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Islam Women in Sikhism and Islam

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by BoleSoNihaalSSA, Jun 14, 2006.

  1. BoleSoNihaalSSA

    BoleSoNihaalSSA
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    I was wondering about how good or bad is the status of women in Sikhism is as compared to Islam.
     
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  3. hps62

    hps62
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    Now this is a touchy topic.
    truth would infuriate my muslims brothers whom I regard as a member of our human family.

    But I guess I must give my impression.

    On the surface of it

    Sikh womans are like any other female species of any other religion (a way of life ).

    muslim womans seem more to be like a incubator .

    To be kept illiteriate so as the only job she knows is to have children so as one day the dream of a {censored word, do not repeat.} free world world can be fullfilled.

    I do not know about you all guys but I am going to float around as a SIkh

    with love to all

    hps62
     
  4. bopadum

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    From a person who takes a passing interest in what Islam gets up to... I don't understand why any woman would want to convert to this religon. They are not allowed to translate the koran, go to the mosque with men, the whole covering up issue (burqa), seen as unclean when on there period, they are allowed to be beaten and have to share there husband.

    At first I thought this was all just Sikh Propoganda so I watch the islamic channels every so often and have seen documentaries by professors of Islam who all confirm this!

    Where as far as I am aware, sikh women are not subjected to the above...

    But some how Islam seems to carry on converting girls all over the world. Probably due to its very nature and the way it morphs, bends and twists to fit peoples ideology...
     
  5. BoleSoNihaalSSA

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    i read on one of the islamic sites that quoran did promote education for women. i wd send u the link. There are many other good things too.
     
  6. jonnyBravoWarm

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    Since the topic is very real and touchy, i will not give any personal views. In the end, whatever we say or write will not count, what counts is the quality of life the girl has and the quality of life she wants, her beliefs and her choices, her satisfaction level and finally her own decisions.
    The facts are...
    1. Sikh women have faught wars along with sikh men.
    2. Sikh women can take hukamnama, do kirtan [ http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5235/1266/1600/mela11.jpg], do sewa, manage the gurudwara comittees, can take amrit, can raise her voice if she does not approve of anyting, etc etc....
    3. They are equal and respected like men.
    4. They have Kaurs attached to their names which means princess, they can can beautify their swaroop by wearing a dastaar like men. [ i got an image off a blog of a sikh girl http://photos1.blogger.com/img/248/6669/640/profile.jpg ]
    5. Nobody says anyting to them if they go to gurudwara or anywhere in jeans, tops or any western dress [ apart from parents i believe ].

    You can figure the rest yourself....
     
  7. bopadum

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  8. anders

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    While there are some good things for women in the Qur'an, for example some rules on inheritance for women and her personal right to her dowry that the "Western" world should adopt, my view of Sikhism is that it is unsurpassed in giving women (at least ;-) ) equal rights with men.

    Even in secular progressive etc. Sweden, still in my early lifetime women were supposed to attend to a church "purification" ceremony after childbirth. The father was "of course" clean all the way...
     
  9. max314

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    I don't know about comparisons, but here is what Guru Nanak Dev Ji said of women. Let's remember that this is a time when women were considered little more than property to be owned. They were considered a subordinate entity, worthy after the death of their husband only to be burned on their partner's funeral pire (an act referred to as sati). Guru Nanak was appalled by this societal behaviour, and rightly spoke out against it. In many respects, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the first women's rights campaigner in the sub-continent (and perhaps even the world), which is kinda neat. He was very close to his sister, who believed in his uniqueness and specialness when his own father did not. Many consider her to be Guru Nanak's first true disciple (i.e. the first sikkh).

    "Of woman are we born, of woman conceived, to woman engaged, to woman married.
    Woman we befriend, by woman is the civilisation continued.
    When woman dies, woman is sought for.
    It is by woman that order is maintained.
    Then why call her evil from whom great men are born?
    From woman is woman born, and without woman none would exist.
    The eternal Lord is the only one - O Nanak - who depends not on woman."


    Guru Granth Sahib
    Asa, p.473

    So, from a piece of property, Guru Nanak says that women are actually the very glue of society and - as such - deserving infinitely more respect than what they were granted at the time.
     
