Islam What Do You Think Of Islam?

[aristotle]

What then about Kabir, Farid and Bikhan, who have also contributed to the make up of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Were they brainwashed as well?

Would the Muslim bhagats approve of the Boko Haram, Al Qaeda or the Taliban? I don't think so.

In fact, the ultra-liberal Islamic discussions exist only online. Muslims in the diaspora may not show the same nature of aggressiveness as their counterparts in the Islamic countries, which is but natural as Islamic faith is a minority in the West. The subjugation of minorities in Islamic countries is not hidden from anyone. Islamic hardliner presence is a real problem.which needs to addressed rather than defending and evading.

What about the Ahmaddias, who's very motto is "love for all, hate for none." Are they brainwashed?

Well, you may be offending a large part of Islamic community by calling Ahmedis as 'Muslims'. Mainstream Islam has never approved of Ahmedi faith.
In fact, Ahmedis are banned from professing their religion in Pakistan, the only Islamic country with a considerable Ahmedi population. Despite of the low key existence of the community, their mosques and cemeteries are regularly attacked. I hope you have heard about Anti Ahmedi riots of Pakistan.

 

[aristotle]

the 9/11 terrorists and the Boston bombing terrorists are no more reprsentative of Islam than the Air Indian flight 182 terrorists are of Sikhs.
The Air India incident remains, to date, the single largest mass murder in Canadian history, I'm sure we're all well aware that this doesn't make every Sikh in Canada a killer/ bomber.

The Sikh community, despite being oppresed since its very inception has never been supportive of terror. The Kanishka bombers were Sikhs, that is the truth. Another truth is that the incident was widely condemned within the community. I haven't met a single Sikh who wears the Kanishka bombing as a badge of superiority or bravado. The only reason why the Sikh homeland movement failed was the non-cooperation of the mainstream Sikh community woth the hardliners. Even during the height of the Sikh struggle, the hardliners used to fail at the Sikh electorate, despite that the wounds of Operation Bluestar and '84 genocide were still fresh at that time.

Shall we compare the number of terror attacks by the Sikh terrorists and Islamic terrorists in the last 10 years? What would the score be?
Umm......Zero versus a considerable number.....
Do we still stand to put the Sikh community in the same shoes as the Muslim comnunity is? Nah...

Do the Islamic hardliners get the same kind of condemnation in the Muslim-majority countries? I am yet to see such an instance.

 

[harmanpreet singh]

Sat Sri Akal.

Hi exploringSikhi ji ,

my post in this thread was to point out that it is silly to post verses out of the Qur'an or Hadiths without considering the environmental developments which led to them being 'revealed'.

so , early conflict with Pagans lead to such verses ?

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."




but The Sikhs had even worse conflict with Islamic empire ,Fifth Guru sahib was made to sit on fire , NInth Guru sahib was beheaded for not accepting Islam , Sons of Dasam Guru Age 6-8 Was bricked alive . but no where in Gurbani you will find such verses targeting ones faith infact Guru Sahib asked us "recongnise all human race as ONE "

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥
Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, recognize all human race as one and the same.

ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.(Guru Gobind Singh ji)


i feel the absence of such Universal brotherhood expression in Islamic Scripture is cause of such extremism .

Take Sikhism as an example, a religion with less than 30 million adherents worldwide and there is still feverous dispute over issues such as eating meat, reincarnation, karma and Amrit Sanchar, all stuff that should be pretty basic, you'd expect most Sikhs to be able to come to an agreement on the proper way of doing things, but the more I interact with Sikhs, the more I find that individual Sikhs tend to do things their own way

One can't compare the difference of opinion among Sikhs with Shia ,Sunni,Ahmadi bombing each other .

I do find the notion of looking into 21st century middle-eastern turmoils while disregarding "drone strikes" and other western forms of intervention a tad bit puzzling. That's like telling someone about the rise in Sikh militancy in the second half of the 20th century without making any mention of operation bluestar and other persecution of Sikhs at the hands of the Indian government. Nothing unites people like a common enemy, there are Muslims who are ticked off by American and European intervention in their day-to-day lives, all of us would be too if we had foreign governments dictating our lives. And because of this, there ARE Muslims who have decided to take matters into their own hands. I do not condone the actions of these people and the organizations to which they belong, but it really isn't difficult to understand what led to them engaging in acts of terrorism, western intervention cannot be ignored, this is not my opinion, there are more than enough voices within the United States of America who have and continue to echo my sentiments, it is there for everyone to see, after all, who do you think armed Al-Qaeda in the first place?

