☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Hard Talk
Abortion Legalized In Ireland - My Views
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Inderjeet Kaur" data-source="post: 216516" data-attributes="member: 16531"><p><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/ireland-votes-by-landslide-to-legalise-abortion" target="_blank">Ireland votes by landslide to legalise abortion</a></strong></span></p><p></p><p>This is not an easy topic, but it is an important one. I first need to make it clear that I am not talking about medically necessary abortions where the mother’s life is in danger. I consider that to be a matter of self-defense, something outside of normal morality, a matter solely between the woman and her doctor. Savita Halappanavar, the Indian woman who died because she was denied a therapeutic abortion in Ireland in 2012 until it was too late, should not have died. [ 1] The doctors were aware that there was no chance that she could successfully complete her pregnancy and give birth to a living baby. “ Medical staff concluded that a miscarriage was inevitable but did not intervene – despite requests from Halappanavar and her husband for an abortion – as a foetal heartbeat could be detected. “[2] I see nothing moral or life-affirming in her death.</p><p></p><p>I will not use the terms pro-choice and pro-life because both are prejudicial and misleading. The phrase “a woman’s right to choose” shouldn’t be only about abortion. It applies to all aspects of life. For example, when I was a child, I was told I couldn’t choose to be an astronaut because I had a vagina and the qualifications to be an astronaut stipulated that only those humans with a {censored} were qualified. Likewise, using the term pro-life to mean supporting life only in the womb, is hypocritical, at best. I don’t see how a person who would deny necessary medical care to a sick person could rightfully be called pro-life.</p><p></p><p>**************************************************************************************</p><p></p><p>My statement: After much deep thought I have come to the conclusion that abortion performed when not medically necessary kills an innocent human being and, as such, is morally wrong. However, this is morally a gray area since whether the being in the womb is a human being or not is open to question and is a matter of opinion. I do not believe I have the right to impose my moral beliefs on others. Therefore, while I cannot support abortion-on-demand being legal, neither can I support it being illegal. I must sit this one out and let you fight it out amongst yourselves. I choose my battles carefully and, since this one cannot be won, I bow out of it. I hope this doesn’t make me a moral coward, but if it does, so be it.</p><p></p><p>I need also add that, while I have never had an abortion, many of my friends have. They did what was necessary to them at the time. Who am I to pass judgement on them?</p><p></p><p>***********************************************************************************</p><p></p><p>Until about 1972, I, like”all” progressive women at the time, was clamoring for “a woman’s right to control her own body.” That’s hard to argue with. The answer here hinges on whether the fetus is part of her body or a separate person living there for a while.</p><p></p><p>[Since I have used the word”fetus, a dictionary definition is necessary, so we are all giving the same meaning to the word.</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">“Fetus: an unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular, an unborn human more than eight weeks after conception. (Oxford Dictionaries)” [3]</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>Now those two events...</p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">First event. I knew a doctor, a politically extremely liberal man, who on this topic in answer to my question about where he stood, replied, “I am a doctor. I took an oath to preserve life, not to take it.”</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Second event. In an anti-Vietnam War protest, our side, the Good Guys, were shouting “baby killer” at some returning soldiers from that not-exactly-a-war. This caused some cognitive dissonance [4] in me because I couldn’t get my mind around the idea that abortion was not killing a baby and yet I was so much in favor of equal rights for women and <em>everybody </em>around me agreed that those included the right to abortion-on-demand.</li> </ol><p></p><p>One day, I was with a group of feminists and let fall the statement that”abortion is sad.” That was enough to get me completely ostracized from that movement that, before <em>Roe v. Wade [5]</em>, which made abortion-on-demand legal throughout the USA, considered abortion the Holy Grail of equal rights.