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Sikh History & Heritage
Did Guru Nanak Accurately Predict The Mughal Invasion?
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<blockquote data-quote="anon" data-source="post: 205974" data-attributes="member: 19291"><p>Thank You very much for the response. You sound like someone who is well educated in Indian History Sikh History and Bani, and i'm hoping that I can enhance my own knowledge in these areas. The line from bani that I reference above:</p><p></p><p><strong>"ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ" </strong><em>(Which I will now refer to as "The Tilang, First Mehl Line" )</em></p><p></p><p>was bought to my attention from McLoeds book on the life of Guru Nanak. The details of Babur's invasion that I have read have all been from wikipedia, not exactly the best source, and I assume your sources are better. </p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff8000">FIRST PREDICTION</span></strong></p><p></p><p>You said that in 1526 Babur Conquered India, but the The Tilang, First Mehl Line does not specifically make a prediction for the date for Babur's Conquering of India. I have read that many Janam Sakhis put Guru Nanak in Eminabad (Saidpur) at the time of writing Tilang, First Mehl and on Wikipedia it says that Babur reached Chenab in 1519. Using google maps it looks like Saidpur (now Eminabad) is quite close to Chenab so</p><p></p><p><strong>Did Babur invaded Saidpur in 1521 (Bikharmee 1578) as part of a campaign to conquer more land? </strong><em>(I will now refer to this as question 1)</em></p><p></p><p>If we <u>assume</u> that The Tilang, First Mehl Line contains two predictions, and that the first prediction is given by the first half of the line (<em>"Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.)"</em> English translation of the first half of The Tilang, First Mehl Line) then one interpretation of this first half of the line could be:</p><p></p><p><strong>"The Mughals (Babur) will come to Saidpur (now Eminabad) in 1521 (Bikharmee78)"</strong> <em>(I will now refer to this as prediction 1)</em></p><p></p><p>If the answer to <em>question 1 </em>is "yes" then <em>prediction 1</em> is true, if the aswer to <em>question 1</em> is "no" then <em>prediction 1</em> is false. We can work out the answer to question 1 by aswering the following question:</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>What exactly Babur was doing in 1521? </strong><em>(I will refer to this as qeustion 2)</em></p><p></p><p>I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on question 2 or perhaps refer me to some sources.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: #ff8000"><strong>SECOND PREDICTION</strong></span></p><p></p><p>You also say that Hamaoun lost in 1532 and went back to Afghanistan, but again on wikipedia it mentions that Hamayun lost the <strong><em>Battle of Kanauj </em></strong>in 1540, this was east of Agra. Wikipedia also says that Hamayun crossed the Indus in retreat in 1543. Based on these wikipedia dates, it wouldn't make sense to me that Hamayun would have retreated back to Afghanistan in 1532. From these wikipedia dates it is clear that Hamayun lost control of an important part of his empire by 1540 and, although I don't know much about the seats of power in Medieval India, I would have thought the loss of Agra at the <strong>Battle of Kanauj </strong>would have represented the loss of India by the Mughal empire.</p><p></p><p>If we interpret the second half of the The Tilang, First Mehl Line (In english this has been translated to "they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.)") then it can be interpreted as the following prediction:</p><p></p><p><strong>"The Mughal's (Babur's heir) will depart India in 1540"</strong> <em>(I will call this Prediction 2)</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Then p<em>rediction 2</em> will have been correct if we assume that losing Agra equated to the the departure of the Mughal's from India</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #ff8000"><strong>PERSONAL VIEW/AGENDA</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff8000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">I don't think my own personal view is relevant to this discussion at all but given the discussion about what constitutes a Miracle, I feel that if i don't put this in the discussion will move into the inevitable direction of debating the definition of the word miracle. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">This section of SPN is dedicated to Sikh History, and I regret using the word "Miracle". What I wanted to discuss was a line (T<em>he Tilang, First Mehl Line)</em> which many people have interpreted as a prediction of events that took place after that line was written. The events that people claim this line alluded to have occurred, so what I was hoping to do was see if this line that people read as a prediction is acurte when it is read as a prediction.