Sikhs/Indians know Islam from centuries prior to 21st century and western interference , The primary aim of Islamic rulers was to convert Indians to Islam either by force or anyother way ,Timur has admitted the killing of One hundred thousand (one lakh ) Hindus in one single day in autobiography , even now you can find thousands of temples which were converted into Mosques in India , it will take another thread to mention the barbaric conversions done by likes of Aurangzeb , Nadir Shah , abdali .

What then about Kabir, Farid and Bikhan, who have also contributed to the make up of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Were they brainwashed as well?

just post the below shalok by Farid ji in any Islamic forum ,

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Fareed, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.
ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਾਂ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੭੫॥
Whom can we call bad? There is none without Him. ||75||

they will consider it a biggest Shirk , and in Islamic regime its offense worth death penalty as was done to Mansoor for saying Anl- Haq by stoning him .

Most of these "violent", "evil" Qur'anic verses and Hadith quotes have been explained by Muslims all over the internet, they explanations are literally just a click away. The other stuff can be cleared up by actually asking Muslims and not coming to our own false conclusions.

i found none who could explained/ justified to me the Quranic verse related to "beating Wife ", i will be thankful to you if you can .



Aslaam .

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Harmanpreet Ji,

your questions about explaining/justifying verses could all be answered by Muslims, I have already said that I do not wish to discuss Islam on this forum. One other thing I hope you remember is that I am a non-Muslim, I do not agree with everything in the Qur'an, there are verses in there that, even after reading the explanations, I still disagree with. You should read some of the justifications from Muslims, not from me, I am not an authority.

I disagree with a lot of what has been said since my last post in this thread, some of it I know is 100% false, however, as I have already mentioned, people can take up their Islam inquiries with someone else.

One thing in your post did stick out to me, and I will talk about it because it ties in with Sikhi. This part here:

just post the below shalok by Farid ji in any Islamic forum ,

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Fareed, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.
ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਾਂ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੭੫॥
Whom can we call bad? There is none without Him. ||75||

they will consider it a biggest Shirk , and in Islamic regime its offense worth death penalty as was done to Mansoor for saying Anl- Haq by stoning him .

I will not argue with you on it being shirk, let us assume (rightfully or wrongfully, because I am not 100% sure) that you are correct, that Farid, and by extension the other "Muslim" contributors in Guru Granth Sahib were committing shirk.

You do realize that if this is true, it takes them out of the folds of Islam, right? If they were committing shirk, then they were not Muslims.

This is important to point out because every Sikh I have met to date has told me that they were all Muslims. But going by your reponse, they were not and judging by the "appreciations" your post got, it seems like you are not the only one to hold that opinion.

If this is the case, then Sikhs need to stop calling these men Muslims. It is intellectual dishonesty to refer to Farid, Kabir and co. as Muslims when it is to your advantage, you know, when telling non-Sikhs about how Sikhism is the "only major religion in the world to have writings from members of OTHER religions (Islam and Hinduism) in it's holy scripture, look how tolerant and inclusive Sikhism is!", and then, when downplaying Islam, insist that they were committing shirk, and by implication, were not "real Muslims."

And by the way, if this is true for the "Muslim" contributors of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I also have my suspicions about whether the "Hindu" contributors were "real" Hindus or not. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't.

There are 2 possibilities:

a) The Muslims contributors to Guru Granth Sahib were not in fact "real" Muslims, in which case Sikhs need to stop referring to them as such when trying to prove Sikhism's "openness" to non-Sikhs, you then no longer have the right to state that Guru Granth Sahib has any Islamic writings within it's pages, or...

b) Farid, Kabir and the rest WERE "real Muslims" (not committing shirk), in which case, I would like to ask the SPN members who seem to think that Muslims are brainwashed, that Islam makes people brain dead, why they are proud to have the writings of these brain dead men in their holy scripture? Why they are proud to have one of these brain dead men lay the founding brick of the Harmandir Sahib? And most importantly, what they think of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, who for some reason decided it would be a good idea to have one of these brain washed men as his best friend and most trusted companion. Reading through this thread, it is obvious who these members are.

Either way, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[aristotle]

There are 2 possibilities:

a) The Muslims contributors to Guru Granth Sahib were not in fact "real" Muslims, in which case Sikhs need to stop referring to them as such when trying to prove Sikhism's "openness" to non-Sikhs, you then no longer have the right to state that Guru Granth Sahib has any Islamic writings within it's pages, or...