  10. jasi

    jasi
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    sat Sri Akal ji.

    Wonderfull wonderfull what you have wriitten. In Sikhism all are equal and capable of doing every thing. Mother's
    place is almost recogoniezd as God's place. If one does not respect mother there is no reason to go to temple or gurudwars.period.l

    That is why when we closly look at the sikhism and its pricipal there is nothing left for comparisn.Just NAM and be a good person with lots of empathy.


    jaspi:wah:




     
  11. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Friend


    Here is the site which tries to compare status of women in Islam and Sikhism

    Note: Personally I dont believe in faith bashing , just to inform that there could some sort of things that might appear like bashing Islam . But still it has consice information that might help to answer query


    http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/




    Jatinder Singh
     
  12. JawDroppingPhilosopher

    JawDroppingPhilosopher
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    What women should remember is that they will only be free when they let go of these prison religions, Islam in itself is a patriachal religion, when infact if research is done we find that the moon symbol is used again and again in Islam.

    Their moon god allah is a clear representation of a womans womb, in simple terms... the moon is a representation of the "woman", in other words the religion which is completely patriachal typically down toward the masculine teachings of islam and the supression of women, when infact their religion is based on a worship of women which also is completely obsurd.

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.

    It is these very religions that are holding us from the realisation that we are actually ONE. God is infinite energy which fills the entire universe and all other outer parallel universes, we are made from one complete substance which i would define as either energy or love. Do you really think these religions are acurate? You dont eat meat on tuesdays? Yet you base this belief on a day created by the Roman Church...

    The stacks and piles of information against religion is endless, we cannot unite divided, monotheistic religions teach us to be divided by caste, class and belief.

    Monotheism teaches us that God is a king in a Kingdom, that you are rewarded for your service to him or her (now wouldnt you have all power if you were named a king of a country?) lolz.

    This is why the Catholic church was so scared of Communism, the vatican is one of the most richest organisations in the world, THE SUN SYMBOLOGY IS never ending

    it is on the back of your £20, £10, £5 notes, it is on major bank buildings, it is on churches, look into obelisks (steeples) which represent the {censored word, do not repeat.} of osiris.

    The fact that jesus the SUN OF GOD is actually a representation of the SUN, the zodiac symbol with the SUN (SON) ON THE CROSS, the fact is that people MUST RESEARCH INTO THESE RELIGIONS, IT IS IMPERITIVE.


    To women who wish to convert to either sikhism or islam, before you do please research these religions in depth, further than simply talking to the scholars of these WAR ORGANISATIONS and having your decision based on what appeals to you or what impresses you, i am a former sikh yet i see the sikhs and muslims as two races who are really ONE divided by WORDS, these people are in the same boat and its sinking.

    Do not end up in that mess for GOD IS INFINITE God does not live in a house! or a temple! God lives in you.



    If people would like referrence links to research of what i have spoken of above please feel free to PM me.
     
  13. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    << i am a former sikh yet i see the sikhs and muslims as two races who are really ONE divided by WORDS, these people are in the same boat and its sinking.

    Do not end up in that mess for GOD IS INFINITE God does not live in a house! or a temple! God lives in you.>>

    prove your point that sikhism and islam are one .there are truck loads of differences between islam and sikhism.as far as god is concerned sikhism
    fully accept this that god is infinite and god does not live in a house or temple so actually you are propagating theory of sikhism.
     
  14. drkhalsa

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    Dear Friend

    Welcome to this forum !

    You have written some interesting stuff, thanks for that




    And what you are know ? I hope you havent elevated your position of god , I just guessed this from your statement



    And just I would like to share that you are not the first one on this earth and also on this forum who are so so called former sikh , and fortunately on this forum we have long list of them

    :) And we all know from where you all are coming :)



    Another interesting statement !

    I also read something like that about the Aryans that migrated to India , they were also Chandravansi ( from moon ) Intersesting isnt it !!?


