Islam Women In Sikhism And Islam

[kds1980]

here you are again making baseless accusation against sikhism

Your religion was actually compiled hundreds of years after the death of Guru Nanak, none of these people claimed to be messengers of God.

if you read guru granth sahib then actually they said thta bani is from god

They do not know if he existed, and the evidence that he did points to him being a simple islamic man.

guru nanak firmly beleive in reincarnation then how could he be a muslim

Your religion even promotes beastiality!! a princess (Kaur) marrying a lion (singh)

only a person who have no brain can say this.

 

[JawDroppingPhilosopher]

JDP just cool down and drink a glass of water

No im fine, thanks for asking though:}{}{}:

you have a lot have of misunderstanding about me

Believe me, the feeling is mutual, i atleast admit my intentions and mind state, why dont you just admit you are not open minded enough to research what i say and actually consider it, i did the same for your religion and found nothing of value.

i don't follow sikhism strictly

Either follow it properly or dont follow it at all, i dont see the point in being sikh and cutting your hair, or being sikh and drinking at weddings, or being sikh and eating meat.

MAX you must agree, this is a common occurance in sikhism.

if you read guru granth sahib then actually they said thta bani is from god

Is it really, well Muhammed claimed to be a prophet, Guru Nanak never once claimed to be a prophet according to your texts which have taken 100's of years to compile lol.

guru nanak firmly beleive in reincarnation then how could he be a muslim

This is your belief, conservative christians believed that Jesus was white
African Christians believe he was black
Same thing, and anyway, how do you know exactly what went on in his mind if he even did exist?

Your statement is the same as mine in a way.

Meaning that i could just simply say...

"Well Guru Nanak carried a Quran so he was muslim."

Quote:
Your religion even promotes beastiality!! a princess (Kaur) marrying a lion (singh)

only a person who have no brain can say this.

Why is this so obsured? You are a "LION", you marry a princess, ancient symbolism dating back to Babylonian eras have used the naming of people after animals as it is common place, so too it is in sikhism..

It is beastiality symbolism in fact:}{}{}:

You just cannot accept this kind of scrutiny

the only thing is that i don't entirely blame america for the war.

I didnt say America was ENTIRELY to blame, there are other countries in Iraq, who else sent thousends of troops into Iraq? Who left Saddam in power? Who funded him? Who armed him? Who gave him military intelligence? Who did business with him?

America have engineered their own war, they used Saddam.

Because i dont see Jamaica's troops in Iraq. lol

the debate between you and me started when you said that sikhism is as bloody as islam

It is, for Gods sake you carry a blade around with you, pictures in Temples of so called wars show beheadings, bloody violent depictions of a history which cannot even be proved true.

Can you explain this Madness?

What is the symbology behind a beheading, i have to do some research on that, every religion always has a rule of "chopping ones head off in the name of god"... i think its symbolic.

called sikhs psychoes for beleiving in guru

The above quote is wrong, if i remember correctly you and DRKHALSA were the one telling me i am suffering from a mental illness...

DR.khalsa don't you think he is suffering from some kinds of mental illness

And lets not foget the famous mathmetician DRKHALSA who finished his debate on saying he believes in God lol:

NOW THIS IS WHAT I CAL PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS

Yes, freedom of thought is a mental illness in the eyes of the brainwashed mass.

So you are quoting me on things i have not even said, when infact you have called me these things on occasions, so stop the stupidity.

when i asked you to justify these claims you
just turned these questions

Yes, questions which you clearly cannot answer, points of debate which you clearly have no understanding of, i reply to you with such a long post, and you reply back with a few dozen words.

I asked you to answer some of my questions, can you not debate back anymore? Have you finally realised the weakness of your position KDS1980?

Have you finally realised that each point you make wether it be calling me Hiter to implementeing some sort of opinion or belief as a battle tactic which i myself understand better than you... that you will never win?

i called you adolf hitler because you are rigid in your anti religion theory

You fool, Hitler was not anti-religious, dont you know the difference between anti - semitic and anti - religious? You clearly dont.

Adolf Hitler was raised into a Roman Catholic family.

Hitler made the following speech:

"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of the German people."

I hope this puts an end to your stupid statements.

"Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism or neo-paganism and even ridiculed such beliefs in private."

Like i said, Hitler hated freedom of thought, so why would i be like him?

don't you have common sense.

Yes i do, maybe you should stop questioning my intelligence, because i believe i have proved it to be of higher standard than in comparison to yours.:}{}{}:

many people call their strict bosses as hitler

Yes it is also called an autocratic approach to management of people. When there is a balance, we can span from F.W. Taylors theory of control to other theories of a more social look on a workforce.

+ i doubt many business bosses have ever killed 6 million Jews loll.

And yes i have studied management in business.:}{}{}:

Oh and dont downplay the fact that you compared me to hitler by implying that "everyone says this", i know what you ment, and so did you, it took little thinking to disassemble your pathetic comparison which was a false, derogatory, highly insulting statement concearning me.

Well, i guess i have brought closure to this debate, unless KDS1980 there are any other points you would like me to cover?

 

[max314]

You try battling for 4 days against remarks like..

"3.5 billion people believe in sikhism so its true"

"If George Bush follows religion then why shouldnt we?"

I will guarantee you, your patientce will wear thin. I have always taken great care in written debates, words are weapons..

SWORD - S = WORD.

Which is why i usually go out and find the origins of words, such as British being jewish terminology, the flags are the same colour for gods sake.

The word Christ actually means "oil"

I've posted against opinions where I've been outnumbered, but the bottom line is:

1. - We come to these forums by choice, hence no matter how 'tough' it gets, it is still just a recreational activity. If it's too tough, then you just don't come.

2. - No-one has the right to impose their opinions on anyone else, nor should they attempt to enforce their opinion using insults. Even if the advocate of the opposite argument is hurling insults at you, just feel safe in the knowledge that you're at least doing your bit and that everyone can see that. Even the ones who don't say it.

3. - Relax. Take a chill pill. Your opinion isn't going anywhere. It's staying with you and won't run off just because someone says they hold a differing opinion.

So, it's all good fun. Let's try and keep it that way, shall we?

I admit there are gaps, i have no problem with that, it is a massive subject, no sikh can understand the guru granth sahib completely, yet i feel you have been completely biased in your "analysis" of me in that i have not heard a word of critisicm for KDS1980, its difficult for me, i express an opinion, then these religious people come at me in their packs, then they blame me for asking questions like... Was Guru Nanak even divine?

This is the nature of religious people, they expect you to just shut up and follow it while they benefit from power and money, no, this isnt gonna happen anymore this is the 21st Century MAX you seem to be dwelling on the past, you know yourself history will continue to repeat itself because WE CONTINUE TO REPEAT OURSELVES!!!

you yourself seem to have a modern understanding of religion with a slightly inquisitive nature.

I was like that, until i realised i have to completely break the realms of prison religions!

This is the problem, you say some of my points are evident, i doubt you have actually researched them yourself.

I admit, i have not the full capacity to handle religious data i dont think anyone actually has, i am not the light of the world, Like i quoted before... i can only show you the door your the one who has to walk through it.

Ooh, a fellow Matrix fan...I like that :}{}{}:

I too am of the opinion that Guru Nanak was not 'divine'. I believe that this, in many ways, contradicts the 'virtue by example' quality of the Ten Gurus. The sacrifices they made were real sacrifices, and not some airy-fairy piece of magic sent from the heavens. I feel that such a belief actually belittles the incredible lives of the Ten Gurus.

Whenever Guru Nanak talks of God, he is always in awe. Some people have even gone as far to say that the Guru and God were one. I think that Guru Nanak would be the first to slap those people round their heads at such a display of stupidity. You don't talk in awe of something that you are. You talk in awe of something you are observing. This is the way in which the Granth is written.

But whilst we do indeed hold these views, it is not our place to shove it down other peoples' throats. Yeah, let them try and do it to us if they want, but that don't make no hoo-haa of a difference. No-one's gonna change their standing, so you might as well hold it with some dignity, eh?

Thats nice to know, and exactly how does your comments on this subject prove that the reality of TOP sikh scholars are not corrupted and greedy?