</p><p></p><p>Those two events made me think about abortion in a way I hadn’t before. In the end, I came to the conclusion stated above. Yes, a fetus is a baby to me, but not too many other people. There is no way I can resolve this in my own mind, so I leave this very important battle to those less torn.</p><p></p><p>Since I am a Sikh, you might wonder what the Sikh religion teaches about abortion. The truth is that it doesn’t directly teach anything. In this, as in many other areas, we are given a philosophical religion and a way of life, then we are supposed to be thoroughly educated and grounded in it and then follow our own conscience. I have followed 14 leads and have come to this conclusion: Sikhi teaches love of the Creator and tremendous respect for life. Given that, I think most Sikhs would agree with what I have written, and please feel free to post disagreement with me.</p><p></p><p>Whether for or opposed to abortion, I think most people would agree that abortion, even when necessary, is sad. One outcome that is always true is that there is a dead baby or a dead nascent human. </p><p>****************</p><p></p><p>NOTES</p><p></p><p>[1 ]<a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2013%2Fapr%2F08%2Fabortion-refusal-death-ireland-hindu-woman&h=ATM46QvKxXJCHqr_oHQfx-1r-S4JpPlwqfJnzUmyf13n61If-Ovszb1H4-s3SbiqkCFq7ihryHHa_V2HIntYSB3e2s1KdUvsktF4yItyXv0hG2YdzIqOtw-VCX2GDS8VrQvtgQ" target="_blank">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/08/abortion-refusal-death-ireland-hindu-woman</a></p><p></p><p>[2]<a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2018%2Fmay%2F26%2Fsavita-halappanavar-father-thanks-irish-voters-for-historic-abortion-vote&h=ATMWt20A3vNoxhTy7J53vKR_c4XOZCLNSXhCZF3Et2elwrpVp2fdrod532TGSoLPimn55Zxgt3oM92H1OSx1p2yHuZ7gy4BDi9dyc2PuEd-4yXsYmuG1aht-4t3arVRUuF1GzA" target="_blank">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/savita-halappanavar-father-thanks-irish-voters-for-historic-abortion-vote</a></p><p></p><p>[3] <a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.oxforddictionaries.com%2Fdefinition%2Ffetus&h=ATPqCVglviXYPEYzWitaMvEhormUobT9Yr2q4Sn8aXu-NQfVh3O7WcI7BJDWRbyUWp98h2XjcOApWK-X0C0RjM1K2Xp1wjjTjQxvRIhIWZwKEaCMDfSNIQxPSWQjw8Stlw5KyQ" target="_blank">https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fetus</a></p><p></p><p>[4] the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.</p><p></p><p>[5] <a href="https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/roe-v-wade" target="_blank">Roe v. Wade - Jan 22, 1973 - HISTORY.com</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Inderjeet Kaur, post: 216516, member: 16531"] [SIZE=6][B][URL='https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/ireland-votes-by-landslide-to-legalise-abortion']Ireland votes by landslide to legalise abortion[/URL][/B][/SIZE] This is not an easy topic, but it is an important one. I first need to make it clear that I am not talking about medically necessary abortions where the mother’s life is in danger. I consider that to be a matter of self-defense, something outside of normal morality, a matter solely between the woman and her doctor. Savita Halappanavar, the Indian woman who died because she was denied a therapeutic abortion in Ireland in 2012 until it was too late, should not have died. [ 1] The doctors were aware that there was no chance that she could successfully complete her pregnancy and give birth to a living baby. “ Medical staff concluded that a miscarriage was inevitable but did not intervene – despite requests from Halappanavar and her husband for an abortion – as a foetal heartbeat could be detected. “[2] I see nothing moral or life-affirming in her death. I will not use the terms pro-choice and pro-life because both are prejudicial and misleading. The phrase “a woman’s right to choose” shouldn’t be only about abortion. It applies to all aspects of life. For example, when I was a child, I was told I couldn’t choose to be an astronaut because I had a vagina and the qualifications to be an astronaut stipulated that only those humans with a {censored} were qualified. Likewise, using the term pro-life to mean supporting life only in the womb, is hypocritical, at best. I don’t see how a person who would deny necessary medical care to a sick person could rightfully be called pro-life. ************************************************************************************** My statement: After much deep thought I have come to the conclusion that abortion performed when not medically necessary kills an innocent human being and, as such, is morally wrong. However, this is morally a gray area since whether the being in the womb is a human being or not is open to question and is a matter