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Punjab, Punjabi, Punjabiyat
Devanagari As A Writing System For Punjabi: Plus Or Minus For Punjabi?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ambarsaria" data-source="post: 188697" data-attributes="member: 14194"><p>I believe in this thread and topic we need to be cognizant of at least four possible aspects of Punjabi language.<p style="margin-left: 20px">1. [/FONT]Punjabi language as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Gurmukhi script</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">2. [/FONT]Punjabi language as learned and used in Educational and cultural life by people based on the usage and understanding of Gurmukhi script</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">3. [/FONT]Punjabi language as used by majority of Punjabi speaking people in the world using Shahmukhi script</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">4. [/FONT]Users or less versatile all others who may want to understand, learn or otherwise relate to Punjabi language, culture and works including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>There are some fundamental principles we need to note which have little to do with the conflicts or deficiencies between scripts and languages.</p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You cannot completely and truly 100% carry phonetics of one script over to another script</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"> i. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to Devnagri</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> ii. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to English</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"> iii. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If such is not possible then invariably the vocabularies, grammars and construct would show small or large differences depending on subject matter, the complexity of a work, say Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and so on</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"> i. [/FONT]As an immediate application of this, one must conclude that you cannot take Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and using a different script, other than Gurmukhi, carry the teachings of our Guru ji’s unadulterated</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"> ii. [/FONT]It may sound sexy and close to use English, Devnagri, etc., for those who cannot read Gurmukhi, but it leaves Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji open to much mis-use, mis-direction, malice even though many will not be so guilty of this</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">1. [/FONT]But the few with power to control, preach, mis-direct can very easily exploit this.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">2. [/FONT]Such need to be watched and challenged if you love Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru ji’s works and teachings.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">a. [/FONT]This is the minimum a Sikh should do.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> </p> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Example: </strong>Thanks to Guglani ji for starting this thread and Dalsingh1zero1 to raise the matter with UCLA.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> </p> </p><p>So let us go back to points at the beginning.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>1. [/FONT]</strong><strong>Punjabi language as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Gurmukhi script</strong></p><p> </p><p> Folks if you love to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and respectfully learn teachings of our Guru ji’s, you have no option to but learn Gurmukhi script based Punjabi language.</p><p> </p><p> You can of course start with just ability to read translations, ability to understand some vocabulary and grammar, visibility into possible environs of the Punjab as to visualize Guru ji’s times. But if you want to go beyond, Gurmukhi and Punjabi study is essential.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>2. [/FONT]</strong><strong> Punjabi language as learned and used in Educational and cultural life by people based on the usage and understanding of Gurmukhi script</strong></p><p> </p><p> This is fundamental to Sikhism as a requirement in 1. If Punjabis in Punjab, the state created on the basis of linguistics of Punjabi usage, forget elements why Punjab, then they cannot consider themselves to be truly Punjabi. As in other posts and over the Internet, such people are shams thinking Hindi is sexy as they conjure of weird pronunciations to appease their Hindi based handlers. It speaks of utter insecurity, a concept not the foundation of Sikhism but the opposite of “Chardhi Kalaa” or uplifted demeanor. Such insecurity is furthest from Sikhism. We only need to remember the sacrifices of many, who gave us the opportunity in this day and age to have a choice to be Sikhs complete or aspiring.</p><p> </p><p> Don’t let your insecurities or manipulations from the powerful and mighty sway you away from your roots.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>3. [/FONT]</strong><strong> Punjabi language as used by majority of Punjabi speaking people in the world using Shahmukhi script</strong></p><p> </p><p> Our brothers and sisters in West Punjab are also facing grave challenges. Shahmukhi based Punjabi is under severe attack from so called modern Urdu users with emphasis on Arabics. Same dichotomy as Gurmukhi-Devnagri versus Shahmukhi-Arabic.</p><p> </p><p> We must also recognize that culturally, vocabulary, grammar similarities of pre-partitioned Punjab between Shahmukhi-Gurmukhi were much less emphasized as the beauty was in co or synergistic living of Punjabis. Most of our forefathers, two or three generations removed, perhaps were much more knowledgeable in Shahmukhi script based Punjabi versus Gurmukhi based Punjabi. Bur the spoken or read from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji sounded all the same to this class of Punjabis. To all Sikhs, Hindus or Muslims in greater Punjab.