It's not the scholars we are funding. We are funding the communal kitchen where everyone (and I mean literally everyone) can come and eat. We are funding the building where anyone who needs shelter can sleep. We are creating an environment where people of all different backgrounds can commune and socialise with families, etc and can pop into the library and read today's newspaper and chat for a bit. And when they're in the mood, they can make their way to the main prayer hall where some of the finest composed pieces of Indian classical music filled with inspirational poetry and insight and passion is being performed in a very appealing environment on floors laid with white fabrics and the Guru Granth Sahib laying at the far end underneath a beautifully-constructed quasi-shrine that - if nothing else - is at least uplifting and humbling all at the same time.

Because no matter what you can say, nothing can justify their means. You can only hope that it blows over and is never spoken of again.

(You should research on the Vaticans financial power).

You just admitted it yourself, religion takes advantage of the "sheep-like" nature of the mass, i couldnt have put it better!

Indeed. Religion has the ability to stop people thinking for themselves (and those that do are labelled käfirs by Muslims or manmats by Sikkhs...both basically mean "non-believer"), but I think that those who attempt to understand the words of the Granth properly and in their purity and with a sense of context will find that it actually contains some very deep moralistic insight.

The term manmat ("the mind's desire") - as I told you - has effectively come to mean the same thing to Sikkhs as the term käfir has to Muslims. The opposite of manmat is gurmat ("the Guru's desire").

Now, here's where it gets interesting...

So what actually is the Guru's desire when he looked out on a world of wife-burning, child-molesting, greed-infested, soul-destroyed, arrogant and amoral individuals (who, let's be honest, are of no shortage in today's world either:}{}{}?

Well, let's see. The Guru's desire is that we live with the following:

Contentment (santökh), charity (dhän), kindness (dhaya), positive attitude (chardih kalä) and humility (nimarta).

Kind of common sense, you might say...but in those days, this was a friggin' revelation. Pathetic, isn't it?

But hey, that's what it says. That's the Guru's Will. And there'snothing wrong with it! It's universal, it's everlasting.

And what is the manmat that people need to conquer? Why, it's the Five Thieves, of course:

Lust (khäm), rage (krödh), greed (löbh), attachment (möh), and pride (hankär).

The most hilarious thing, of course, is seeing that so many self-proclaimed Sikkhs are victim to these things, particularly rage, attachment and pride associated with their perspective on what their religion is. No matter how skewed their perspective or how misinformed their view, they will fight to the bitter end only to find...nothing. They were fighting for nothing. Air, perhaps. Religion is a human fabrication. Guru Nanak saw this. He even said that "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim", and this is way before the label "Sikkh" was even conceived. This is back when the Guru was trying to anti-institutionalise these fabrications that were dividing mankind.

What a backtrack we've gone and done, eh?

I don't mind Sikkhism to be an institution...but it has to be an anti-institutional institution. Like how intolerance can only be sorted by being intolerant of intolerance. Same idea. And this is what the Khalsa Panth was made for. Unfortunately...people kinda...forgot why it was made in the first place...

Im sorry to say but i do express my sources of information when people claim it is missleading, it is actually sikhs who i have come to gain this information off.

Open minded people who actually question their belief, i mean, if it is the true faith, then surely you have no chance of loosing your belief right?

It was actually on a sikh website were an interview of artists for sikh gurus was conducted in which i learned that the depiction of Guru Nanak was actually simply an artists impression...

Whilst I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with the "artist's impression" comment, I think I should tell you that there are a number of alternative perspectives and views even on one thing. A lot of Sikkhs I know who have sorta 'disowned' Sikkhism very often are themselves unaware of what the truth behind a particular matter is. Yes, there is crap that has made it into the insitution over the years - 'tis the way of human nature, I'm afraid - but there is something very noble and very much worthy of respect at the center of it.

Believe me, I've been questioning God's purpose since the age of three and a half (I was nicknamed "Little Buddha" growing up, which used to {censored} me off, but now I take it as a bit of a complement, if only because it meant that I didn't take things at face value), and I know what Sikkhism is and what it isn't.

I know that Sikkhism started as one man's philosophy to reform a defunct and demoralised society. I know that Sikkhism changed the face of sub-continental history and that without it Hinduism would be extinct, and that India would be yet another Islamic fascist state instead of the secular democracy that it is today. I know that Sikkhism attempted to unite all human beings as one, and even if the idea of God was created for this purpose alone, then it was a noble purpose.

Also, I know that many self-proclaimed 'Sikkhs' today are not only not practicing what Guru Nanak attempted to preach, but actually have their mindset in the totally wrong place. They're like Hindus or Muslims in that their attitudes are the same, even though their 'belief systems' use different terms.

So don't take Sikkhism's worth purely on the backs of its generally misinformed following. It ain't there fault. Well, actually it is, but most people don't like to question the third-hand information that their uncle told them about what Sikkhism is as opposed to wiping their mental state clean and starting from the top.

"If some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikkh religion will be the only means of guiding them."
Bertrand Russel​

Russel is referring to how the Sikkh code has the ability to reuinte and reconstute the world in a civil, democratic and secular way (remember, it was written to be such a text, and it was responsible for the cultural shift from fascism to secularism) should a third World War break out. But he was then asked that, if this religion (and I hate using that word "religion", believe me) was indeed so noble, then why did it not posess the ability to prevent a third World War from happening in the first place?

To this, he replied:

"Yes, it has the capability, but the Sikkhs have not brought out in the broad daylight, the splendid doctrines of this religion which has come into existence for the benefit of the entire mankind. This is their greatest sin and the Sikkhs cannot be freed of it."
Bertrand Russel​

And that's just it. Most people who are born into Sikkh heritage or who adopt it are simply adopting a socio-cultural hang-over that is in excess of three hundred years old. They're not looking at the principles of the religion, but are rather looking at the bells and whistles and clothes and other crap that make 'em feel like their "God's favourite"...which is just rubbish, isn't it?

The actual philosophy of the Granth will probably be rediscovered in generations to come when pre-ordained images of maya (this illusory construct that is the physical world...think Matrix ) are relinquished and the world is embraced in its entirety and humanity is respected in complete equality.

"Kabir, when you are in love with the One God, duality and alienation depart. You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald."

Guru Granth Sahib
Adi Granth, p. 1365​

P.S. - And the only reason I didn't reply to KDS1980 was because I actually had no intention of posting in this thread (I tend to overlook self-perpetuating arguments with more insults than actual discussion points), but those size 1,000,000 fonts you had going on were kind of hard to avoid :}{}{}: Don't take it personally, it's just that I have other things to do than read through the whole thread :wink:

Your religion was actually compiled hundreds of years after the death of Guru Nanak...

This just stuck out, mainly because it is actually rather wrong.

Yeah, the texts were compiled after the death of Guru Nanak, but those words were already in writing during Guru Nanak's time. All that had to be done was to compile them into a single, static volume. It's not as though anything was re-written or re-interpreted. It was written as it was written by Nanak's scribes. He would dictate, and they would write.

"Granth" actually means "compilation".

Do you know that the pictures of Guru Nanak are admitted by sikhs to be simply "artists impressions".

They do not know what he looks like.

They do not know if he existed, and the evidence that he did points to him being a simple islamic man.

He was born a Hindu, actually. And his birth was only 600 years ago. It's like saying "no-one knows what William the Conqueror looked like...so that must mean that the battle of Hastings in 1066 (way before Guru Nanak) never took place". See? Doesn't really work, does it?

Well, I'm tired now. Eyes closing, and I'm going for a run in the morning, so I'll leave it at that.

Be good :}{}{}:

 

[bopadum]

You people have too much time on your hands!

I got bored of reading most of this as where is the sikh philosophy? You want to slate sikhism go to a Islamic site! This is a forum for discusssing sikh philosphy for the better.

I was gonna respond to some of JDPs post, though he makes some good points (very badly) he is a bit childish, but then to make comments like...Sikhism supports beastiality!? I can not even be bothered.

And if he does not belive in religon - go to the Athiests site and join the rest of the goths and scrubbers.

Even Vijay Deep Singh doesn't bore me this much!

 

[hps62]

YOU JUST CALLED STEPHEN HAWKING .... A "CHAIR RIDDEN PERSON"...


Only a {censored} would call a Prof Stephen hawkin a wheel bound person

he on contrary is held in very high esteem in my home to the point of adoring him..