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">For me this is important because to some people the accurate prediction of future events constitutes a miracle. To me it doesn't, but to others it does. <u><strong>Some people</strong></u> (not <em>all</em> people and clearly not the majority of posters on this thread) may call themselves a Sikh because the believe that the Guru's were capable of Miracles such as predicting the future and so if the predictions of T<em>he Tilang, First Mehl Line</em> can be verified or falsified by examining events that had actually taken place, their faith in Sikhism may also be strengthened or weakened.</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">"But anon, why does it matter to you what others beleive?" i hear you ask. It matters because I believe that the truth is important. If someone believes a statement (eg circumcision can cure HIV, the moon revolves around the earth) is true, then it is important to examine their statements so that we can tell them that they are right or wrong, and so that we can modify our own beliefs based on the statements that tell us.</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">I personally do not believe that Guru Nanak was capable of accurately predicting the dates of invasion and retreat of the Mughal Army, however I think it is important to examine the possibility that he was capable of this using the same logic and approach as someone who does believe this. Further more even if the predictions of <em>The Tilang, First Mehl Line </em>are correct and were written before 1521 I am more inclined to believe that it was luck, rather than the power of the divine that achieved the correct result.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff8000">ASSUMPTIONS THAT NEED TO BE MADE FOR THE PREDICTIONS TO BE TRUE</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff8000"></span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #000000">A number of assumptions must be made in order to make the following conclusion: </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><strong>"Guru Nanak accurately predicted the Invasion of the Mughal army and Retreat of the Mughal Army in the line: <strong>ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ</strong>" </strong> (I will now refer to this as The Conclusion)</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">the <u>Assumptions</u> are as follows. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">1) "</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up." Is an accurate and translation of the line ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ. </span></p><p></p><p>2) The use of the number 78 refers to the date Bikhramee 1571 (1521 AD) and 97 refers to Bikhrame 1597 (1540 AD)</p><p></p><p>3) "Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.)" can be interpreted as the prediction that: The Mughals (Babur) will come to Saidpur (now Eminabad) in 1521 (Bikharmee78)</p><p></p><p>4) Babur Invaded Saidpur (Now eminabad) in 1521</p><p></p><p>5) "they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.)" can be interpreted as the prediction that: "The Mughal's (Babur's heir) will depart India in 1540"</p><p></p><p>6) The loss of Agra by an empire can be equated to the Mughal's losing India.</p><p></p><p>I personally find the Assumption 3 and Assumption 5 to be weak, especially because the meaning of Gurbani is vague and open to interpretation. <strong>For this reason, I would reject the conclusion</strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="anon, post: 205974, member: 19291"] Thank You very much for the response. You sound like someone who is well educated in Indian History Sikh History and Bani, and i'm hoping that I can enhance my own knowledge in these areas. The line from bani that I reference above: [B]"ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ" [/B][I](Which I will now refer to as "The Tilang, First Mehl Line" )[/I] was bought to my attention from McLoeds book on the life of Guru Nanak. The details of Babur's invasion that I have read have all been from wikipedia, not exactly the best source, and I assume your sources are better. [B][COLOR=#ff8000]FIRST PREDICTION[/COLOR][/B] You said that in 1526 Babur Conquered India, but the The Tilang, First Mehl Line does not specifically make a prediction for the date for Babur's Conquering of India. I have read that many Janam Sakhis put Guru Nanak in Eminabad (Saidpur) at the time of writing Tilang, First Mehl and on Wikipedia it says that Babur reached Chenab in 1519. Using google maps it looks like Saidpur (now Eminabad) is quite close to Chenab so [U][B][/B][/U] [B]Did Babur invaded Saidpur in 1521 (Bikharmee 1578) as part of a campaign to conquer more land? [/B][I](I will now refer to this as question 1)[/I] [B][/B] If we [U]assume[/U] that The Tilang, First Mehl Line contains two predictions, and that the first prediction is given by the first half of the line ([I]"Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.)"