What Is Anhaad Naad?

[Sherdil]

How do you get from 9 gates/openings to a 10th opening that is 'common sense' ??

Where did I say that the 10th gate is common sense? I said CLARITY is the opening of the 10th gate.

Who says ??..Where ??.......Prove it please ?......or try and justify.

Again......where do you get this assumption from ?
Which shabad ?...which book ?... which text ??

Which book do you think? Guru Granth Sahib of course!

Who is the deluded one looking at a brick wall ?........(in a box!)
How do you know what is genuine when you want to confine yourself in a box(as wonderfully described by Akasha) ?

You feel...?......you feel nindiya.
Don't worry.. I'm not asking for praise either because a gurmukh is above BOTH Nindyia and Ustat (as per gurbani)
Experiencing the divine does NOT require any validation, justification, and of course- approval by people in a box.

You talk of nindiya, yet you say we are living in a box. Doesn't make sense.

This is how I can tell that your experiences aren't real. Look how you behave. You sound like a madman. Whatever you are experiencing isn't doing you much good.

This isn't the first time you have randomly flown off into a tantrum. I don't know if you intentionally do this to sabotage the debate and reduce it into a meaningless back and forth, but it isn't conducive to a healthy discussion.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Akasha ji.,

Please stop assuming things for a change which were never said nor suggested. Show me where I mentioned anything about spiritual experiences which I have always admitted are personal ones only, hence can never be shared nor replicated. But that is not the point of my post anyway. Please stop seeing things that are not in my posts which you have often done.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

arrrggghhhh then pls stop being so cryptic then! lol Its very hard to discern what you mean since you always answer in riddles which appear to be the answer to a previous post, but then when asked about it, you say that's not what it meant at all. It's confusing!



sorry...

 

[Luckysingh]

Akasha ji,

All drug addictions are temporary highs and are bad for mind, body and soul- whatever the last may mean to the individuals.

This has nothing to do with spiritual meditation,simran, naam japna...etc..
I have also helped/saved many of these victims of society and I know a fair deal about abused substances.
A drug addict's actions are completely 'MANMAT' and they know it, but they get stuck in a corkscrew spiral effect.

But you are implying that the Spiritual approach of meditation, naam jap, enshrining gurmantar/shabad in one's Mind is MANMATT ?....just like a drug abuser ?

So, something that I would call completely 100% GURMAT, if done properly,...you are blatantly calling it 100% Manmat outright ?

..Correction-Drug addict can't be 100% Manmat if they have attempted to seek help and address it...so there will be a percentage of Gurmat there. But in fairness we can say that their initial approach that resulted in the problem was completely Manmat....yes ?

The metaphors used in Gurbani about this are the metaphors for us to learn about what doing good means.

Which metaphors are we referring to here ?

Just feeling good by oneself on his/her own is a selfish way and involves me-ism that Gurbani rejects vehemently.

By ''me-ism''...you mean ''Self'' ??....the term Harry often uses ?

If so, then what do you understand as the difference between ''Self'' and "Higher Self'' ....if there is any ?
Do you agree/disagree that ''Higher Self'' can be a reference to Akal purakh-Ek onkaar ?

Gurbani teaches us how to become flowers of the Gurmat Garden so that we are capable of emitting our scent in all directions to all, irrespective of anyone's hue,creed or faith sans bias. And this is a very tangible endeavour which is shared with others and more importantly, it is one of the legs of the three legged stool Guru Nanak made Sikhi sit on.

3 legged stool... as in the 3 pillars ??
Do these 3 legs/pillars carry equal weight ?
so Naam japna = Kirat karna = Vand shakna.......yes?

It is my assumption that you are implying that one can leave naam japna out and do the other two instead ?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

To Sherdil:

I KNOW my experiences are real. No matter what I say will do no good, and you will just assume / feel that I am deluded. So there is no point in me even trying to explain, so why do you even keep asking? You obviously don't want to actually hear the answer, because since you can't prove it yourself, you will never believe anyone else.

This sums up how I see this debate:

A blind man reads a book (braille) which describes the sky.

Because he has never had any direct experience with the sky, he assumes 'sky' is a metaphor for something else... something else within HIS experience (meaning anything which does not involve sight).

A man who can see comes along, and explains to the man that the book is describing a real sky, which is above him and he can see it.

The blind man asks him to describe it, so he tells the man well, it's blue and it's vast and it's the most beautiful thing.

The blind man says, but the sky is certainly not real. I think the book is just describing my happiness.

The other man tells him, no I really can see it!

The blind man says seeing is not a real thing, how do you know you are not hallucinating or dreaming when you claim to 'see' something? Isn't this experience just a delusion? After all, I can't see anything!

...and this is where we stand.

And there is no point in continuing... because only through actual experience will you know for sure, and only you can cause that to happen.

 

[Luckysingh]

Where did I say that the 10th gate is common sense? I said CLARITY is the opening of the 10th gate.

OK...my bad...I grabbed the end of akasha's post mentioning common sense with clarity.
What do you mean by clarity then ?

Which book do you think? Guru Granth Sahib of course!

Where and which ang/shabad ?

You talk of nindiya, yet you say we are living in a box. Doesn't make sense.

This is how I can tell that your experiences aren't real. Look hhow you behave. You sound like a madman. Whatever you are experiencing isn't doing you much good.

Did I say something about what I'm experiencing, except that i'm prepared to be outside of a physical box ?
Kabir ji said that the others were calling him a mad man and saying he had gone insane, but he replied and showed that he was above all their nindyia and ustat, because he had become One and 'ik-mik' with the truth....'bigherio Kabira raam duhayee''............it didn't matter if they slated, praised or say that he's changed and gone off the rails.

This isn't the first time you have randomly flown off into a tantrum. I don't know if you intentionally do this to sabotage the debate and reduce it into a meaningless back and forth, but it isn't conducive to a healthy discussion.