To start with, Guru Granth Sahib does not have any Islamic writings in its volumes, nor has anyone ever claimed so, that would be like diluting the philosophy of Sikhi, which in its pristine form, is unique of the Abrahamic and Dharmic religions.

b) Farid, Kabir and the rest WERE "real Muslims" (not committing shirk), in which case, I would like to ask the SPN members who seem to think that Muslims are brainwashed, that Islam makes people brain dead, why they are proud to have the writings of these brain dead men in their holy scripture? Why they are proud to have one of these brain dead men lay the founding brick of the Harmandir Sahib? And most importantly, what they think of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, who for some reason decided it would be a good idea to have one of these brain washed men as his best friend and most trusted companion. Reading through this thread, it is obvious who these members are.

Either way, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't think all people of any community are either 'good' or 'bad' in totality. But it is most frequently the visible majority of that counts, and that is what gives rise to the stereotypes.

That is not to miss the fact that the burden of the terrorizers should not be heaped upon the shoulders of the innocent Muslim who walks a couple of blocks down the road to share Christmas festivity with his friends. That would be just injustice. I wouldn't put Malala Yousafzai and Talibani terrorists on the same bus.

Talking of Islamic terrorism, it is not a new phenomenon, it existed even during the times of Ghenghis Khan, Babur and Aurangzeb, then they were called invaders and oppressors, and now they are called terrorists. What is unfortunate is that the Muslim clergy, the Qazis and Imams have played in the hands of this divisive forces all the time long, and not without their own agenda of furthering their interests.

So, were Kabir, Farid, Bhikhan or Mardana 'brainwashed' like the Islamic invaders of that time? Surely not. Instead, they constantly raised the bar of communal tolerance with their all-inclusive philosophy. But that does not absolve the larger part of Muslim community from the blot of terrorism and oppression of minorities that has often taken place under Islamic and Shariah rule.

Neither Islam is bad, nor are all Muslims bad. But, I would still say the Muslim community needs to do a lot more homework at tolerance and Universal brotherhood, and actions speak louder than words; just opining that 'Islam means peace' is simply not enough!

 

[ExploringSikhi]

To start with, Guru Granth Sahib does not have any Islamic writings in its volumes, nor has anyone ever claimed so, that would be like diluting the philosophy of Sikhi, which in its pristine form, is unique of the Abrahamic and Dharmic religions.

I'm sure you know what I meant, but I will clarify anyways: If Kabir, Fraid and the rest were not Muslims, Sikhs do not have the right to claim that Guru Granth Sahib contains the widsom of Muslims saints along with the wisdom of the Sikh Gurus.

I have seen Sikhs bring this point up many times before, that Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains the work of several Muslim poets, to make a show of how inclusive the religion is. If they committed shirk, they are not Muslims, in which case, Guru Granth Sahib is not as diverse as Sikhs often make it out to be.

As for the rest, again, take it up with a Muslim. There are plenty of online Islamic forums.

 

[aristotle]

I'm sure you know what I meant, but I will clarify anyways: If Kabir, Fraid and the rest were not Muslims, Sikhs do not have the right to claim that Guru Granth Sahib contains the widsom of Muslims saints along with the wisdom of the Sikh Gurus.

I have seen Sikhs bring this point up many times before, that Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains the work of several Muslim poets, to make a show of how inclusive the religion is. If they committed shirk, they are not Muslims, in which case, Guru Granth Sahib is not as diverse as Sikhs often make it out to be.

As for the rest, again, take it up with a Muslim. There are plenty of online Islamic forums.

They certainly did not follow Sikhism, and their upbringing was Muslim. Baba Farid is a well known name in Punjabi Sufi Islam, known for its tolerance and inclusive nature, and often coming under the scanner of hardliners for that matter. In fact, this form of Islam was widely practised in Pakistani Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, before General Zia-ul-haq unleashed the Islamisation of Pakistan.

The 'Muslim' authors of Gurbani brought their own understanding of the oneness of the creator and the all-pervading nature of God. This may not be derived directly from the Qur'an, but there are certain elements in their Bani which clearly exemplify their unique metaphors. Whether or not they are considered 'Muslims' by some vested interests does not change anything. The same applies to the Gurbani authors who underwent Dharmic upbringing. It is not without studying their respective hymns that you will understand and experience the diversity of their viewpoints and metaphors, all of which boil down to the Gurmat philosophy. On paper, it is a purely theoretical exercise.

