Is Sikh Belief of God Scientific?

Is Sikh Belief of God Scientific?

Sikh Holy Scripture starts with Mool-Mantra or Basic Principle in Jap (SGGS, p 1) that gives attributes of God/universal energy (Ek O). When we accept God as a spirit that exists in each and every person, then it describes attributes of spiritual state of mind/soul/self. “That state of mind is without fear (Nirbhau), without enmity (Nirvair), immortal without the fear of death or birth (Ajooni), complete within itself (Saebhang)-- timeless, ageless, and formless (Akal Murat)". A few blessed ones (like Guru Nanak) realize that state of mind (Nirbhau, Nirvair, Akal Murat, Ajuni Saebhang, Gur Parsad! Mool-Mantra or Basic Principle in Jap, SGGS, p 1). Gurbani expects human beings to comprehend and practice these attributes of God in their life so that they could become God-oriented (gurmukh). We know that only physical body ages, spirit is not affected by time or age or birth or death. Sikh scriptures hold that all humans are capable of achieving union with God while still alive by realizing the Divine within. That’s how man can become one with God. “Science, Religion & Spirituality”

[Is this concept Scientific? I will post it in second part]

[Is this concept Scientific –part 2]

God concept according to Sikh scripture is very scientific and of practical value, if interpreted correctly. It is not just a blind faith. The very first word of Ek Onkar in Mool- Mantar expresses exactly the same concept which is the foundation of all modern relativistic science: E=mc2. Ek Onkar: The Creator (energy) and the Creation (matter) are ONE! In other words, creator/creation or energy/matter is inter-convertible. But the total energy is one constant universal reality, the god. It is eternal (akaal moorat) and does not take birth (ajooni). For example, mool mantar (basic principle) should be used to describe the attributes of God that resides in each one of us and makes us spiritual, and not the God which resides outside this world sitting somewhere in imaginary heaven controlling our fate as many religions believe. In other words use it to describe spiritual state of mind that, for example, is without fear and enmity (nirbhau, nirvair).

When we believe God as universal energy; it exists as nirgun, sargun (energy, matter). God according to gurbani is in creation and creation is in God (Khalik khalak, khalak mein khalik). So it is both sirgun and nirgun… Self-creation (saebhang) is another characteristic. Anyone who believes otherwise is either confused or just want to cause confusion

Courtesy: “IN SEARCH OF GOD” http://amzn.to/hXsaXR Digital Books!

There is nothing which can come up automatically. There is some one to create it. Universe is so vast that we cannot imagine it. Can you name as to who could create it? If not then you can take any name God, Ram, Allah wahiguru etc.

The question has used the word ‘Belief’ and its meaning is relevant to the answer.
Belief means -
something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion.

The Gurbani repeatedly uses the word Sach meaning truth/true. The purpose is to have faith that it becomes an individual's religious
conviction of the truth of some statement stated as the reality. The Mool Mantar is truth and reality.

It is strange that we believe the scientific theories as true even though these have underlying assumptions.

Another point that must be kept in mind that the mool mantar is not also a concept meaning of which is that it is an abstract or generic idea .

The Gurbani asks for faith in Guru’s stated Mool Mantar that describes the reality and the Karta, the Ekankar.
Faith means to have a conviction that something is true even when there is no proof. This meaning of faith is derived from Japji where the Suniye and Maniye pauri explain what faith in the Sach manifests.
The ‘ Heh Bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach’ in the second part of the Mool that explains the state of mind during Jap wherein what is made a conviction without doubts becomes part of the truth experience when the future becomes our next present.

So the very discussion as to whether it is scientific would become contrary to what Guru Nanak had stressed again and again in Gurbani.
Better to be Gurmukh and stay away from doubts which is Maya.

Why does Sikh belief has to be seen through Scientific eye ?
Why isn't other way around ?
Why are trying to get scientific approval ?
Science is soo tangled itself with its own assumptions and theories.
Science gives one product today but gives number of effects of that product after decades....
Gurbani is Aad Sach Jugaad Sach, truth today, same tomorrow.