There's no tantrum. I'm questioning assumptions that have no grounds or base.
I have asked for the basis of these assumptions and you assume a tantrum.
Yet again, you have not provided the source or answered.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

This has nothing to do with spiritual meditation,simran, naam japna...etc..
I have also helped/saved many of these victims of society and I know a fair deal about abused substances.
A drug addict's actions are completely 'MANMAT' and they know it, but they get stuck in a corkscrew spiral effect.

But you are implying that the Spiritual approach of meditation, naam jap, enshrining gurmantar/shabad in one's Mind is MANMATT ?....just like a drug abuser ?

Lucky ji:

Guru Fateh.

I never implied that. I used a comparison that transitory highs are like drug addicts' highs those who parrot some mantar repeatedly and mechanically. I never accused anyone of being a parrot here nor did I imply that towards anyone. Guru Nanak was also against any mechanical rituals as mentioned in my other post here. Gurbani talks about how parroting is futile in many verses. As I said many times and it needs repeating here that personal experiences are personal ones only. Period.

Now, if anyone in this forum considers him/herself a parrot then we can talk further about it. So, please re- read my posts again rather than trying to imply something that was never mentioned by me nor intended.

So, something that I would call completely 100% GURMAT, if done properly,...you are blatantly calling it 100% Manmat outright ?

You are making things up here, my friend. I will not judge that being gurmat or manmat. That is for you to decide. In fact I never mentioned those words ever in my posts.

.Correction-Drug addict can't be 100% Manmat if they have attempted to seek help and address it...so there will be a percentage of Gurmat there. But in fairness we can say that their initial approach that resulted in the problem was completely Manmat....yes ?

I am glad you rethought your thought process which is always good. I am not here to judge any drug addicts and what made them do that. You mentioned above that you have helped drug addicts in your life. As you have, then you must realise that people who help them do not judge them either way.

Which metaphors are we referring to here ?

I have no idea what you mean by the above.

By ''me-ism''...you mean ''Self'' ??....the term Harry often uses ?
If so, then what do you understand as the difference between ''Self'' and "Higher Self'' ....if there is any ?

I have no idea what Harry means. You have to ask him. I have always used Me-ism as opposite of being selfless. You may check my other posts in this forum regarding the usage.

Do you agree/disagree that ''Higher Self'' can be a reference to Akal purakh-Ek onkaar ?

I haven't the faintest notion what the higher self means nor would I attempt to define it because it is beyond my limited understanding.

3 legged stool... as in the 3 pillars ??
Do these 3 legs/pillars carry equal weight ?
so Naam japna = Kirat karna = Vand shakna.......yes?

It is my assumption that you are implying that one can leave naam japna out and do the other two instead ?

Yes, the 3 legged stool is Naam Japnah, Kirat Karni and Vand kei Shaknah.

It is interesting to notice that you are implying/assuming things which were never mentioned rather than asking me what I understand by Naam Japnah which could differ from your understanding. So, I would urge you not to make your understanding of the term as the universal meaning.

Please read what Naam Japnah means to me in many of my posts here where I have also quoted a verse from Jap to express my understanding:
Gaviei, Suniei, Mann Rakhiei Bhaoh.

Please stop assuming things and feel free to ask questions. That is what Sikhi is based on.

Thanks and Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: You asked Sherdil about the 9 dvaars. If you do not know what they are in a tangible manner according to Anand, then please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Kabir ji said that the others were calling him a mad man and saying he had gone insane, but he replied and showed that he was above all their nindyia and ustat, because he had become One and 'ik-mik' with the truth....'bigherio Kabira raam duhayee''............it didn't matter if they slated, praised or say that he's changed and gone off the rails.

oooooo you just reminded me of one of my most fav shabads...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG9gaGUWp2s

Its also my fav version ever of it!!!

Sorry to be off topic but it's so amazing I had to share!!!

 

[Sherdil]

Here is one. It appears on page 110 of Guru Granth Sahib.

