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General The original Concept of Akalpurakh - Dr. Gurbhagat Singh

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by bscheema, May 18, 2012.

  1. bscheema

    bscheema
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    The original Concept of Akalpurakh

    Dr. Gurbhagat Singh

    (Ex-Head, Department of English, Punjabi University, Patiala)

    Dasam Granth is the creation of Guru Gobind Singh. The controversy regarding its authorship is without substance. According to the accepted scholarly norms, if a written historical evidence regarding the authorship of a work is not available, then, it is the internal evidence and cultural memory that are taken into consideration. Since the "eternal departure" of Guru Gobind Singh, the Sikh memory, as mediated by the tradition, has always accepted the entire Granth as the writing of Guru Gobind Singh. The most vital internal evidence is of the meta-sign Akal Purakh (Timeless Person) that the Guru elaborates in an identical language in the entire Granth.

    The second major and consistent concern is to reinterpret and modify the Hindu myth regarding the avatars and battles between the gods and the demons.

    The Akal Purakh or God of Guru Gobind Singh is his model for reshaping human beings and the society that they need to grow. As manifested in the Guru’s writings, Akal Purakh is all forms (Sarab rupe), He has no caste (jati), no marked features (chenchakra), He is the king of kings (saha sultan), and greater than thousands of Indras. Using the Qur’ anic attributes and adjectives, the Guru calls Him as the Kindest (karimul karime). Employing the yogic and Buddhistic-tantric terms the Guru names Him as the Superyogi (jogeshvra) and jantra tantra. All these different forms of Akal Purakh appear to be "wonderful" yet they belong to the same enflaming energy, says the Guru.

    The originality and distinction of Akal Purakh is that He is not a unitive enclosure, meaning closed to His essence denying multiple manifestation mediated by historical and geographical specificities. In Shankara’s well known classic Brahmbhashya that is a classic of Vedanta and Hindu thought Brahma’s "unity" has been called as "the true existence while manifoldness is evolved out of wrong knowledge". Shankara further insists upon the unitarinism of Brahma by saying "it is impossible even within hundreds of years, even to bring about an effect which is different from its essence". Shankara’s most influential text that has formed the Hindu view of person and society does not encourage multiplicity of thought and being. In Qur’ an also it is pronounced inSura 37:4 "Verily, verily your God is One".

    Another very special feature of Akal Purakh is that He is sarab bhoge, which means He consummates multiply. The idea related to bhog can be traced back to the non-Aryan philosophy of Lokayata that prioritised the senses although the Guru in the Akal Ustat (In Praise of the Immortal) also says that Akal Purakh is without a body (deha). The Guru salutes Him because He manifests Himself in Arabic, Persian, Pahlavi, Pashto, Sanskrit, etc. He becomes Purana, and also Karim (blesser) and Qur’ an. He is sung by the Red Indians near San Francisco, the soft bodied (probably Europeans) and by those living around the Sindh Sagar.

    The point to be understood about the Akal Purakh, as elaborated by Guru Gobind Singh in Dasam Granth is that he is not a closed essence but a multidimensional Being manifesting through different languages and communitarian experiences located in diverse histories and geographies. It is obvious that He is the model for organising humans and society as mosaic of diversity. The Guru’s vision of God is different from the unitarian visions of Hinduism and Islam. The consummatory or dynamic Bodily aspect also distinguishes Him from the parthogenesis of Christianity that regards the Christ as outside the evolutionary or bodily processes. To the Guru, Akal Purakh is also "the highest love" and "the most beautiful song". The appropriate word that we can use to describe the Akal Purakh of Dasam Granth is polygenesis. It means the vision of God that takes shape through the perspectives of diverse communities, nations, people experiencing life in different situations.

    Another distinction of AkalPurakh is His form as the "self-ignited" and "enlightening Sword (Kharag) that acts for Justice. Through its vital action it unblocks the evolutionary process of the universe.

    A substantial part of Dasam Granth is devoted to narrate the lives of the avatars or incarnations. Instead of accepting them as autonomous gods, the Guru accepts them only as among the many possibilities of Akal Purakh’s body. The Guru rather presents them, as heroes who fought against evil and injustic. Declaring forthrightly, the Guru says that he does not worship Ganesh, Krishna or Bishan. They all act on the command of Akal Purakh and were not liberated from the illusions of world-cycle. Chandi has also been accepted only as the militant light of Akal Purakh to kill the demons. The most powerful Hindu mythology that was making people alienated worshippers of an abstract kind, has been reinterpreted by the Guru as stories about the fight between the just and the unjust. This was done to radicalize people’s consciousness and prepare them for a transformative role.

    No wonder, in accordance with his transformative intentions, the Guru wrote a very magnificent and all time revolutionary poem Shastramala (Rosary of Weapons). Sword, khanda, cannon, arrow etc., have been calledpirs or holy men in the Islamic idiom. More than that these weapons are to the Guru expressions of Akal Purakh. Using the metaphor of Krishana myth, the cannon has been called as the enemy of the "tiger" who kills the "deer" grazing on the banks of Jamuna, the beloved of Krishna. Metaphorically, the connon is the enemy of the then cruel Emperor imposing his inhuman hegemony on innocent people and thereby wrecking the beauty of life. Raising weapons to divinity and protection of life’s dynamic music, could not be accomplished in poetry even by the most lofty revolutionary movements of our time led by Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh and Castro.

