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ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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<blockquote data-quote="P J Singh" data-source="post: 224668" data-attributes="member: 25524"><p>Guru Fetah Ji:</p><p></p><p>I believe, Gurmat is a holistic pursuit. If we put aside this foundational premise than we run the risk of mis-interpreting Gurbani and more specifically we misconstrue the sabads that we deliberately scan and select to make a point. The very approach of selecting a sabad suggests that we have pre-conceived idea that we wish to justify by finding a sabad from AGGS that supports our presumed belief. It is like we are using Gurbani to justify our own beliefs rather than learning from Gurmat to reconfigure and reform our thinking. What we are doing is contrary to why Gurmat is given to us.</p><p></p><p>Here are three points for your kind reflection:</p><p></p><p>1) I see you state in your post: “84 Lakh is metaphor used by Gurus for "countless" characteristics that a human goes through in this life itself”. Can you please help me understand how would you infer that half of these characteristics are in fact related to underwater species.</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%87" target="_blank">ਆਨੀਲੇ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%AD" target="_blank">ਕੁੰਭ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%87" target="_blank">ਭਰਾਈਲੇ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%8A%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%95" target="_blank">ਊਦਕ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0" target="_blank">ਠਾਕੁਰ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89" target="_blank">ਕਉ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਇਸਨਾਨੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%89" target="_blank">ਕਰਉ </a>॥</td></tr><tr><td><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%B8" target="_blank">ਬਇਆਲੀਸ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%96" target="_blank">ਲਖ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%80" target="_blank">ਜੀ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%B2" target="_blank">ਜਲ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank">ਮਹਿ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87" target="_blank">ਹੋਤੇ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81" target="_blank">ਬੀਠਲੁ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%88%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਭੈਲਾ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87" target="_blank">ਕਾਇ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%89" target="_blank">ਕਰਉ </a>॥੧॥</td></tr></table><p>2) I see you have quoted Kabir Sahib’s Sabad. The Rahoo of this Sabad (ਹੁਕਮੈ ਬੁਿਝ ਸਮਾਵਿਹਗੇ) is conveying the same massage that Is pronounced at the outset of AGGS. That is, if we follow the Hukum, we will become Sachaira! Kabir ji is asking us to become Sachiara by encouraging us to follow the Hukum</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B5" target="_blank">ਕਿਵ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%9A%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਸਚਿਆਰਾ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%88%E0%A8%90" target="_blank">ਹੋਈਐ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B5" target="_blank">ਕਿਵ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%82%E0%A9%9C%E0%A9%88" target="_blank">ਕੂੜੈ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%9F%E0%A9%88" target="_blank">ਤੁਟੈ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank">ਪਾਲਿ </a>॥</td></tr><tr><td><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank">ਹੁਕਮਿ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88" target="_blank">ਰਜਾਈ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9A%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE" target="_blank">ਚਲਣਾ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95" target="_blank">ਨਾਨਕ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86" target="_blank">ਲਿਖਿਆ </a><a href="https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF" target="_blank">ਨਾਲਿ </a>॥੧॥</td></tr><tr><td><br /> 3) You quote Kabir Sahib’s Sabad to support your entrenched belief that Sikhi does not believe in afterlife. When I read this sabad, I also get the same message that there is no “ਪੁਨਰਿਪ ਜਨਮੁ”. But if we read this Sabad a bit more thoughtfully, it will become clear that Kabir sahib is asking us to become “ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ” and he is talking about such a person ( who has thus become ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ ) that there is no afterlife for such a person. KABIR SAHIB IS NOT TALKING ABOUT NO AFTERLIFE at least not in this sabad.<br /> <br /> WGKK WGKF.</td></tr></table></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="P J Singh, post: 224668, member: 25524"] Guru Fetah Ji: I believe, Gurmat is a holistic pursuit. If we put aside this foundational premise than we run the risk of mis-interpreting Gurbani and more specifically we misconstrue the sabads that we deliberately scan and select to make a point. The very approach of selecting a sabad suggests that we have pre-conceived idea that we wish to justify by finding a sabad from AGGS that supports our presumed belief. It is like we are using Gurbani to justify our own beliefs rather than learning from Gurmat to reconfigure and reform our thinking. What we are doing is contrary to why Gurmat is given to us. Here are three points for your kind reflection: 1) I see you state in your post: “84 Lakh is metaphor used by Gurus for "countless" characteristics that a human goes through in this life itself”. Can you please help me understand how would you infer that half of these characteristics are in fact related to underwater species. [TABLE] [TR] [TD][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%87']ਆਨੀਲੇ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A9%B0%E0%A8%AD']ਕੁੰਭ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%87']ਭਰਾਈਲੇ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%8A%E0%A8%A6%E0%A8%95']ਊਦਕ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0']ਠਾਕੁਰ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%89']ਕਉ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A9%81']ਇਸਨਾਨੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%89']ਕਰਉ [/URL]॥[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A8%87%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%B8']ਬਇਆਲੀਸ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%96']ਲਖ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A9%80']ਜੀ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%B2']ਜਲ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%B9%E0%A8%BF']ਮਹਿ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%87']ਹੋਤੇ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AC%E0%A9%80%E0%A8%A0%E0%A8%B2%E0%A9%81']ਬੀਠਲੁ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AD%E0%A9%88%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BE']ਭੈਲਾ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%87']ਕਾਇ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%89']ਕਰਉ [/URL]॥੧॥[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] 2) I see you have quoted Kabir Sahib’s Sabad. The Rahoo of this Sabad (ਹੁਕਮੈ ਬੁਿਝ ਸਮਾਵਿਹਗੇ) is conveying the same massage that Is pronounced at the outset of AGGS. That is, if we follow the Hukum, we will become Sachaira! Kabir ji is asking us to become Sachiara by encouraging us to follow the Hukum [TABLE] [TR] [TD][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B5']ਕਿਵ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B8%E0%A8%9A%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BE']ਸਚਿਆਰਾ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%8B%E0%A8%88%E0%A8%90']ਹੋਈਐ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%B5']ਕਿਵ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%95%E0%A9%82%E0%A9%9C%E0%A9%88']ਕੂੜੈ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A4%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%9F%E0%A9%88']ਤੁਟੈ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%AA%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF']ਪਾਲਿ [/URL]॥[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B9%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%95%E0%A8%AE%E0%A8%BF']ਹੁਕਮਿ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%9C%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%88']ਰਜਾਈ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%9A%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%A3%E0%A8%BE']ਚਲਣਾ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%95']ਨਾਨਕ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%96%E0%A8%BF%E0%A8%86']ਲਿਖਿਆ [/URL][URL='https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A8%BE%E0%A8%B2%E0%A8%BF']ਨਾਲਿ [/URL]॥੧॥[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 3) You quote Kabir Sahib’s Sabad to support your entrenched belief that Sikhi does not believe in afterlife. When I read this sabad, I also get the same message that there is no “ਪੁਨਰਿਪ ਜਨਮੁ”. But if we read this Sabad a bit more thoughtfully, it will become clear that Kabir sahib is asking us to become “ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ” and he is talking about such a person ( who has thus become ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਹੁ ) that there is no afterlife for such a person. KABIR SAHIB IS NOT TALKING ABOUT NO AFTERLIFE at least not in this sabad. WGKK WGKF.[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/QUOTE]
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