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥
माझ महला ३ घरु १ ॥
Mājẖ mėhlā 3 gẖar 1.
Maajh, Third Mehl, First House:
ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
करमु होवै सतिगुरू मिलाए ॥
Karam hovai saṯgurū milā▫e.
By His Mercy, we meet the True Guru.
ਸੇਵਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ॥
सेवा सुरति सबदि चितु लाए ॥
Sevā suraṯ sabaḏ cẖiṯ lā▫e.
Center your awareness on seva-selfless service-and focus your consciousness on the Word of the Shabad.
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥
हउमै मारि सदा सुखु पाइआ माइआ मोहु चुकावणिआ ॥१॥
Ha▫umai mār saḏā sukẖ pā▫i▫ā mā▫i▫ā moh cẖukāvaṇi▫ā. ||1||
Subduing your ego, you shall find a lasting peace, and your emotional attachment to Maya will be dispelled. ||1||
ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣਿਆ ॥
हउ वारी जीउ वारी सतिगुर कै बलिहारणिआ ॥
Ha▫o vārī jī▫o vārī saṯgur kai balihārṇi▫ā.
I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, I am totally devoted to the True Guru.
ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ਹੋਆ ਜੀ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमती परगासु होआ जी अनदिनु हरि गुण गावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmaṯī pargās ho▫ā jī an▫ḏin har guṇ gāvaṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Through the Guru's Teachings, the Divine Light has dawned; I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, night and day. ||1||Pause||
ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਖੋਜੇ ਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਪਾਏ ॥
तनु मनु खोजे ता नाउ पाए ॥
Ŧan man kẖoje ṯā nā▫o pā▫e.
Search your body and mind, and find the Name.
ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਏ ॥
धावतु राखै ठाकि रहाए ॥
Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖai ṯẖāk rahā▫e.
Restrain your wandering mind, and keep it in check.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥
गुर की बाणी अनदिनु गावै सहजे भगति करावणिआ ॥२॥
Gur kī baṇī an▫ḏin gāvai sėhje bẖagaṯ karāvaṇi▫ā. ||2||
Night and day, sing the Songs of the Guru's Bani; worship the Lord with intuitive devotion. ||2||
ਇਸੁ ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਅਸੰਖਾ ॥
इसु काइआ अंदरि वसतु असंखा ॥
Is kā▫i▫ā anḏar vasaṯ asankẖā.
Within this body are countless objects.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਵੇਖਾ ॥
गुरमुखि साचु मिलै ता वेखा ॥
Gurmukẖ sācẖ milai ṯā vekẖā.
The Gurmukh attains Truth, and comes to see them.
ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਦਸਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥
नउ दरवाजे दसवै मुकता अनहद सबदु वजावणिआ ॥३॥
Na▫o ḏarvāje ḏasvai mukṯā anhaḏ sabaḏ vajāvaṇi▫ā. ||3||
Beyond the nine gates, the Tenth Gate is found, and liberation is obtained. The Unstruck Melody of the Shabad vibrates. ||3||
ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
सचा साहिबु सची नाई ॥
Sacẖā sāhib sacẖī nā▫ī.
True is the Master, and True is His Name.
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈ ॥
गुर परसादी मंनि वसाई ॥
Gur parsādī man vasā▫ī.
By Guru's Grace, He comes to dwell within the mind.
ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਰਹੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ਦਰਿ ਸਚੈ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥
अनदिनु सदा रहै रंगि राता दरि सचै सोझी पावणिआ ॥४॥
An▫ḏin saḏā rahai rang rāṯā ḏar sacẖai sojẖī pāvṇi▫ā. ||4||
Night and day, remain attuned to the Lord's Love forever, and you shall obtain understanding in the True Court. ||4||
ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
पाप पुंन की सार न जाणी ॥
Pāp punn kī sār na jāṇī.
Those who do not understand the nature of sin and virtue
ਦੂਜੈ ਲਾਗੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਣੀ ॥
दूजै लागी भरमि भुलाणी ॥
Ḏūjai lāgī bẖaram bẖulāṇī.
are attached to duality; they wander around deluded.
ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਅੰਧਾ ਮਗੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥
अगिआनी अंधा मगु न जाणै फिरि फिरि आवण जावणिआ ॥५॥
Agi▫ānī anḏẖā mag na jāṇai fir fir āvaṇ jāvaṇi▫ā. ||5||
The ignorant and blind people do not know the way; they come and go in reincarnation over and over again. ||5||
ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
गुर सेवा ते सदा सुखु पाइआ ॥
Gur sevā ṯe saḏā sukẖ pā▫i▫ā.
Serving the Guru, I have found eternal peace;
ਹਉਮੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
हउमै मेरा ठाकि रहाइआ ॥
Ha▫umai merā ṯẖāk rahā▫i▫ā.
my ego has been silenced and subdued.
ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਿਟਿਆ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ਖੁਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
गुर साखी मिटिआ अंधिआरा बजर कपाट खुलावणिआ ॥६॥
Gur sākẖī miti▫ā anḏẖi▫ārā bajar kapāt kẖulāvaṇi▫ā. ||6||
Through the Guru's Teachings, the darkness has been dispelled, and the heavy doors have been opened. ||6||
ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ॥
हउमै मारि मंनि वसाइआ ॥
Ha▫umai mār man vasā▫i▫ā.
Subduing my ego, I have enshrined the Lord within my mind.
ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਸਦਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
गुर चरणी सदा चितु लाइआ ॥
Gur cẖarṇī saḏā cẖiṯ lā▫i▫ā.
I focus my consciousness on the Guru's Feet forever.
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥
गुर किरपा ते मनु तनु निरमलु निरमल नामु धिआवणिआ ॥७॥
Gur kirpā ṯe man ṯan nirmal nirmal nām ḏẖi▫āvaṇi▫ā. ||7||
By Guru's Grace, my mind and body are immaculate and pure; I meditate on the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||7||
ਜੀਵਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਧੈ ਤਾਈ ॥
जीवणु मरणा सभु तुधै ताई ॥
Jīvaṇ marṇā sabẖ ṯuḏẖai ṯā▫ī.
From birth to death, everything is for You.
ਜਿਸੁ ਬਖਸੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
जिसु बखसे तिसु दे वडिआई ॥
Jis bakẖse ṯis ḏe vadi▫ā▫ī.
You bestow greatness upon those whom You have forgiven.
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਸਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣੁ ਸਵਾਰਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੧॥੨॥
नानक नामु धिआइ सदा तूं जमणु मरणु सवारणिआ ॥८॥१॥२॥
Nānak nām ḏẖi▫ā▫e saḏā ṯūʼn jamaṇ maraṇ savārṇi▫ā. ||8||1||2||
O Nanak, meditating forever on the Naam, you shall be blessed in both birth and death. ||8||1||2||

This is what I mean by clarity being the opening of the 10th gate. Clarity of who you are and what the essence of reality is, which comes from the Guru's teachings.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

arrrggghhhh then pls stop being so cryptic then! lol Its very hard to discern what you mean since you always answer in riddles which appear to be the answer to a previous post, but then when asked about it, you say that's not what it meant at all. It's confusing!



sorry...

Akasha ji,

There is nothing to apologise here for. We all interact in this wonderful forum in order to learn from each other. I am sure that is everyone's goal. I apologise in advance if I assumed this in a wrong manner for any member.

My only suggestion to you would be to ask me what I mean by the things I mention in my posts if you do not understand them rather than assuming and/or implying something that I never said. And lastly, if you stopped assuming and started asking, things would become much simpler. There is nothing cryptic about my posts. They are very straight forward.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Luckysingh]

Here is one. It appears on page 110 of Guru Granth Sahib.

This is what I mean by clarity being the opening of the 10th gate. Clarity of who you are and what the essence of reality is, which comes from the Guru's teachings.

Sherdil ji
At my current level of understanding, I see the opening of 10th gate as God Realisation. This realization as I understand it, comes not just by Guru's teachings... but by much effort and grace as well.
I wouldn't call this clarity.
I would call wisdom/gyan closer to clarity, and this starts to manifest much before God realization.

