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ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
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Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
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Ashtpadi (129-130)
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Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
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Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
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Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
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Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Are Lascivious Thoughts Immoral If Not Acted On?
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 152396" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>I had little objection with regard to the Muslim perspective in the essay than I did with the Buddhist. ;-) So allow me to try and give a more correct representation of the latter.</p><p></p><p>As human beings it is not to be expected that there will not be strong sensual desire. After all, this is a sensual plain of existence and being born a human is result of good karma, which means that different from hell, we are here to reap the fruits in the form of pleasant sense experiences.</p><p></p><p>Sexual desire is desire, only unlike for example; desire for certain foods and music, this one is especially strong. In general, for a man, there is no sight more arousing than that of a woman (same with a woman for a man), likewise no flavour, sound, smell nor touch. </p><p></p><p>So it is not surprising that we will have lustful thoughts! Only that unlike food, music and so on, in an attempt at satisfying our urges, with sex, this necessarily involves interaction with another being. And here comes in the question of moral conduct. For a married man, having a relationship with someone other than one's own wife can therefore only be wrong. For an unmarried man, things such as whether the other person is engaged to someone else, or whether she is still under the protection of parents or guardians or that she is a minor should be taken into account because of the consequence that these have, (though I think visiting a prostitute is OK). </p><p></p><p>Let us not forget however, that desire is desire and it is in the nature of this to accumulate. Therefore although it is never wrong to have sexual relationship with one's own partner, we should not overlook the fact that if we become obsessed with it, this can one day lead to misconduct in the form of sexual relationships outside of marriage. And this is where we need to consider the nature of desire itself. </p><p></p><p>Since sex comes down to the experiences through the five senses, we can see then that if we are unrestrained in desire for the objects of the senses in general, this has influence on our attitudes towards sex as well. Indeed, when desire is strong, it can lead to immoral conducts such as lying, stealing and killing, and also sexual misconduct.</p><p></p><p>What then should be our attitude towards desire in general and sexual desire in particular? For the latter, there is for example, meditation on the "loathsomeness of the body" where the body is broken down into constituent parts, which makes it that when taken out of context of the overall "looks", it is not pleasant looking anymore, like hair in the soup bowl. Also one could be encouraged to have wholesome thoughts to replace the lustful ones. Both these although wholesome and encouraging of calm, however involve only 'suppression' which do not lead to desire in general being reduced. The only way that desire is ever dealt with any lasting effect is the development of understanding with regard to its true nature. </p><p></p><p>When desire arises we can understand that it has arisen by conditions beyond control and be reminded then, of the as yet strong underlying tendency which won't go away any time soon. However being that this must involve a level of understanding which is characterized by a degree of detachment, instead of being discouraged, one is motivated with patience and courage to continue looking in that direction. But before there is any direct awareness and understanding of the reality of the moment, there must first be a correct intellectual understanding as to the nature of the different realities including desire, and also that of awareness and understanding itself. </p><p></p><p>That we have a sense of something having occurred is evidence that it has fallen away already. There is therefore no point in trying to deal with it, let alone feel guilty. Wrestling with one's desire can only be done with ignorance and desire and this means that it is actually increasing. In other words, it is part of the development of understanding to realize that you can't desire to rid of desire. </p><p></p><p>Seeing this and all the other traps that come with the perception of a "me" who is this way or that way and needs to do something in order to become / change, one is lead to conclude that the development of wisdom must be natural. In other words we are to understand who we are and this won't happen if we believe that we should be doing something in particular or be at another place or time in order that such an understanding can happen or be facilitated. Therefore there is no place for such things as 'meditation' or the practice of 'mind control' in the Buddha's teachings.</p><p></p><p>If one must use the word 'control' this can refer to the fact of wholesome states arising in place of unwholesome ones or that of wisdom arising in place of ignorance and craving. These however refer to impersonal elements following a particular developmental path and not a result of some "formal practice". The conditions for the development of wisdom or 'right understanding' as stated by the Buddha are:</p><p></p><p>1. Association with superior, knowledgeable people </p><p>2. Hearing the Dharma </p><p>3. Careful attention </p><p>4. Practice in accordance with the Dharma</p><p></p><p>None of these happen because we choose it. Only wisdom can recognize wisdom, and if this does not happen, one *will* be wrong about it all. One manifestation of this is the idea of sitting down to meditate in order to watch thoughts. What happens in such a case is simply the replacement of one pattern of thinking with another. While wisdom if arisen would know 'thinking' as just thinking which is impermanent and non-self, the meditator in experiencing states of mind *different* from normal is actually being fooled by what is called "illusion of result". This then motivates him to continue with the particular practice all the while increasing the perception of "me", me who is, who needs to do, who does, who will be, and who achieves. </p><p> </p><p>Getting back to the matter of lustful thoughts, we can now see that the only right approach is to understand it as just another conditioned arising. Thinking arises and falls away instantly just like any other reality and the attachment accompanying it is equally fleeting and can also be understood. This kind of understanding must grow firm such that we then are not attracted by suggestions to particular deliberate practices. And when it comes to the idea of watching thoughts even now, is it not evident that this happens because we fail to see that the thinking has arisen and already fallen away? And is it not then that what follows is a case of being caught up in thinking rather than understanding it?