    But dear friend if you care to ponder on this then i will tell you that AGE OF MOON IS MUCH MORE THAN SUN and it is not me this is what Science proved

    Sun is buring down and age has been predicted when it will evetually die and it involves verious step ( shrininking and expanding )

    So Moon is going to stay longer

    But dont worry I know if it happens Isla m will be more than happey to you under command of Moon god .



    Also you didnt mention What havenely Body Sikhism represent
    I guess you also agree that as Sikhism is from AKAL ( timeless)so need for SUN, Moon .

    One more thing As it apprent from your post you are going back to your roots that is SUM God , Moon god stuff in other PAGANS So keep it up !



    Jatinder Singh
     
  15. JawDroppingPhilosopher

    JawDroppingPhilosopher
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    On what base does scientific research support the fact that the moon will outlive the sun? HOW CAN YOU MEASURE THAT?

    IT IS A PREDICTION!

    when the sun dies out so do we

    I am actually referring to Jesus being a symbol of the Sun, dont you understand? Your religion is just a repretition of hinduism and islam, what is the point in that when these earlier religions evolved from Babylonian religions?

    Your own book tells you not to follow a caste system but you still do.

    And to Kds1980, claiming that sikhism supports my view that God is not significantly more present in one house than in any other part of the world may be true in THEORY.... BUT IN PRACTICE YOUR RELIGION FAILS!!

    There is a more sacred place were "God lives!" its called the Harmandir Sahib, Just like Islams Mecca.

    And what exactly do you understand of my image of God compared to your vision of a man who wants the human race to be divided, defeated and plagued by war!

    And science cannot seem to prove anything today! Infact if you love science so much then wasnt it science that created the biggest wave of atheists on this planet?

    HOW MANY TIMES HAS SCIENCE BEEN WRONG ANYWAY? You need to step back and question your own belief.

    And ill tell you what i am now, im far from sikh, ill never be sikh or muslim again, you can resort to your perpetual violent and murderous nature hidden by this complete facade of peace ill never be Sikh

    " I AM THAT I AM "
     
  16. JawDroppingPhilosopher

    JawDroppingPhilosopher
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    On what base does scientific research support the fact that the moon will outlive the sun? HOW CAN YOU MEASURE THAT?

    IT IS A PREDICTION!

    when the sun dies out so do we

    I am actually referring to Jesus being a symbol of the Sun, dont you understand? Your religion is just a repretition of hinduism and islam, what is the point in that when these earlier religions evolved from Babylonian religions?

    Your own book tells you not to follow a caste system but you still do.

    And to Kds1980, claiming that sikhism supports my view that God is not significantly more present in one house than in any other part of the world may be true in THEORY.... BUT IN PRACTICE YOUR RELIGION FAILS!!

    There is a more sacred place were "God lives!" its called the Harmandir Sahib, Just like Islams Mecca.

    And what exactly do you understand of my image of God compared to your vision of a man who wants the human race to be divided, defeated and plagued by war!

    And science cannot seem to prove anything today! Infact if you love science so much then wasnt it science that created the biggest wave of atheists on this planet?

    HOW MANY TIMES HAS SCIENCE BEEN WRONG ANYWAY? You need to step back and question your own belief.

    And ill tell you what i am now, im far from sikh, ill never be sikh or muslim again, you can resort to your perpetual violent and murderous nature hidden by this complete facade of peace ill never be Sikh

    " I AM THAT I AM "
     
  17. BoleSoNihaalSSA

    BoleSoNihaalSSA
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    You are talking about the viewpoint of people who follow religions. If you belive in GOD in real sense than you cant escape Sikhism whether you accept it or not.
     
  18. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear JawDroppingPhilosopher


    Good to see you still here





    NO IT IS NOT PREDICTION :)

    Predictions are made in Semitic Religions and there books .

    THESE ARE THE FACTS !!