I guess then, the claim of inclusiveness of Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj stand corrected, although everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[Harry Haller]

I'm sure you know what I meant, but I will clarify anyways: If Kabir, Fraid and the rest were not Muslims, Sikhs do not have the right to claim that Guru Granth Sahib contains the widsom of Muslims saints along with the wisdom of the Sikh Gurus.

I have seen Sikhs bring this point up many times before, that Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains the work of several Muslim poets, to make a show of how inclusive the religion is. If they committed shirk, they are not Muslims, in which case, Guru Granth Sahib is not as diverse as Sikhs often make it out to be.

As for the rest, again, take it up with a Muslim. There are plenty of online Islamic forums.

maybe you should change your name to ArguingaboutSikhi........

 

[Ishna]

To be fair all round, the title of the thread is "What Do You Think About Islam?" which is a personal question and invites opinions, and there are bound to be positive as well as negative opinions in any community, and that's unavoidable. The opinions may be based on personal experience, factual or false information, optimism or pessimism, the mood of the poster at the time and a sprinkle of hyperbole just for good measure (we all think we know everything, after all )

The whole premise of the thread invites argument. The only non-argumentative outcome of the thread would be for the asker to take the opinions of people here and stay quiet, but human nature is to correct errors as and when they are detected, and when it comes to religion, well, everyone is wrong to each other, hence, arguments.

If Muslims don't want to know the opinion of others (whether they like that opinion or not) then perhaps they shouldn't ask the personal question "What Do You Think Of Islam?" knowing full well that they will receive a lot of negative responses from pretty much any community to which you pose the question. A better approach, if a Muslim wants to educate a community about the community's perceived wrong understanding, would be to create threads about those specific issues and start discussing the facts.

It seems odd now that a bunch of Sikhs and one Undecided are coming to blows in an Islamic thread!

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

Perhaps a discussion of "What do you think of Sikhi?" would be in order. The question arises, how far would we go in allowing negative opinions?

 

[Ikk Khalsa]

Re: Muslims and Islam.

I haven't come across the verse in the Qur'an (I haven't read the entire thing), but going off of what Muslims have told me, it is both and if you were cremated, your body is restored.

The dead are dead, lying in their graves.

The orthodox Islamic view is that anyone who heard about Islam and did not accept the message will go to hell forever. Those non-Muslims who did not hear about Islam will be given some sort of a test to determine whether they should go to heaven or hell. A pious Muslim will enter heaven, a Muslim who has sinned will spend time in hell before eventually being granted access into heaven.

This childish orthodox Islamic view makes me laugh. Only common denominator behind their views is to convert others by fear or reward depends how you look at it. Why should you take change being good non-muslim when paradise is guaranteed at the end even for bad muslims(who may have committed every kind of crime in their lives including murders and rapes). I feel sorry for those people who fall for this and convert to Islam.

 

[Luckysingh]

I'm sure you know what I meant, but I will clarify anyways: If Kabir, Fraid and the rest were not Muslims, Sikhs do not have the right to claim that Guru Granth Sahib contains the widsom of Muslims saints along with the wisdom of the Sikh Gurus.

I have seen Sikhs bring this point up many times before, that Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains the work of several Muslim poets, to make a show of how inclusive the religion is. If they committed shirk, they are not Muslims, in which case, Guru Granth Sahib is not as diverse as Sikhs often make it out to be.

As for the rest, again, take it up with a Muslim. There are plenty of online Islamic forums.

This means that Sikhs should rightfully claim that we have hindu origins since the background of Guru Nanak ji was pure hindu.

Do you think that Kabirji, Farid ji and others above were preaching Islam ??
Do you think that the Guru Granth Sahib ji contains their bani that is directed in favor of Islam ??

It was nothing to do with Islam if you look carefully, just like Guru Nanak ji's bani was nothing to do with preaching Hinduism either.

I think you have are getting the wrong idea if you start assigning religions by birth to any of the Bhagats and Gurus.

Kabirji spoke more about the oneness and the blind rituals that he encountered in his upbringing as a hindu. Whilst Faridji spoke more about the people lost in religious practices and being blinded from the real Truth.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Are the Prophets like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus etc etc who came long before Islam..actually "Muslims" ?? Or are they JEWS ? Jesus is "CHRISTIAN" or also "JEW"
IF Mulsims can claim these are all "OURS"/OUR PROPHETS..even if they are JEWS..whats the problem with Farid Ji kabir Ji vis a vis SIKHS ?? I dont get it...