[/I] English translation of the first half of The Tilang, First Mehl Line) then one interpretation of this first half of the line could be: [B]"The Mughals (Babur) will come to Saidpur (now Eminabad) in 1521 (Bikharmee78)"[/B] [I](I will now refer to this as prediction 1)[/I] If the answer to [I]question 1 [/I]is "yes" then [I]prediction 1[/I] is true, if the aswer to [I]question 1[/I] is "no" then [I]prediction 1[/I] is false. We can work out the answer to question 1 by aswering the following question: [B] What exactly Babur was doing in 1521? [/B][I](I will refer to this as qeustion 2)[/I] I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on question 2 or perhaps refer me to some sources. [COLOR=#ff8000][B]SECOND PREDICTION[/B][/COLOR] You also say that Hamaoun lost in 1532 and went back to Afghanistan, but again on wikipedia it mentions that Hamayun lost the [B][I]Battle of Kanauj [/I][/B]in 1540, this was east of Agra. Wikipedia also says that Hamayun crossed the Indus in retreat in 1543. Based on these wikipedia dates, it wouldn't make sense to me that Hamayun would have retreated back to Afghanistan in 1532. From these wikipedia dates it is clear that Hamayun lost control of an important part of his empire by 1540 and, although I don't know much about the seats of power in Medieval India, I would have thought the loss of Agra at the [B]Battle of Kanauj [/B]would have represented the loss of India by the Mughal empire. If we interpret the second half of the The Tilang, First Mehl Line (In english this has been translated to "they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.)") then it can be interpreted as the following prediction: [B]"The Mughal's (Babur's heir) will depart India in 1540"[/B] [I](I will call this Prediction 2) [/I] Then p[I]rediction 2[/I] will have been correct if we assume that losing Agra equated to the the departure of the Mughal's from India [COLOR=#ff8000][B]PERSONAL VIEW/AGENDA[/B] [B][/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000]I don't think my own personal view is relevant to this discussion at all but given the discussion about what constitutes a Miracle, I feel that if i don't put this in the discussion will move into the inevitable direction of debating the definition of the word miracle. This section of SPN is dedicated to Sikh History, and I regret using the word "Miracle". What I wanted to discuss was a line (T[I]he Tilang, First Mehl Line)[/I] which many people have interpreted as a prediction of events that took place after that line was written. The events that people claim this line alluded to have occurred, so what I was hoping to do was see if this line that people read as a prediction is acurte when it is read as a prediction. For me this is important because to some people the accurate prediction of future events constitutes a miracle. To me it doesn't, but to others it does. [U][B]Some people[/B][/U] (not [I]all[/I] people and clearly not the majority of posters on this thread) may call themselves a Sikh because the believe that the Guru's were capable of Miracles such as predicting the future and so if the predictions of T[I]he Tilang, First Mehl Line[/I] can be verified or falsified by examining events that had actually taken place, their faith in Sikhism may also be strengthened or weakened.[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)] "But anon, why does it matter to you what others beleive?" i hear you ask. It matters because I believe that the truth is important. If someone believes a statement (eg circumcision can cure HIV, the moon revolves around the earth) is true, then it is important to examine their statements so that we can tell them that they are right or wrong, and so that we can modify our own beliefs based on the statements that tell us. [/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000]I personally do not believe that Guru Nanak was capable of accurately predicting the dates of invasion and retreat of the Mughal Army, however I think it is important to examine the possibility that he was capable of this using the same logic and approach as someone who does believe this. Further more even if the predictions of [I]The Tilang, First Mehl Line [/I]are correct and were written before 1521 I am more inclined to believe that it was luck, rather than the power of the divine that achieved the correct result. [/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#ff8000]ASSUMPTIONS THAT NEED TO BE MADE FOR THE PREDICTIONS TO BE TRUE [/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#000000]A number of assumptions must be made in order to make the following conclusion: [B]"Guru Nanak accurately predicted the Invasion of the Mughal army and Retreat of the Mughal Army in the line: [B]ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ[/B]" [/B] (I will now refer to this as The Conclusion) the [U]Assumptions[/U] are as follows. 1) "[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up." Is an accurate and translation of the line ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ. [/COLOR] 2) The use of the number 78 refers to the date Bikhramee 1571 (1521 AD) and 97 refers to Bikhrame 1597 (1540 AD) 3) "Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.)" can be interpreted as the prediction that: The Mughals (Babur) will come to Saidpur (now Eminabad) in 1521 (Bikharmee78) 4) Babur Invaded Saidpur (Now eminabad) in 1521 5) "they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.)" can be interpreted as the prediction that: "The Mughal's (Babur's heir) will depart India in 1540" 6) The loss of Agra by an empire can be equated to the Mughal's losing India. I personally find the Assumption 3 and Assumption 5 to be weak, especially because the meaning of Gurbani is vague and open to interpretation. [B]For this reason, I would reject the conclusion[/B] [/QUOTE]
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