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Interfaith Dialogues
Are The Important Scriptures Of World Religions, Simply Opinions?
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<blockquote data-quote="sunmukh" data-source="post: 136610" data-attributes="member: 11050"><p><strong>Re: Are the important scriptures of world religions simply opinions?</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>Ek OnKaar Sat Naam</p><p> </p><p>Thank you for your response Seeker9 ji.</p><p> </p><p>I completely agree it is possible to rank scriptures. Using such criteria as you list it is possible to select the ones that meet or exceed the set criteria. </p><p> </p><p>SGGS ji does stand out for me, but to be fair, I only come to this conclusion from my upbringing, and without reading anything other than part of the new testament, the book of genesis, and very, very few snippets from buddhist and hindu works. </p><p>Had I been born into another faith, I expect I would have seen that faith as standing out above the crowd as well.</p><p> </p><p>The point you made about when scriptures were written will usually make a difference with regards to authenticity - how much any scriptures can be expected to be in accord with the original "prophets'" scripts/words. </p><p> </p><p>However, setting any points about authenticity, reliablity, and even merit aside, the point I was attempting to make was that absolutely all scriptures are based on the thoughts arising in somebody or another's mind, rather than through actual factual knowledge of God.</p><p> </p><p>This makes them all opinion, and based on such a presumption that they have no subtantive evidence to support them, with regards to God, (rather than human behavioural traits), this makes everyone elses opinion on the same subject matter (God) potentially just as valuable, as what is already recorded in any scriptures. </p><p> </p><p>This is what I was trying to suggest when I was informed this was very offensive to SGGS ji. </p><p> </p><p>Of course it challenges current opinions about Sikhi. However any seekers of truth, in my opinion, should not be afraid of challenging any norms. If Guru Nanak Dev ji had not done so then Sikhi would not be what it is today. </p><p> </p><p>The stanza I used at that time to support this claim that all the claims with regards to God in SGGS ji are based on opinion alone and that Guru Nanak Dev ji was of the same opinion, that they were all opinion, was pauri 3 in Japji Sahib:</p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></p><p> </p><p>I did not get a chance to elaborate further, but I will try to here:</p><p> </p><p>To me this is quite clear cut. Guru Nanak is reconising that all the opinions about God are mere stories and there are countless variations of them. Regardless of their nature, people swallow the stories untill they tire and move on to a revised or new version. Regardless of the stories, it is the One who positions us, by virtue of His Hukam, to listen to such tales. When one recognises them to be nothing but tales, then one breaks the bonds and chains to the set established norms of any religion, as one shifts from attachment from religion, to attachment to God (ie a higher plane). It leaves one enlightened, liberated or emancipated (from religion) ie neither Hindu/Mussalman (or an attached Sikh), but still worshipping God. </p><p> </p><p>There is of course much more bani to support Guru Nanak's opinion that nobody really knows the nature of God:</p><p> </p><p>eg:</p><p> </p><p>P5:</p><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></p><p>If Guru Nanak Dev ji, the founder of Sikhi, does not know everything, and is not afraid to say so, then what is the problem of some current day sikhs when someone else says SGGS ji expresses opinion alone? Why should this be offensive? I would have thought, they would be pleased to note that Guru ji is not so arrogant to claim all knwledge of God, like some adherents to faiths with prophets do, when they claim their prophets were all knowing. However it seems to me a number of "sikhs" have now become very intolerant gatekeepers to the current norms of "their" religion, yet don't even consider just how perceptive and tolerant Guru Nanak was. He and subsequent gurus made sikhi universal, as evidenced in SGGS ji, but current sikhs have shut up shop and pulled down the shutters, with arrows pointed outwards through holes in the shutters, at anybody who comments on SGGS ji. Their first and foremost thought is to protect the Guru. I guess they are attached not to the universal truth of the bani, and hence to God, but to the form of Guru ji. I further guess that whilst in that state, they cannot progress spiritually and cannot move from being a sikh of the guru, in deference to the guru, to becoming a sikh of the lord, with no religion - neither Hindu, Mussalman or Sikh. The shabd will not strike their hearts, as their hearts are not attached to bani and the message it carries, but is attached to one particular manifestation of the Lord. The all pervasivenes of the Lord can never be recognised in this fashion, if one worships and protects one form of the Lord but not the next. "sarbat da bhalla" cannot be realised and never will be fully realised, as sarbat is ranked. </p><p> </p><p>Let us look at more bani:</p><p> </p><p>P875:</p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><p style="text-align: left"></p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'">Guru ji, via Naam Dev, is pointing to worship of the Lord and not to worship of the trappings of a religion. </p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'">P327:</p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></p><p>Guru ji, via Kabeer ji, speaks of hindus' offerings of gold to the Lord (whch persists to this day)but states this cannot buy the Lord; some sikhs make big offerings as well; Guru ji speaks of the Hindu scriptures - Brahma could not fully describe the Lord (as no-one can); Guru ji advises to worship the Lord alone and not the trappings of religion.