Though I would love to disprove his theory .

I lack the necessary skill and training in mathematics.

but next generation shall crack th code.

loads of love to prof Stephen

hps62
the Indian Khalsa :star:

bopadum


Dear Veerji

SSAKAL

Please remember we are sikhs.
Ever ready to learn all the time.
The sikh philosophy will not grow without discussion , debate and interacting with other great minds.
To lock out one self fro other fellow humans thought is to bury one self alive.


let us have the courage for the debate.

love
hps62 :star:

 

[JawDroppingPhilosopher]

Can i just say i COMPLETELY agree with the above post, nobody has the right to call such a great man as Stephen Hawking "Chair Ridden".

I still have not heard any appology from DRKHALSA for him making this statement.

His arrogance on the matter puts me off debating with him.

MAX, you made one long post, lol i agree with what your saying, sikhism sounds lovely in theory but in practice i dont believe it pulls any weight.

I was also filled with pleasure by reading Guru Nanaks view of a eutopia society, its very moral, fact of the matter is that in practice it has clearly not worked.

Neither has ANY OTHER RELIGION.

You want to slate sikhism go to a Islamic site

And if i want to slate Islam shall i come here? lol cause i am no one sided person, i am a free thinker.

Sorry im not apart of your "winning team" anymore.

Even Vijay Deep Singh doesn't bore me this much!

If you cannot enter this debate in a mind set that entails being open and bringing new fresh ideas to the desk then i suggest you leave.

Nobody has asked for your opinion on what we are talking about, and nobody is asking you to read it.

Thats your choice.

I highly blame people for being sheep-like and following the mass blindly, they have been given the power of thought, it is up to them if they choose not to utilise this amazing tool we are born with.

The sikh philosophy will not grow without discussion , debate and interacting with other great minds.

Thank you, this above statement is so true, you cannot stay in the prison realms of one single narrow minded belief, open your field of thought, it is infinite!

And if he does not belive in religon - go to the Athiests site and join the rest of the goths and scrubbers.

Yeh, just label me under some stereotype and the jobs done, get real, this aint the 70's.



A MESSAGE TO KDS1980.

I dont know where you have disappeared to, but you seem to have vanished from thin air, i would like to stand by my belief that sikhs and muslims, christians, jews are a one infinite energy, one people, we are one and always will be.


You think your petty differences such as some people being taller, some people being darker than others actually disturb my belief that we are a one infinite energy? No, for you see KDS1980 you believe that if a person is black, he is different, maybe in your mind in my mind i am one with humankind...

And i was right in saying your Guru's would agree with me..

Your own Gurus are against your belief@ KDS1980, you said, and i quote:

we are different.as long as we have different attituide ,thinking ,physique,talent,skills,nature etc the differences in society will remain you cannot change it.

And...

prove your point that sikhism and islam are one .there are truck loads of differences between islam and sikhism.as far as god is concerned

"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. Allah and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)

KDS1980, this clearly shows your position in this debate, i am not a hypocrite when i say i am open minded i mean it, i have studied your religion. KDS1980 you have not studied my beliefs at all!


You compare me to Hitler by saying Hitler was anti-religious? Again this is incorrect in that Hitler was not anti religious he was anti-semitic. Learn the difference KDS1980.

Then you come out with, "oh i mean it because you always think you are right", wrong again, maybe if you actually came out with a proper structured debates with good points i could praise you, dont blame me if you talk closed minded rubbish.

And kds1980, universal truth is not measured in mass appeal. Get that through to your head.

You should read more books instead of making your loose pointless judgements.

But i think the neutrality point was of issue here when Guru Nanak arrived back after 3 days, we all know 3 = Neutrality, its in all of the babaylonian religions, he came back and proclaimed nuetrality between the two religions of Islam and Hinduism we must realise the use of numerology in the vast areas of our society also.

 

[JawDroppingPhilosopher]

Hate and war are clearly caused by the division of man...

"Whom should I despise,
Since the One Lord made us all?"
Guru Nanak

Who can i go to war with if i am one with my fellow man.

Did Guru Nanak tell you to create a new religion? Did he call himself sikh?

Was he a free thinker?

If you claim he was no muslim nor hindu then i take it he had no religion...

I THINK THEREFORE I AM.

I AM THAT I AM

What exists physically exists first in thought and feeling. There is no other rule.

You are not fully conscious unless your are aware of the contents of your conscious mind.

God does not exist apart from or seperate from physical reality yet exists within it and as a part of it.

The ego can feel cut off, lonely and frightened if the conscious mind lets the ego run away with it. Being aware of this can defeat the existence of this problem.

Should we believe in Karma? i believe if karma is defined as one being harmed to the same extent that one harms another, then no, this kind of karma does not exist. However, since we are all one, doing harm to another is the same as doing harm to oneself. It is in our best interest to treat others as we would like to be treated.

God has created us to experience imperfection, if God is all good, and entirely free from evil, and free of suffering, then how can one experience these realities of thought without experiencing the opposite?

God wishes to experience EVERYTHING.

Thought is the power and reason of our existence.

I THINK THEREFORE I AM.

If you cannot think freely, then there is no point to your existence.

 

[max314]

"Ergo, cogito sum."
Descartes​

His 'Meditations' is a damn good read.

I think you've got the right idea, JDP. I've been saying from the beginning that the purpose of Guru Nanak was not originally to create a religion, but to actually destroy the illogical boundaries and useless practices that people used in order to justify their differences.

As you rightly observed, however, this utopic dream is difficult to accomplish, particularly when you're trying to turn the fascist world of Mughal India into a free and democratic forum of a secular belief system. Hence, the Khalsa Panth was formed. A 'necessary evil' you might say. As I exemplified earlier, the theory is the same as saying that 'one must fight intolerance by being intolerant of intolerance' is in a similar vein to this.

But that was three hundred years ago in a different time and a different place with a completely different socio-political bent on the world. We must see how the principles of the Guru Granth Sahib now apply to today's world instead of insisting upon being stuck in a three hundred year-old time warp for no particular reason other than "we believe". I mean, on that argument, one could "believe" in flying pigs. I certainly don't believe in flying pigs.

 

[kds1980]

JDP I know you are missing me don’t worry I am not going anywhere.unlike you I am not debating for my ego I am debating to enjoy if there is more interesting debate on another website then I will participate in that.i know you are a person who can debate
Whole day and night to prove your point.i will reply when I am in mood may be in hours
Maybe in days or may be in a month I am not here debating for my ego I am here to enjoy

Believe me, the feeling is mutual, i atleast admit my intentions and mind state, why dont you just admit you are not open minded enough to research what i say and actually consider it, i did the same for your religion and found nothing of value.

Its in your imagination that I am not open minded .we all have different minds what some people accept the other reject

Either follow it properly or dont follow it at all, i dont see the point in being sikh and cutting your hair, or being sikh and drinking at weddings, or being sikh and eating meat.
MAX you must agree, this is a common occurance in sikhism

You were the who told me not to preach then why are you preaching me how to follow Sikhism..btw do you know how to properly Sikhism..there are many sikh organizations who preach how to follow Sikhism properly AKJ,3h0,taksal ,nihung.what could be a proper sikh for nihungs may not be a proper sikh for AKJs.so which organization should I follow.and for your kind information there is no restriction on meat eating in Sikhism.this issue is bought by the leaders in the 20 th century especially in the western countries.many people in my family followed orthodox Sikhism and they too ate meat.you don’t have basic knowledge of Sikhism and you said that you studied Sikhism
Here MAX doe not support you views he too believed that Sikhs should not wear 5ks
Anymore as that was miltarisation which does not need anymore .i have seen him debating on various forums

s it really, well Muhammed claimed to be a prophet, Guru Nanak never once claimed to be a prophet according to your texts which have taken 100's of years to compile lol.

Sikhism does not believe that god is person that sends its messenger that have exclusive right to tell people what to do any person can reach god .
jYsI mY AwvY Ksm kI bwxI qYsVw krI igAwnu vy lwlo ]
jaisee mai aavai khasam kee baanee thaisarraa karee giaan vae laalo ||
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.

Your statement is the same as mine in a way.
Meaning that i could just simply say...
"Well Guru Nanak carried a Quran so he was muslim."