    A very instructive section of the Granth is Chritropakhyan on which the Guru creates a dramatic narrative. A minister is narrating stories to a king. Most of the stories are about sexually distorted women who were having sexual relations with several men by cheating their husbands and lovers, but in this very section there are also some stories about brave women like Jodha Bai and the daughter of Bijay Singh who battled with a prince refusing to marry her. The section aims at educating the Guru’s prospective armed revolutionaries about making a distinction between the distorted and authentic man-woman relationships. The section ends with a meditation and prasie of Akal Purakh who creates the drama of different temporal orders.

    The over-hero of DasamGranth is Akal Purakh, no avatar or mythological goddess. Akal Purakh has been presented as a model to emulate and reorganise human beings and society. He is neither exculsively Hindu, nor Islamic, nor Buddhistic, nor Christian. No single vision or essence can describe Him. Many polarities and visions meet in Him. For that reason the language and metaphor that the Guru employs come from different sources. In our contemporary idiom it can be said that the Akal Purakh of Guru Gobind Singh is multidimensional and multipolar. His castelessness and multiplicity distinguish Him especially from the HinduVedanta and Islamic-Qur’ anic vision. The language and metaphor of Dasam Granth are polygenetic, made up of different traditions and sources.

    It is amazing to find the gathering of diverse cultural visions to describe and constitute the meta-sigm of AkalPurakh in Dasam Granth. Had Nietzsche read the Granth he would have called it as a writing done under the "pressure of abundance". Massive energy and multicultural vision form Akal Purakh’s Being that is multiplicity in dialogue. He is pure dynamism and Becoming simultaneously. The idea of Akal Purakh was revolutionary in the times of the Guru. It aimed at dismantling the unitarian models of Hindu Vedanta and Islam that were pushing a singular essence and vision to organise oneself and the society around.

    For its emphasis on multiplicity and multipolarity and how those can be in dialogue in Akal Purakh who can be emulated in one’s being and socio-political institutions, Dasam Granth is not only an historic contribution to Indian culture but also to the world of the new millennium struggling to evolve such vision and metaphors. The Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh, the army of saint-soldiers in other words, is envisioned as multicultural and multidimensional vibrating with poetry and the value of justice. The incredible breadth of vision of Dasam Granth will always exceed any uniperspectival effort to Highjack it
     
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  3. bscheema

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    well howcome this is not criticized
     
  4. Ishna

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    1. I personally actually enjoyed some parts of the article, it provided a point of view I haven't read before. Thanks for providing it.

    2. People are free to believe as they see fit. Many Sikhs hold Dasam Granth Sahib in high esteem close to or just as high as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Arguing about it is just going to cause a larger tear in the already fraying Sikh community fabric. There are bigger issues in the community to tackle first, like female feticide.

    3. The only thing I would point out is that regarding Chritropakhyan there are a couple of stories about the wayward sexuality of men too (because yes, they do actually have wayward sexuality too, but it seems us Kaurs don't need warning about it quite so much as the Singhs need warning about it).
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Ishna Ji..
    its NOT about morality, morals, lessons to be learnt etc etc..its all about the VULGAR LANGUAGE.
    You see Schools..even Primary ones do teach about reproduction and all that..BUT no school will use those really "illustrative" Films we can find on the Internet listed as XXX..to use in the classroom and then claim..OH its EDUCATIONAL....its natural..its OK...whatever.
    One DG Supporter in Canada actually did suggest that the DG Chiratrs are EDUCATIONAL and thats why the "author" wrote them so graphically/Vulgarity...so that there is nothing left to "imagination"....
    IF I want to teach my kids to .."Not sleep around"..is it necessary to describe the sex act, shaving of privates, getting intoxicated on bhnag and drugs, and the various positions etc..having sex with horses and donkeys..etc etc...IF I wnat my kids to NOT STEAL...do I have to teach them how to break locks, smash /disable Alarms, bang security guards on the head to knock them out..etc etc..??? Too far Fetched...GO READ the actual WORDS in DG..then come back here and write what you saw...

    And you a re right..theres NO POINT in visiting this trash repeatedly...garbage is garbage and will remain garbage..no matter how much "perfume" we throw on it...IT should BE BURIED and the KAUM begin RECONSTRUCTION..and move Forward.
     
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  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Gyaniji,

    Although I agree with your sentiments completely, I think Ishnaji has a valid point in that


    So although privately, I think the same, I have to confess that when I get drawn into a debate on the matter, rather than go round in circles for hours, I just smile and say 'whatever you think'

    I do think this is a dividing issue that should contained with good grace rather than risk fracturing us even more,
     
