the same, that is the other "gods" who fell from the Abhassara and are reborn into this jhanic heaven. Brahma thought he had created them. When the Earth is formed later, one of these gods dies and is reborn as a human, who becomes an ascetic. Through diligent mental cultivation, he is able to recall just one immediate past life, from which he wrongly concludes that Brahma created humans, and that he is ‘eternal’ and ‘unchanging’. The Buddha thus illustrated how belief and worship of a creator god arose, according to his own understanding. </p><p> </p><p>I am aware of this. I therefore know that in Buddhism there is no such thing as "creation" or indeed a "Creator". I think that you have inferred far too much from my own personalized use of the word "creation". </p><p> </p><p>Other than that, can you tell me what you think I "got wrong" in my previous post vis-a-vis the Buddha's teachings? I am genuinely interested, in that it would improve my knowledge. I had understood that the key facets of Buddhist doctrine were the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Three Jewels and the Four [or three] marks of existence. </p><p> </p><p>Thirdly, <strong>an example of conditioned things</strong>? The Buddha taught that all things are conditioned. That each individual part of the <span style="color: black">condition</span> is "notself". Form is not self. Feeling is not self. Sensation is not self. All of these things are conditioned by other things. Anything that is conditioned is therefore subject to conditions. If it is subject to conditions, then its existence is not independent, but dependent on those conditions and so it is "NotSelf". To be conditioned is thus to be dependent on or influenced by something else. That is my understanding of conditioned. If I am wrong, then please do correct me - but actually tell me where I am wrong this time around :grinningkaur: </p><p>Your question makes no sense to me since it posits that I would believe some things in the material world not to be conditioned. Nothing is permanent. Everything changes. The only thing that is unconditioned according to Gautama Buddha is Nirvana, so pray tell me why you want me too look around at the universe and pick out one thing from everything that is conditioned? </p><p> </p><p>But if you want an example, then why not use a human being. Humans are dependent on oxygen and nutrients to survive. We are not independent because we require the prior condition of the presence of oxygen and nutrients in order to exist. Therefore a human being is impermanent, not eternal and will undergo change. </p><p> </p><p>Now, my understanding is that one does not need to be a Buddhist to understand the nature of "conditioned". Therefore wisdom is not restricted to any one belief system, nor does it need a belief system at all, rather anyone can come upon such wisdom through their own efforts in meditation and analysis of the universe, not to mention their own persons and the inner workings of the mind. It has been my impression from a past discussion with you that you believe such wisdom to be attained only by an explicit follower of Buddhism given that you believe no other religion to have taught such wisdom. I see that as a strict application of one's own opinion to the detriment of others and a failure to perceive common truths as expressed through different languages, cultures and philosophies. I thus agree with Angelus Silesius when he said: </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>If I am wrong on that front (ie that you do believe that non-Buddhists can attain to such wisdom and do not have a restricted view of "salvation), then please accept my humblest apologies. </p><p> </p><p>I see harmony in apparent opposites because I believe that infinity is the coincidence of opposites and is ineffable and inexpressible. No religion and no human being has or ever can fully comprehended the infinite/unconditioned and so no religion or person can be called superior to another, even though our degrees of understanding differ, we ultimately are all left unknowing. All religions and all people have different approaches to that absolute truth and and all contain elements of divine revelation. However they comprehend that truth to varying degrees but are all united in that none of them has fully comprehended that truth, such that all must be understood in relation to each other. No religion or person has a monopoly on truth. </p><p> </p><p>To use your own words, I believe that for anyone to claim to possess a monopoly on truth, the full knowledge of the "infinite", the inexpressable, the unconditioned, would in fact be "delusion", if one was to label anything with that name.</p><p> </p><p>As I said on a previous thread, May we all mindfully appreciate the rich diversity of every person whom we meet. I end with words from a prevous pope: </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Thank you!