So carrying a quran but not following make’s a person muslim.what is this logic
If guru nanak was muslim then why he did not wrote shabad praising mohammed
And telling everybody to embrace islam.

It is, for Gods sake you carry a blade around with you, pictures in Temples of so called wars show beheadings, bloody violent depictions of a history which cannot even be proved true.
Can you explain this Madness?
What is the symbology behind a beheading, i have to do some research on that, every religion always has a rule of "chopping ones head off in the name of god"... i think its symbolic.

the purpose of kirpan is to defend yourself and the weak .it is not for beheding in the name of god.and the pictures in temples of beheading that is to show how Sikhs sacrificed their lives but did not gave up sikhi.

The above quote is wrong, if i remember correctly you and DRKHALSA were the one telling me i am suffering from a mental illness...

I still believe that you are suffereing from mental illness because the way you shouted and used abusive language anway read what you said

You say i talk crazy? You believe a man squeezed blood out of bread and milk out of another piece, you believe a man with ancient spiritual ghostly powers, who could walk on water, see into the future...
i believe in our physical universe, and you brand me a psycho? lol
i think its back to the drawing board for mr singh.

the meaning of the above quote was that drkhalsa believe in guru nanak that’s why he is crazy am I right?

Why is this so obsured? You are a "LION", you marry a princess, ancient symbolism dating back to Babylonian eras have used the naming of people after animals as it is common place, so too it is in sikhism..
It is beastiality symbolism in fact
You just cannot accept this kind of scrutiny

Lion is a symbol of bravery .earlier it was adopted by rajput kings.why can’t we say that brave person is marrying a princess.what one man accept the other reject.anyway the purpose of attaching singh and kaur was to abolish caste system.btw do you know that people actually like symbols and rituals.in Sikhism there are not many symbols and rituals that’s why in India Sikhs are adopting hindu symbols rituals.

I didnt say America was ENTIRELY to blame

i was just expressing my view.

Yes, questions which you clearly cannot answer, points of debate which you clearly have no understanding of, i reply to you with such a long post, and you reply back with a few dozen words.
I asked you to answer some of my questions, can you not debate back anymore? Have you finally realised the weakness of your position KDS1980?

It was you who was unable to defend your baseless allegation against Sikhism.THE BIGGEST PROBLEM I AM FACING WHILE DEBATING WITH YOU IS THAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY.YOU JUST CREATE
IMAGINERY QUESTIONS OUT OF MY POSTS AND THEN YOU REPLY THEM.
FIRST TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT OTHERS ARE TRYING TO SAY.THATS WHY I KEEP MY POSTS SHORT SO WE CAN DEBATE POINT TO POINT.LET ME GIVE YOU EXAMPLE OF YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING.YOU SAID THAT I SAID THAT SIKHISM IS RIGHT BECAUSE IT HAS 3.5MILLION/BILLION FOLLOWERS.THIS WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING BY YOU.WHEN YOU CALLED DR.KHALSA CRAZY FOR BELEIVING IN GURU NANAK THEN I SAID
THAT IF A PERSON IS CRAZY FOR BELEVING IN GURU NANAK THEN THERE ARE 3.5 BILLION CRAZIES FOR BELEIVING IN JESUS AND MOHAMMED AND TTHIS WORLD IS A PLACE OF CRAZIES /PSYCHOES.I NEVER SAID THAT SIKHISM IS RIGHT BECAUSE IT HAS 3.5BILLION/MILLION FOLLOWERS.
JUST TRY TO CATCH THE POINT.

You fool, Hitler was not anti-religious, dont you know the difference between anti - semitic and anti - religious? You clearly dont.

Again a misunderstanding.what I was trying to say that was very rigid in a theory
And you are to rigid in a theory.i never said that Hitler was anti religion..
You started comparing yourself to hitler to prove me wrong .you called me a sheep
Should I start comparing myself to sheep to prove you wrong .hey a sheep can’t do internet. That’s why you are wrong.

You think your petty differences such as some people being taller, some people being darker than others actually disturb my belief that we are a one infinite energy? No, for you see KDS1980 you believe that if a person is black, he is different, maybe in your mind in my mind i am one with humankind.

AGAIN A MISUNDERSTANDING READ WHAT I SAID

we are one as a soul or energy but in this physical world we are different.as long as we have different attituide ,thinking ,physique,talent,skills,nature etc the differences in society will remain you cannot change it.

First of all I never said that we are not same.we all have same soul or infinite energy.what I was trying to say that these so called petty differences make or break one’s life.these differences give birth to false pride and ego and that leads to division in the society.SO RELIGION IS NOT THE ONLY THING THAT DIVIDES HUMAN SOCIETY.IT IS FALSE PRIDE AND EGO THAT DIVIDES HUMAN SOCIETY.FALSE PRIDE AND EGO COULD BE OF ANYTHING.IT COULD BE OF HEIGHT,INTELLIGENCE ETC
IF YOU HATE RELIGION FOR CREATING DIVISION IN THE SOCIETY THEN YOU SHOULD ALSO HATE THESE SO CALLED PETTY DIFFERENCES.

"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. Allah and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)

I am very happy that you have quoted from sikh sources.read what I said to you in my first post

sikhism
fully accept this that god is infinite and god does not live in a house or temple so actually you are propagating theory of sikhism.

and what I said to you in second post when gave you shabad from guru granth sahib and you told me not to preach

what you are trying to say is already in guru granth sahib several times
read this shabad of guru arjan dev ji.

so you have accepted what you are saying is already in sikh scriptures.so my purpose of debate is successful.
Btw you also said that sikh scriptures are copy of bible or quran could you provide me a similar quote from them?

universal truth is not measured in mass appeal

Again a misunderstanding I never said that universal truth is measured in mass appeal

Did Guru Nanak tell you to create a new religion? Did he call himself sikh?
Was he a free thinker?

No guru nanak never said to create a new religion.the meaning of the sikh is student those who followed him were called Sikhs and he was a free thinker.
.religion has more to do political thing than spiritual
To survive in political world we need an identity..do you know that in India
There are many kabirpanthis, follwers of sai baba,etc who does not believe in hinduism but in census they all are termed as hindus,if all Sikhs will start saying that they belong to no religion then will be termed as hindu.and you would have been debating with us that your Hinduism promote caste system.TO SURVIVE IN THIS WORLD A POLITICAL IDENTITY IS NECESSARRY.
IN THE END OF THIS POST I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT PURPOSE MY DEBATE IS SUCCESSFUL YOU HAVE STOPPED USING ABUSIVE LANGUAGE
YOU ACCEPTED THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS ALREADY IN SIKH SCRIPTURES.NOW JUST READ MY POST UNDERSTAND MY POINTS AND THEN REPLY.

 

[hps62]

JawDroppingPhilosopher

Dear Brother

I must admire your bold and free thoughts to many questions on this site. It has got fresh breeze into this site. Just keep it up.

You have forced SPN philosphers to ponder and think like a true philosopher should do.

Now can I ask you a question with out hurting or offending you

You practise which religion ?
What religion were you born in.

This is to just out of curosity.

you may answer " ask no question and you shall be told no lie"

I shall respect your right to your privacy.

love
hps62 :star:

 

[kds1980]

JDP Some of your points from your earlier posts which I like to cover are the following

I AM NOT STOPPING YOU FROM WORSHIPPING SIKHISM, YOU ARE THE ONE STOPPING ME FROM HAVING FREEDOM OF THOUGHT..

.
Another case of your imaginery question I never stopped you from having a freedom of thought

Quote:
war is always caused by division but what divide humans is the false pride and ego anyway here your theory fails because all the hindu kings belongs to the same religion and same caste.
What? your telling me things that i have been talking about for the past 10 posts!!! now kds1980 is adopting my beliefs!! finally his mind is opening to the fact there could be more truth than what sikhism states lol I know war is caused by division you dumbass LOLL
And in actual fact you should listen to those many many sikhs who feel their religion has been taken over by high caste hindus (Brahmans), these people have also lost their belief because of your CONTINUAL SUPPORT OF A CASTE SYSTEM.

What said is that I agree with you that war is caused by division but this division is could be of anything.and when I said that I support caste system.oh god please understand my points your understanding power is really weak.if you want to meet people who support
Caste system then visit www.jattworld.com and ask them why they are proud of their caste

you say humankind is different? yes but our mind set should be that we are all one, a one race! one infinite energy.