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  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Here is where the entire ROT in Sikhism begins..Root of all such is DG... from Khalsanews.org
    ਸਿੱਖੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਕਰਮਕਾਂਡਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਕੁਰੀਤੀਆਂ ਦਾ "ਜਨਮ ਦਾਤਾ", ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ, ਭਾਗ - ਪਹਿਲਾ
    -
    ਇੰਦਰਜੀਤ ਸਿੰਘ,ਕਾਨਪੁਰ
    [​IMG]ਅੱਜ ਇਕ ਵੀਰ ਨੇ ਫੇਸ ਬੁਕ 'ਤੇ ਇਸ ਲੇਖ ਨਾਲ ਲਗੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਪਾਈ । ਇਸ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੁਝ ਅਨਮਤ ਦੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਨੱਚਦੇ ਟੱਪਦੇ ਅਤੇ ਸ਼ੰਖ ਵਜਾਂਦੇ ਦਿਖਾਏ ਗਏ ਹਨ, ਅਤੇ ਇਸ 'ਤੇ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਤੁਕ ਵੀ ਗਲਤ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ।
    ਇਸ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਨਾਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ "ਸ਼ੰਖ" ਆਦਿ ਵਜਾਂਦਿਆ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ ਮੇਰਾ ਮੰਨ ਕਿਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਹੀ ਪਾਸੇ ਚਲਾ ਗਇਆ। ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੰਦਰਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ ਅਸੀਂ ਅਕਸਰ ਸ਼ੰਖ ਅਤੇ ਘੰਟਿਆਂ ਵਜਦੀਆਂ ਵੇਖਦੇ ਹਾਂ (ਵੈਸੇ ਤੇ ਹਜੂਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਤਖਤ ਤੇ ਵੀ ਘੰਟੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਘੜਿਆਲ ਵਜਾ ਕੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਦਿਰ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਦੇ ਦਿਤਾ ਗਇਆ ਹੈ)। ਇਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਕਿ ਸਿੱਖ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਿਯਾਦਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਘੰਟੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਘੜਿਆਲ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਹਜੂਰੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਜਾਣੇ ਮਨਾ ਹਨ। ਜਦੋਂ ਵੀ ਇਹ ਸ਼ੰਖ ਵਜਾਉਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਨਿਕਲੀ ਅਵਾਜ ਨੂੰ "ਸ਼ੰਖ ਨਾਦ" ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ।
    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੱਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਨੂੰ ਅਪਣੀ ਤਰਫ ਆਕਰਸ਼ਿਤ ਕਰਨ ਜਾਂ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਜਗਾਉਣ ਜਗਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਸ਼ੰਖ ਵਜਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਆਵਾਜ "ਸ਼ੰਖ ਨਾਦ" ਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਯੁੱਧ ਦਾ ਆਗਾਜ ਜਾਂ ਜਿੱਤ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਸ਼ੰਖ ਦਾ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਦੀ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਆਸਥਾ ਨਾਲ ਕਿਤੇ ਵੀ ਕੋਈ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਨਾਂ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਨਾਂ ਹੀ ਕਦੀ ਰਹਿਆ ਹੈ। ਹਾਂ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ "ਕਾਲੀ ਕਿਤਾਬ" ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਜਿਕਰ ਬਹੁਤ ਥਾਂ ਤੇ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਤੇ ਇਕ ਪੂਰਾ (ਅਪ) ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੀ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਸਾਡੀ ਰੋਜਾਨਾਂ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਜਾਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਵੀ ਜੋੜ ਦਿਤਾ ਗਇਆ ਹੈ।
    ਇਸ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ "ਸ਼ੰਖ ਵਜਾਉਣ" ਵਾਲਾ (ਅਪ) ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਾਡੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਅਣਗਹਿਲੀ ਅਤੇ ਸੁੱਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਚੇਤਨਾ ਨੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਦੀ ਇਸ ਸਾਜਿਸ਼ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਸਹਿਜੇ ਹੀ ਸਵੀਕਾਰ ਕਰ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ। ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਨਾਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਦੋਂ ਅਤੇ ਕਿਸਨੇ ਜੋੜਿਆ? ਇਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ, ਲੇਕਿਨ ਹਜੂਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਤੇ ਪਟਨਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਦੋ ਤਖਤਾਂ ਤੇ (ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣਚਵਾਦੀ ਤਾਕਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੱਥ ਵਿੱਚ ਹਨ ) ਅੱਜ ਵੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿਜ ਇਹ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ।

    ਸੰਖਨ* ਕੀ ਧੁਨ ਘੰਟਨ* ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਫੂਲਨ ਕੀ ਬਰਖਾ ਬਰਖਾਵੈਂ ॥
    ਆਰਤੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸੁਰ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਪੇਖ ਪੁਰੰਦਰ* ਕੇ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਵੈਂ ॥
    ਦਾਨਤਿ ਦੱਛਨ ਦੈ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਦੱਛਨ ਭਾਲ ਮੈ ਕੁੰਕਮ ਅੱਛਤ ਲਾਵੈਂ ॥
    ਹੋਤ ਕੁਲਾਹਲ* ਦੇਵ ਪੁਰੀ* ਮਿਲਿ ਦੇਵਨ ਕੇ ਕੁਲਿ* ਮੰਗਲ ਗਾਵੈਂ ॥੫੫॥
    ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਗਰੰਥ : ਪੰਨਾ ੧੮੯ ਪੰ. ੧੪

