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Who is God in Sikhism?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Amardeep, Apr 9, 2006.

  1. Amardeep

    Amardeep Member SPNer

    sath shri akal jee.

    i've always thought that God in sikhism is the same as God in Islam, a unseen God, and not as in christianity where Jesus is God.

    but now when im reading on varius webpages, and sikh books people are calling Nanak "Satguru", Gobind Singh is called the "Creator", and Nanak is called Nirankar..

    was Guru Nanak God?

    i've even read such statements here on this page.

    if he was, then who was he praying to?

    it does not make sence to me, that Guru Nanak and the following Gurus could have been God..

    can someone please explain to me who God and the Guru's are in sikhism...

    thank u in advance...
  2. Sathanuman Singh

    Sathanuman Singh New Member SPNer

    tony likes this.
  3. Amardeep

    Amardeep Member SPNer

    i see..

    so God is an unseen God as in Islam, and the Guru's were just enlightend with "light" and were one with God, even though they were not God?

    i see...
  4. Anoop

    Anoop Member SPNer

    your taking of god being external. Thats your point of view. The thing is god is inernal and external. Its like, we dont know of it but its the truth. God is the ultimate truth that exists. I am not saying it in gods point of view as i dont know what god is, but god is everywhere, we are part of it...thts our human body...but god is us, and we are god, but we are like the extentions of god. God is within us. Believe in the truth with all your heart. This site might help you, its what sikhism is, but this is someone who actually taken the basics of sikhism, though he hasnt mentioned it: http://www.adidam.org/teaching/first_word/complete_text.html
  5. DragonKhanda

    DragonKhanda New Member SPNer

    Wow, I only read the first two paragraphs and am suprised to hear how much it sounds like Sikhism! :)

    Amardeep; perhaps this analogy will help you.
    We know that there are three parts to an atom, the electron, proton, and neutron. Then there are subatomic particles that make up each atom, like the quark. It will be awile till science discovers the next step; personally i dont think they will ever find the end to guru's Creation. But anyway, think of God/guru/Spirit/soul whatever you want to call it, as, say another subatomic particle, or something proven but intangible; the magnetic poles, love, time, the sikhtron (yes i know thats not a documented term, i just made it up for the sak of the example). Its hard to get your head around when you been brought up on something else your entire life; I still dont understand it to the point of Oh! or whatever, but i understand the principle of it.

    Like when you're in second grade or so, and the teacher is trying to explain the concept of time. How to get that first understanding? That is the most difficult.

    When you think of say, your keyboard, and its shadow. You think they are entirly different things, but we know there is a reason for these. Dont think of the wind as air, it is God. Why does the wind blow? Because of the wind over there? Humans breathing? God is in the buttons you press, the lungs you use to breathe air into your body, the greass outside. "just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isnt there."

    Clear as mud? Hope i made some sense. :p

    Sat Sri Akal
  6. Nim_23

    Nim_23 New Member SPNer

    Awal Allah noor upaya kudrat ke sab bande

    GURVINDER New Member SPNer

    God Is One Who Created The Whole World And We All Are The Son Of That God,ev
  8. Veeru

    Veeru Member SPNer

    Just because different religions named him differently, it doesn't mean there are different Gods...
  9. max314

    max314 Well-Known Member SPNer

    God's name is Bob.

    Bob the God.

    That's why they rhyme.
  10. Anoop

    Anoop Member SPNer

    :confused: your joking right?:crazy:
  11. max314

    max314 Well-Known Member SPNer

    No, really. God is Bob.

    I insist.

    Now, if we can just get enough people together to believe that, we can start our new religion of Bobism :wink:
  12. CaliforniaSeeker

    CaliforniaSeeker New Member SPNer

    Religion of Bobism? Well, there's always the Church of the Sub-Genius... :wink:

    Seriously, though, my understanding (gathered from reading different sources) of what Sikhi believes/teaches about God/Waheguru/the Ground of All Being/choose your term is roughly the following:

    There is only one Divine. Some religions use the name "God", some use "Allah", some use "Jehovah", some use more than one name, some use none. In all of these cases, what we have is humans trying to understand something transcendent and trying to explain something ineffable. The different portrayals and understandings of what the Divine is/does/wants are all reaching for the same thing, but nobody is able to fully understand it or explain it. We can't -- we're inherently limited. Our inability to do so doesn't mean the Divine doesn't exist, it just means we don't understand it.

    An analogy that comes to mind is vision. As a human, I can't directly see ultraviolet radiation. My inability to see it directly doesn't mean it's not there, however, as I will find out to my sorrow if I spend too much time outdoors without sunblock. :)

    I am a seeker and a student; if what I've said seems incorrect to anyone, please let me know -- I want to learn as much as I can and correct any misunderstandings I may have gotten into.
  13. Anoop

    Anoop Member SPNer

    I think the problem is...about having faith, i mean...people say why talk about god when you just need to listen to your inner voice. Thats what i am confused on, does god really want us to get on with life, or to remember him threough teachings. I mean do we need religion, isnt it not enough to be spiritual. This brings a debate amongst spirtualism and religion.:confused:
  14. Nim_23

    Nim_23 New Member SPNer

    Religion is like a path to light for a human being. A being without a religion will be lost. He will not know whres he heading towards.