I agree with it that our mindset should understand that we are all the same but please tell me how many successful people understand this they always boast of their qualities
And believe that they are successful because they are better than others

ONLY THEN CAN WE STOP FIGHTING WITH ONE ANOTHER, REMOVE THE METHODS OF CONTROL, HAVE A SOCIAL LOOK ON ECONOMICS.

As long as a people has false pride and ego they will never stop fighting with each other

The temple i used to attend in the UK , the smethwick temple, which was one of the first temples created in the UK, this temple is completely ridden with corruption, the main owner and financial representative of the temple actually laundered money into his businesses for years, he set up a network crime ring with other high members of the temple and stole millions from governemnt grants.
I figured this out when i walked though the horrid state of the temple, it is run down, and health and safety legislation was the only core element in provoking actual change within the temple.
They renevated it slightly, spending what was 10% of all of the money recieved from mainly financial Government grants based on geographical vicinity, and not forgetting the huge amounts of money demanded from sikh believers, even non believers, food, free human resources, that temple to me is a corrupt business, one which has been found out, and everybody in my family knows about its corruption.
These people are corrupt, ask yourself this. IF TOP SIKHS DONT FOLLOW YOUR RELIGION THEN WHY DO YOU?? Why do you fund these corrupt so called elite sikhs? Do you even know if they exist? LOL Why do you put pockets in corrupt sikhs which should be representing a history of sikhism in the UK?

For your above example I can say that when the government is corrupt then why should i
Pay taxes.a person can easily say that our leaders are corrupt and criminals then why should I be an honest citizen why should I earn honestly .if all people will start thinking like this then this world cannot exists.BTW do you know that all the major gurudwaras in India
Serve langar twice daily and 70% of beneficiaries are poor hindus.please tell which world religion or organization is doing this and you say that Sikhism divides humans

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Division of matter is bit apprant so if we say that faith or race didiveds human we can say that it is a bit apprant.

Das just wants to calirfy over here that Dharam or worthy to be incorporated thing as per schooopl of Sanatan Sikhs ie from das feels that Akal(eternal God of Sikhs) created with creation or to be truere Manifestations.

So das can say that at one state it is apprant that faith divides humans can and can casue a good lot of crultiy.

But that is by will of God.And same God by spirutality does unites us.We have to gain some states of enlighetenment to understand.Anyway for das there is one thing in jdp,himslef(Das) and kds.We are made up of one continoous thing called God by many.It is hypothtic but can be explnniaed empriacally say by medtation.

 

[kds1980]

according to sikhism and other indian religions we have to control
the 5 evils as long we have five evils the division in the society will remain no matter what we do.
The Five Evils
Kaam : refers to lust and illegitimate sex. It is one of the greatest evils that tempts people away from God. It makes an individual weak-willed and unreliable. Normal sexual relationhip as a house-holder is not restricted in any way in Sikhism. But sex outside marriage or sex against the will of the partner is taboo, as it can cause unlimited sorrows.
Krodh : is anger and needs to be controlled. A person overcome by 'krodh' loses his balance of mind and becomes incapable of thinking. According to Sikhism, 'krodh' takes a person away from God as hatred has no place in religious practise.
Lobh : means greed, a strong desire to possess what rightfully belongs to others. It makes an individual selfish and self-centred. It takes a person away from his religious and social duties. A person can become blind with greed if an effort to control the desire for unlimited possessions is not made.
Moh : refers to the strong attachment that an individual has to worldly possessions and relationships. It blurs the perspective of a human being and makes him narrow minded. It deviates a person from his moral duties and responsibilities and leads him towards a path of sin.
Ahankar : means false pride due to one's possessions, material wealth, intelligence or powers. It gives an individual a feeling that he is superior to others and therefore they are at a lower level than him. It leads to jealousy, feelings of enmity and restlessness amongst people. Sikhism requires that a person serves the society and community with humility. Hence, the practise of cleaning the footwear of visitors to a Gurudwara is followed by many devout Sikhs.

 

[KamaShakti]

Well People, I don't know how this topic got from women in sikhism and islam to a vitriolic rant. I have been reading it for some time and have wanted to say somethings but have been reluctant to get in the fray.

I want to say first off that Jaw Dropping Philosophy (in my humble opinion) has some interesting points. There is one thing that I think he has missed. I assume that he wishes to change peoples minds and is not just getting a buzz from insulting people and getting a reaction. Is that a fair assumption?

The thing that I think you have missed JDP, is that you will never change peoples minds by shouting at them. In fact you reduce the likelyhood of them coming round to your point of view because then they will feel they have proved you right when you called them a jerk/egotist/dumb/etc.

if you think that you cannot have a 'war for peace' then maybe you should live by that ethic and try and change peoples mind by calm reasoning. If someone does not see what you believe after you have tried reasoning then try and find out why they don't see your point but there is never an excuse to get angry. I'm sure that a lot of problems in the world have begun because two groups of people have allowed themselves to become polarised over an issue and have not longer been prepared to have an appreciation for the subtleties of the issue they have taken up.

I hope you have not felt this post was patronising in any way. It was merely my aim to diffuse what has become a stagnant, entrenched and needlessly vitriolic debate.

Thankyou

 

[JawDroppingPhilosopher]

."I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG"
is the main thing that divides humans

May i ask KDS1980, looking at the above quote from you, would the person who had a closed mind be more likely to speak these words?

Or someone with an open mind?

.

you are just like a mullah who beleive that his islamic theory is perfect and all other theories are wrong.people just like you create more division in society than others who want to impose their theory on others

Wrong again, i am open minded, i look at everyones beliefs and opinions, i let go of prison religions something which you cannot seem to grasp the conceptuality of. Religious preachers are the most closed minded people on earth, they see things from their single point of view.

I am happy being free, i am more in touch with a higher level of learning, i learn from sikhs, i learn from muslims and Hindu's and i can understand were Guru Nanak was coming from, something i believe MAX now realises.

Guru Nanak also had no religion, why do you?

He was open minded, why arnt you? MAX you said to me that i may become the one thing i despise the most, i am aware of this, yet i believe Sikhism itself has fallen into this trap, you have formed a religion just like Islam, you have become what you originally hated the idea of. Or what your Guru hated the idea of, but you dont wish to follow his wishes do you KDS1980?

We will discuss this last point later on in the text.


KDS1980, im actually glad to see your still here, i do at times feel i am battling a computer system with one piece of software when i talk to you.

Another case of your imaginery question I never stopped you from having a freedom of thought

As soon as you decided to post in a way which challenges your single minded theory against my freedom of thought outside the boundaries of prison-religion you have tried to stop me.

your understanding power is really weak.

Right, and maybe if you look at the presentation and structure of your own language you would realise that you do not blame a reader for not understanding if you cannot interpret your thoughts appropriately using english text.

You can carry on with your judgemental ways yet i myself and many other people who know me would highly disagree with your above statement.

when I said that I support caste system.oh god please understand my points your understanding power is really weak.if you want to meet people who support
Caste system then visit www.jattworld.com and ask them why they are proud of their caste

Unless they travel back in time and convince all of your Gurus to let the caste system remain ill never be interested in their excuse for following a caste system when told by their own Guru's not to.

JATTWORLD? Do you think your Gurus would be members of that if they were alive today?

Get the point.

Your own religion says you should not believe in the caste system, you still do, in that case you will be punished by your god. If you wanna be JATT then why do you spit on your entire belief by calling yourself a sikh?

Your not sikh, none of you sikh/jatt people are, your just lost individuals who are trying to change Nanaks views to suit your own personal needs. and create a religion which accepts your caste system.

Jatt sikhs are also more likely to eat meat, drink, take drugs etc. For if they are able to defy their Guru's wishes once they are more likely to sin again.

I agree with it that our mindset should understand that we are all the same but please tell me how many successful people understand this they always boast of their qualities

I thought you wanted to remove ego, start from yourself, i dont know why you concearn yourself with these kind of people.

So now you agree with what im saying, do you also agree that differences such as skin colour are petty? Because i bet you do now.

something which you previously disagreed with.

