Islam What Do You Think Of Islam?

[Harkiran Kaur]

What Do I Think Of Islam? Okay you asked.. be prepared for negative answers!!! And yes I have read a lot of the Quran!

It's a religion made by a man FOR men, to enslave women, and sanction free range killing of anyone who doesn't decide to follow it.

Women in Islam are seen as nothing more than property (or children). They are seen as less capable, lacking wisdom (two women are required to equal the witness of one man for example - and even there is even a limit to that because you'd assume that 4 women could testify equalling two men... but that's not the case, one man always has to be a witness. Therefore, a Muslim man can essentially break into a female dorm, rape a girl and never be condemned for it because there were no male witnesses.) Women are held responsible for the reprehensible actions of men. If a man rapes a woman, she is the one punished for 'illicit sex' while he usually goes free. By Sharia she is punished for 'being out alone' without a male mahram. This means women have no real freedom in Islam. They are slaves to the men of Islamic society. Women Muslims are stripped of thier freedom, and restricted to a life akin to a prisoner... or at the very least, treated as a small child. In some cases, a woman's son actually has guardianship over her and not the other way round.

Muslim women / girls have been stoned to death or hanged for showing a tiny bit of hair (16 yr old girl in Iran), shot to death execution style in a ball field in front of thousands for the mere 'suspicion' of having done something wrong... for family honour. In Canada two teenage girls shot by their Father because he thought they were too 'westernized'. And these aren't fundamentalists or terrorist groups either!

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" (hmmm so beat your wives into submission... such a religion of peace!)

There you have it.... a self-proclaimed prophet (how convenient) Muhammad (who also claimed to be the last - how even more convenient) writing his misogynistic views of women, forever placing them into a life of Hell... and since he self-proclaimed himsef as the last, locked women into that Hell for good.

Oh and let's not forget that he married a 6 year old girl promissed to someone else, reportedly 'thighed' her until she was 9 and then consumated the marriage on her 9th birthday... while she was still a child!

Islam does not respect any other religion. In fact, Muslims are instructed to convert by force, and kill those who do not.

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Okay, so kill everyone who doesn't believe... and spare those who convert. Seriously... ANYONE converted by force on threat of being killed, will not be converting because they truly believe, so what's the point really??!!! Do Muslims just want the numbers or TRUE believers?)

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." (There you have it... Muslims MUST fight and kill - so how can they still call Islam a religion of peace?)

 

[riskygujjar]

first we donot convert people by force.

if someone is forcibly converted it is wrong according to islam.

if someone accepts islam,we donot call it conversion.we called it hidayat(allah has shown a person true path).

no muslim,nor any molwi can say that they can give hidayat to any person.

allah has power over hidayat.

yeah we can invite persons to islam by giving dawat(invitation).

 

[aristotle]

first we donot convert people by force.

if someone is forcibly converted it is wrong according to islam.

if someone accepts islam,we donot call it conversion.we called it hidayat(allah has shown a person true path).

no muslim,nor any molwi can say that they can give hidayat to any person.

allah has power over hidayat.

yeah we can invite persons to islam by giving dawat(invitation).

Well that's very covenient to say.
We all know what the reality actually is.

 

[riskygujjar]

i feel sorry for u bcz u are far far wrong about the islams stance on women.

 

[riskygujjar]

according to islam a person shouldnt be forcibly converted.

if someone doesnt listen its the persons mistake not of islams

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

first we donot convert people by force.

if someone is forcibly converted it is wrong according to islam.

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers."

"Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?"

From Hadiths:

"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

"Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

So, threat of being killed unless someone accepts Islam, is not seen as 'forced conversion' by Muslims??

 

[ExploringSikhi]

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers."

"Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?"

From Hadiths:

"I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

"Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

So, threat of being killed unless someone accepts Islam, is not seen as 'forced conversion' by Muslims??

This is essentially the same as plucking a single line from a shabad in Guru Granth Sahib and using it to justify a certain position.

Islam, like pretty much every religion in the world today, has been influenced by the circumstances and environment of its inception. You just need to look at Islam to see this - hajj, the kabaa, Ramadan etc were all Arab pagan rituals- ultimalty practiced by Muhammeds own pagan tribe before he created Islam.