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>4. [/FONT]</strong><strong> Users or less versatile all others who may want to understand, learn or otherwise relate to Punjabi language, culture and works including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji</strong></p><p> </p><p> Any discussion of Devnagri or other scripts needs to be confined in this space. There are actually positive attributes that can be harvested. If someone not very close to Gurmukhi/Punjabi wants to learn the first steps of speaking Punjabi, other scripts known to such person may come of use up to a point. This could also be of use in making nearly sounded phonetics compositions of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But there should be clear warning and notes as to the less than accurate effort in this regard. The end objective is, people being encouraged to develop their understanding further with Gurmukhi/Punjabi.</p><p> </p><p> In this regard translations are also a tool. If we want to be forward looking from Sikhism aspects of Gurmukhi/Punjabi, then we need to encourage better translations into as many languages with as many scripts as possible. Let us see how two of the world’s biggest religions tackle this.</p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Christianity</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The URL purports availability of the Bible in 72 languages, <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/" target="_blank">http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/</a></li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Islam<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The URL purports Quran in many languages including Hindi, <a href="http://tafheemulquran.webs.com/quranvariouslanguages.htm" target="_blank">http://tafheemulquran.webs.com/quranvariouslanguages.htm</a></li> </ul></li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Of fascination here is a wonderfully worded note as,</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Important Note</strong></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"> We encourage you to download the Quran in your native tongue to improve your own understanding however please bear the following in mind when reading the Hindi translation of the Quran. The translator has attempted his/her best in translating the Quran from Arabic to Hindi to the best of his/her ability. The translation is limited to his/her understanding of Arabic and his/her command of the Hindi Language. The Hindi translation of the Quran should only be used as a rough translation and should never be considered to be the exact word or alternative to reading and understanding the Arabic Quran. The Arabic language is very old and complex whose roots can be traced back over 5,000 years. A single word in Arabic can mean numerous things simultaneously thus making it extremely difficult to capture the essence of the Quran with most languages proving to be deficient in having adequate words to compensate.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sikhism</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Let there be wonderful translation with utmost accuracy accompanied by a note like one in Islam example above.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Let all things Punjabi/Gurmukhi be injected into all languages and scripts while never forgetting Gurmukhi/Punjabi original combo.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>What you think and I stand corrected.</p><p> </p><p> Sat Sri Akal.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ambarsaria, post: 188697, member: 14194"] I believe in this thread and topic we need to be cognizant of at least four possible aspects of Punjabi language.[INDENT]1. [/FONT]Punjabi language as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Gurmukhi script [/INDENT][INDENT]2. [/FONT]Punjabi language as learned and used in Educational and cultural life by people based on the usage and understanding of Gurmukhi script [/INDENT][INDENT]3. [/FONT]Punjabi language as used by majority of Punjabi speaking people in the world using Shahmukhi script [/INDENT][INDENT]4. [/FONT]Users or less versatile all others who may want to understand, learn or otherwise relate to Punjabi language, culture and works including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji [/INDENT]There are some fundamental principles we need to note which have little to do with the conflicts or deficiencies between scripts and languages. [LIST] [*]You cannot completely and truly 100% carry phonetics of one script over to another script [/LIST] [INDENT][INDENT] i. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to Devnagri ii. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to English iii. [/FONT]Be it Gurmukhi to Shahmukhi [/INDENT][/INDENT] [LIST] [*]If such is not possible then invariably the vocabularies, grammars and construct would show small or large differences depending on subject matter, the complexity of a work, say Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and so on [/LIST] [INDENT][INDENT] i. [/FONT]As an immediate application of this, one must conclude that you cannot take Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and using a different script, other than Gurmukhi, carry the teachings of our Guru ji’s unadulterated [/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] ii. [/FONT]It may sound sexy and close to use English, Devnagri, etc., for those who cannot read Gurmukhi, but it leaves Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji open to much mis-use, mis-direction, malice even though many will not be so guilty of this [/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]1. [/FONT]But the few with power to control, preach, mis-direct can very easily exploit this. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]2. [/FONT]Such need to be watched and challenged if you love Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our Guru ji’s works and teachings. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]a. [/FONT]This is the minimum a Sikh should do. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][B]Example: [/B]Thanks to Guglani ji for starting this thread and Dalsingh1zero1 to raise the matter with UCLA. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]So let us go back to points at the beginning. [B]1. [/FONT][/B][B]Punjabi language as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Gurmukhi script[/B] Folks if you love to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and respectfully learn teachings of our Guru ji’s, you have no option to but learn Gurmukhi script based Punjabi language. You can of course start with just ability to read translations, ability to understand some vocabulary and grammar, visibility into possible environs of the Punjab as to visualize Guru ji’s times. But if you want to go beyond, Gurmukhi and Punjabi study is essential. [B]2. [/FONT][/B][B] Punjabi language as learned and used in Educational and cultural life by people based on the usage and understanding of Gurmukhi script[/B] This is fundamental to Sikhism as a requirement in 1. If Punjabis in Punjab, the state created on the basis of linguistics of Punjabi usage, forget elements why Punjab, then they cannot consider themselves to be truly Punjabi. As in other posts and over the Internet, such people are shams thinking Hindi is sexy as they conjure of weird pronunciations to appease their Hindi based handlers. It speaks of utter insecurity, a concept not the foundation of Sikhism but the opposite of “Chardhi Kalaa” or uplifted demeanor. Such insecurity is furthest from Sikhism. We only need to remember the sacrifices of many, who gave us the opportunity in this day and age to have a choice to be Sikhs complete or aspiring. Don’t let your insecurities or manipulations from the powerful and mighty sway you away from your roots. [B]3. [/FONT][/B][B] Punjabi language as used by majority of Punjabi speaking people in the world using Shahmukhi script[/B] Our brothers and sisters in West Punjab are also facing grave challenges. Shahmukhi based Punjabi is under severe attack from so called modern Urdu users with emphasis on Arabics. Same dichotomy as Gurmukhi-Devnagri versus Shahmukhi-Arabic. We must also recognize that culturally, vocabulary, grammar similarities of pre-partitioned Punjab between Shahmukhi-Gurmukhi were much less emphasized as the beauty was in co or synergistic living of Punjabis. Most of our forefathers, two or three generations removed, perhaps were much more knowledgeable in Shahmukhi script based Punjabi versus Gurmukhi based Punjabi. Bur the spoken or read from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji sounded all the same to this class of Punjabis. To all Sikhs, Hindus or Muslims in greater Punjab. [B]4. [/FONT][/B][B] Users or less versatile all others who may want to understand, learn or otherwise relate to Punjabi language, culture and works including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji[/B] Any discussion of Devnagri or other scripts needs to be confined in this space. There are actually positive attributes that can be harvested. If someone not very close to Gurmukhi/Punjabi wants to learn the first steps of speaking Punjabi, other scripts known to such person may come of use up to a point. This could also be of use in making nearly sounded phonetics compositions of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But there should be clear warning and notes as to the less than accurate effort in this regard. The end objective is, people being encouraged to develop their understanding further with Gurmukhi/Punjabi. In this regard translations are also a tool. If we want to be forward looking from Sikhism aspects of Gurmukhi/Punjabi, then we need to encourage better translations into as many languages with as many scripts as possible. Let us see how two of the world’s biggest religions tackle this. [LIST] [*]Christianity [/LIST] [INDENT] [LIST] [*]The URL purports availability of the Bible in 72 languages, [URL]http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/[/URL] [/LIST] [/INDENT] [LIST] [*]Islam [LIST] [*]The URL purports Quran in many languages including Hindi, [URL]http://tafheemulquran.webs.com/quranvariouslanguages.htm[/URL] [/LIST] [/LIST] [INDENT] [LIST] [*]Of fascination here is a wonderfully worded note as, [/LIST] [/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][B]Important Note[/B] [/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] We encourage you to download the Quran in your native tongue to improve your own understanding however please bear the following in mind when reading the Hindi translation of the Quran. The translator has attempted his/her best in translating the Quran from Arabic to Hindi to the best of his/her ability. The translation is limited to his/her understanding of Arabic and his/her command of the Hindi Language. The Hindi translation of the Quran should only be used as a rough translation and should never be considered to be the exact word or alternative to reading and understanding the Arabic Quran. The Arabic language is very old and complex whose roots can be traced back over 5,000 years. A single word in Arabic can mean numerous things simultaneously thus making it extremely difficult to capture the essence of the Quran with most languages proving to be deficient in having adequate words to compensate. [/INDENT][/INDENT] [LIST] [*]Sikhism [/LIST] [INDENT]o [/FONT]Let there be wonderful translation with utmost accuracy accompanied by a note like one in Islam example above. [/INDENT][INDENT]o [/FONT]Let all things Punjabi/Gurmukhi be injected into all languages and scripts while never forgetting Gurmukhi/Punjabi original combo. [/INDENT]What you think and I stand corrected. Sat Sri Akal. [/QUOTE]
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Devanagari As A Writing System For Punjabi: Plus Or Minus For Punjabi?
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