For your above example I can say that when the government is corrupt then why should i
Pay taxes.a person can easily say that our leaders are corrupt and criminals then why should I be an honest citizen why should I earn honestly

I dont know if your questions are rhetoric, but i think if your are genuinly a good person then you wont be living with the guilt of commiting bad deeds, you create your own hell.

If you think that our leaders are not corrupt then you are a complete idiot, everybody knows money and power corrupts.

I dont trust Tony Blair, ive lived under his government since he came to power and i can say nothing good about him, he has destroyed our National Health Service, our Fireservice and policing in this country is completely violent and racist toward asian youths.

if all people will start thinking like this then this world cannot exists.BTW do you know that all the major gurudwaras in India
Serve langar twice daily and 70% of beneficiaries are poor hindus.please tell which world religion or organization is doing this and you say that Sikhism divides humans

Lol, so your saying if all people just ignore these proven sikh scholars who have actually been in court to plead their "innocence". Then the world would be a better place?

We should just ignore it? NO, why should i let these so called devil sikh scholars get away with their lavish mansions and cars through exploitation of the "sheep-like" mentality of the people who give them money.

Get real.

There are thousends of charities out there, your Gudwaras arnt the light of the world you know, they aint an answer to poverty.

No way, infact religion ADDS to poverty. Why do you think the Vatican were so scared of Communism? Because under communism they would not be getting away with their massive exploitation of the poor.

This is why Christianity is so conservative.

You need to look at religion on a bigger scale and not just what food they give out at the langar hall, im talking about religion playing a part in politics, financially corrupt institutions which we know as religion.

Infact if they aint corrupting themselves and stealing they are usually funding their own agenda, their own religion, just like christians who set up missionaries to go to africa, Christian Aid is an example, these people are only concearned with converting Africans to Christianity.

Before Islam gets to them, lol do you see how stupid this is? Religion is not a way to give to the poor and is certainly not the answer to poverty, sure it provides shelter but so does the National Health Service. okay?

You want these poor hindus to have to rely on handouts for the rest of their lives? No forget that.

Thats only happening in your sikh demented world KDS1980.

We need change, economic change, forget your ideas KDS1980, they aint gonna work, abandon all hope if you wanna believe that the Gudwara will save the planet, wipe out poverty cause it aint happenin my poor friend.

People in the third world dont need hand outs

I am not debating for my ego

I dont know what your on about, but you do nothing BUT debate for your ego, what your doing is trying to keep your belief alive knowing that if you actually do open your mind and consider what i say it will show yourself as weak.

Look at all the times you have claimed you have won this debate...

you have lost the debate here

you have lost the debate here

And you say im debating for MY ego? im not here to win a debate im here to open your mind!!!

Your purpose is not to have fun but to egotistically prove that a belief system you have been brought up on, a belief system which has been through your family for generations even though it is ridden with hypocrisy, misteachings and corruption, that this particular belief system is the one true channel path to god, and is the light of the world.

Well i am proving to you it is not.

And so are your own people by their actions.

Thats a hard loss...

Id say you have the biggest ego to uphold:wink:

As long as a people has false pride and ego they will never stop fighting with each other

Yes false pride of your so called family tradition of religion, ego through the fact you dont want to be proved wrong because you are so proud of this 300 year old concept which has been taught in completely the wrong way and formed what it origionally opposed.

You have destroyed your own main Gurus Beliefs in non religion and freedom of thought..
KDS1980,

Nanak has same ideas as me, freedom from religion, freedom of thought.... would you compare him to Hitler?

THIS IS WHY YOU SAID NOW THAT YOU DID NOT COMPARE ME TO HITLER BECAUSE HE WAS ANTI-RELIGIOUS... (well, that and the fact i proved he was religious)

the purpose of kirpan is to defend yourself and the weak .it is not for beheding in the name of god.

I did not say that blade you carry on your side is for beheadings.

You asked me to explain how sikhism has a violent history, i said the most obvious things, a history of beheadings, murders and wars.

Whats wrong? You sikhs are usually proud of killing so many muslims... now your denying it?

i was just expressing my view.

No you were not expressing a view you were clearly stateing that i should blame every other country and stop picking on America for the Iraq war, you talk complete rubbish, you always change what you say.

many people in my family followed orthodox Sikhism and they too ate meat.you don’t have basic knowledge of Sikhism and you said that you studied Sikhism

Orthodox: adhering to what is commonly accepted

So you believe that sikhs should eat meat now? lol, this is not commonly accepted you idiot you cant even follow your religion properly, you not only follow caste, something which sikhism tries to remove but now you eat meat and think its right?

Do they serve meat at your Temple? Or at the Golden Temple?

Here MAX doe not support you views he too believed that Sikhs should not wear 5ks

And when did i say they should wear 5k's?... Is there a problem with your english or reading because i did not say a word regarding that sikhs shouldnt wear the 5k's.

I still believe that you are suffereing from mental illness because the way you shouted and used abusive language

You are a complete hypocrite on a level that is obsurd! You call me exactly the same things i call you!

Not even that, you change the reasons why you call me things over and over again, first you call me crazy for my beliefs, then you say its because i get angry...

Make your mind up or stop lieing.

the truth is that you think im crazy for having freedom of thought!! FOR HAVING NO PARTICULAR RELIGION!!!

And as soon as i hit you with the fact that Guru Nanak had the same freedom of thought and non religious nature you decided to change your story to....

"I called you crazy because of your abusive language"

You are a complete liar, you always change what you say.

SO DID YOU THINK GURU NANAK WAS CRAZY?

KDS1980, YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOUR OWN BELIEFS, I HATE TO SAY IT BUT YOU ARE CLEARLY MAKING A FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF.

KDS1980 says...

Lion is a symbol

DRKHALSA says..

SIKHISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SYMBOLS

LION AS A SYMBOL HAS NEVER BEEN USED IN SIKHISM

These two idiots are trying to contradict me, yet they are contradicting themselves, it is laughable!

Does it hurt you to know that Guru Nanak wouldnt even agree with this "sikh organisation" or "brotherhood", or new age hinduism you are following?

earlier it was adopted by rajput kings.

LOL so you admit it was used before sikhism, i know about this!! Rajput kings were also followers of Jainism, this religion has evolved from hinduism which has evolved from babylonian religions..

Thank you KDS1980 you have made the connection of how lion symbology got from Babylonian eras to sikhism:}{}{}:

Thanks mate!!!

Did Guru Nanak call himself a lion?:whisling:

Just a thought.

the meaning of the above quote was that drkhalsa believe in guru nanak that’s why he is crazy am I right?

No, the meaning was that if DRKHALSA can believe that a man can squeeze blood from a stone hen who is he to call me crazy for believeing in freedom of thought and our infinite universe?

I am in no position to call anyone crazy, the fact of the matter is, that you called me crazy for having my belief yet you believe in things that are beyond the parallels of physical belief itself..

In other words, i was branding DRKHALSA and you a hypocrite, not crazy.:}{}{}:

Then you went on to say "in that case the world is full of crazy people!"

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM I AM FACING WHILE DEBATING WITH YOU IS THAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY

Learn how to write proper english then.

YOU SAID THAT I SAID THAT SIKHISM IS RIGHT BECAUSE IT HAS 3.5MILLION/BILLION FOLLOWERS.THIS WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING BY YOU.

How can i have been misunderstood? I remember everything you say and you said the following in a previous post:

when you called drkhalsa a psycho for beleiving in guru nanak then i said if 3.5 BILLION BELEIVE in islam or christianity which promote much bigger superstition than sikhism.then why can't sikhs beleive in guru nanak.

So your saying that sikhs should believe in sikhism simply due to the fact that so many people believe in christianity, islam etc. That holds no weight and does not render probable that sikhism is true:}{}{}: These religions are just repeated stories of ancient babylonian myths, people have been caught up in the cycle that they are brought up to believe which results in a mass belief system which everyone feels they must follow. Because it runs in line with what is seen as "normal" in society...

Thus answering the reason why DRKHALSA called me crazy so many times, i simply do not follow his "norms" of society:}{}{}:

I guess those who dont follow the sheep are considered crazy, well ill stand by my freedom of thought and if DR KHALSA or KDS1980 doesnt like it then im no longer concearned.

I follow open thought.

