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Buddhism And Vegetarianism: Would Siddhartha Eat Meat?
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 130202" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Amanji,</p><p></p><p>If I may comment on this article that you have posted.</p><p></p><p>I’d normally just ignore it, but since there is a chance that some readers here would buy into the argument made by the author, I think it would help if I offered my own arguments at this point. Besides what I say applies not only within the context of Buddhism, but also outside of it.</p><p>Quote:</p><p><<The simplest (and perhaps most satisfying) answer is yes. I believe that if he lived in today's world Sid would be a vegetarian.>></p><p></p><p>Firstly, Sid was someone who was ripe to become self-enlightened which is leagues ahead of someone having the potential to also become enlightened, but who would need to first hear about the Truth in that particular lifetime. An average person with confidence in the Buddha’s teachings and who’d need to go through uncountable lifetimes before attaining, such person would know not to imagine how a Buddha-to-be thinks, let alone start comparing himself to him.</p><p></p><p>------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p><<The historical Buddha was pretty clear that the first of the five main precepts of his disciples should be "I undertake a vow to abstain from taking life."</p><p>The surprising thing is that the no-meat stance is not generally agreed upon, despite that precept. Theravadin schools of Buddhism say that the Buddha allowed his monastic students to eat pork, chicken and beef if the animal was not killed for the purpose of providing food specifically for them. >></p><p></p><p>Ordering someone to kill is as good as doing it oneself. When a monk accepts meat and knows that it was killed just to serve him, he’d be ignoring the fact of this precept about abstaining from taking life when in fact it is his duty to teach the lay follower about these things. But meat is food and eating is not killing. </p><p></p><p>If the monk does not know nor suspect anything about the food served, should he be encouraged to speculate about anything else in this regard? The aim of that which he is supposed to give the lay follower in return, namely the teachings, is meant to arouse not only generosity and morality, but more importantly, right understanding. If he knows that the lay follower concerned has killed in order to serve him, by refusing the food, he’d be reminding about morality and provide opportunity for that person to ask about other things. If on the other hand, there is no cause to suspect anything about the food offered and yet the monk does not accept it just because it is meat, this is neither a lesson in morality nor encouraging of right understanding. </p><p></p><p>This being that in this situation, the monk would not be addressing anything which constitutes ‘intention’ on the part of the lay follower. In fact he himself would be expressing lack of courtesy and also not appreciating what must be good intention on the part of the lay person connected with the act of offering food. Indeed this lay person likely had many good intentions in relation to the whole activity, beginning with when buying the meat and ingredient required, the care needed in preparing the dish and that which is involved in finally serving the food. </p><p></p><p>And how is becoming a vegetarian a help to anyone else? And for one’s own self, other than health, is there any good reason for refraining from eating meat? </p><p></p><p>When one has decided to become a vegetarian for example, because one believes that it makes the heart / mind purer, is this right cause for the result intended? Purity of mind happens momentarily during such times as restraint from killing, lying, stealing, adultery etc., not from any decision not to eat meat. In fact one can see that the thinking associated here likely leads one away from giving due consideration to that which really matters, namely that one refrains from killing, stealing, lying etc. at times when one otherwise is tempted to do so. And it is with right understanding about this during such instances that moral purity is developed. </p><p></p><p>What is worse is that, such a person falls prey to what the Buddha identifies as Silabbatta paramasa, translated as “attachment to mere rules and ritual”, the root meaning of which is derived from ‘sila’ or morality.</p><p></p><p>And this is the problem. The attachment is so great and much worse than towards tastes or sights and sounds that it is in fact considered a ‘fetter’ which not only leads one away from the possibility of developing right understanding, but also to many other mischief, such as being ‘self-righteous’, where you’d probably see fingers pointing but no attempt at making the other person understand the harm of killing, and so on. Most of the time however, people just go about feeling that they are doing the right thing and increasing not only attachment and ignorance, but worse, wrong understanding. This latter is what leads although probably only in another lifetime, to such things as animal sacrifice or hearing a voice in one’s head saying that one would need to offer one’s son’s life to God in order that he may then send rain.....