The above shabad can be discussed line for line/in detail in a separate thread if you wish, as I can see/feel a different and deeper spiritual message according to myself.

also,

PS: You asked Sherdil about the 9 dvaars. If you do not know what they are in a tangible manner according to Anand, then please do not hesitate to ask.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I don't know what you mean by ''according to anand''.............I have known them as 9 openings in physical sareer.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Assume under certain circumstances or as a result of how you are, there is a magic Derren Brown at work inside of your brain.<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/j25qV5RO-nU?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

In such a state what Akasha ji is saying is very plausible, what Luckysingh ji is saying is plausible and for people not allowing themselves to be in such circumstance, like Tejwant Singh ji, Harry Haller ji, such is not possible. But indeed both positions are defensible? Experiences while may be shared in limited or greater ways, require too much effort to be simply accepted. Lot of the debate in this thread and some others is simply about getting acceptance of individual experiences. While seeking acceptance may be good but it really is worthless. If the motive is to guide someone else to have an experience, so wonderful, that you want as many to have it, then be factual about the circumstance and triggers or the environment which facilitated the same. Guide as much in detail with as much love that you can muster for your fellow human beings. Then perhaps it will be more productive. Otherwise it is just jibberish and shadow dancing through rebuttals, denials, misunderstandings and much the same as perhaps 75% of this thread is about.

Let me share an experience and perhaps some will say no such thing exists.

I was standing near a tall mango tree. It was wild weather. I saw a lightning bolt (in the absence of a better word) floating nearby, no more than 10 feet from me. Shortly thereafter there was a big bang. A large branch of the mango tree got ripped open.

Have you seen a lightning bolt like this? How many say it was perhaps an illusion of lightening strike that was experienced or remembered in reverse?

Out of this do I want you,

1. to believe lightening bolts float like that? NO
2. That lightening bolts travel or float around like that? NO
3. Was it really a lightening bolt or something else? I think it was a lightening bolt but who knows!
4. and so on

Folks there is incredible amount within us and what surrounds us. Let us discover and help others discover if they want to.

Sorry the above is not Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji based but more personal.

For me the joy of internal music can be incredible because your mind would have provided the right equalizers and modifiers if you were so in tune to listen internally. Closing your eyes and listening when no chords are struck but the joy of being is there for me is "anhad naad". It does not always need to be so subliminal just as listening to a stream while the gentle wind rustles fallen tree leaves can be so enjoyable, and so on. It is everywhere if you are so inclined to find. I can find it everywhere, can you and/or are you willing to share :angryyoungkaur:eacesign:

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Enjoy the following if you really believe you are free thinker and getting unencumbered bliss or other experiences ( I just don't know how complex we all are!),

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/S-VEdzz3ixA?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

 

[Harry Haller]

Show me where Guru's made joke about others experiences? If i recall correctly Guru's where beyond all this. Afterall these are the expieriences they are describing in there book.

Well I am not a great lovers of sakhis, but two fairly accepted sakhis can prove my point, throwing water at your crops in Punjab and asking a Muslim to move his feet where God is not, both prove Guru Nanaks ability to use humour, jokes, to make a point. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is also full of wit and humour, I can provide quotes if you wish, but I find a lot of the caution on empty practices quite witty.

Harry ji, I can't talk for them, however I strive to be in the state in which Guru's and Bhagats were in. Because I've seen/experienced the beauty of it by reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you've told me before that you're not looking for that state and I respect that.

its not that I am not looking for that state, I have watched too many people chase it, like a drug, only never to find it and waste their lives. My own opinion is that state blesses you once the grace of Creator commands it by Hukam.

 

[Harry Haller]

And you replied
I have never experienced sex with a gnome, I am still happy to dismiss it lol

I think your reply implies very clearly that you would happily dismiss someone else's experience(s)

I have never had sex with a gnome, I do not wish to have sex with a gnome, if others wish to have sex with gnomes that is fine, I do not need to know about the sex to make up my mind, I dismiss it for myself, not others.

The people who are bonkers are the ones walking around thinking what they see, hear, touch, smell, taste is the ultimate truth...

then we are both bonkers in our own way

 

[Harry Haller]

I used to belong to a forum years ago, it had some of the most wierdest members, we discussed philosophy!

Some members were atheists, devil worshipers, a lot were on drugs, one was into blood drinking, satanism, etc etc, a real bunch of bloody wierdos!

What made the forum work was that each person contributed to a topic using their own life experiences and knowledge, no one mentioned their own background, just what their background had taught them.

The blood drinking satan worshiper hardly mentioned satan or blood, he just used his background to add to debates

The Vegan white witch also hardly mentioned veg or pagan rituals, again, she just used her background to add to debates,

I do not recall any issue or problem between us all, we all knew we were different, we all knew we had different thoughts and aspirations, the white witch would not even have considered pushing her way of life on the satanist, and vice versa,

The two did not have argument after argument debating which of them was right, why would they, it would be an argument that cannot be won.

we are ALL bonkers, and we are all different,

and Luckyji, your British, 'my bad' just doesnt suit you.....

 

[chazSingh]

Tejwant ji,

your reply to Akasha ji's does not answer my question at all...
you have no way of determining whether anyone you deem to be parroting is just having some drug like induced temporary high..NO WAY

Therefore you are making asumptions, the same thing you are accusink Akasha Ji for doing.


also you wrote to Akasha:
The metaphors used in Gurbani about this are the metaphors for us to learn about what doing good means. Just feeling good by oneself on his/her own is a selfish way and involves me-ism that Gurbani rejects vehemently.

What metaphors are you referring to? we need to know what these metaphors are otherwise such comments have no meaning to anyone.

Also when gurbani says "know thyself and you will know God"
such a clear and direct instruction from Waheguru Ji...do you think this is a selfish pursuit?

Guru Ji also says: I am a sacrifice to one who sees, and inspires others to see Him.

So even Guru Ji is a sacrifice to the one who Seek's and See's waheguru within himself, and who then inspires others to See as well?

So Again Ji, i ask you kindly, is this a Selfish Act?