You still implyd the same thing, that if these religions are not true then all of these people must be psychos, i would not go as far as to call them psycho's as an answer to your question yet i would not call these people open minded or inquisitive about their belief.:}{}{}:

You can twist meanings round from your words all you like, the fact remains the same, i know exactly what you were implying when you first spoke of a mass of people believing in a certain religion, anyone would, im not stupid, dont insult my intelligence if you have yet to aquire your own:}{}{}:

Again your original meaning was that how can all these people be crazy? I simply said they are not crazy yet we cannot measure truth in mass appeal.

Again you have changed the meaning of your words to prolong the debate.

Yes and also told me to get off this planet because i did not follow these brainwashed mass such as christians and muslims and sikhs.

So free thinkers should get off this planet?

Would you have told Guru Nanak to get off this planet?

That does not make sense.

And you are to rigid in a theory

HOW AM I RIGID IN THEORY? i ALWAYS SAY I AM OPEN MINDED!

i LOOK AT BOTH SIDES

i HAVE STUDIED YOUR RELIGION, IF I ARGUE WITH MUSLIM I STUDY THEIRS!!

you have not once studied my beliefs once!!

AND YOU CALL ME "RIGID IN THEORY"???

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT IT MEANS?

YOU SAID?........

AND I QUOTE

i called you adolf hitler because you are rigid in your anti religion theory

So you call me Hitler because he was anti-religious? (thats your comparritive point, that Hitler was anti-religious LIKE me, you cant change that now, its too late)...

and now you say...

i never said that Hitler was anti religion

but the reason of your comparison clearly states that you compared me TO THAT INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE I WAS ANTI-RELIGIOUS.... THEREFORE YOU BELIEVE HITLER WAS ANTI-RELIGIOUS OR ELSE THERE WOULD BE NO COMPARISON...

SO NOW YOUR SAYING HITLER WAS NOT ANTI RELIGIOUS...

SO NOW IM NOT LIKE HIM IN THE WAY YOU FIRST THOUGHT?

This is clear proof that KDS1980 is changing everything he says in his debates, the sign of a loser if you ask me.

I think KDS1980 you should think before you speak, because i do not forget what you say.

You cannot twist words and meanings after you have spoken them... Everyone will notice.

Here MAX doe not support you views

I dont care if MAX does not support my views, atleast he respects the freedom of thought which he himself has unlike you.

And i say no to religion, so did Guru Nanak, i say no to caste, so did your other gurus, i say yes to freedom of thought and the POWER OF INFINITE THOUGHT. Guru Nanak was also a free thinker.

KDS1980, dont you wish to compare Guru Nanak to Hitler being as he is anti-religious?

Do you understand the stupidity of yourself now?

i have seen him debating on various forums

MAX i think you have a stalker:{-

please tell me how many successful people understand this they always boast of their qualities
And believe that they are successful because they are better than others

You will find these people in capitalistic societies, we must be positive for humankind not for ourselves. Not for our bank accounts. These people you see with flash, money etc, they dont last, they will usually end up in a very sorry state addicted to drugs because they became trapped in the spiral of desire.

lol i went a bit off there but these people dont bother me..

If you drove to an Africans house with a bentley or a Mercedes who has never seen a car in his life, this African would see no value in this car would he?

Egotism is the fuel of capitalistic societies. Albert Einstein.

Thats a good read...

Why socialism by Albert Einstein.

SO RELIGION IS NOT THE ONLY THING THAT DIVIDES HUMAN SOCIETY

I KNOW ITS NOT THE ONLY THING WHICH DIVIDES SOCIETY!

I DIDNT SAY RELIGION WAS THE ONLY THING!


But the differences you speak of are completely petty, if some girl is upset because she is ugly then she has failed to see that beauty that lies within.

And if one cannot join the army because of ones height then tough luck, be thankful and show gratitude for what you have!

You can breathe!

You have freedom of thought!!

You have food, water, shelter!

These things people take for granted and delve into thoughts of ... why arnt i tall enough? why am i ugly?

Why do people find so much attatchment to beauty? why do these people care about petty things like the height of one?

BE THANKFUL FOR WHAT YOU HAVE!!!

IF YOU HATE RELIGION FOR CREATING DIVISION IN THE SOCIETY THEN YOU SHOULD ALSO HATE THESE SO CALLED PETTY DIFFERENCES.

No i dont "hate" them, I SEE PAST THEM! JUST LIKE I "SEE PAST" RELIGION! You may visualise these differences but that is the kind of mindset you have! You see value in being beautiful, you see value in having money, I DONT

I HAVE THOUGHT, THE ABILITY TO EXPRESS THOUGHT AND FREEDOM OF THIS IS ENOUGH FOR ME

I SHOW MUCH GRATITUDE TOWARD GOD FOR GIVING ME THIS INFINITE POWER!

I am very happy that you have quoted from sikh sources.read what I said to you in my first post

I bet you are happy, how about you researching my beliefs?

I have read your first post, i said to you from the start that we are all one people!

We are one, islam and sikhism christians and hindus are one, it is religion which keeps us divided.

I said from the start that we are divided from mere words

And your own Gurus agree with me..

I have clearly proved you wrong with your own theorem, i guess this speaks for my higher position in this debate.

it is not for beheding in the name of god.and the pictures in temples of beheading that is to show how Sikhs sacrificed their lives but did not gave up sikhi.

I always have believed that history is written in the eyes of the winner.

so you have accepted what you are saying is already in sikh scriptures.so my purpose of debate is successful.

Your purpose of debate is not successful, in that you cannot even follow your own scriptures lol.

You follow caste.

You believe in eating meat.

You believe we are not one as a people.

I think you should re-read your own scriptures, i have already said that your religion may sound "utopic" in theory but thats all it is, in practice it does not work.

And this is my point, you dont practice sikhism correctly, Guru Nanak did not tell you to create a religion

He did not tell you to build a home for God out of gold.

He did not tell you to follow caste

He did not tell you to eat meat

He did not tell you to be closed minded

SO please...

would you like to explain how you have been successful? lol.

Even so, if i am doing right in the eyes of Guru Nanak by following God and no religion, then what is your problem?

Your original point was that sikhs and muslims are not one people.

Yet i suggest you find Guru Nanak and ask him the same because he will disagree with you.

So no... you have completely lost this debate and gone onto several political areas which you yourself cannot understand.

You have completely taken Guru Nanaks beliefs and guidance and misslead them, the youth will be taught your ignorance and nothing will change, this is the nature of being closed minded.

pictures in temples of beheading that is to show how Sikhs sacrificed their lives but did not gave up sikhi.

The pictures you speak of are also artists impressions, they did not know what happend out there, how sikhs acted against the mughals.

They dont know if any of these mthological tales are even true, there is no evidence of any of these people existing.

The scripts could have been based upon hindu/islamic thologians who have been completely taken out of context and formed a prison religion filled with corruption.

Infact they dont even know how Guru Nanak looked like, how could they? Did his mother order an artist over to paint him?

No these are artists impressions, you bow down to artists work in the Temple... Thats really the proper teachings of sikhism isnt it? lol

Now you are really getting close to Guru Nanak or God...

Some sikhs actually believe Guru Nanak was jesus

Some believe he was a prophet

Some dont.

Some believe he was God...

Its all the same thing, you cannot free your mind if you are in this state.

Kaam : refers to lust and illegitimate sex. It is one of the greatest evils that tempts people away from God

If you want to remove desire then you have to also remove the desire of wanting to remove desire. This is what monotheistic religions such as sikhism cannot and will never achieve.

It has been proved for 300 years your religion has not worked.

It has been proven for thousends of years that religion itself will not work.

Krodh : is anger and needs to be controlled. A person overcome by 'krodh' loses his balance of mind and becomes incapable of thinking.

You sound like some kind of buddah, this may have sounded fantastic 300 years ago but it seems like common sense today.

Thanks for this "revelation" are you meditating?

Because i suggest you wake up from your half-sleeping state of brain and look at the world around you.

Btw you also said that sikh scriptures are copy of bible or quran could you provide me a similar quote from them?

Could you firstly provide me a quote in which i specificly said that the sikh scriptures are a copy of the bible or the quran?

Because i think your making things up again.

I meant we are one as a people, a conceptuality which you have in some sense finally realised so i have been completely successful in this debate.

