☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Interfaith Dialogues
After Blast In Egypt, Many Deride Their Church As Too Timid
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 139898" data-attributes="member: 35"><p>CAIRO — The worshipers erupted, hundreds of them, loudly chanting “No! No! No!” and drowning out the priest, making it impossible for him to continue offering thanks to President Hosni Mubarak.</p><p></p><p>It was two days after a suicide bomber killed at least 21 people as a New Year’s Eve Mass was ending in Alexandria, and the Coptic Christian church leadership had assumed its standard posture as ally of the president, loyal institution of the state. “We direct our thanks to the president,” the priest said during a Mass.</p><p></p><p>But this time the parishioners would have none of it: “No! No! No!” “We want our rights!” and “Remove the governor!” they shouted during the ceremony.</p><p></p><p>The bomb attack exposed a troubling sectarian divide between Egypt’s Christian minority and its Muslim majority. But it also revealed disagreements within the Christian population, and within the church, too. An increasingly conservative and restive segment of the population expressed frustration with the church leadership’s nonconfrontational approach to the state and its reluctance to aggressively challenge practices seen as discriminatory, churchgoers, politicians and political scientists said.</p><p></p><p>Yousry Matta, who witnessed the attack outside the Saints Church in Alexandria, was critical of the leader of the Coptic Orthodox Church, saying: “Pope Shenouda always plays politics with our situation. He must act to get help for us from the outside, and instead he just says that in Egypt we are all brothers. When something bad happens he just stays quiet.”</p><p></p><p>But concern was also expressed by a smaller, quieter segment of the community that the church had taken too prominent a role in representing Egypt’s Christians in the first place, reinforcing the sectarian divide and the notion that Coptic Christians are Christians first, and Egyptians second.</p><p></p><p>“When the pope refers to the ‘Christian people,’ I reject that,” said Mona Makram-Ebeid, a former member of Parliament from a prominent Christian family. The word “people” implies a nation, separate and apart, she said.</p><p></p><p>Samir Morqos, a researcher and intellectual who asked to be described as an Egyptian rather than a Coptic Christian, said: “If we start talking about the role of the church, then we are accepting the idea of the Copts as a religious community, but it’s about time that we start to look at this issue in a different way. We have to see them as part of society and address their issues and provide solutions through the civil state.”</p><p></p><p>Cairo was quiet on Friday, the Coptic Christian Christmas. But after days of protests and riots, many people said that the calm was merely a lull and that the troubles, if not addressed, would soon re-emerge.</p><p></p><p>Since the bomb attack, church leaders have responded primarily by addressing the criticism of the larger, louder, angrier group of constituents, thousands of whom took to the streets in protests, chanting slogans against the government and, in some cases, calling for the church to be more responsive, too.</p><p></p><p>Pope Shenouda III appeared on state television on Tuesday and in unusually blunt terms urged the government to address discrimination, to confront “the problems of the Copts and try to resolve them.”</p><p></p><p>Although the pope remains a largely respected figure, his words did little to cool the anger. Protesters defied pleas to stay off the streets and called on their leadership to drop its diplomatic approach, a prospect that the church leaders made clear would not happen because it would — in the end — only intensify the problem, church officials said.</p><p></p><p>“There is something that upsets me from the church,” said Atef Marzouq, a clerk in a shoe store in Shoubra, a neighborhood in Cairo, as he watched angry young protesters being corralled in the street by riot police officers on Wednesday. “I don’t like the statements they make. They keep saying ‘We are brothers, we are brothers.’ So I get beat up and then you tell me he is my brother? I want honesty. I want honest and resolute statements.”</p><p></p><p>But political experts and current and former government officials said the church, like any other institution in Egypt, struggled merely to survive in an authoritarian state, where President Mubarak and his political allies have a monopoly on power. The state has at times allowed individual constituencies, like the banned Muslim Brotherhood, to have a voice, but with the goal of co-opting them rather than empowering them, said political experts and intellectuals, including members of the governing party.</p><p></p><p>At the same time, Pope Shenouda is unlikely to stand up to the state given his history, instead working to win gains by appearing loyal, experts in the church said. In 1981, Pope Shenouda defied the president at the time, Anwar el-Sadat, and as a result was removed from his position and exiled to a monastery for nearly three and a half years.</p><p></p><p>“There is no independence in the church anymore,” said Ms. Makram-Ebeid, the former member of Parliament. “That is what they think is necessary for survival, to be co-opted. It is a defense mechanism.”</p><p></p><p>But church representatives suggested that the issue had less to do with independence than with pragmatic considerations.</p><p></p><p>“I am emphasizing the young men should not follow those who incite,” the Rev. Antonious Tawfik said during Christmas Mass from the pulpit of the same church in Shoubra where days earlier demonstrators stood chanting for the church to listen. “Nobody should go out in a demonstration or a march, and he who does will subject himself to the reach of the law.”