It is comical again that comments about seeking God within you which may provide the most amazing joy of uncovering the TRUTH, is deemed Selfish when even Guru Ji says he is a SACRIFICE to the ones that do this...Comical

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant ji,

your reply to Akasha ji's does not answer my question at all...
you have no way of determining whether anyone you deem to be parroting is just having some drug like induced temporary high..NO WAY

Therefore you are making asumptions, the same thing you are accusink Akasha Ji for doing.

also you wrote to Akasha:
The metaphors used in Gurbani about this are the metaphors for us to learn about what doing good means. Just feeling good by oneself on his/her own is a selfish way and involves me-ism that Gurbani rejects vehemently.

What metaphors are you referring to? we need to know what these metaphors are otherwise such comments have no meaning to anyone.

Also when gurbani says "know thyself and you will know God"
such a clear and direct instruction from Waheguru Ji...do you think this is a selfish pursuit?

Guru Ji also says: I am a sacrifice to one who sees, and inspires others to see Him.

So even Guru Ji is a sacrifice to the one who Seek's and See's waheguru within himself, and who then inspires others to See as well?

So Again Ji, i ask you kindly, is this a Selfish Act?

It is comical again that comments about seeking God within you which may provide the most amazing joy of uncovering the TRUTH, is deemed Selfish when even Guru Ji says he is a SACRIFICE to the ones that do this...Comical

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I did not want to do this but as you insist, I will try my best.

But before I dare to endeavour in this, please tell me do you admit that you are a parrot of Gurbani which means are you into mechanical meaningless rituals?

If you consider, you are not a parrot of Gurbani, then there is no discussion to be held because I was talking about the parrots of Gurbani who parrot senselessly for hours and feel a transitory high like a drug addict would feel, which happens especially when one is in a Vaheguru chanting group, the way I was. It made me feel good in a me-ism manner for a while as it did to the most of the sangat there.

Then after sometime, it is back to zero or negative. The transitory high had left my body and mind. Mind you, I am sharing my personal experience here which btw is not only mine but many of the members felt the same as I did.

I mentioned about the same "High" while taking Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to the Darbar Sahib in the early mornings for a week while others felt differently. I mentioned that in my article written many years ago,"The Janeus we wear". The updated version can be also found on Sikhnet. But here is the one from SPN:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26995-the-janeus-we-wear.html

Please correct me if I am wrong, you have assumed on your own something that I never said that anyone is a parrot. Please check my posts again.

Yes, it is comical indeed when you assume things which are not said.

[/B]Also when gurbani says "know thyself and you will know God"
such a clear and direct instruction from Waheguru Ji...do you think this is a selfish pursuit?

Please give me the page number of the above verse so I can read the whole shabad which is dipped in Biblical pollen as the other verse you mentioned above.

But I have a question for you.

Is the word GOD used in the Abrahamic religions and others the same usage in Sikhi and as it is used translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?

If not, then please describe Ik Ong Kaar with your own understanding so I can learn where you are coming from.

I agree with you that the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is filled with the instructions and teachings how to know ourselves first. Our Gurus were psychologists before the term ever existed.

Please show me in any of my posts where I said something to the contrary to the above. How dare I?

You seem to be assuming a lot as some other members here.

Let's try to have a conversation in order to learn from each other rather than "what he/she said. What he/she assumed wrongly about what has been said etc. etc.

These are all futile discussions which will lead us no where but may create sour taste in our mouths if we keep on assuming rather than asking questions for what the original poster means, which Sikhi demands from us.

Guru Ji also says: I am a sacrifice to one who sees, and inspires others to see Him.

1.Would you be kind enough to give me the page number of the above so I can read the whole Shabad?

2. What does "I am a sacrifice" mean? Please explain it in a lay man terms. Does it involve beheading or some other kind of bad thing of the same aspect?

Is this used as a metaphor?

If yes, then can you please explain in what sense is it used?

What metaphors are you referring to? we need to know what these metaphors are otherwise such comments have no meaning to anyone.

Well, if you read Gurbani, you will find them on every page and in almost each verse.

I will post two verses from Jap as examples. after studying them please share with us if you see metaphors and what they mean to you in a personal manner.

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
ਸੋਚੈ = ਸੁਚਿ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ, ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ। ਸੋਚਿ = ਸੁਚਿ, ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ, ਸੁੱਚ। ਨ ਹੋਵਈ = ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਸੋਚੀ = ਮੈਂ ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਾਂ।
ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਲੱਖ ਵਾਰੀ (ਭੀ) (ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਲ ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਾਂ, (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ (ਮਨ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦੀ।

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
ਚੁਪੈ = ਚੁੱਪ ਕਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਨਾਲ। ਚੁਪ = ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ, ਮਨ ਦੀ ਚੁੱਪ, ਮਨ ਦਾ ਟਿਕਾਉ। ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ = ਮੈਂ ਲਾਈ ਰੱਖਾਂ। ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ = ਲਿਵ ਦੀ ਤਾਰ, ਲਿਵ ਦੀ ਡੋਰ, ਇਕ-ਤਾਰ ਸਮਾਧੀ।
ਜੇ ਮੈਂ (ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ) ਇਕ-ਤਾਰ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਲਾਈ ਰੱਖਾਂ; (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਚੁੱਪ ਕਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਨਾਲ ਮਨ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ।

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.
ਭੁਖ = ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ, ਲਾਲਚ। ਭੁਖਿਆ = ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਰਿਹਾਂ। ਨ ਉਤਰੀ = ਦੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਬੰਨਾ = ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਲਵਾਂ, ਸਾਂਭ ਲਵਾਂ। ਪੁਰੀ = ਲੋਕ, ਭਵਣ। ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ = ਸਾਰੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਭਾਰ। ਭਾਰ = ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਮੂਹ।
ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਭਵਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ ਦੇ ਢੇਰ (ਭੀ) ਸਾਂਭ ਲਵਾਂ, ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਰਿਹਾਂ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ।