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member15, post: 175653, member: 17438"] My dear brother Confused ji, Firstly, do you think that "[I]you continue to be deluded[/I]" is in accordance with "right speech", a keystone moral teaching of the Noble Eightfold Path? I have four Buddhist associates, two Therevada (one a convert from Catholicism to Buddhism) one Mahayana and the other Vajrayana, with whom I have had many a deep, engaging conversation and I can tell you that they have debated with the most entrenched and fundamentalist of Christians who have offended their faith greatly and yet they have never resorted to such language, always replying compassionately, as I would expect a follower of the Buddha to do. I think that you could have phrased your words in a slightly less offensive fashion ie "you continue to misunderstand", or "you continue not to comprehend". To accuse someone of "delusion" is very a severe and harsh accusation to make. Secondly, you know as well I do, dear friend, that I am a theist and so therefore I call the universe "creation". I did not imply that the Buddha belived the universe to be created, I of course have read the [I]Brahmajala Sutta[/I] and its depiction of the 'deluded' ( ;) ) Brahma who thought he was the Creator and convinced others to believe the same, that is the other "gods" who fell from the Abhassara and are reborn into this jhanic heaven. Brahma thought he had created them. When the Earth is formed later, one of these gods dies and is reborn as a human, who becomes an ascetic. Through diligent mental cultivation, he is able to recall just one immediate past life, from which he wrongly concludes that Brahma created humans, and that he is ‘eternal’ and ‘unchanging’. The Buddha thus illustrated how belief and worship of a creator god arose, according to his own understanding. I am aware of this. I therefore know that in Buddhism there is no such thing as "creation" or indeed a "Creator". I think that you have inferred far too much from my own personalized use of the word "creation". Other than that, can you tell me what you think I "got wrong" in my previous post vis-a-vis the Buddha's teachings? I am genuinely interested, in that it would improve my knowledge. I had understood that the key facets of Buddhist doctrine were the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Three Jewels and the Four [or three] marks of existence. Thirdly, [B]an example of conditioned things[/B]? The Buddha taught that all things are conditioned. That each individual part of the [COLOR=black]condition[/COLOR] is "notself". Form is not self. Feeling is not self. Sensation is not self. All of these things are conditioned by other things. Anything that is conditioned is therefore subject to conditions. If it is subject to conditions, then its existence is not independent, but dependent on those conditions and so it is "NotSelf". To be conditioned is thus to be dependent on or influenced by something else. That is my understanding of conditioned. If I am wrong, then please do correct me - but actually tell me where I am wrong this time around :grinningkaur: Your question makes no sense to me since it posits that I would believe some things in the material world not to be conditioned. Nothing is permanent. Everything changes. The only thing that is unconditioned according to Gautama Buddha is Nirvana, so pray tell me why you want me too look around at the universe and pick out one thing from everything that is conditioned? But if you want an example, then why not use a human being. Humans are dependent on oxygen and nutrients to survive. We are not independent because we require the prior condition of the presence of oxygen and nutrients in order to exist. Therefore a human being is impermanent, not eternal and will undergo change. Now, my understanding is that one does not need to be a Buddhist to understand the nature of "conditioned". Therefore wisdom is not restricted to any one belief system, nor does it need a belief system at all, rather anyone can come upon such wisdom through their own efforts in meditation and analysis of the universe, not to mention their own persons and the inner workings of the mind. It has been my impression from a past discussion with you that you believe such wisdom to be attained only by an explicit follower of Buddhism given that you believe no other religion to have taught such wisdom. I see that as a strict application of one's own opinion to the detriment of others and a failure to perceive common truths as expressed through different languages, cultures and philosophies. I thus agree with Angelus Silesius when he said: If I am wrong on that front (ie that you do believe that non-Buddhists can attain to such wisdom and do not have a restricted view of "salvation), then please accept my humblest apologies. I see harmony in apparent opposites because I believe that infinity is the coincidence of opposites and is ineffable and inexpressible. No religion and no human being has or ever can fully comprehended the infinite/unconditioned and so no religion or person can be called superior to another, even though our degrees of understanding differ, we ultimately are all left unknowing. All religions and all people have different approaches to that absolute truth and and all contain elements of divine revelation. However they comprehend that truth to varying degrees but are all united in that none of them has fully comprehended that truth, such that all must be understood in relation to each other. No religion or person has a monopoly on truth. To use your own words, I believe that for anyone to claim to possess a monopoly on truth, the full knowledge of the "infinite", the inexpressable, the unconditioned, would in fact be "delusion", if one was to label anything with that name. As I said on a previous thread, May we all mindfully appreciate the rich diversity of every person whom we meet. I end with words from a prevous pope: Thank you! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Do You Believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji Became MUKT/”got Salvation”?
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top