    Sikhism is one of the world’s simplest faiths, yet very strong discipline and the results produced by it have been very powerful. Sikhism helps one to devote his life to God and attain salvation.

    Thus is explains the rising number of American Sikhs.
  15. max314

    max314 Well-Known Member SPNer

    Well, there are growing numbers of members in many faiths, particularly Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all over the world, so I don't think that Sikkhism is the only faith that people feel provides them "a path to light", as you put it.

    But I find it interesting that Guru Nanak's sentiments never actually promoted religion, nor did he promote any other form of institutionalised belief system. Rather, he spent most of his time pointing out the common goods in existing religions, and condemning what he perceived to be their individual deficits.

    I don't think that Sikkhism is a 'religion', though I believe that Khalsaism is.

    The reason for this is very simple: the Guru Granth Sahib promotes equality, secularism, non-discrminatory, non-divisional views on living with a God who is featureless, formless and timeless. It rejects the notion of rituals and routines, and it discards the importance of wearing particular clothes over the content of one's character. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Dassam Granth, on the other hand, teaches that a Khalsa is above all and that a Khalsa should not consort with non-Khalsas. It teaches of a God who is wrathful and vengeful, and places importance on certain rituals (e.g. taking amrit) and codes of practice and dress (e.g. the Five K's, etc).

    Weighing up the two sets of information, it would seem to me that the way of the Khalsa measures up to all the distinguishable requisites of a religion, whereas Sikkhism is almost entirely independent of that.

    The Khalsa, it seems, was forged very deliberately into a warrior cult or religion in order to protect those universal, non-institutional teachings of the Granth and to enforce its principles. A 'necessary evil', one might say.

    Of course, given the amount of time and the proximity with which Sikkhism and its warrior Khalsa cult have lived side-by-side has meant that many Khalsaist influences have trickled down and eventually set upon the now-accepted image of Sikkhism. But, in my view, the two are always going to be essentially separate, though historically linked.
    Scarlet Pimpernel and Ishna like this.
  16. CaliforniaSeeker

    CaliforniaSeeker New Member SPNer

    What an interesting thought. I've come across many pieces of writing by Sikhs saying that Nanak 1 and Nanak 10 (and all the Nanaks in between) were the same consciousness and thus there are no contradictions and, in fact, there cannot be any contradictions between Nanak Dev Ji's teachings and Gobind Singh Ji's teachings -- they are the same. As someone coming to Sikhi from outside, however, I have to say that from this perspective, there are significant differences between the two.

    And, while hoping this doesn't sound arrogant ("who are you to pick and choose among the Guru's teachings?" you may ask) I must say that Nanak Dev Ji's teachings resonate in my heart much, much more than Gobind Singh Ji's do.
  17. max314

    max314 Well-Known Member SPNer

    Mm...let me make my views as they stand at present as clear as possible on this matter.

    I do not think that the Gurus had the same 'soul'. I do not think that the Gurus were any more 'divine' than you or I (i.e. we are all divine, because we are all a part of God/the Cosmos/the Universe, as per the writings of gurbani). I also think that believing something as Paganistic/dietic and mystical as this would be a direct betrayal of the Gurus' teachings.

    It is this 'Brahminical' thinking - applied to the Sikkh faith - that will be its ultimate demise.

    You see, once you start believing that any man who is made of clay is somehow more 'God-like' than any other man of clay, you instantly instill a culture of hierarchical division. The Tenth Master often said that a gurudwara should never be erected in his name, because the only entity to be recognised is the One God (through whom all men, animals, plants, stars and planets exist as one unified entity) was the One God ("ik onkaar" is the only concept in Sikkhism...that's why it's so simple...it's designed around an all-unifying singularity that requires no priests, no statues, no rituals, no saints, no prophets, no messiahs, nothing in order to be reached...everyone is in touch with God / the Universe in every minute of their life, even if they don't consciously know it). When Guru Nanak died, the location of his death bed was built over in order to prevent ritualised worship to...nothing.

    Guru Nanak was essentially a man who travelled the world looking for answers and testing out his theories. He came to the conclusion that only one God existed, and that all men were equal under him, and that all men had an innate access to him that didn't require any third parties or strange witchcraft.

    He then passed on the core of his teachings to Guru Angad Dev (Guru Nanak used "angad" as a term of affection, meaning "part of me"...aw, sweet? :D), who actually retreated into the caves after Guru Nanak's death with a combination of grief upon the death of his mentor and a sense of burden at the prospect of having to follow up such a great man as a philosophical leader (again, this whole thing begs the question as to how they could possibly be 'one soul'...).