</p><p></p><p>Given the fact that it is from one’s own mind that any conclusion is drawn about the world out there, the imperative at any time is to guard this mind from intentions associated with greed, hatred and delusion. When eating food, whether this is in the case of a vegan or non-vegan, greed is unavoidable but can be known for what it is. The likeliness however, that a vegan who is involved in the kind of thoughts that he has, including giving importance to the outward behaviour , that right consideration is given to the quality of mind and any intentions, is quiet low. So while the meat eater who is rid of the kind of clutter is open to the possibility of right understanding about his own attachments to food, the vegan unwittingly not only can develop more attachment to his menu, but also to the ‘idea’ of being a vegan. </p><p></p><p>And then there is the idea held by some that goes something like this: “If we do not eat meat, we are in effect discouraging killing in the world”. </p><p></p><p>This again is wrong thinking, in fact a proliferation of view. </p><p>Anyone who has had any glimpse into his own unwholesome tendencies would know that there is a long way to go and much work to be done in this regard. He’d know that it is not enough to have the precepts as guideline and that one is forever forgetful. The attention is then drawn towards developing one’s own mind and away from such things as trying to arrange the world. It is sheer ignorance hence which is behind such thoughts as being a vegan thinking that this would have a positive effect upon others in that they would then stop killing. And besides, if there is any understanding on the part of the individual concerned, he’d see that any outward ceasing of killing, such as that which could happen if there was a law prohibiting, this does not address the *real* cause, which is the tendency in each individual, to kill due to the accumulated greed, hatred and delusion. </p><p></p><p>So again in this case, the vegan does not address what is really important and ends up increasing attachment and ignorance. And although he may not go out ‘preaching’ to the world his ideas, one can see that arrogance must also be involved in all this.</p><p>---------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p><<And that was just for monastics; lay people could eat whatever sort of elephant or horse meat they could find.>> </p><p></p><p>This is not correct. Killing is killing and is wrong no matter what the circumstance. Yes, as monks, doing any kind of wrong has greater karmic result given his position. When it comes to eating, the kind of food is same, although not all meats are suitable in terms of health and would therefore be advised against. </p><p></p><p>---------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p><< So to be clear: the act of eating meat was deemed karmically neutral. The act of killing or having something killed for you to eat was karmically negative.>></p><p></p><p>No such thing as karmically neutral here, eating is always with greed for most of us, and although this does not constitute ‘evil deed’ hence giving rise to bad results, it nevertheless accumulates. </p><p></p><p>----------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p><< Over time though many savvy consumers have raised a finger and said, "But what about supply and demand?" At first it may appear that the Buddha did not buy into that particular logic when making this decision.>></p><p></p><p>Of course he did not buy into any such ideas. He understood clearly while the others were lost in thought proliferation and who needed to be engaged in some form of self-indulgence. </p><p></p><p>-----------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p><< Since alms were basically leftovers from lay households it was argued that the meat was not directly linked to the monks or nuns' karma. It's as if I showed up at your home yesterday and you gave me whatever leftover turkey you were putting in the fridge. By this argument I would take whatever you gave me and not be karmically responsible.>></p><p></p><p>Firstly, if anything, the lay followers would be the ones eating any leftovers that were intended to be offered. It is with generosity, kindness and respect that ideally these offerings are made. In return the monks teach the Dharma, which is the greatest of gifts ever can be given. Let us not pollute this particular relationship with the crap that we entertain due to our own lack of understanding! </p><p></p><p>------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p><< Some people may find that argument convincing. I myself think that it's a bit of a copout; if I eat the last of your turkey who's to say you won't wake up the next day, wish it were still there, and go out and get another one?>></p><p></p><p>Your argument is based on wrong premises. But what is worse is that you entertain the ideas that you do, which leads to much more harm in the long run than the killing that you seem to talk against but only ever indirectly address. Your problem is the attachment to the idea of being a vegan. In this regard I wonder if you’ve ever had thoughts about the greater number of beings (insects) killed in the process of growing one vegetable?