Similarly, the verses of the Qur'an and the collection of Hadiths were not 'revealed' in a vacuum, there are unique historical events surrounding most of the revelations.

The verses you have added above, the ones about "siezing" and "fighting" and so forth were all revealed at times during which the early Muslims were at war with competing tribes, which is not surprising because Islam had a very rocky start, most of its early history includes conflict with the Jews, Christians and polytheists of the time.

Outside times of war, Muslims are not allowed to go around killing people who do not share their beliefs, if it does happen, it is against Islamic teachings, and even during war times, there are rules that Muslims have to abide by (i.e. no killing of women and children etc...).

In the same way you would not look at a single line in Guru Granth Sahib and ignore the rest of the shabad, it is also unreasonable to quote verses from the Qur'an or Hadiths without understanding the socio-political environment which led their existence.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

As I understand it, citing the Q'uran is not enough. There are conflicting, even contradicting statements. I have been told that, in that case, that the passage written the latest was to be considered authoritative.

For that reason, simply quoting Q'uran is not enough; you need also know where in the Q'uran that it is found.

 

[spnadmin]

As I understand it, citing the Q'uran is not enough. There are conflicting, even contradicting statements. I have been told that, in that case, that the passage written the latest was to be considered authoritative.

For that reason, simply quoting Q'uran is not enough; you need also know where in the Q'uran that it is found.

That is absolutely correct. When later passage contradicts an earlier passage, the later passage is taken as truth.

Which when you think about it is odd. The same "truth" could be contradicted more than once - 2 or 3 times perhaps. Then what is true?

These contradictions are called Naskh or abrogation.

 

[spnadmin]

and Exploring Sikhi ji

Where in the world is some branch or another of Islam NOT at war with the *****?

 

[ExploringSikhi]

and Exploring Sikhi ji

Where in the world is some branch or another of Islam NOT at war with the *****?

I've spent most of my life in Canada and the United States, I don't see the Muslims around me at war with their non-Muslim countrymen.

 

[spnadmin]

I've spent most of my life in Canada and the United States, I don't see the Muslims around me at war with their non-Muslim countrymen.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/boston-marathon-bombing/

And then there are the American Muslims who transport jihad to other countries.


Still looking for the middle ground that not only denounces but can manage an ending to worldwide Muslim extremism.


Note: A rejoinder with discourse on drone strikes and other US "military indignities" wouldn't be advisable either, because that just isn't a relevant rebuttal at this time. On this thread, we are discussing Islam and what it purports as truth. The continuous pattern of Islamic antagonisms date back in time before the US even existed. So "jihad" or oppression of women or forced conversions or oppression of non-Muslims or mistreatment of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim majority countries cannot find their cause in the US.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/boston-marathon-bombing/

And then there are the Americans who transport jihad to other countries.


Still looking for the middle ground that not only denounces but can manage and ending to jihad.


Note: A rejoinder with discourse on drone strikes and other US "military indignities" wouldn't be advisable either, because that just isn't a relevant rebuttal at this time. On this thread, we are discussing Islam and what it purports as truth. The continuous pattern of Islamic antagonisms date back in time before the US even existed. So "jihad" or oppression of women or forced conversions or oppression of non-Muslims or mistreatment of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim majority countries have nothing to do with the US.

Let's be honest here, if someone looks at Islam with a cup full of bias and prejudice, the cup will always spill.

Since when did Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev become the spokesmen for the estimated 6 million+ Muslims living in the United States? Who made them the posterboys of American Islam? Is it really a good to suggest that 6 million American Muslims condone the actions of 2 terorist brothers?

What we are witnessing in the Islamic world today is often times referred to as the "Islamic revival."

Here is a nice piece on it if you are interested: http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~bowles/TheoryIslamicRevival.pdf

Here is an excerpt:

"We demonstrate that raised aspirations, low social mobility, high income inequality and poverty are intimately related, not separate causes of a religious revival. As such, the origins of the Islamic revival are traced to a combination of two developments: (1) a growth reversal which raised aspirations for upward mobility and subsequently left aspirations unfulfilled among the educated middle class, (2) increasing income inequality and impoverishment of the lower-middle class. The sexual revolution in the West and rapid urbanization in Muslim societies intensified this process of religious revival."