By the rule of negation have you got any alternative to creator of universe named God?

dalvinder45 said:

There is nothing which can come up automatically. There is some one to create it. Universe is so vast that we cannot imagine it. Can you name as to who could create it? If not then you can take any name God, Ram, Allah wahiguru etc.

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Thanks for raising very interesting questions about God. The concept that makes most sense IMHO is One God-one spirit, which is a common concept in Eastern religions. There is one Universal energy (E= mc2) that we call God, Allah, Ram, Parmatma, Hari, God of the Universe, or any other name we choose. That energy never changes and is constant. That’s is the ultimate truth. Everything is created out of this energy and goes back into this energy. That is why: The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation.(--Guru Granth, p 1350; khalik khalak khalak mein khalik..Kabir Ji). God is Self-Creating (saebhang). We are not talking about electrical energy or nuclear energy or mathematics of energy that does nothing but confusion and take away from the original concept.

dpcpress said:

God concept according to Sikh scripture is very scientific and of practical value,

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M. Shermer defined Science as a collection of methods that produce "a testable body of knowledge open to rejection or confirmations" and the best rationale for using those methods came from great physicist Richard Feynmann:

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that .

Sikh Holy Scritpure is not book of science.Neither the Gurus were Scientist .The realms of Spritual World is not possiable to explore with tools & Languages of Science .It must be examined with heart, the mind and the soul.

Scientific Theories expounded by Guru Nanak were well before acknowledge than the modern science. Please read Scientific Vision of Guru Nanak, Creation of Universe as explained in SGGS and Scientific theories of Guru Nanak written by this researcher and many books written by Dr. D P Singh Science and Sikhism : Conflict and Coherence Dr. D. P. Singh by Hardev Singh Virk Prof Emeritus.

Why does so called moderns want to look at everything in Sikhi through a scientific lense ?
Is science ਅਟੱਲ Or ultimate truth ? Even science says there's a chance of uncertainty in every theory, while there is no uncertainty in Gurbani.

A_seeker said:

Sikh Holy Scritpure is not book of science.Neither the Gurus were Scientist ....

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True. As far as Sikh religion is concerned, scientific and logical evaluation is making it meaningful for the current generation of science and technology using science as a modern tool to explain it. Science is just a powerful tool and is not competing with any religions. We should not be afraid of so called modern scientific approach. Any fear of science changing or challenging gurbani is unfounded. Because gurbani can stand the risk and damage of scientific logic breaking the myths. Scientific logic certainly has a potential to improve our interpretation and understanding; and means nothing more than understanding the rational behind what Gurbani says as against any dogmatic belief. The fact is, it was scientific findings by Herbert Benson of Harvard Med School that made Mahesh Yogi, the popular Meditation Guru, a well known world figure and meditation a house-hold name in the west. I will not be surprised if philosophy of GGS presented in a scientific way makes it the best spiritual scripture for the entire humanity.

I may share more about science and religion later.....

Sat Sri Akal all.

As I understand the essence embedded in SGGS ji, one of the fundamental aspects is human understanding and its limitations. The Guru ji warn us that if we attempt to understand all, it is not only futile but also not possible. Hence all such discussion and logic which we believe is the right way to look at things is flawed; and even unnecessary. The universe may not be open to binary interpretations except this is how most 1/0 logic and the systems built upon it are based.

These discussions are for sure entertaining but mostly meaningless.

In the interests of entertainment we can all participate and share.

No offence meant as I am as guilty and limited, if not more so, than all the learned people at SPN.

Ambarsaria said:

Sat Sri Akal all.

As I understand the essence embedded in SGGS ji, one of the fundamental aspects is human understanding and its limitations. The Guru ji warn us that if we attempt to understand all, it is not only futile but also not possible.
These discussions are for sure entertaining but mostly meaningless.
In the interests of entertainment we can all participate and share.