</p><p></p><p>-------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p><< As with everything on this spiritual path we need to determine what makes sense for us.>></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is perhaps your error. You think as you do from under the mud that you are sunk in.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 130202, member: 586"] Amanji, If I may comment on this article that you have posted. I’d normally just ignore it, but since there is a chance that some readers here would buy into the argument made by the author, I think it would help if I offered my own arguments at this point. Besides what I say applies not only within the context of Buddhism, but also outside of it. Quote: <<The simplest (and perhaps most satisfying) answer is yes. I believe that if he lived in today's world Sid would be a vegetarian.>> Firstly, Sid was someone who was ripe to become self-enlightened which is leagues ahead of someone having the potential to also become enlightened, but who would need to first hear about the Truth in that particular lifetime. An average person with confidence in the Buddha’s teachings and who’d need to go through uncountable lifetimes before attaining, such person would know not to imagine how a Buddha-to-be thinks, let alone start comparing himself to him. ------------ Quote: <<The historical Buddha was pretty clear that the first of the five main precepts of his disciples should be "I undertake a vow to abstain from taking life." The surprising thing is that the no-meat stance is not generally agreed upon, despite that precept. Theravadin schools of Buddhism say that the Buddha allowed his monastic students to eat pork, chicken and beef if the animal was not killed for the purpose of providing food specifically for them. >> Ordering someone to kill is as good as doing it oneself. When a monk accepts meat and knows that it was killed just to serve him, he’d be ignoring the fact of this precept about abstaining from taking life when in fact it is his duty to teach the lay follower about these things. But meat is food and eating is not killing. If the monk does not know nor suspect anything about the food served, should he be encouraged to speculate about anything else in this regard? The aim of that which he is supposed to give the lay follower in return, namely the teachings, is meant to arouse not only generosity and morality, but more importantly, right understanding. If he knows that the lay follower concerned has killed in order to serve him, by refusing the food, he’d be reminding about morality and provide opportunity for that person to ask about other things. If on the other hand, there is no cause to suspect anything about the food offered and yet the monk does not accept it just because it is meat, this is neither a lesson in morality nor encouraging of right understanding. This being that in this situation, the monk would not be addressing anything which constitutes ‘intention’ on the part of the lay follower. In fact he himself would be expressing lack of courtesy and also not appreciating what must be good intention on the part of the lay person connected with the act of offering food. Indeed this lay person likely had many good intentions in relation to the whole activity, beginning with when buying the meat and ingredient required, the care needed in preparing the dish and that which is involved in finally serving the food. And how is becoming a vegetarian a help to anyone else? And for one’s own self, other than health, is there any good reason for refraining from eating meat? When one has decided to become a vegetarian for example, because one believes that it makes the heart / mind purer, is this right cause for the result intended? Purity of mind happens momentarily during such times as restraint from killing, lying, stealing, adultery etc., not from any decision not to eat meat. In fact one can see that the thinking associated here likely leads one away from giving due consideration to that which really matters, namely that one refrains from killing, stealing, lying etc. at times when one otherwise is tempted to do so. And it is with right understanding about this during such instances that moral purity is developed. What is worse is that, such a person falls prey to what the Buddha identifies as Silabbatta paramasa, translated as “attachment to mere rules and ritual”, the root meaning of which is derived from ‘sila’ or morality. And this is the problem. The attachment is so great and much worse than towards tastes or sights and sounds that it is in fact considered a ‘fetter’ which not only leads one away from the possibility of developing right understanding, but also to many other mischief, such as being ‘self-righteous’, where you’d probably see fingers pointing but no attempt at making the other person understand the harm of killing, and so on. Most of the time however, people just go about feeling that they are doing the right thing and increasing not only attachment and ignorance, but worse, wrong understanding. This latter is what leads although probably only in another lifetime, to such things as animal sacrifice or