Islam is not the only religion in history to have undergone a "revival" of sorts, there have been others, Islam today is very different than it was as little back as the first half of the 20th century, the violence and chaos engulfing the middle east today is more down to a failure of economic goals, not because the average Muslim is an animal who enjoys fighting unbelievers.​

 

[Luckysingh]

The thread title is ''What do you think of Islam?''

I can only think of newer definitions for ''Brainwash'' and ''Brainwashed''

 

[Ikk Khalsa]

and Exploring Sikhi ji

Where in the world is some branch or another of Islam NOT at war with the *****?

Where they are in majority or have some kind of power. Once they are in majority here, you will see different behaviour.

 

[spnadmin]

Where they are in majority or have some kind of power. Once they are in majority here, you will see different behaviour.

Bingo! When I get my energy back I will respond in some detail. The days are over for me when I make passionate speeches about the importance of taking every point of view within Islam into consideration and shaping all that into balanced understanding.

I have read evidence only of intellectuals telling me, based on colonial history, why I should understand, and implicitly excuse, outrages in Kenya, UK, the SWAT, Lahore, India, Egypt, Tunisia, Nigeria, the US, Tanzania, Somalia, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, and places I cannot even at this moment recall. No one of the extremist groups is a "spokesman" but they all are "speaking" in the name of Allah. Left to themselves they would probably kill one another so huge is the narcissism and ego of a religious fanatic.

 

[ExploringSikhi]

Bingo! When I get my energy back I will respond in some detail. The days are over for me when I make passionate speeches about the importance of taking every point of view within Islam into consideration and shaping all that into balanced understanding.

I have read evidence only of intellectuals telling me, based on colonial history, why I should understand, and implicitly excuse, outrages in Kenya, UK, the SWAT, Lahore, India, Egypt, Tunisia, Nigeria, the US, Tanzania, Somalia, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, and places I cannot even at this moment recall. No one of the extremist groups is a "spokesman" but they all are "speaking" in the name of Allah. Left to themselves they would probably kill one another so huge is the narcissism and ego of a religious fanatic.

Admin ji, there is no need to do so. I did not sign up on a Sikh forum to discuss Islam, I've already got accounts on Islamic forums for that purpose.
I have no intention of getting into a debate about the atrocities commited in the name of Allah by Muslims, my post in this thread was to point out that it is silly to post verses out of the Qur'an or Hadiths without considering the environmental developments which led to them being 'revealed'.
And it's not just a one-off thing either, I was quite astounded when I went through the thread and came across posts mentioning things like:

"Isn't that imposition on the whole world who worships differently than Islam? Don't they become kafirs and need to be killed by any means?"

and:

"Yes.
In Islam, rape, marriage and divorce of pre-pubescent girls is allowed. Koran 65.04."

Just to name two, and the sad thing is how many "appreciates" posts like this get, especially considering the error in information, not one person calls them out on it or makes a correction, not even the members who seem to be a bit more informed about Islam, which suggests either a very deep lack of Islamic knowledge on SPN or an undercurrent of suspicion and maybe even dislike towards all things Islamic, not by all members, but there are a few. I have seen evidence of both in my time here.

"Muslims" are not a homogenous group, a Pakistani has next to nothing in common with an Egyptian, barring their subscription to Islam. There is virtually nothing in Islam that is not contested and debated in one way or another. Take Sikhism as an example, a religion with less than 30 million adherents worldwide and there is still feverous dispute over issues such as eating meat, reincarnation, karma and Amrit Sanchar, all stuff that should be pretty basic, you'd expect most Sikhs to be able to come to an agreement on the proper way of doing things, but the more I interact with Sikhs, the more I find that individual Sikhs tend to do things their own way.

It is exactly the same with Islam. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, in no way does it make sense to paint them all with the same brush or to even suggest for a second that they all have the same spiritual and political goals. Anyone who has been exposed to a number of Muslims in his/her lifetime would know this. There are at least 50 times as many Muslims as Sikhs in the world, if Sikhs can't all be lumped together, I see no reason to change the rules when it comes to Muslims.