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.
ਸਹਸ = ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ। ਸਿਆਣਪਾ = ਚਤੁਰਾਈਆਂ। ਹੋਹਿ = ਹੋਵਣ। ਇਕ = ਇਕ ਭੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ।
ਜੇ (ਮੇਰੇ ਵਿਚ) ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਤੇ ਲੱਖਾਂ ਚਤੁਰਾਈਆਂ ਹੋਵਣ, (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਇਕ ਭੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਸਾਥ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਂਦੀ।

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
ਕਿਵ = ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ। ਹੋਈਐ = ਹੋ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕੂੜੈ ਪਾਲਿ = ਕੂੜ ਦੀ ਪਾਲਿ, ਕੂੜ ਦੀ ਕੰਧ, ਕੂੜ ਦਾ ਪਰਦਾ। ਸਚਿਆਰਾ = (ਸਚ ਆਲਯ) ਸੱਚ ਦਾ ਘਰ, ਸੱਚ ਦੇ ਪਰਕਾਸ਼ ਹੋਣ ਲਈ ਯੋਗ।
(ਤਾਂ ਫਿਰ) ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਪਰਕਾਸ਼ ਹੋਣ ਲਈ ਯੋਗ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਬਣ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਸਾਡੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਦਾ) ਕੂੜ ਦਾ ਪਰਦਾ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਟੁੱਟ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
ਹੁਕਮਿ = ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ। ਰਜਾਈ = ਰਜ਼ਾ ਵਾਲਾ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ। ਨਾਲਿ = ਜੀਵ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ, ਧੁਰ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਜਦ ਤੋਂ ਜਗਤ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ।੧।
ਰਜ਼ਾ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਤੁਰਨਾ-(ਇਹੀ ਇਕ ਵਿਧੀ ਹੈ)। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਹ ਵਿਧੀ) ਧੁਰ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਜਦ ਤੋਂ ਜਗਤ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ, ਲਿਖੀ ਚਲੀ ਆ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ ॥੧॥
Page 1

Please pay attention on what is in bold.

The English translation is from Sant Singh Khalsa which is also Yogi Bhajan's translation. Please check the first verse. The Punjabi interpretation is from Prof. Sahib Singh and I happen to agree with the Punjabi version. Both these people give two totally different interpretations about the same verse which is not uncommon when our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is immersed in the Biblical thought process which has nothing to do with Sikhi.

Now the second one:

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥
Ŧirath nāvā je ṯis bẖāvā viṇ bẖāṇe kė nā▫e karī.
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?
ਤੀਰਥਿ = ਤੀਰਥ ਉੱਤੇ। ਨਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਾਂ। ਤਿਸੁ = ਉਸ ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ। ਭਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੱਗਾਂ। ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ = ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੱਗਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ, ਜੇ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਵਿਚ ਕਬੂਲ ਨਾ ਹੋਇਆ। ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ = ਨ੍ਹਾਇ ਕੇ ਮੈਂ ਕੀਹ ਕਰਾਂ?
ਮੈਂ ਤੀਰਥ ਉੱਤੇ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਤਦ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਾਂ ਜੇ ਇਉਂ ਕਰਨ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਕਰ ਸਕਾਂ, ਪਰ ਜੇ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ, ਤਾਂ ਮੈਂ (ਤੀਰਥ ਉੱਤੇ) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਕੀਹ ਖੱਟਾਂਗਾ?

ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥
Jeṯī siraṯẖ upā▫ī vekẖā viṇ karmā kė milai la▫ī.
I gaze upon all the created beings: without the karma of good actions, what are they given to receive?
ਜੇਤੀ = ਜਿਤਨੀ। ਸਿਰਠੀ = ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ, ਦੁਨੀਆ। ਉਪਾਈ = ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ। ਵੇਖਾ = ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ = ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮੇਹਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ; ਜਿਵੇਂ: 'ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ, ਜੇ ਬਹੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਧਾਵੈ'। (ਤਿਲੰਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧)। ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ = ਕੀਹ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ? ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ। ਕਿ ਲਈ = ਕੀਹ ਕੋਈ ਲੈ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ?
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਜਿਤਨੀ ਭੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, (ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ, ਕੋਈ ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੈ ਸਕਦਾ।

ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥
Maṯ vicẖ raṯan javāhar māṇik je ik gur kī sikẖ suṇī.
Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru's Teachings, even once.
ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ = (ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ) ਬੁੱਧ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਹੀ। ਮਾਣਿਕ = ਮੌਤੀ। ਇਕ ਸਿਖ = ਇਕ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ। ਸੁਣੀ = ਸੁਣੀਏ, ਸੁਣੀ ਜਾਏ।
ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਇਕ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਸੁਣ ਲਈ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਬੁੱਧ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਰਤਨ, ਜਵਾਹਰ ਤੇ ਮੌਤੀ (ਉਪਜ ਪੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਭਾਵ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ)।

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
xxx
(ਤਾਂ ਤੇ) ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! (ਮੇਰੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਇਹ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਹੈ ਕਿ) ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਇਹ ਸਮਝ ਦੇਹ,

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥
Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||6||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||6||
xxx
ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਾ ਵਿਸਰ ਜਾਏ, ਜੋ ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦਾਤਾਂ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ ॥੬॥
Page 2

If you like, you can share your own understanding about the above two verses.Please let me know if these verses are full of metaphors or not.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks for the interesting interaction.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[chazSingh]

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I did not want to do this but as you insist, I will try my best.

But before I dare to endeavour in this, please tell me do you admit that you are a parrot of Gurbani which means are you into mechanical meaningless rituals?

If you consider, you are not a parrot of Gurbani, then there is no discussion to be held because I was talking about the parrots of Gurbani who parrot senselessly for hours and feel a transitory high like a drug addict would feel, which happens especially when one is in a Vaheguru chanting group, the way I was. It made me feel good in a me-ism manner for a while as it did to the most of the sangat there.

Then after sometime, it is back to zero or negative. The transitory high had left my body and mind. Mind you, I am sharing my personal experience here which btw is not only mine but many of the members felt the same as I did.