I have also proved you wrong when you compared me to Hitler, you compared me on a basis that i was anti-religious, yet i have used probabe facts (something which you have clearly not used) to once again rise above you in this debate.

You also claimed that being anti-religious was bad and i should be locked up in a mental hospital for this, yet your own Guru Nanak had no religion and preached freedom from religion, again an area of this debate in which i have suceeded in clearly.

You call yourself a learner, (sikh) yet how on earth can you learn if you have such a closed mind? Do you really think that the sikh scriptures are the end to learning for mankind? I doubt it, i suggest you open your mind, and if you really call yourself a sikh, then you open your mind and become more like Nanak and appreciate the freedom of thought which God has blessed us with.

I do not feel the need to continue this debate, i have clearly suceeded in the arguements you have placed, you compared me to Hitler, your educational facts of the cause of the Middle Eastern crisis were completely inaccurate, you contradict your own faith, your true creator of sikhism did not wish for you to create a new religion. I also felt the need to correct you several times on subjects which had nothing to do with this debate.

The thing that I think you have missed JDP, is that you will never change peoples minds by shouting at them. In fact you reduce the likelyhood of them coming round to your point of view because then they will feel they have proved you right when you called them a jerk/egotist/dumb/etc.

I can understand why i should not shout at people, you should not patronize me aswel, i know about debates and if i do not talk like one of your "enlightened" sikh friends then i dont talk with the arrogance of the seeming light you people think you hold.

Your one sided opinion really sickens me, the fact that KDS1980, has compared me to hitler.

Has called me a psycho and someone in need of mental attention.

The fact that DRKHALSA said i should be locked up in a mental institution and controlled by electroc shocks

The fact that I was continually insulted called a "stupid idiot", a {censored} etc...

And as soon as i say one thing you brand me the one in the wrong?

This goes to show of the utter incomptence of the people messaging on these forums, it is clearly one sided, there is no effort to actually consider what i am saying or be open minded as sikhs are supposed to be.

if you think that you cannot have a 'war for peace' then maybe you should live by that ethic and try and change peoples mind by calm reasoning.

You cannot fight for peace you have to peace for peace, anyone with 2 brain cells knows that, if you want to carry on repeating the values portrayed in the past then go ahead.

Ive had enough of this, you people are completely wrong in that your own theorem contradicts what you follow, Guru Nanak clearly was non religious, he did not tell you to create a religion

To build a house for god out of gold.

What they have done is completely contradictory to what your original belief is lol.

 

[KamaShakti]

JDP

let me just say that I think the ideas you have been talking about are very exciting and original. You have obviously thought a lot about the whole theme of religion and in my opinion that time has not been in vain.

If people insult you why can't you just rise above it?

 

[kds1980]

Unless they travel back in time and convince all of your Gurus to let the caste system remain ill never be interested in their excuse for following a caste system when told by their own Guru's not to.
JATTWORLD? Do you think your Gurus would be members of that if they were alive today?
Get the point.
Your own religion says you should not believe in the caste system, you still do, in that case you will be punished by your god. If you wanna be JATT then why do you spit on your entire belief by calling yourself a sikh?
Your not sikh, none of you sikh/jatt people are, your just lost individuals who are trying to change Nanaks views to suit your own personal needs. and create a religion which accepts your caste system.
Jatt sikhs are also more likely to eat meat, drink, take drugs etc. For if they are able to defy their Guru's wishes once they are more likely to sin again.

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT SHOULD I DO SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND MY POSTS AND MY POINT .I AM NOT A JATT SIKH.I DON’T SUPPORT CASTE SYSTEM.I WAS GIVING YOU ADDRESS OF A SITE WHERE YOU CAN SEE
HOW SOME JATT SIKHS ARE PROUD OF THEIR CASTE AND HOEW THEY HUMILATE OTHER SIKHS.

If people insult you why can't you just rise above it?

nobody insulted him first i advise you to read his posts on
page3,4 where he used bad words against dr.khalsa so much

 

[KamaShakti]

kds.

It doesn't matter who insulted who first. When we are insulted it makes us feel bad in our gut. I'm sure we are all the same. We feel like reacting to that insult. We want to make that person feel the way they made us feel. I'm no different. But we have the option not to react to that insult if we want. It takes strength and composure. Sometimes that bad feeling is obliterated in a more creative, thoughtful response.

 

[JawDroppingPhilosopher]

nobody insulted him first i advise you to read his posts on
page3,4 where he used bad words against dr.khalsa so much

To begin with, i expressed my freedom of thought, my freedom to live and breathe through opinion and endless thought!

I was then confronted by closed minded people defending their singular belief system.

I spoke in a civil manner, but these hypocrites who claim to be all perfect such as KDS1980 started to insult my views... so i will speak in a language that they will understand.

I was then castigated by these closed minded people with their hypocrisy, for the crime of insulting when they themselves gave birth to this atmosphere of debate, if they wish to look down on people who insult during a debate then i highly suggest they do not do it themselves!

kds.

It doesn't matter who insulted who first. When we are insulted it makes us feel bad in our gut. I'm sure we are all the same. We feel like reacting to that insult. We want to make that person feel the way they made us feel. I'm no different. But we have the option not to react to that insult if we want. It takes strength and composure. Sometimes that bad feeling is obliterated in a more creative, thoughtful response.

I started this debate in civil manner, i was hit with a number of insulting remarks.

Insulting remarks which i have successfully analysed and concluded to be nothing but pointless derogotory, statements which hold no weight in this debate.

I WAS GIVING YOU ADDRESS OF A SITE WHERE YOU CAN SEE
HOW SOME JATT SIKHS ARE PROUD OF THEIR CASTE AND HOEW THEY HUMILATE OTHER SIKHS.

And why do you feel the need to tell me this? Do you not think i know of the complete hypocrisy of your religion.

Guru Nanak was a free thinker, you castigate me for my freedom of thought by calling me crazy, why do you not call your own Guru crazy?

Why do you not call him hitler?

It is due to respect!!!

You were brought up to respect your father, you would not call him crazy, just like you would not cal your Guru crazy, just like you would never QUESTION your belief because YOU WERE BROUGHT UP WITH A CLOSED MIND THAT TAUGHT YOU NOT TO!

GURU NANAK WAS A FREE THINKER WHO WAS FREE FROM THE REALMS OF PRISON RELIGION!

YOUR OWN THEORY CONTRADICTS YOUR POINT!

The original point of this debate was of mine that Muslims and Hindus Sikhs whoever you may be we are all one! as a whole!

KDS1980 you disagreed with this, you disagreed with my unity, you believe that we need to be divided to have complete identity...

FROM WHO???

OURSELVES??

SHOULD I CUT MY HEART FROM MY BODY TO GIVE IT IDENTITY?

 

[BSD416]

Wow, its amazing how far off topic this thread has gone so plz allow me to bring it back to the issue of the role of women in sikhism and Islam. Firstly, everything I say here is based on my knowledge of what the role of women is SUPPOSED to be based on religious texts and actions of the gurus/prophet. We have to keep in mind that not everyone puts these teachings into practice and that the the role of women is defined as much by culture and politics as it is by releigious beliefs (ie. look at the difference in the way women were treated in Afghanistan under the Taliban vs. how they are treated in Canada or the states). Also the way women (and any memeber of society including the elderly, disabled etc) are treated varies from family to family even in the same goegraphic area.

In Sikhism women are equals. So any woman who is born a Sikh or converts to Sikhism should expect to be treated as an equal. If anyone attempts to treat a woman as an inferior person then she should know that there is abolutely no religious justification for doing so (whether or not there is a political and/or cultural justification depends on where you live).

Islam is much more tricky because there seem to be many different ways to interpret the Koran and some (ie. the Taliban) have skewed its teachings to be in accordance with their own personal agendas. From what I understand of the Koran, Islam also promotes equality between men and women although their are some beliefs that seem counter-intuitive to this teaching (such as the ability for a man to have multiple wives but not for a woman to have multiple husbands).

So for both Sikhism and Islam equality is emphasized. If a woman who converts to either finds herself being mistreated on the basis of sex she should realise that this is not mandated by the religion, it is primarliy a problem with the practices of the group of Sikhs or Mulsims she has been associating with.

To say taht Islam is "worst" is innaccurate; there are some Muslims who mistreat womwn just as their are some Sikhs who mistreat women.