    Basis :

    Sun is composed of heliwm and hydrogen and constant nuclear reaction ios going on there is using its own matter as fuel and one day it will Finish all the fuel !
    It has been percisely calculated that SUN has Completed half of its Life so Kind of mid life crisis:)
    About moon It is not burning Mass so question of Perishing :) Funny Isnt it

    THE VERY PRESUMPTIOM WOITH WHICH YOU STARTED YOUR POST IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG !!!

    jUST TO MENTION AND BE CLEAR THAT THIS YOUR PHILOSOPHY OF COMPARING RELIGION WITH SUN AND MOON AND EVEN IN THAT YOUR ABSOLUTELY WRONG :)


    NOW THE SECOND ISSUE ABOUT SCIENCE:

    Science has always been boon to man kind and it has helped creating
    ATHEIST which is much better than BLIND RELIGIOUS FoLLWERS just liek you
    Bacause Athesit still has a chance someday to see the truth ( And the only and ultimate truth is GOD itself )

    But a Blind follwer has no option just to follow religion blindly :)





    This is your personal view and not a Sikh View ( May be you are attending wrong Classes ?!:) )





    ABSOLUTELY WRONG YET AGAIN !!!

    Science is the only maodalty that can prove anything rest else is belief

    I KNOW SCIENCE CANT PROOVE EVERYTHING ( AS IT IS NOT GOD BUT A MODALITY CREATED BY GOD :) ) BUT DONT FORGET IT IS ONLY THING THAT CAN PROVE IT IS NOT DEAD THING BUT A GRWING THING MAKING ADVACES ON DAILY BASIS AND PROVING THINGS


    \



    Just for your information May be you were never SIKH to start with .

    To be born in sikh family doesnot make you SIKH .SO Dont worry about going far away as you are fortunate enough to be ever Close to SIKHI EVER >

    I still suspect that you might have have gone too far may be up to the position of Creater

    Now about being Sikh , there is hardly any need for everybody to be sikh
    And it is your presumption thta you count Sikh and Islam in one go

    Now The Interesting Stuff

    WHAT WAR SIKH HAVE RAGED
    WHAT BRUTALITY THE OLD FACE /DISGUISED FACE ( IN NAME OF CHRISTIANITY ) CHRISTIANITY HA sNOT DONE IN WHOLE HUMAN HISTORY - I GUESS THEY HAVE DONE EVERY THING POSSIBLE




    Any way you have full right to believe what ever you want but our ( SIKHS) duty is help you come out of self created ILLUSIONS .






    Jatinder Singh
     
  19. JawDroppingPhilosopher

    JawDroppingPhilosopher
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    Yes your einstein theories of quantum physics havent scared me off lol.

    You complete moron, how can you believe everything in science, my point was that scientific theory is NEVER ALWAYS correct, now your taking my point out of context.

    "Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory." Stephen W. Hawking.

    Science has proved itself over and over again that its theories are incorrect, we still do not know how old this planet is, in scientific theory it is getting older as MATHEMATICS contradicts each theory.

    What you fail to understand is that only mathematics is universal, this is my only truth, not a book full of hypocrisy and symbolic rituals.

    Mr Singh lol. I AGREE, yes the above basis is FACT but it is far from what i said in a previous post that scientists cannot measure how long it will be until the sun burns out, this is theorem (refer back to the Stephen Hawking's quote) you realised this, and knew you couldnt prove this statement i made to be wrong... So you decide instead to tell me what the sun's composition is?... were did that come from?:)

    I can use smiley faces too:)

    What are you talking about? Get this into your head... I FOLLOW NO RELIGION. I have freedom of thought, you, supporting your holy book of sikhism follow nothing beyond that!

    Your religion is similar to others in that it expresses a massive concept of numerology, the number 3 in numerology expresses a form of 'neutrality', the fact that Guru Nanak arrived back after 3 days and proclaimed there is no hindu or muslim shows the concept of neutrality through the use of numerology in your religion, just like the 666 symbol, the 332 babylonian symbol, infact the 666 symbol is hidden worhip of the number 9, DO YOUR RESEARCH.

    Infact where have you taken this conversation? My point originally was that todays religions originate from Babylonian religions which are all sun worship and moon worship... hinduism evolved from babylonia, sikhism evolved from hinduism ITS THE SAME THING!!!!

    When did i ask you about quantum physics? A subject which you clearly have no understanding of, I think you should understand that quantum physics is a concept your mind will never grasp as it is imprisoned and narrow, quantum physics states that matter has an intelligence, which is what i said at the start, i believe God fills this entire universe, you believe God fills a house.