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

Are the Prophets like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus etc etc who came long before Islam..actually "Muslims" ?? Or are they JEWS ? Jesus is "CHRISTIAN" or also "JEW"
IF Mulsims can claim these are all "OURS"/OUR PROPHETS..even if they are JEWS..whats the problem with Farid Ji kabir Ji vis a vis SIKHS ?? I dont get it...

The Muslim belief is that we are all born Muslims and then we get corrupted. That is why they call converts "reverts."

So I suppose Jesus and Abraham and all the rest of that bunch were born Muslims. As were you and I.

Unlike Sikhi and Christianity, which are free choices.

An interesting thought. If we are all born Muslims and the price of apostasy is death, are all us who are infidels living under a sharia death sentence??

Waheguru! Sometimes I remember why I so love being Sikh.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The Muslim belief is that we are all born Muslims and then we get corrupted. That is why they call converts "reverts."

So I suppose Jesus and Abraham and all the rest of that bunch were born Muslims. As were you and I.

Unlike Sikhi and Christianity, which are free choices.

An interesting thought. If we are all born Muslims and the price of apostasy is death, are all us who are infidels living under a sharia death sentence??

Waheguru! Sometimes I remember why I so love being Sikh.

BORN SIKH - life long LEARNING...no CHANGES to Creator given sroop..
BORN MUSLIM - One TRACK LESSON...Immediate CHANGES to Creator given Body via circumcision..later on hair removals, beard designs, colourings etc etc ( Mulsims must have a special design beard with yellow colour )

I think its OBVIOUS that ALL HUMANS are BORN SIKH...

 

[aristotle]

The Muslim belief is that we are all born Muslims and then we get corrupted. That is why they call converts "reverts."

So I suppose Jesus and Abraham and all the rest of that bunch were born Muslims. As were you and I.

Unlike Sikhi and Christianity, which are free choices.

An interesting thought. If we are all born Muslims and the price of apostasy is death, are all us who are infidels living under a sharia death sentence??

Waheguru! Sometimes I remember why I so love being Sikh.

Apart from everything naturally being 'Muslim', Islam also asserts that the Prophets prior to Muhammad were originally followers of the Muslim faith. They believe that the Books given to these Prophets were later corrupted or abrogated by their followers and hence Qur'an is the only heavenly book that is unchanged and fit to be followed.

Not to miss that Qur'an contains its own versions of Biblical/Torah stories, like Jesus was never crucified, Joseph's fate being judged by which side of his robe was torn, the raven sent by Allah teaching Cain how to bury his brother etc. So even while a Muslim may claim to believe in Jesus, he is believing in only his Islamic version of Jesus, not Jesus the Son of God as the Christians believe in.

 

[spnadmin]

It is called revisionism.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

BORN SIKH - life long LEARNING...no CHANGES to Creator given sroop..
BORN MUSLIM - One TRACK LESSON...Immediate CHANGES to Creator given Body via circumcision..later on hair removals, beard designs, colourings etc etc ( Mulsims must have a special design beard with yellow colour )

I think its OBVIOUS that ALL HUMANS are BORN SIKH...

All humans are born seeking, in that sense all are born sikhs. However, the definition of a Sikh, a member of the Sikh religion is:

Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

No one is born a Sikh in that sense. As far as I can tell, a newborn baby believes in only its mother's arms and her milk. (Happy baby!)

I'm not at all certain what Muslims mean when they say we are all naturally born Muslims. Clearly we are not born with knowledge of the Holy Qur'an and our first words are not quotations from the Profit (PBUH).

 

[riskygujjar]

allah has called all the prophets muslims and their followers also as muslim.

since they believed in one god and prophet of their time.

by following one sunnah of prophet mohammad a muslim gets sawab(puneh) equal to 70 martyrs.(who died in the way of allah)

i have read somewhere that some say that circumcision makes muslim a muslim.

nah its sunnah of all the prophets from abraham till prophet mohammad.

even jesus was circumcised.

yup its true.

well i dont believe in sikhism either.(no offence)
neither guru granth sahib(since its just contain banis of different people)
neither gurus .

but i will respect whatever good things they say.like believing in one god and to not to pray to idols and on humanitarian level whatever they say.

but i will never believe if someone says that guru nanak dev is god.

i have some questions relating to sikhism if u dontmind though this topic is on isLAM

 

[riskygujjar]

and..........

whoever believes in allah and his prophet is a muslim.