    *ਪੁਰੰਦਰ= ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ,*ਦੇਵ ਪੁਰੀ = ਇੰਦਰ ਦਾ ਰਾਜ , *ਦੇਵਨ ਕੇ ਕੁਲਿ = ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਪਰਿਵਾਰ , * ਸੰਖਨ=ਸ਼ੰਖ, ਘੁੱਗੂ, *ਘੰਟਨ = ਟੱਲ, ਘੰਟੀਆਂ, ਕੋਲਾਹਲ = ਸ਼ੋਰ, ਰੌਲਾ

    ਇਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਤੇ ਢੋਲ ਵਜਾ ਵਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੜ੍ਹਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਲੇਕਿਨ ਇਸ ਤੋ ਅਗੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ, ਇਹ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੀਏ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ । ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਜੇ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਪੂਰਵਲੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਪਿਛਲੀਆਂ ਲਾਈਂਨਾਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਪੜ੍ਹਨਗੇ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਭੇਦ ਖੁਲ ਜਾਵੇਗਾ ਕਿ ਜੋ (ਅਪ) ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਧੋਖਾ ਦੇ ਰਹੇ ਹਾਂ, ਅਤੇ ਇਹ ਦਰਸਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਤੁਕਾਂ "ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ" ਲਈ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਰਹੇ ਹਾਂ, ਇਹ ਆਰਤੀ ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਲਕਿ ਯੁਧ ਜਿਤ ਕੇ ਆਈ "ਦੁਰਗਾ" ਦੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਨੇ। ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਅਗਲੀਆਂ ਲਾਈਨਾਂ ਜੋ ਮੀਣਿਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਮਸੰਦਾ ਨੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਕੋਲੋਂ ਲੁਕੋ ਲਈਆਂ ਨੇ।

    ਇਹ ਹੀ ਚਾਲਕੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਵਾਦੀ ਮੀਣਿਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਮਸੰਦਾਂ ਨੇ, ਸੋ ਦਰ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ "ਕਬਿਉ ਬਾਚ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਚੌਪਈ" ਨੂੰ ਘਸੋੜਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਕੀਤੀ। ਉਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਚੌਪਈ ਜਿਸਦੀ ਪੌੜੀ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚ 377 ਤੋਂ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੂੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦਾ ਨੰਬਰ ਬਦਲ ਕੇ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੇ ਗੁਟਕਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ "ਇੱਕ" ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ, ਅਤੇ ਇਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ 378 ਨੂੰ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਟਕਿਆ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੌੜੀ 2 ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ। ਇਸ ਸਾਜਿਸ਼ ਦੇ ਪਿਛੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣਵਾਦੀ ਮੀਣਿਆ ਅਤੇ ਮਸੰਦਾਂ ਦਾ ਇਕੋ ਇਕ ਮਕਸਦ ਸੀ, ਕਿ ਇਸ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਿੱਖ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਾਂ ਮੰਨ ਲੈਣ, ਲੇਕਿਨ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਅਗੇ ਅਤੇ ਪਿਛੇ ਕੀ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਕਦੀ ਵੀ ਜਾਨਣ ਦੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਨਾ ਕਰਨ। ਜੇ ਚੌਪਈ ਦੀਆਂ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ 377, 378...379... ਨੂੰ ਬਦਲ ਕੇ 1-2-3------ ਨਾਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਤੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੇ ਮੰਨ ਵਿਚ ਸੁਭਾਵਕ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਿਆਂ ਇਹ ਜਰੂਰ ਆੳਣਾ ਸੀ, ਕਿ 375 374 373............301....ਅਤੇ ਪਹਿਲੀ ਪੌੜੀ ਤੇ ਕੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ? ਜੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਪੂਰਵਲੀਆਂ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਲਵੇਗਾ ਤੇ ਉਹ ਚੌਪਈ ਕਦੀ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੜ੍ਹੇਗਾ, ਇਹ ਉਹ ਮੀਣੇ ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਸਨ । ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਹ ਚੌਪਈ ਉਸ "ਤਰਿਤ੍ਰਯੌ ਪਾਖੀਯਾਨ" ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਅਸ਼ਲੀਲ ਕਵਿਤਾ ਦੇ 404 ਵੇਂ ਚਰਿਤਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਅਖੀਰਲੀਆਂ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਸਾਜਿਸ਼ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਹੀ ਸਾਡੇ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੇ ਗੁਟਕਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਚੌਪਈ ਦੀਆਂ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਨੰਬਰ ਬਦਲ ਦਿਤੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਇਥੌਂ ਤਕ ਕਿ ਸਾਡੀ ਸ਼੍ਰੌਮਣੀ ਕਮੇਟੀ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਇਹ ਕਾਲਾ ਕਾਰਨਾਮਾਂ, ਅਪਣੇ ਛਾਪੇ ਹੋਏ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੇ ਗੁਟਕਿਆ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ।