</p><p> </p><p>P83:</p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></p><p>Guru Ram Das ji advises to worship the One Lord alone. This will remove all doubts and fear, including the fears in the hearts of gatekeepers of religions. Religions are God's paths, so there is no fear of losing what he creates, destroys and recreates. </p><p> </p><p>P66:</p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><p style="text-align: left"></p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'">a) Guru Amar Das ji goes into the overriding nature of the Grace of the Lord (not of the practices of a religion). He will do as He pleases, so any readers should not get emotionally attached to any religion</p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'">b) The Truth is already within - no need to look outside</p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'">c) Follow the Guru - this reference to Guru is not any arrogant reference to Guru Amar Das ji, not Guru Angad Dev ji and not Guru Nanak Dev ji. This is Sat Guru, the ever resident Guru within, the best friend of the soul, the sajan that one works to meet, one can then interact with and one asks to introduce one to the Lord. It is the seed of the Lord within, that bestows inner conscience, that shows flamingoes offspring that are left behind, on how to feed and grow, and become parents themselves - it is innate knowledge - and is hence, yet again an incitation to break free from the chains of religion, and shift to worship of the One Lord</p></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><p style="text-align: left">p10 and p495:</p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'">d) The Lord alone is the ambrosial fruit. The Gurmukh is the tree, and in this context is now SGGS ji. We know SGGS ji embodies the joyt of liberated Gurmukhs, Guru Sahiban. However Guru ji is not saying we should be like the birds that fly around the tree. Reading the shabd should not result in stopping at the tree and worshipping the tree, or flitting in and around it. Reading the shabd should be engendering love for the One Lord, and causing one to settle on the tree with real purpose, that being to peck at the fruit ; if God so wills, this could yield the fruit - the Lord Himself. Ignorance of the fruit yet with knowledge of the tree, will leave one like the birds that fly around the trees, but never enjoy the fruit. </p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"></p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'"><span style="font-family: 'Tahona'">Sat Sri Akal</p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></span><p style="text-align: left"></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="sunmukh, post: 136610, member: 11050"] [b]Re: Are the important scriptures of world religions simply opinions?[/b] Ek OnKaar Sat Naam Thank you for your response Seeker9 ji. I completely agree it is possible to rank scriptures. Using such criteria as you list it is possible to select the ones that meet or exceed the set criteria. SGGS ji does stand out for me, but to be fair, I only come to this conclusion from my upbringing, and without reading anything other than part of the new testament, the book of genesis, and very, very few snippets from buddhist and hindu works. Had I been born into another faith, I expect I would have seen that faith as standing out above the crowd as well. The point you made about when scriptures were written will usually make a difference with regards to authenticity - how much any scriptures can be expected to be in accord with the original "prophets'" scripts/words. However, setting any points about authenticity, reliablity, and even merit aside, the point I was attempting to make was that absolutely all scriptures are based on the thoughts arising in somebody or another's mind, rather than through actual factual knowledge of God. This makes them all opinion, and based on such a presumption that they have no subtantive evidence to support them, with regards to God, (rather than human behavioural traits), this makes everyone elses opinion on the same subject matter (God) potentially just as valuable, as what is already recorded in any scriptures. This is what I was trying to suggest when I was informed this was very offensive to SGGS ji. Of course it challenges current opinions about Sikhi. However any seekers of truth, in my opinion, should not be afraid of challenging any norms. If Guru Nanak Dev ji had not done so then Sikhi would not be what it is today. The stanza I used at that time to support this claim that all the claims with regards to God in SGGS ji are based on opinion alone and that Guru Nanak Dev ji was of the same opinion, that they were all opinion, was pauri 3 in Japji