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A Discussion Of McLeod And The Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look
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<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 97612" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p><strong>I agree but there should a substance to look into. How come only Bhai Bano story interests them?</strong></p><p><strong></strong> <strong>The funny thing is that these skeptical people say about rituals mentioned in Bano-Bir, they think these rituals were not eradicated by Guru himself( Laughable), there are many Guru Vaakas by Fifth Nanak in which rituals are condemned.(SGGS 216)</strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: maroon"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%89%E0%A9%9C%E0%A9%80" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗਉੜੀ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਾਲਾ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਹਲਾ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A9%AB" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੫</span> </a>[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: maroon">॥[/FONT]</span> </strong><strong><span style="color: maroon"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਨੁ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%B0" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਵਰ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਆ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%87" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਰਥੇ</span> </a>[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: maroon">॥[/FONT]</span> </strong><strong><span style="color: maroon"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AA" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਪ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%AA" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਪ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AE" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੰਜਮ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਮ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%87" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਮਾਣੇ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਇਹਿ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%93%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%88" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਓਰੈ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%87" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੂਸੇ</span> </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A5%A5%E0%A9%A7%E0%A5%A5" target="_blank">॥[/FONT]<span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧</span>॥[/FONT] </a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਾਉ</span> </a>[/FONT]</span></strong><strong><span style="color: maroon">॥[/FONT]</span> </strong></p><p> <strong>Ga▫oṛī mālā mėhlā 5.[/FONT] </strong><strong>Har bin avar kir▫ā birthe.[/FONT] </strong><strong>Jap ṯap sanjam karam kamāṇe ihi orai mūse. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT] </strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: navy">Gauri Mala 5th Guru.[/FONT]</span> </strong><strong><span style="color: navy">Without remembering God, all other deeds are vain.[/FONT]</span> </strong><strong><span style="color: navy">The performance of lip recitation, penance, self-mortification, and other rites, all this is plundered near at hand at hand. Pause.[/FONT]</span> </strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਵਰ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"> = [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੋਰ।</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਆ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"> = [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਮ।</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੰਜਮ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"> = [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਨ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨੂੰ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਲੋਂ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰੋਕਣ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਤਨ।</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਇਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"> = {'[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਇਹ</span></span><span style="color: #114700">' [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੋਂ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਹੁ</span></span><span style="color: #114700">-[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਚਨ</span></span><span style="color: #114700">}[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700">।[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਓਰੈ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"> = [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੀ।</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੂਸੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"> = [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਠੱਗੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਂਦੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਨ</span></span><span style="color: #114700">, [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲੁੱਟੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਂਦੇ</span></span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਨ</span></span><span style="color: #114700">।[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #114700"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧।ਰਹਾਉ।</span></span></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>[/FONT]</strong><span style="color: black">([/FONT]</span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੇ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਾਈ</span></span><span style="color: black">!) [/FONT]</span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੇ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਿਮਰਨ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੋਂ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਨਾ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੋਰ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਾਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: black"> ([/FONT]</span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਿਥੇ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੋਏ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਾਰਮਿਕ</span></span><span style="color: black">) [/FONT]</span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੰਮ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਿਅਰਥ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਨ</span></span> <strong> When Guru sits on a seat and preaches against rituals, how would people stay around Guru when they see rituals being performed in his house? It just doesn’t add up. Dr Sahib Singh ji has done a logical analysis proving that the story of Bhai Bano wrong since it doesn’t measure up to the truth. Shouldn’t we listen to above Guru Vaakas by him instead of chasing the claimed missing lines. Most of the Gurbani is not even understood by these so called scholars and these lines are the solution of their appetite. Why they are not satisfied with Guru’s own words where he values rituals nothing literally? Is the whole concept of ritualism in SGGS is changed due to a few lines found in Bhai Bano-Bir? As put it by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, it is just a tale of deception started from Guru Times and still it continues. </strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 97612, member: 5889"] [B]I agree but there should a substance to look into. How come only Bhai Bano story interests them? [/B] [B]The funny thing is that these skeptical people say about rituals mentioned in Bano-Bir, they think these rituals were not eradicated by Guru himself( Laughable), there are many Guru Vaakas by Fifth Nanak in which rituals are condemned.