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IMHO, Guru Ji not only want us to understand but to understand and practice it, Ambarsaria Ji. All the allegorical examples are for a common person to understand the philosophy behind the Gurbani verses. Those who study the content and are learners is what being a Sikhs is all about. It is understanding, analysis and practice that lead us to spiritual path. That will make us a loving and caring person. Thanks for your interest.

dpcpress ji learning is inherent in almost everything whether we understand how it is in these or not. It does not change anything. A little ant or a virus are organisms of sufficient memory and complexity whether directly or through their interactions with the environs around.

I do agree with your assertion and approach to understanding through collaborative reasoning. For example scientific ideas with concepts and vast wisdom in SGGS. I do believe that issues arise when we get into extrapolating and try to second guess if Guruji wrote and gave us wisdom as to being scientists. To me their wisdom was boundless and beyond our visions or abilities to comprehend.

I have observed a lot where there is somehow assertion that Sikhism is more of a science than other religions. In my dialog with different religious people it is many time used to establish superiority of one religion versus another. An example, there is mention of elephants thrown into ether where they circle the earth, i.e. the space travel was invented millennia ago. Similarly mention of woman's child bearing experiences and instances in a wring makes the wise writings as all the science about women's health was totally described and detailed in addition to everything all the scince about everything.

Science likes results which usually requires converging towards a fact or a theory. There is inherent danger in converging too much (by definition it is narrowing); whereas the expanse of wisdom in SGGS encourages us to learn ever more but not become narrow.

I heard a wonderful musical performance of Kabir' ji's. I was in awe and I share it below as this certainly challenged me as it literally destroys the concept of what/who is good or bad, etc. Here it goes and hopefully it invokes some thoughts;


I certainly find it enriches as there never would be any end to human learning.

Sat Sri Akal

Ambarsaria said:

I have observed a lot where there is somehow assertion that Sikhism is more of a science than other religions. .......

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No. Sikhism is not more of a science but more scientific because it is one of youngest religions when more logical info was known.
As I have mentioned many time, science is just a powerful tool.
In this age of science and technology, we cannot ignore scientific impact on religion. I tend to believe what Geneticist Dean Hamer of Harvard said in his recent book "God Gene" that spirituality is in our nature (genetic-DNA: probably involving many different genes), which is nurtured by proper environment. Whether we admit it or not, science and technology has become a modem day religion although it is perceived as enemy of religion by many theologians. Today, the risk and damage to religion is only when scientific logic breaks myths,….

Courtesy: “Soul and Reincarnation” http://amzn.to/gwaTWs dr sukhraj s dhillon, Books

dpcpress ji thanks for your post.

The question perhaps is the following;

• Is "philosophy" partly "science" or "science" partly "philosophy?

OR

• Both "philosophy" and "science" exist together in harmony and more so in some aspects as covered in SGGS ji?

The traditional views in this regard were that these were separate realms. I don't believe so and I believe that indirectly you have described similar in your very well written posts.

Perhaps where I differ in some extent is to take a concept or item like "God" or "creator" and start defining it as a scientific theory. The rigidity of scientific proof does not lend itself to these based on all the posts in this thread or my understanding of some of the SGGS ji. I agree with you that some of the writings in SGGS ji do allude to some fundamental aspects of science like all is one or of one, etc. This in a way is consistent with the scientific concepts like wave-particle duality versus waves being separate from matter. I am no expert in these matters in terms of details or proofs but can relate to it conceptually.

I hope this clarifies my expression in this thread.

Regards and Sat Sri Akal

Philosophy is the mother of all science viz its discovery of the principles of logical reasoning which is admittedly the vehicle of all scientific discoveries thus far.

Standard riposte of many materialists with regards to the nature of the universe is to assert that religion and science represent "non-overlapping magisteria" (NOMA), by which they assert "a blessedly simple and entirely conventional resolution to ... the supposed conflict between science and religion" (Non-overlapping magisteria - Wikipedia)

While NOMA is a convenient paradigm, nevertheless it simply sidesteps the awkward fact that many tuks in Gurbani are accord with observations made by scientists, only hundreds of years later.

Uniquely among all religions, the explanatory power of Gurbani for both magisteria is something that remains unexplained... unless one assumes the hypothesis that Nanak's revelations are True!