    ਕੁਝ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੀਏ ਇਹ ਅਕਸਰ ਇਹ ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਨੇ ਕੇ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ 6-7 ਸਾਲਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦਾ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਕਰਨਾਂ ਕਿਉ ਯਾਦ ਆ ਗਇਆ? ਮੈਂ ਇਸ ਸਵਾਲ ਦੇ ਜਵਾਬ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਸਵਾਲ ਇਨਾਂ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਅਪਣੇ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਆਗੂਆਂ ਕੋਲੋਂ ਪੁਛਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਕਿ ਜੇ ਇਹ ਚੌਪਈ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਹੈ (ਉਨਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ), ਤੇ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਬਦਲਣ ਅਤੇ ਉਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਛੇੜ ਛਾੜ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਅਧੀਕਾਰ ਇਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਸਨੇ ਦੇ ਦਿਤਾ? ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਤੇ ਇਕ ਅਖਰ ਦੀ ਛੇੜ ਛਾੜ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਘਰ ਦਾ ਦੋਖੀ ਮਨਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦਾ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਿਆ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਚਲੋ, 6-7 ਸਾ਼ਲਾਂ ਤੋ ਹੋਸ਼ ਤਾਂ ਆ ਗਈ ਹੈ (ਇਨਾਂ ਮੁਤਾਬਿਕ ਜਦ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਕਈ ਦਹਾਕੇ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਜਾਗਰੂਕਤਾ ਹੈ), ਚੌਪਈ ਨੂੰ "ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ" ਕਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਤੇ ਹਲੀ ਵੀ ਸੁੱਤੇ ਪਏ ਨੇ। ਉਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਵਿਕ੍ਰਤ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਰੱਖ ਦਿਤਾ ਗਇਆ ਅਤੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਵਿਕ੍ਰਤ (ਵਿਗੜੇ) ਪਾਠ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਉਹ, ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੇ ਗੁਟਕਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਨੇ। ਕੀ ਉਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਫਰਜ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੇ ਗਲਤ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਛਾਪਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਖਿਲਾਫ ਅਵਾਜ ਉਠਾਉਨ?

    ਵਿਸ਼ੇ ਤੋਂ ਨਾ ਭਟਕਦੇ ਹੋਏ, ਉਸ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਜਾਣ ਵਾਲੇ (ਅਪ) ਸ਼ਬਦਾ ਬਾਰੇ ਸੰਖੇਪ ਵਿਚ ਗਲ ਕਰ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ। ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਨਾਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਪਤਾ ਚਲ ਜਾਵੇ, ਕਿ ਉਹ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਲਕਿ "ਦੁਰਗਾ ਦੇਵੀ" ਦੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਨੇ। ਇਸ ਲਈ ਇਨਾਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਬਾਅਦ ਦੀਆਂ ਕੁੱਝ ਲਾਈਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਿਆਂ ਹੀ ਸਮਝ ਆ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਕਿ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਦੀ ਉਸਤੱਤ ਵਿਚ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਨ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਨੇ।

    ਸਭ ਸੂਰ ਸੰਘਾਰ ਦਏ ਤਿਹ ਖੇਤ ਮਹਾਂ ਬਰ ਬੰਡ ਪਰਾਕ੍ਰਮ ਕੈ ॥
    ਤਹ ਸ੍ਰਉਨਤ ਸਿੰਧ ਭਇਓ ਧਰਨੀ ਪਰਿ ਪੁੰਜ ਗਿਰੇ ਅਸਿ ਕੈ ਧਮ ਕੈ ॥
    ਜਗਮਾਤ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪ ਹਨੇ ਸੁਰ ਤਾਪ ਸੁ ਦਾਨਵ ਸੈਨ ਗਈ ਜਮ ਕੈ ॥

    ਪੰਨਾ 188,ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ

    ਅਰਥ : ਸਾਰੇ ਦਾਨਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਸ਼ਕਤੀਆਂ ਸਮੇਤ ਉਸ ਚੰਡੀ (ਦੁਰਗਾ) ਨੇ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਅਪਣਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਾਕਰਮ ਫੈਲਾ ਦਿਤਾ। ਇੱਨਾਂ ਖੂਨ ਧਰਤੀ ਤੇ ਫੈਲ ਗਇਆ, ਕਿ ਖੂਨ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਸਮੂੰਦਰ ਹੀ ਉਮੜ ਪਿਆ। ਪੂਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਦੀ ਮਾਤਾ (ਜਗਮਾਤਾ, ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਹੀਂ) ਨੇ ਅਪਣੀ ਤਾਕਤ ਨਾਲ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਦੁਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਾਂਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਦਾਨਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜੰਮ ਦੇ ਹਵਾਲੇ ਕਰ ਦਿਤਾ। ਸੁਰਪਤੀ (ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਰਾਜਾ ਇੰਦਰ) ਦਾ ਕਾਜ ਪੂਰਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਚੰਡਿਕਾ (ਦੁਰਗਾ) ਅਲੋਪ ਹੋ ਗਈ। ਹਾਥੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਝੂੰਡ ਤੇ ਬੈਠੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪ ਇਕ ਬਿਜਲੀ ਵਾਂਗ ਦਮਕ ਰਿਹਾ ਸੀ।

    ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥
    ਲੋਪ ਚੰਡਕਾ* ਹੋਇ ਗਈ ਸੁਰਪਤਿ* ਕਉ ਦੇ ਰਾਜ ॥
    ਦਾਨਵ ਮਾਰੇ ਅਭੇਖ ਕਰਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਾਜ ॥੫੩॥
    ਝਾਲਰ ਤਾਲ ਮ੍ਰਿਦੰਗ ਉਪੰਗ ਰਬਾਬ ਲੀਏ ਸੁਰ ਸਾਜ ਮਿਲਾਵੈਂ ॥........
    ਆਰਤੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸੁਰ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਪੇਖ ਪੁਰੰਦਰ* ਕੇ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਵੈਂ ॥
    ਪੰਨਾ 189 ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ
    ਚੰਡਕਾ*= ਚੰਡੀ, ਦੁਰਗਾ, ਸੁਰਪਤਿ* = ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਮੁੱਖੀ, ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ , ਪੁਰੰਦਰ* = ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ।

    ਅਰਥ: ਦੁਰਗਾ ਨੇ ਯੁਧ ਜਿਤਕੇ ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਦਾ ਰਾਜ ਵਾਪਸ ਦੁਆਇਆ ਅਤੇ ਆਪ ਅਲ਼ੋਪ ਹੋ ਗਈ । ਦੁਰਗਾ ਨੇ ਕਈ ਦਾਨਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦੀ ਭਲਾਈ ਕੀਤੀ। ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਦਾ ਰਾਜ ਮੁੜ ਵਾਪਸ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਣ ਤੇ ਵੱਡੇ ਵੱਡੇ ਮੁਨੀ ਅਤੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਖੁਸ਼ ਹੋ ਗਏ। ਉਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਯਗ ਕਰਕੇ, ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ। ਉਹ ਡੋਲਕੀ, ਮ੍ਰਦੰਗ ਅਤੇ ਰਬਾਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਸਾਜ ਵਜਾ ਵਾਜ ਕੇ ਇਕ ਸੁਰ ਨਾਲ (ਦੁਰਗਾ ਦੀ) ਇਹ ਆਰਤੀ ਉਤਾਰ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ। ਕਰੋੜਾਂ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਇਹ ਆਰਤੀ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ ਅਤੇ (ਪਰੰਦਰ) ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਦੇ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਰੂਪ ਨੂੰ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਹੀ ਖੂਸ਼ ਹੋ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ।

    ਵੀਰੋ, ਹੁਣ ਵੀ ਜੇ ਤੁਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਜਾਣਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਬੇਸ਼ਕ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਜਾਵੋ, ਲੇਕਿਨ ਇਕ ਗਲ ਯਾਦ ਰਖਿਉ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਨਾਲ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਅਪਣਾਂ ਨਾਤਾ ਜਰੂਰ ਤੋੜ ਲਵੋ। ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਦੋ ਬੇੜੀਆਂ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਖਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ। ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਨਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਖੰਡਨ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਹੀ ਉਹ ਬੋਹਿਥ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਇਕ "ਕਰਤਾਰ" ਤਕ ਲੈ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਅਤੇ ਇਹ "ਕੂੜ ਕਬਾੜ ਕਿਤਾਬ " ਦੁਰਗਾ ਦੀ ਉਸਤੱਤ ਹੈ, ਅਤੇ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਉਪਾਸਕ ਬਣਾਂ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਲੇਖ ਦਾ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਹੈ "ਸਿੱਖੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਕਰਮਕਾਂਡਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਕੂਰੀਤੀਆਂ ਦਾ "ਜਨਮ ਦਾਤਾ", ਅਖੌਤੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ। ਇਸ ਦੇ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਭਾਗ ਵਿੱਚ ਅਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੜ੍ਹੇ ਜਾਣ ਵਾਲੀ "ਦੁਰਗਾ ਉਸਤਤਿ" ਬਾਰੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣਕਾਰੀ ਦਿਤੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਅਸੀਂ ਅਗਿਆਨਤਾ ਵਸ਼ ਗਾਈ ਚਲੇ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਾਂ, ਬਿਨਾਂ ਵੇਖੇ, ਬਿਨਾਂ ਸਮਝੇ। ਸਿੱਖੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ "ਕੂੜ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ" ਨੇ ਹੋਰ ਕੀ ਕੀ ਕੂਰੀਤੀਆਂ ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਗੁਰੂ ਬਖਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਨਾਲ, ਇਨਾਂ ਕੁਰੀਤੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਜਿਕਰ ਇਸ ਲੇਖ ਲੜੀ ਦੇ ਅਗਲੇ ਭਾਗਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ ਕਰਾਂਗੇ।

     
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  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    THIS is also from DG...How to cure a certain disease...perform Oral on a Mare (female Horse).....morality ?? what kind ??

    see attachment....if anyone wants an english translation..its "available"....but be WARNED..its extremely VULGAR...
     
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  9. Ishna

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    Gyani ji I have read parts of Chritropakhyan and I agree it is vulgar language and as a female I am very offended that there are so many examples of lies and deceit by women and we are shown as having nothing better to do than plan traps for men because of our insatiable lusts for their members.