Sahib: [FONT=Tahona][LEFT][/LEFT][/FONT][LEFT][/LEFT] I did not get a chance to elaborate further, but I will try to here: To me this is quite clear cut. Guru Nanak is reconising that all the opinions about God are mere stories and there are countless variations of them. Regardless of their nature, people swallow the stories untill they tire and move on to a revised or new version. Regardless of the stories, it is the One who positions us, by virtue of His Hukam, to listen to such tales. When one recognises them to be nothing but tales, then one breaks the bonds and chains to the set established norms of any religion, as one shifts from attachment from religion, to attachment to God (ie a higher plane). It leaves one enlightened, liberated or emancipated (from religion) ie neither Hindu/Mussalman (or an attached Sikh), but still worshipping God. There is of course much more bani to support Guru Nanak's opinion that nobody really knows the nature of God: eg: P5: [LEFT][/LEFT] If Guru Nanak Dev ji, the founder of Sikhi, does not know everything, and is not afraid to say so, then what is the problem of some current day sikhs when someone else says SGGS ji expresses opinion alone? Why should this be offensive? I would have thought, they would be pleased to note that Guru ji is not so arrogant to claim all knwledge of God, like some adherents to faiths with prophets do, when they claim their prophets were all knowing. However it seems to me a number of "sikhs" have now become very intolerant gatekeepers to the current norms of "their" religion, yet don't even consider just how perceptive and tolerant Guru Nanak was. He and subsequent gurus made sikhi universal, as evidenced in SGGS ji, but current sikhs have shut up shop and pulled down the shutters, with arrows pointed outwards through holes in the shutters, at anybody who comments on SGGS ji. Their first and foremost thought is to protect the Guru. I guess they are attached not to the universal truth of the bani, and hence to God, but to the form of Guru ji. I further guess that whilst in that state, they cannot progress spiritually and cannot move from being a sikh of the guru, in deference to the guru, to becoming a sikh of the lord, with no religion - neither Hindu, Mussalman or Sikh. The shabd will not strike their hearts, as their hearts are not attached to bani and the message it carries, but is attached to one particular manifestation of the Lord. The all pervasivenes of the Lord can never be recognised in this fashion, if one worships and protects one form of the Lord but not the next. "sarbat da bhalla" cannot be realised and never will be fully realised, as sarbat is ranked. Let us look at more bani: P875: [FONT=Tahona][LEFT] Guru ji, via Naam Dev, is pointing to worship of the Lord and not to worship of the trappings of a religion. P327: [/LEFT] [FONT=Tahona][LEFT][/LEFT][/FONT][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][/LEFT] Guru ji, via Kabeer ji, speaks of hindus' offerings of gold to the Lord (whch persists to this day)but states this cannot buy the Lord; some sikhs make big offerings as well; Guru ji speaks of the Hindu scriptures - Brahma could not fully describe the Lord (as no-one can); Guru ji advises to worship the Lord alone and not the trappings of religion. P83: [FONT=Tahona][LEFT][/LEFT][/FONT][LEFT][/LEFT] Guru Ram Das ji advises to worship the One Lord alone. This will remove all doubts and fear, including the fears in the hearts of gatekeepers of religions. Religions are God's paths, so there is no fear of losing what he creates, destroys and recreates. P66: [FONT=Tahona][LEFT] a) Guru Amar Das ji goes into the overriding nature of the Grace of the Lord (not of the practices of a religion). He will do as He pleases, so any readers should not get emotionally attached to any religion b) The Truth is already within - no need to look outside c) Follow the Guru - this reference to Guru is not any arrogant reference to Guru Amar Das ji, not Guru Angad Dev ji and not Guru Nanak Dev ji. This is Sat Guru, the ever resident Guru within, the best friend of the soul, the sajan that one works to meet, one can then interact with and one asks to introduce one to the Lord. It is the seed of the Lord within, that bestows inner conscience, that shows flamingoes offspring that are left behind, on how to feed and grow, and become parents themselves - it is innate knowledge - and is hence, yet again an incitation to break free from the chains of religion, and shift to worship of the One Lord [/LEFT] [FONT=Tahona][LEFT]p10 and p495: d) The Lord alone is the ambrosial fruit. The Gurmukh is the tree, and in this context is now SGGS ji. We know SGGS ji embodies the joyt of liberated Gurmukhs, Guru Sahiban. However Guru ji is not saying we should be like the birds that fly around the tree. Reading the shabd should not result in stopping at the tree and worshipping the tree, or flitting in and around it. Reading the shabd should be engendering love for the One Lord, and causing one to settle on the tree with real purpose, that being to peck at the fruit ; if God so wills, this could yield the fruit - the Lord Himself. Ignorance of the fruit yet with knowledge of the tree, will leave one like the birds that fly around the trees, but never enjoy the fruit. Sat Sri Akal[/LEFT][/FONT][LEFT][/left][/FONT][LEFT][/LEFT] [/QUOTE]
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