</p><p></p><p>I think that this is enough for now. Will wait for a response before adding more.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 152396, member: 586"] I had little objection with regard to the Muslim perspective in the essay than I did with the Buddhist. ;-) So allow me to try and give a more correct representation of the latter. As human beings it is not to be expected that there will not be strong sensual desire. After all, this is a sensual plain of existence and being born a human is result of good karma, which means that different from hell, we are here to reap the fruits in the form of pleasant sense experiences. Sexual desire is desire, only unlike for example; desire for certain foods and music, this one is especially strong. In general, for a man, there is no sight more arousing than that of a woman (same with a woman for a man), likewise no flavour, sound, smell nor touch. So it is not surprising that we will have lustful thoughts! Only that unlike food, music and so on, in an attempt at satisfying our urges, with sex, this necessarily involves interaction with another being. And here comes in the question of moral conduct. For a married man, having a relationship with someone other than one's own wife can therefore only be wrong. For an unmarried man, things such as whether the other person is engaged to someone else, or whether she is still under the protection of parents or guardians or that she is a minor should be taken into account because of the consequence that these have, (though I think visiting a prostitute is OK). Let us not forget however, that desire is desire and it is in the nature of this to accumulate. Therefore although it is never wrong to have sexual relationship with one's own partner, we should not overlook the fact that if we become obsessed with it, this can one day lead to misconduct in the form of sexual relationships outside of marriage. And this is where we need to consider the nature of desire itself. Since sex comes down to the experiences through the five senses, we can see then that if we are unrestrained in desire for the objects of the senses in general, this has influence on our attitudes towards sex as well. Indeed, when desire is strong, it can lead to immoral conducts such as lying, stealing and killing, and also sexual misconduct. What then should be our attitude towards desire in general and sexual desire in particular? For the latter, there is for example, meditation on the "loathsomeness of the body" where the body is broken down into constituent parts, which makes it that when taken out of context of the overall "looks", it is not pleasant looking anymore, like hair in the soup bowl. Also one could be encouraged to have wholesome thoughts to replace the lustful ones. Both these although wholesome and encouraging of calm, however involve only 'suppression' which do not lead to desire in general being reduced. The only way that desire is ever dealt with any lasting effect is the development of understanding with regard to its true nature. When desire arises we can understand that it has arisen by conditions beyond control and be reminded then, of the as yet strong underlying tendency which won't go away any time soon. However being that this must involve a level of understanding which is characterized by a degree of detachment, instead of being discouraged, one is motivated with patience and courage to continue looking in that direction. But before there is any direct awareness and understanding of the reality of the moment, there must first be a correct intellectual understanding as to the nature of the different realities including desire, and also that of awareness and understanding itself. That we have a sense of something having occurred is evidence that it has fallen away already. There is therefore no point in trying to deal with it, let alone feel guilty. Wrestling with one's desire can only be done with ignorance and desire and this means that it is actually increasing. In other words, it is part of the development of understanding to realize that you can't desire to rid of desire. Seeing this and all the other traps that come with the perception of a "me" who is this way or that way and needs to do something in order to become / change, one is lead to conclude that the development of wisdom must be natural. In other words we are to understand who we are and this won't happen if we believe that we should be doing something in particular or be at another place or time in order that such an understanding can happen or be facilitated. Therefore there is no place for such things as 'meditation' or the practice of 'mind control' in the Buddha's teachings. If one must use the word 'control' this can refer to the fact of wholesome states arising in place of unwholesome ones or that of wisdom arising in place of ignorance and craving. These however refer to impersonal elements following a particular developmental path and not a result of some "formal practice". The conditions for the development of wisdom or 'right understanding' as stated by the Buddha are: 1. Association with superior, knowledgeable people 2. Hearing the Dharma 3. Careful attention 4. Practice in accordance with the Dharma None of these happen because we choose it. Only wisdom can recognize wisdom, and if this does not happen, one *will* be wrong about it all. One manifestation of this is the idea of sitting down to meditate in order to watch thoughts. What happens in such a case is simply the replacement of one pattern of thinking with another. While wisdom if arisen would know 'thinking' as just thinking which is impermanent and non-self, the meditator in experiencing states of mind *different* from normal is actually being fooled by what is called "illusion of result". This then motivates him to continue with the particular practice all the while increasing the perception of "me", me who is, who needs to do, who does, who will be, and who achieves. Getting back to the matter of lustful thoughts, we can now see that the only right approach is to understand it as just another conditioned arising. Thinking arises and falls away instantly just like any other reality and the attachment accompanying it is equally fleeting and can also be understood. This kind of understanding must grow firm such that we then are not attracted by suggestions to particular deliberate practices. And when it comes to the idea of watching thoughts even now, is it not evident that this happens because we fail to see that the thinking has arisen and already fallen away? And is it not then that what follows is a case of being caught up in thinking rather than understanding it? I think that this is enough for now. Will wait for a response before adding more. [/QUOTE]
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