    No this is not actually my view, dont insult my intelligence, i read this garbage off a sikh missionary groups poster in one of your "holy" temples. SO IT IS YOUR PEOPLES VIEW They said AND I QUOTE.."Harmandir Sahib (Abode of God).

    Definition of Abode: The house or place where one lives.

    I think you should inform your own so called sikh religious people before you start analysing my freedom of thought with your closed minded religious theorem and simple understanding of OUR universe.

    Mr Jatinder, the fact that i gained the above quote from your "brotherhood" proves that you have bitten off more than you can chew.

    I have studied quantum physics for years, dont patronise me, its laughable. Maybe you should start by arranging your vocab in proper form before you dwell in the complex nature of our misunderstood universe.

    There is no proof that Guru Nanak existed, this proof is clearly hidden due to the fact that sikhs do not want to accept that their main Guru fell to the will of "Allah", a Moon god. Yes, Guru Nanak was a muslim, the evidence that he did exist points to the fact that he was a muslim THERE IS PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, YOU LIKE THAT DONT YOU MR SINGH? BUT YOU BELIEVE A "THEORY" TO BE ALWAYS CORRECT? DO YOU BELIEVE THIS THEORY?



    Sikhs complete history is filled with violent beheadings and wars, it is the egotistical nature of sikhs that they are a military "brotherhood" who killed thousends of muslims, muslims are no different this is why i was right when i said in my very first post that islam and sikhism are a human RACE if you hadnt noticed divided by WORDS! Stuck in the same boat.

    Christians and monotheistic religions have created more wars in history than anyone else!

    Fisrt you say science is the only concept that can prove anything? Then in the same sentance you basicly say, "well it cant really but its good". Get real, i cant belive your actually still here.

    Im wrong am i? Why dont we look at the similarities of babylonian religions and todays so called "better" religions, you know a thousend years ago people believed the world was flat, that the sun was God, that there were thousends of Gods, today people would laugh at that, whats saying that people a thousend years from now WONT LAUGH AT WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN?!

    just look at the similarities, remember your religion sikhism is an evolved version of hinduism and islam, so it can also be taken into this arguement, just because your religion is young doesnt mean you can escape from the following comparitive analysis. You came from hinduism.

    Study the following page.

    http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html

    Symbology of ancient babylonian gods exists of great proportions in modern day religions, in christianity for example we have the steeple or Obelisk, an obelisk is simply a large {censored word, do not repeat.}, the {censored word, do not repeat.} of Osiris this is an ancient Egyptian symbol which has evolved from babylon, so it started in babylon, then evolved into egyptian theology and now christianity.

    Just like i said, if you research the dress of the Pope you will realise the similarities between the Popes clothes and that of an Egyptian Pharaoh, They are the SAME!!

    The sun symbolism is incredible! the word "church" also evolved from an ancient babylonian "ABODE!" of a goddess.

    This is all truth, religions follow complex numerology and worship of the planets, the worship of the planet venus in Islam is also apparent, if you do your research you will realise it makes sense.

    "I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it"

    Go back to the beginning, go back 10,000 years ago and start your research.

    "For when one seeks to establish foundations, one must begin at the beginning."

    The Statue of Liberty...to this day, kings still wear a round "crown of thorns",
    symbolising the rays of the Sun!


    Just like jesus!

    "GOD'S SUN". Truly, "God's Sun/Son was...
    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.


    As stated before, in the dark cold of night man realised his utter vulnerability to the elements. Each night, mankind was forced to wait for the " Risen Sun" to chase away the physical and mental insecurity brought on by the darkness. Therefore, the morning Sun focused man's attention on heavenly dependents for his frail, short existence on Earth, and in doing so, it became the appropriate symbol of divine benevolence from heaven.

    So just as small fire brought limited light into man's own little world of darkness, likewise the "Great Fire of Day" served the whole Earth with its heavenly presence.
    For this reason, it was said at Deut 4:24, and Heb 12:29 that the God of the Bible was a "Consuming Fire" in heaven. And so He is!