</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/world/middleeast/08egypt.html?ref=world" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/world/middleeast/08egypt.html?ref=world</a>C</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 139898, member: 35"] CAIRO — The worshipers erupted, hundreds of them, loudly chanting “No! No! No!” and drowning out the priest, making it impossible for him to continue offering thanks to President Hosni Mubarak. It was two days after a suicide bomber killed at least 21 people as a New Year’s Eve Mass was ending in Alexandria, and the Coptic Christian church leadership had assumed its standard posture as ally of the president, loyal institution of the state. “We direct our thanks to the president,” the priest said during a Mass. But this time the parishioners would have none of it: “No! No! No!” “We want our rights!” and “Remove the governor!” they shouted during the ceremony. The bomb attack exposed a troubling sectarian divide between Egypt’s Christian minority and its Muslim majority. But it also revealed disagreements within the Christian population, and within the church, too. An increasingly conservative and restive segment of the population expressed frustration with the church leadership’s nonconfrontational approach to the state and its reluctance to aggressively challenge practices seen as discriminatory, churchgoers, politicians and political scientists said. Yousry Matta, who witnessed the attack outside the Saints Church in Alexandria, was critical of the leader of the Coptic Orthodox Church, saying: “Pope Shenouda always plays politics with our situation. He must act to get help for us from the outside, and instead he just says that in Egypt we are all brothers. When something bad happens he just stays quiet.” But concern was also expressed by a smaller, quieter segment of the community that the church had taken too prominent a role in representing Egypt’s Christians in the first place, reinforcing the sectarian divide and the notion that Coptic Christians are Christians first, and Egyptians second. “When the pope refers to the ‘Christian people,’ I reject that,” said Mona Makram-Ebeid, a former member of Parliament from a prominent Christian family. The word “people” implies a nation, separate and apart, she said. Samir Morqos, a researcher and intellectual who asked to be described as an Egyptian rather than a Coptic Christian, said: “If we start talking about the role of the church, then we are accepting the idea of the Copts as a religious community, but it’s about time that we start to look at this issue in a different way. We have to see them as part of society and address their issues and provide solutions through the civil state.” Cairo was quiet on Friday, the Coptic Christian Christmas. But after days of protests and riots, many people said that the calm was merely a lull and that the troubles, if not addressed, would soon re-emerge. Since the bomb attack, church leaders have responded primarily by addressing the criticism of the larger, louder, angrier group of constituents, thousands of whom took to the streets in protests, chanting slogans against the government and, in some cases, calling for the church to be more responsive, too. Pope Shenouda III appeared on state television on Tuesday and in unusually blunt terms urged the government to address discrimination, to confront “the problems of the Copts and try to resolve them.” Although the pope remains a largely respected figure, his words did little to cool the anger. Protesters defied pleas to stay off the streets and called on their leadership to drop its diplomatic approach, a prospect that the church leaders made clear would not happen because it would — in the end — only intensify the problem, church officials said. “There is something that upsets me from the church,” said Atef Marzouq, a clerk in a shoe store in Shoubra, a neighborhood in Cairo, as he watched angry young protesters being corralled in the street by riot police officers on Wednesday. “I don’t like the statements they make. They keep saying ‘We are brothers, we are brothers.’ So I get beat up and then you tell me he is my brother? I want honesty. I want honest and resolute statements.” But political experts and current and former government officials said the church, like any other institution in Egypt, struggled merely to survive in an authoritarian state, where President Mubarak and his political allies have a monopoly on power. The state has at times allowed individual constituencies, like the banned Muslim Brotherhood, to have a voice, but with the goal of co-opting them rather than empowering them, said political experts and intellectuals, including members of the governing party. At the same time, Pope Shenouda is unlikely to stand up to the state given his history, instead working to win gains by appearing loyal, experts in the church said. In 1981, Pope Shenouda defied the president at the time, Anwar el-Sadat, and as a result was removed from his position and exiled to a monastery for nearly three and a half years. “There is no independence in the church anymore,” said Ms. Makram-Ebeid, the former member of Parliament. “That is what they think is necessary for survival, to be co-opted. It is a defense mechanism.” But church representatives suggested that the issue had less to do with independence than with pragmatic considerations. “I am emphasizing the young men should not follow those who incite,” the Rev. Antonious Tawfik said during Christmas Mass from the pulpit of the same church in Shoubra where days earlier demonstrators stood chanting for the church to listen. “Nobody should go out in a demonstration or a march, and he who does will subject himself to the reach of the law.” [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/world/middleeast/08egypt.html?ref=world[/url]C [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Interfaith Dialogues
After Blast In Egypt, Many Deride Their Church As Too Timid
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top