    But Harry ji summed up the position I feel I should take on the whole issue.

    However, this is not a thread about Chritropakhyan or the vulgarity contained within it.

    It is actually about how the rest of the Dasam Granth can be read with Akaal Purakh in mind. From my limited understanding, it is saying it uses stories of avatars and incarnations to express facets of Akaal Purakh. Whether it's endorsing the literal existence of these deities is unclear because it does say they are the 'body' of Akaal Purakh.

    Akaal Purakh is THE big stuff in the universe. Not just in Punjab, not just in India, but THE whole entire universe, including all of earth.

    That mean other ancient stories can be read with the same 'body of Akaal Purakh' mindset. Stories of Zeus and Heracles, or Thor, Odin and Frigg, or Isis and Osiris be read with the same understanding that they are the body of Akaal Purakh.

    At the risk of using a western philosophical term, I'm not sure anymore that Sikhi is monotheistic. I think this term actually damages understanding of Sikhi at a fundamental level.
     
    #8 Ishna, May 20, 2012
    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Sis,

    for Sikhi to work I feel it must be montheistic, otherwise you risk personalising Creator. Although I love the fact that Odin, Zeus, Krishna, et al are incarnations of Creator, I think as Sikhs we do not actually believe they existed. They are simply what other people personalise as Creator, and of course that must be respected, and I think within Sikhi, it is,but do Sikhs actually believe there were Gods in Olympus, for that matter, does anyone actually believe that, but then whether they did, or not, is largely irrelevant, the point is that when a Muslim talks of Allah, or a Christian of Jesus, I do not have to believe that such actually took place, but I can concede that this is their version of Creator as per their religion, and if they feel the need to personalise Creator, then that is their right. If someone leads a good life, and follows Hukam, but sees God as an elephant, I have no problem with that, I do not need to believe that such actually exists, but I can certainly share in the philosophy. The danger for us as Sikhs is actually accepting that God is an elephant, which in my view, goes against the first ten lines in the SGGSmundahug
     
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  11. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Harry bhaji

    I feel that calling Sikhi monotheistic is the first nail in it's Abrahamical coffin. It is a term more suited to a 'One God over there and me and the world over here' point of view.

    If you would humour me, I put forward that Sikhi is in fact a kind of Panentheism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

    I may come to regret that assertion.

    Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine exists (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism is differentiated from pantheism, which holds that the divine is not a distinct being or beings but is synonymous with the universe.[1]


    Simply put, in pantheism, the divine is the whole; however, in panentheism, the whole is in the divine. This means that the universe in the first formulation is practically the whole itself. In the second formulation, the universe and the divine are not ontologically equivalent. In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that God and the universe are coextensive, panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God.[2] Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism.[3]
    What do you think? And yes I'm tempted to delete the last line of the above snippit but I won't!

    The Panentheistic worldview makes more sense when trying to consider the Akaal Purakh idea in the initial post.
     
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  12. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    What's the problem with the last line ?

    The panantheistic view is probably very close.
    But what about physical and spiritual matter ?
    I sense it disregards that because it classes a God that is within and beyond the universe in terms of a presence.
    But we regard atma and parmatma or spiritual presences alongside physical.
    As sikhs we try to build on both- Miri-Piri-.

    Waheguru
     
  13. Ishna

    Ishna
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    The problem with the last line is people might say Sikhi is not panentheistic because a lot of Hindu thought is characterised by panentheism and Sikhi isn't Hinduism... I thought it might cause an argument.

    Lucky asked: But what about physical and spiritual matter ?

    The introduction from Wikipedia says:
    the divine exists ... [and] interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.

    To me that encompasses physical and spiritual. Akaal Purakh is indeed within and beyond matter (the universe) because Gurbani says It will continue to exist even when the universe It has created is destroyed.

    bscheema, as the thread starter, do you have any comments?
     
    #12 Ishna, May 21, 2012
    Last edited: May 21, 2012
  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Sis,

    I happen to agree with you,


    I think the difference in Sikhi is that we had flesh and blood human Gurus to guide and teach us, they were realistic believable human beings just like you and me. In Hinduism there are a myriad of characters that possibly never existed, I am sure they represent real people, but I find them more characters in a story designed to come to the same conclusions as Sikhi.

    Just like Sikhi has now become so distorted that people think the point is to seek enlightenment and mukti, when in my view, concentrating on just being a good person, with love in your heart, sharing what you have, and being a crutch for the needy is actually what Sikhi is about, through that you gain Mukti, and even then, as a side effect, not as a goal. Hinduism has had a longer time to veer away from what it possibly set out to achieve and what it has. Who is to say, if things go on the way they are that in another 2000 years, the depictions of the Gurus we are so familiar with become lost, and they end up being depicted with several arms/faces, animal heads, etc. Time is a funny thing, the only thing that stands the course of time is the truth, and I see very little of that in present day Sikhi and its leaders.
     