    It was accepted by all that man was bound to a life on Earth, but the sky was God the Father's abode - His dwelling place. Naturally, God's Son/Sun would also reside with his Father " up in HEAVEN". Ancient man saw in his male offspring his own image and likeness, and his own existence as a father was proved by the person of his son. It was assumed that God's 'Sun was but a visible representative of the unseen Creator in heaven. So it was said, "When you have seen the Sun, you have seen the Father ". or "The Father is glorified in his Sun/son".

    Since life is energy, and energy from the Sun gave life, and we sustained our very existence by taking energy in from our food (which came directly from God's Sun), the Sun/son(jesus) must give up its life supporting energy so that we may continue to live.
    "God's Sun gives his life for us to live."


    Logically, even if man himself died, as long as the Sun comes up each day, life on Earth will continue forever. Therefore, it was said in the ancient texts that everlasting life was "the gift" that the Father gives through his Sun. For..."God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten SUN that we may have life everlasting"....on Earth!
    Not for you personally - but ON EARTH... everlasting life!

    Deeper analysis of christianity brings us to light of the age of
    Pisces, if you notice the symbolism of the "fish" the "fisherman", the Popes hat is infact a large Fish shaped hat when turned to its side.

    LOOK!!!! ITS TRUE!!!!

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n2029.cfm

    The fact that jesus and his 12 disciples represent the 12 months in a year, yet these religions as i said are filled with occult (hidden) numerology and symbolism, we find that there are infact 13 months in a year, YES THATS RIGHT!!!

    just count the days after the 28th day, and it will usually add up to 28 or 29 depending on leap year factors, the hidden month represents the SUN.

    (I worked this out myself without research so i dont know yet if this is plausable)

    Yes also our language tells us the truth, pointy symbols in ancient babylonia symbolised evil and the devil, (just like a knife, lightning bolt, witches hat, just look at the way you talk... say Evil and notice the sharp voicing of this word deVil, eVil

    Now say, Son, Sun, God, Jesus, Yeyshua, do you see the comparison? The fact that people saw roundness and wholeness as good such as the sun and evil as sharp, it is in our language.




    But this is only the tip of the iceburg.

    I am not closed minded,
    I am not blinded,
    I am me,
    Therefore i am free,

    I am not belonging to a religion, i belong to infinite energy and endless thought.

    I THINK THEREFORE I AM
     
  20. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    <<There is no proof that Guru Nanak existed, this proof is clearly hidden due to the fact that sikhs do not want to accept that their main Guru fell to the will of "Allah", a Moon god. Yes, Guru Nanak was a muslim, the evidence that he did exist points to the fact that he was a muslim THERE IS PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, YOU LIKE THAT DONT YOU MR SINGH? BUT YOU BELIEVE A "THEORY" TO BE ALWAYS CORRECT? DO YOU BELIEVE THIS THEORY?>>


    first i have doubt now i am sure that you are a muslim whose aim is to ridicule sikhism.only muslims beleive that guru nanak was a muslim.any person with normal mind know that guru nanak firmly beleive in reincarnation so how could he be a muslim.as far as your allegation that
    sikh god lives in harmandar sahib yes god lives in harmandar sahib.infact
    god lives there where he is remembered.then why can't god be in harmandar sahib.it does not say that god only lives in harmandar sahib.


    jaw dropping mullah i just asked you to prove that sikhism is like islam AND YOU FAILED TO PROVE IT.either prove your point with shabads from
    guru granth sahib or from genuine source of sikh history or accept your defeat.
     
  21. angel776

    angel776
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    very interesting debate, both pose good views but jawdropping clearly has a higher level of understanding in my opinion.

    i agree with jawdropping, science is never right, cause it cant exist without mathematics an mathematics cnt exist without energy.

    i think thers a lot of hypocrisy in sikhism and in all other religions! but at the end of the day its a belief an it brings family 2getha

    duno wht u ment cause sikhisms history is full of violence and war the following link explns it..

    http://bmagdns.co.uk/taran/sw2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemi d=27

    That last post in my opinion has ended this debate,,




    maj.

    , lol id love to know wer you got that from, very interesting concept!!
     

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