I mentioned about the same "High" while taking Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to the Darbar Sahib in the early mornings for a week while others felt differently. I mentioned that in my article written many years ago,"The Janeus we wear". The updated version can be also found on Sikhnet. But here is the one from SPN:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26995-the-janeus-we-wear.html

Please correct me if I am wrong, you have assumed on your own something that I never said that anyone is a parrot. Please check my posts again.

Yes, it is comical indeed when you assume things which are not said.



Please give me the page number of the above verse so I can read the whole shabad which is dipped in Biblical pollen as the other verse you mentioned above.

But I have a question for you.

Is the word GOD used in the Abrahamic religions and others the same usage in Sikhi and as it is used translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?

If not, then please describe Ik Ong Kaar with your own understanding so I can learn where you are coming from.

I agree with you that the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru is filled with the instructions and teachings how to know ourselves first. Our Gurus were psychologists before the term ever existed.

Please show me in any of my posts where I said something to the contrary to the above. How dare I?

You seem to be assuming a lot as some other members here.

Let's try to have a conversation in order to learn from each other rather than "what he/she said. What he/she assumed wrongly about what has been said etc. etc.

These are all futile discussions which will lead us no where but may create sour taste in our mouths if we keep on assuming rather than asking questions for what the original poster means, which Sikhi demands from us.



1.Would you be kind enough to give me the page number of the above so I can read the whole Shabad?

2. What does "I am a sacrifice" mean? Please explain it in a lay man terms. Does it involve beheading or some other kind of bad thing of the same aspect?

Is this used as a metaphor?

If yes, then can you please explain in what sense is it used?



Well, if you read Gurbani, you will find them on every page and in almost each verse.

I will post two verses from Jap as examples. after studying them please share with us if you see metaphors and what they mean to you in a personal manner.

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
ਸੋਚੈ = ਸੁਚਿ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ, ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ। ਸੋਚਿ = ਸੁਚਿ, ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ, ਸੁੱਚ। ਨ ਹੋਵਈ = ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਸੋਚੀ = ਮੈਂ ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਾਂ।
ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਲੱਖ ਵਾਰੀ (ਭੀ) (ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਲ ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਾਂ, (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ (ਮਨ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦੀ।

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
ਚੁਪੈ = ਚੁੱਪ ਕਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਨਾਲ। ਚੁਪ = ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ, ਮਨ ਦੀ ਚੁੱਪ, ਮਨ ਦਾ ਟਿਕਾਉ। ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ = ਮੈਂ ਲਾਈ ਰੱਖਾਂ। ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ = ਲਿਵ ਦੀ ਤਾਰ, ਲਿਵ ਦੀ ਡੋਰ, ਇਕ-ਤਾਰ ਸਮਾਧੀ।
ਜੇ ਮੈਂ (ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ) ਇਕ-ਤਾਰ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਲਾਈ ਰੱਖਾਂ; (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਚੁੱਪ ਕਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਨਾਲ ਮਨ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ।

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.
ਭੁਖ = ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ, ਲਾਲਚ। ਭੁਖਿਆ = ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਰਿਹਾਂ। ਨ ਉਤਰੀ = ਦੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਬੰਨਾ = ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਲਵਾਂ, ਸਾਂਭ ਲਵਾਂ। ਪੁਰੀ = ਲੋਕ, ਭਵਣ। ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ = ਸਾਰੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਭਾਰ। ਭਾਰ = ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਮੂਹ।
ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਭਵਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ ਦੇ ਢੇਰ (ਭੀ) ਸਾਂਭ ਲਵਾਂ, ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਰਿਹਾਂ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ।

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.
ਸਹਸ = ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ। ਸਿਆਣਪਾ = ਚਤੁਰਾਈਆਂ। ਹੋਹਿ = ਹੋਵਣ। ਇਕ = ਇਕ ਭੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ।
ਜੇ (ਮੇਰੇ ਵਿਚ) ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਤੇ ਲੱਖਾਂ ਚਤੁਰਾਈਆਂ ਹੋਵਣ, (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਇਕ ਭੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਸਾਥ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਂਦੀ।

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
ਕਿਵ = ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ। ਹੋਈਐ = ਹੋ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕੂੜੈ ਪਾਲਿ = ਕੂੜ ਦੀ ਪਾਲਿ, ਕੂੜ ਦੀ ਕੰਧ, ਕੂੜ ਦਾ ਪਰਦਾ। ਸਚਿਆਰਾ = (ਸਚ ਆਲਯ) ਸੱਚ ਦਾ ਘਰ, ਸੱਚ ਦੇ ਪਰਕਾਸ਼ ਹੋਣ ਲਈ ਯੋਗ।
(ਤਾਂ ਫਿਰ) ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਪਰਕਾਸ਼ ਹੋਣ ਲਈ ਯੋਗ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਬਣ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ (ਅਤੇ ਸਾਡੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਦਾ) ਕੂੜ ਦਾ ਪਰਦਾ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਟੁੱਟ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
ਹੁਕਮਿ = ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ। ਰਜਾਈ = ਰਜ਼ਾ ਵਾਲਾ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ। ਨਾਲਿ = ਜੀਵ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ, ਧੁਰ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਜਦ ਤੋਂ ਜਗਤ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ।੧।
ਰਜ਼ਾ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਤੁਰਨਾ-(ਇਹੀ ਇਕ ਵਿਧੀ ਹੈ)। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਹ ਵਿਧੀ) ਧੁਰ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਜਦ ਤੋਂ ਜਗਤ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ, ਲਿਖੀ ਚਲੀ ਆ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ ॥੧॥
Page 1

Please pay attention on what is in bold.

The English translation is from Sant Singh Khalsa which is also Yogi Bhajan's translation. Please check the first verse. The Punjabi interpretation is from Prof. Sahib Singh and I happen to agree with the Punjabi version. Both these people give two totally different interpretations about the same verse which is not uncommon when our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is immersed in the Biblical thought process which has nothing to do with Sikhi.