    But Angad eventually rose to the challenge, and wonderfully so. He stressed the importance of seva (the concept of selfless service to your fellow humans), the importance to submit to the Cosmic Will and not become frustrated with what you perceive to be negative events in life (e.g. death, monetary losses, etc), as well as the outright disapproval of being overly showy and dishonest. He also standardise the gurmukhi script to aid its reading.

    Guru Arjan Dev JiThe most noteworthy additions and alterations to the scriptures came when - the Fifth Master - actually rewrote some of Guru Nanak's writings, including the all-important mool mantra (again, if there is one consciousness, then why is there a need to ammend previous writings? It's not like the Truth has changed).

    Guru Gobind Singh Ji's creation of the Khalsa knights was a necessity of the time, and was a warrior group based on his own idealised image of a spiritual warrior; a turban-bearing, sword-wielding soldier who was in love with the essence of steel and what it brought in terms of the power to do righteous deeds in the face of inhuman opponents.

    I've never doubted Guru Gobind Singh Ji's actions or methods even once. I believe that the Tenth Master did what he had to do. And did it exceedingly well: UNESCO recognises the acts of Khalsa warriors on the same level as those of the Spartan warriors of ancient Greece.

    However, just as the situation had changed between the time of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind, so too has the time changed between Guru Gobind and today's world. Moreso, in fact.

    My proposition is that Sikkhism - a faith that believes in the Will of God (e.g. evolution and change) - should be able to...well...evolve and change.

    What form that change takes is not something I want to discuss, but I'll leave it to you all to decide.
    Ishna likes this.
  18. Nim_23

    Nim_23 New Member SPNer

    Most of us are aware how christians and islam members try to speak to ppl of other religion to get them to convert In fact in S'pore christians go door to door to promote their religion to get others to believe them to convert to their religion which is the 'best' religion.

    As for islam members they brainwash the ignorant to believe that the islam religion is the one and only religion and Allah is de only god; other religion gods are fake and other religions are devils etc etc.

    However most of those American Sikhs who convert is because in their bible it is stated about the olden days - in a certain year Nanak wil arrive and these Americal Sikhs realised that he Nanak really came in that year and thus their interest led them to Sikhism which they learnt the right path, values, they found peace in the Sikhism. No one forced them to convert.

    Has anyone off you ever read about someone converting to Sikh by force or regrets converting?

    This is my view, no offence to anyone. Thank you.
  19. navroopsingh

    navroopsingh New Member SPNer

    God is the same belief and principle in most religions. Unfortunately, at one point or another, under various leaders the interpretation changes and suddenly you get hate mail or pamphlets saying things like the end of false religion is near or accept allah or die(i have gotten that from a muslim i met :(). God is everywhere at all time, yet i recall a line from rehras sahib or japji sahib saying something about him sometimes travelling under the "guise" of a poor beggar, or traveller etc. but i cant remember exactly, i will try to find the quotation.
  20. hpluthera

    hpluthera New Member SPNer

    Dear Amardeep and others intersted in the Topic'
    When we have questions arie in our mind who am I? who is God? the real answres can only be found in Gurbani in itself and once we know from there ten there remains no darkness.
    Sakhi Baba Nanak:
    When he went in Baieen Stream to take bath and did not come out for 13 days and the family thaght "nank" drowned and he finally emerged on the 13th Day of Kirya final righs. when all village and Brahmins were present and every one was delighted to see him and amazed as well. So when asked where was he Guru Nanak expressed that He was in communion with Nirankar the One Supreme (Akal Purukh). Evryone rediculed him and Brahman questioned hard doubting if he is crazy, and a direct question was asked to Guru Nanak "Tell us how does your Nirankar Looks like" so Guru Recited:
    Mool Mantra
    IK Onkar Satnaam Kartapurukh, Nirbhau, Nirvair, Akal Moorat, ......

    and thus came the Japji Sahib.
    The one you want to know is the only one for billions and trillions so how can you capture Him in one Name that is why in Gurbani Gurus said "Apna Guru Diayiye" "Apne Gur Ka sun updesh" So your intention to reach Him by what ever Name you know Him is okay. If you say RAM RAM RAM fast it will start siunding MARA MARA MARA and same if you say GOD GOD GOD it will start sounding DOG DOG DOG. Does that mean your worship wil be lessened by that no your Shardha and Prem will be the offering name is the support.
    You Submit to Him yourself not the language name by which you know Him.
    SGGS therefore has hundreds names for Almighty Lord. The matter is with belief and faith. You cry any name wihout faith it has no meaning.

    If you are thirsty and you are served water by use of some Name you do not understand it will still quench your thirst because it is water what you want.
    On the other hand if you are given something else but is called water
    although its has Name water but it will not quench your thirst.
    So is God's Name - Jisko Lagi Piyas --Naam Ki Piyas he only knows His reality.

    So dear Friends Naam Simran is the only way to answer all questions automatically yes I gaurantee.

    HP Luthera

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