I got into Islam far before I got into Sikhi, I have been to Sunni Mosques, Shia Mosques and Ahmaddia Mosques, not once have I been made to feel unwelcomed, not once has a Muslim ever tried to attack me, I have only been treated with respect, despite my white skin and agnostic/atheistic beliefs, no Muslim has ever cared about any of it. I am glad I got to grow up in North America, I've known many Muslims throughout my life, practicing and non-practicing and they are some of the kindest people you'd ever meet. My father has spent time in the middle-east and has always praised the hospitality of the Arab people. I've been friends with Pakistanis, Saudis, Iranians and everything in between, none of them have ever acted like they are at war with me.

I do find the notion of looking into 21st century middle-eastern turmoils while disregarding "drone strikes" and other western forms of intervention a tad bit puzzling. That's like telling someone about the rise in Sikh militancy in the second half of the 20th century without making any mention of operation bluestar and other persecution of Sikhs at the hands of the Indian government. Nothing unites people like a common enemy, there are Muslims who are ticked off by American and European intervention in their day-to-day lives, all of us would be too if we had foreign governments dictating our lives. And because of this, there ARE Muslims who have decided to take matters into their own hands. I do not condone the actions of these people and the organizations to which they belong, but it really isn't difficult to understand what led to them engaging in acts of terrorism, western intervention cannot be ignored, this is not my opinion, there are more than enough voices within the United States of America who have and continue to echo my sentiments, it is there for everyone to see, after all, who do you think armed Al-Qaeda in the first place?

And if an Islamist or Islamist organization does kill innocent people, please, let us not try to imply that they are somehow the spokesmen for every Muslim in the world (or even that particular country), the 9/11 terrorists and the Boston bombing terrorists are no more reprsentative of Islam than the Air Indian flight 182 terrorists are of Sikhs. The Air India incident remains, to date, the single largest mass murder in Canadian history, I'm sure we're all well aware that this doesn't make every Sikh in Canada a killer/bomber.

The thread title is ''What do you think of Islam?''

I can only think of newer definitions for ''Brainwash'' and ''Brainwashed''

From my understanding of Sikhism, I'm sure Guru Nanak Dev Ji would disagree with you. If the followers of Islam are "brainwashed", does this also apply to Bhai Mardana? What does that then say about Guru Nanak, for him to have a brain dead man as his best friend and most trusted companion?

What then about Kabir, Farid and Bikhan, who have also contributed to the make up of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Were they brainwashed as well?
What about the Ahmaddias, who's very motto is "love for all, hate for none." Are they brainwashed?

Or the countless Muslims around the world who choose to break their fasts every year by feeding the homeless, are they too brain dead?
What ever happened to judging people on an individual basis, is that principle no longer a part of Sikhi?

My questions are rhetorical, please do not feel the need to reply. I have not read the entire Qur'an and am very far from being any type of authority on Islam. The other guy posting in this thread, from India, obviously knows very little about his own religion and seems to have a hard time communicating in English. Not really the best place to ask questions and gain knowledge on Islam if you ask me.

Most of these "violent", "evil" Qur'anic verses and Hadith quotes have been explained by Muslims all over the internet, they explanations are literally just a click away. The other stuff can be cleared up by actually asking Muslims and not coming to our own false conclusions.

That is all, I have nothing more to say.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

ExploringSikhi ji

It is your prerogative to "have nothing more to say." Yet, I do suspect that others may want to review a number of red herrings in your comments. If none do, then 'well and good.'

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

This afternoon, I was discussing women in Saudi Arabia driving with my Muslim caregiver. She explained to me that the women of Saudi Arabia have drivers to take them wherever they want to go, so they have no reason to drive themselves. In fact these women have everything.

"Everything except freedom," says I.

"Freedom is haram," was the response.

I was, for once, left speechless.

 

[Luckysingh]

If the extremely high numbers of muslims were NOT brainwashed, then we wouldn't have any where near the problems on this planet in the name of Islam.

I too, have nothing more to say !