Now the second one:

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥
Ŧirath nāvā je ṯis bẖāvā viṇ bẖāṇe kė nā▫e karī.
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?
ਤੀਰਥਿ = ਤੀਰਥ ਉੱਤੇ। ਨਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਾਂ। ਤਿਸੁ = ਉਸ ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ। ਭਾਵਾ = ਮੈਂ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੱਗਾਂ। ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ = ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੱਗਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ, ਜੇ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਵਿਚ ਕਬੂਲ ਨਾ ਹੋਇਆ। ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ = ਨ੍ਹਾਇ ਕੇ ਮੈਂ ਕੀਹ ਕਰਾਂ?
ਮੈਂ ਤੀਰਥ ਉੱਤੇ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਤਦ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਾਂ ਜੇ ਇਉਂ ਕਰਨ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਕਰ ਸਕਾਂ, ਪਰ ਜੇ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ, ਤਾਂ ਮੈਂ (ਤੀਰਥ ਉੱਤੇ) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਕੀਹ ਖੱਟਾਂਗਾ?

ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥
Jeṯī siraṯẖ upā▫ī vekẖā viṇ karmā kė milai la▫ī.
I gaze upon all the created beings: without the karma of good actions, what are they given to receive?
ਜੇਤੀ = ਜਿਤਨੀ। ਸਿਰਠੀ = ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ, ਦੁਨੀਆ। ਉਪਾਈ = ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ। ਵੇਖਾ = ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ = ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮੇਹਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ; ਜਿਵੇਂ: 'ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ, ਜੇ ਬਹੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਧਾਵੈ'। (ਤਿਲੰਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧)। ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ = ਕੀਹ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ? ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ। ਕਿ ਲਈ = ਕੀਹ ਕੋਈ ਲੈ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ?
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਜਿਤਨੀ ਭੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ, (ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ, ਕੋਈ ਕੁਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੈ ਸਕਦਾ।

ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥
Maṯ vicẖ raṯan javāhar māṇik je ik gur kī sikẖ suṇī.
Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru's Teachings, even once.
ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ = (ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ) ਬੁੱਧ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਹੀ। ਮਾਣਿਕ = ਮੌਤੀ। ਇਕ ਸਿਖ = ਇਕ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ। ਸੁਣੀ = ਸੁਣੀਏ, ਸੁਣੀ ਜਾਏ।
ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਇਕ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਸੁਣ ਲਈ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਬੁੱਧ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਰਤਨ, ਜਵਾਹਰ ਤੇ ਮੌਤੀ (ਉਪਜ ਪੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਭਾਵ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ)।

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
xxx
(ਤਾਂ ਤੇ) ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! (ਮੇਰੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਇਹ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਹੈ ਕਿ) ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਇਹ ਸਮਝ ਦੇਹ,

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥
Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||6||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||6||
xxx
ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਾ ਵਿਸਰ ਜਾਏ, ਜੋ ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦਾਤਾਂ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ ॥੬॥
Page 2

If you like, you can share your own understanding about the above two verses.Please let me know if these verses are not full of metaphors or not.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks for the interesting interaction.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

thanks you ji for the reply..

i was expecting some other example, but it is the same example you have used before
Do you have any other example? as you say every verse contains metaphors!

me personally...from my experience of 'mindfull' meditation, where i remain completely aware and alert and focused...

i can think (using intellect) over and over again, but i cannot even begin to fathom Waheguru Ji using thought...i can try, try until my head is going to explode...thinking will not allow me to experience Him.
He is beyond thought, and logic....but can be experienced...

By Remaining Silent, inner silence is not obtained...

from my experience...even though i am silent (very little thoughts, not speaking, not making any noise) there still isn't silence within me?

What is that sound i ask? where is it coming from? how is it created?
everything is silent, yet there is no silence....
do i put my faith in that sound? shall i ride along it's wave....i have no choice it has whisked me off my feet!

Wow...oh wow....wahe ...wondrous....woundrous this is... Wah...
Waheguru Waheguru, waheguru my mind utters in AWE of this...what else can i say...what words can i use, nothing can describe this wonder....

Waheguru...waheguru...waheguru...waheguru...

There is silence...yet there is no silence within...

Note...i am NOT saying i have experienced Waheguru...i am just skimming the surface...long way to go...5 thieves to overcome! mind is still far to corrupt!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Chaz ji,

Sorry to say, I am not a mind reader as you are. I have no idea what your were expecting from me. Could you please show me where I have given the same examples of the verses before? Refresh my memory if you do not mind.

And you still did not respond to any of my questions in the post for us to continue this interaction.

Please do that, then we shall continue.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[chazSingh]

Chaz ji,

Sorry to say, I am not a mind reader as you are. I have no idea what your were expecting from me. could you please show me where I gave examples of the verses before? Refresh my memory if you do not mind

And you still did not respond to any of my questions in the post for us to continue this interaction.

Please do that, then we shall continue.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

will do ji, tomorrow...must go to my tai chi class

 

[japjisahib04]

I'm sorry, but anhad naad is not the peaceful music you describe.
Like I say, if you want to transcend, then the shabad and naad can carry you.
You keep mixing and playing with words like experience, destination as above and in earlier post.
No one said music or naad or shabad was the destination !

Anyway, it seems that someone who just reads about anhad, seems to know more about it without any experience !............
Can a mechanic become so by just reading car manuals ?
Can a person learn to swim by reading a book ?
Can you become gurmukh by just reading gurbani ?

Yogis used to prepare “Churma” or bread and sat in one line and used to distribute it with the beat of drum to create sound. I am wondering despite guru sahib clear direction to them through pauree 28, 'ਭੁਗਤਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦਇਆ ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਾਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਅਵਰਾ ਸਾਦ ॥ Make “Divine Knowledge” as your food (Churma), and when one attains the traits of compassion through this knowledge, impact of that trait reflects through his speech, body language and action and guru sahib is referring to this as ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ and not the sound of drum as anhad naad