hearing a voice in one’s head saying that one would need to offer one’s son’s life to God in order that he may then send rain..... Given the fact that it is from one’s own mind that any conclusion is drawn about the world out there, the imperative at any time is to guard this mind from intentions associated with greed, hatred and delusion. When eating food, whether this is in the case of a vegan or non-vegan, greed is unavoidable but can be known for what it is. The likeliness however, that a vegan who is involved in the kind of thoughts that he has, including giving importance to the outward behaviour , that right consideration is given to the quality of mind and any intentions, is quiet low. So while the meat eater who is rid of the kind of clutter is open to the possibility of right understanding about his own attachments to food, the vegan unwittingly not only can develop more attachment to his menu, but also to the ‘idea’ of being a vegan. And then there is the idea held by some that goes something like this: “If we do not eat meat, we are in effect discouraging killing in the world”. This again is wrong thinking, in fact a proliferation of view. Anyone who has had any glimpse into his own unwholesome tendencies would know that there is a long way to go and much work to be done in this regard. He’d know that it is not enough to have the precepts as guideline and that one is forever forgetful. The attention is then drawn towards developing one’s own mind and away from such things as trying to arrange the world. It is sheer ignorance hence which is behind such thoughts as being a vegan thinking that this would have a positive effect upon others in that they would then stop killing. And besides, if there is any understanding on the part of the individual concerned, he’d see that any outward ceasing of killing, such as that which could happen if there was a law prohibiting, this does not address the *real* cause, which is the tendency in each individual, to kill due to the accumulated greed, hatred and delusion. So again in this case, the vegan does not address what is really important and ends up increasing attachment and ignorance. And although he may not go out ‘preaching’ to the world his ideas, one can see that arrogance must also be involved in all this. --------------- Quote: <<And that was just for monastics; lay people could eat whatever sort of elephant or horse meat they could find.>> This is not correct. Killing is killing and is wrong no matter what the circumstance. Yes, as monks, doing any kind of wrong has greater karmic result given his position. When it comes to eating, the kind of food is same, although not all meats are suitable in terms of health and would therefore be advised against. --------------- Quote: << So to be clear: the act of eating meat was deemed karmically neutral. The act of killing or having something killed for you to eat was karmically negative.>> No such thing as karmically neutral here, eating is always with greed for most of us, and although this does not constitute ‘evil deed’ hence giving rise to bad results, it nevertheless accumulates. ---------------- Quote: << Over time though many savvy consumers have raised a finger and said, "But what about supply and demand?" At first it may appear that the Buddha did not buy into that particular logic when making this decision.>> Of course he did not buy into any such ideas. He understood clearly while the others were lost in thought proliferation and who needed to be engaged in some form of self-indulgence. ----------------- Quote: << Since alms were basically leftovers from lay households it was argued that the meat was not directly linked to the monks or nuns' karma. It's as if I showed up at your home yesterday and you gave me whatever leftover turkey you were putting in the fridge. By this argument I would take whatever you gave me and not be karmically responsible.>> Firstly, if anything, the lay followers would be the ones eating any leftovers that were intended to be offered. It is with generosity, kindness and respect that ideally these offerings are made. In return the monks teach the Dharma, which is the greatest of gifts ever can be given. Let us not pollute this particular relationship with the crap that we entertain due to our own lack of understanding! ------------ Quote: << Some people may find that argument convincing. I myself think that it's a bit of a copout; if I eat the last of your turkey who's to say you won't wake up the next day, wish it were still there, and go out and get another one?>> Your argument is based on wrong premises. But what is worse is that you entertain the ideas that you do, which leads to much more harm in the long run than the killing that you seem to talk against but only ever indirectly address. Your problem is the attachment to the idea of being a vegan. In this regard I wonder if you’ve ever had thoughts about the greater number of beings (insects) killed in the process of growing one vegetable? ------------- Quote: << As with everything on this spiritual path we need to determine what makes sense for us.>> This is perhaps your error. You think as you do from under the mud that you are sunk in. [/QUOTE]
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