of opinion. I do not believe I have the right to impose my moral beliefs on others. Therefore, while I cannot support abortion-on-demand being legal, neither can I support it being illegal. I must sit this one out and let you fight it out amongst yourselves. I choose my battles carefully and, since this one cannot be won, I bow out of it. I hope this doesn’t make me a moral coward, but if it does, so be it. I need also add that, while I have never had an abortion, many of my friends have. They did what was necessary to them at the time. Who am I to pass judgement on them? *********************************************************************************** Until about 1972, I, like”all” progressive women at the time, was clamoring for “a woman’s right to control her own body.” That’s hard to argue with. The answer here hinges on whether the fetus is part of her body or a separate person living there for a while. [Since I have used the word”fetus, a dictionary definition is necessary, so we are all giving the same meaning to the word. [INDENT]“Fetus: an unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular, an unborn human more than eight weeks after conception. (Oxford Dictionaries)” [3] [/INDENT] Now those two events... [LIST=1] [*]First event. I knew a doctor, a politically extremely liberal man, who on this topic in answer to my question about where he stood, replied, “I am a doctor. I took an oath to preserve life, not to take it.” [*]Second event. In an anti-Vietnam War protest, our side, the Good Guys, were shouting “baby killer” at some returning soldiers from that not-exactly-a-war. This caused some cognitive dissonance [4] in me because I couldn’t get my mind around the idea that abortion was not killing a baby and yet I was so much in favor of equal rights for women and [I]everybody [/I]around me agreed that those included the right to abortion-on-demand. [/LIST] One day, I was with a group of feminists and let fall the statement that”abortion is sad.” That was enough to get me completely ostracized from that movement that, before [I]Roe v. Wade [5][/I], which made abortion-on-demand legal throughout the USA, considered abortion the Holy Grail of equal rights. Those two events made me think about abortion in a way I hadn’t before. In the end, I came to the conclusion stated above. Yes, a fetus is a baby to me, but not too many other people. There is no way I can resolve this in my own mind, so I leave this very important battle to those less torn. Since I am a Sikh, you might wonder what the Sikh religion teaches about abortion. The truth is that it doesn’t directly teach anything. In this, as in many other areas, we are given a philosophical religion and a way of life, then we are supposed to be thoroughly educated and grounded in it and then follow our own conscience. I have followed 14 leads and have come to this conclusion: Sikhi teaches love of the Creator and tremendous respect for life. Given that, I think most Sikhs would agree with what I have written, and please feel free to post disagreement with me. Whether for or opposed to abortion, I think most people would agree that abortion, even when necessary, is sad. One outcome that is always true is that there is a dead baby or a dead nascent human. **************** NOTES [1 ][URL='https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2013%2Fapr%2F08%2Fabortion-refusal-death-ireland-hindu-woman&h=ATM46QvKxXJCHqr_oHQfx-1r-S4JpPlwqfJnzUmyf13n61If-Ovszb1H4-s3SbiqkCFq7ihryHHa_V2HIntYSB3e2s1KdUvsktF4yItyXv0hG2YdzIqOtw-VCX2GDS8VrQvtgQ']https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/08/abortion-refusal-death-ireland-hindu-woman[/URL] [2][URL='https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2018%2Fmay%2F26%2Fsavita-halappanavar-father-thanks-irish-voters-for-historic-abortion-vote&h=ATMWt20A3vNoxhTy7J53vKR_c4XOZCLNSXhCZF3Et2elwrpVp2fdrod532TGSoLPimn55Zxgt3oM92H1OSx1p2yHuZ7gy4BDi9dyc2PuEd-4yXsYmuG1aht-4t3arVRUuF1GzA']https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/savita-halappanavar-father-thanks-irish-voters-for-historic-abortion-vote[/URL] [3] [URL='https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fen.oxforddictionaries.com%2Fdefinition%2Ffetus&h=ATPqCVglviXYPEYzWitaMvEhormUobT9Yr2q4Sn8aXu-NQfVh3O7WcI7BJDWRbyUWp98h2XjcOApWK-X0C0RjM1K2Xp1wjjTjQxvRIhIWZwKEaCMDfSNIQxPSWQjw8Stlw5KyQ']https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fetus[/URL] [4] the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change. [5] [URL="https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/roe-v-wade"]Roe v. Wade - Jan 22, 1973 - HISTORY.com[/URL] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Hard Talk
Abortion Legalized In Ireland - My Views
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top