(SGGS 216)[/B] [B][COLOR=maroon][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%97%E0%A8%89%E0%A9%9C%E0%A9%80"][FONT=Raavi]ਗਉੜੀ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE"][FONT=Raavi]ਮਾਲਾ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE"][FONT=Raavi]ਮਹਲਾ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A9%AB"][FONT=Raavi]੫[/FONT] [/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=maroon]॥[/FONT][/COLOR] [/B][B][COLOR=maroon][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF"][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81"][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਨੁ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%85%E0%A8%B5%E0%A8%B0"][FONT=Raavi]ਅਵਰ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%8D%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86"][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਆ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%A5%E0%A9%87"][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਰਥੇ[/FONT] [/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=maroon]॥[/FONT][/COLOR] [/B][B][COLOR=maroon][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AA"][FONT=Raavi]ਜਪ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A8%AA"][FONT=Raavi]ਤਪ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%AE"][FONT=Raavi]ਸੰਜਮ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%AE"][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਮ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A3%E0%A9%87"][FONT=Raavi]ਕਮਾਣੇ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF"][FONT=Raavi]ਇਹਿ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%93%E0%A8%B0%E0%A9%88"][FONT=Raavi]ਓਰੈ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A9%82%E0%A8%B8%E0%A9%87"][FONT=Raavi]ਮੂਸੇ[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A5%A5%E0%A9%A7%E0%A5%A5"]॥[/FONT][FONT=Raavi]੧[/FONT]॥[/FONT] [/URL][URL="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%89"][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT] [/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=maroon]॥[/FONT][/COLOR] [/B] [B]Ga▫oṛī mālā mėhlā 5.[/FONT] [/B][B]Har bin avar kir▫ā birthe.[/FONT] [/B][B]Jap ṯap sanjam karam kamāṇe ihi orai mūse. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT] [/B] [B][COLOR=navy]Gauri Mala 5th Guru.[/FONT][/COLOR] [/B][B][COLOR=navy]Without remembering God, all other deeds are vain.[/FONT][/COLOR] [/B][B][COLOR=navy]The performance of lip recitation, penance, self-mortification, and other rites, all this is plundered near at hand at hand. Pause.[/FONT][/COLOR] [/B] [B][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਅਵਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700] = [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਹੋਰ।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700] = [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਮ।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਸੰਜਮ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700] = [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਮਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਨੂੰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਵਲੋਂ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਰੋਕਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਦੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਜਤਨ।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਇਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700] = {'[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਇਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700]' [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਤੋਂ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਬਹੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700]-[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਵਚਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700]}[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਓਰੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700] = [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਉਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਉਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਹੀ।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਮੂਸੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700] = [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਠੱਗੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਂਦੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਹਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700], [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਲੁੱਟੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਂਦੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]ਹਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#114700][FONT=Raavi]੧।ਰਹਾਉ।[/FONT][/COLOR] [/FONT][/B][COLOR=black]([/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਹੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਭਾਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]!) [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਦੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਸਿਮਰਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਤੋਂ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਨਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਹੋਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਸਾਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black] ([/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਮਿਥੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਹੋਏ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਧਾਰਮਿਕ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]) [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਕੰਮ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਵਿਅਰਥ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਹਨ[/FONT][/COLOR] [B] When Guru sits on a seat and preaches against rituals, how would people stay around Guru when they see rituals being performed in his house? It just doesn’t add up. Dr Sahib Singh ji has done a logical analysis proving that the story of Bhai Bano wrong since it doesn’t measure up to the truth. Shouldn’t we listen to above Guru Vaakas by him instead of chasing the claimed missing lines. Most of the Gurbani is not even understood by these so called scholars and these lines are the solution of their appetite. Why they are not satisfied with Guru’s own words where he values rituals nothing literally? Is the whole concept of ritualism in SGGS is changed due to a few lines found in Bhai Bano-Bir? As put it by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, it is just a tale of deception started from Guru Times and still it continues. [/B] [/QUOTE]
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