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  15. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    Harry ji

    I agree with most of what you wrote there only a point I would like to add

    Just like Sikhi has now become so distorted that people think the point is to seek enlightenment and mukti, when in my view, concentrating on just being a good person, with love in your heart, sharing what you have, and being a crutch for the needy is actually what Sikhi is about, through that you gain Mukti, and even then, as a side effect, not as a goal

    Some people maybe seeking just enlightenment from sikhi and that brings them peace, some people may only want mukhti everyone comes to god with there own needs. The real end total I guess is peace and what helps you achieve that. I guess god is so diverse that god caters for every need in everyway if you just want to be happy in the present moment then it gives advice on that if your seeking akal purakh then it gives advice on that it is the source of all guidance that is why it is the Guru Granth Sahib
     
  16. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Some people may be seeking enlightenment in the sense that their main and biggest goal or achievement is liberation or mukhti. For such, I think that is fine, it just depends how they go about it.
    What you say Harryji is the logical way of achieving this. I can't feel that I can say if it is distorted to go one way or the other, but the main thing is to try to achieve whats right and why the lord has put you here.

    On a day to day basis, the goal should be to do what is right and beneficial for all.
    Sikhi is a way of life and this way it helps you achieve that.
    It is difficult for someone to say that they are a good sikh and deserve enlightenment but on a day to day basis they don't go out of their way to help the needy, share or love.
    As a way of life, sikhi teaches us to be that way inclined in character, to do seva.

    A point I will make here is that I find some sikhs feel that seva is just helping with langar or similar at the gurdwara for a few hours a week. I've seen a few who will do this regularly and feel that their duty of seva is fulfilled and completed. But they will then go out of the gurdwara and leave and walk past a homeless and totally ignore him/her.-I have seen this a number of times. -To me, this is not seva, (like I say, to me only), but I don't like to judge, as I don't truly know what the thoughts are when the person walks past the homeless.

    Here in Vancouver some gurdwaras are far out for some people. There are limited bus services etc in some areas and I notice some elders travelling great lengths to be at the gurdwara. A few times I have noticed that these elders will have devoted hours of seva in the general maintenance and will humbly request a ride from general sangat to get back home especially when dark or late. It is quite sad, that I have seen them ask a number of members of general sangat and be given some excuse, especially the youngsters. This is even worse when the member declining has himself just been serving langar. Does this person feel that their duty is fulfilled and over, and it is someone elses turn ??

    We shouldn't allocate times and slots to WHEN we do seva, like many of us do. It should be like a service that we are always willing to offer no matter where or when.

    God is watching ALL the time, not just when we want him to.
    He can test us any time, but we shouldn't test him.
     
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  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Luckyji

    absolutely agree, one should be a Sikh 24/7
     
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  18. bscheema

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  19. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    Some more interesting points from the etymology of Universe:

    The word universe derives from the Old French word Univers, which in turn derives from the Latin word universum.[10] The Latin word was used by Cicero and later Latin authors in many of the same senses as the modern English word is used.[11] The Latin word derives from the poetic contraction Unvorsum — first used by Lucretius in Book IV (line 262) of his De rerum natura (On the Nature of Things) — which connects un, uni (the combining form of unus', or "one") with vorsum, versum (a noun made from the perfect passive participle of vertere, meaning "something rotated, rolled, changed").[11

    An alternative interpretation of unvorsum is "everything rotated as one" or "everything rotated by one". In this sense, it may be considered a translation of an earlier Greek word for the universe, περιφορά, (periforá, "circumambulation"), originally used to describe a course of a meal, the food being carried around the circle of dinner guests.[12] This Greek word refers to celestial spheres, an early Greek model of the universe. Regarding Plato's Metaphor of the sun, Aristotle suggests that the rotation of the sphere of fixed stars inspired by the prime mover, motivates, in turn, terrestrial change via the Sun. Careful astronomical and physical measurements (such as the Foucault pendulum) are required to prove the Earth rotates on its axis.

    A term for "universe" in ancient Greece was τὸ πᾶν (tò pán, The All, Pan (mythology)). Related terms were matter, (τὸ ὅλον, tò ólon, see also Hyle, lit. wood) and place (τὸ κενόν, tò kenón).[13][14] Other synonyms for the universe among the ancient Greek philosophers included κόσμος (cosmos) and φύσις (meaning Nature, from which we derive the word physics).[15] The same synonyms are found in Latin authors (totum, mundus, natura)[16] and survive in modern languages, e.g., the German words Das All, Weltall, and Natur for universe. The same synonyms are found in English, such as everything (as in the theory of everything), the cosmos (as in cosmology), the world (as in the many-worlds hypothesis), and Nature (as in natural laws or natural philosophy).[17]
     
  20. Ishna

    Ishna
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    bscheema, if that is your response to my asking you if you had comments on the thread (since you started it), I can't understand it because it's in Punjabi.

    Do you have any comments on the thread?
     
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  21. Kamala

    Kamala
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    Proof of the Brahm Devtas/Devis existing does exist in the Dasam Granth Sahib and in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I have no Idea why or where you guys think they don't exist.. I strongly reccomend you reading Chandi di Vaar, it talks about Mahishasura and Chandi (which is proof enough)! Also talks about Ganga and Kali! It also talks about Narsimha (aka Narsingh) who is a incarnation Devta avatar!

    ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ॥
    आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥
    Ākẖahi gopī ṯai govinḏ.
    The Gopis and Krishna speak.
    ਆਖਹਿ ਈਸਰ ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿਧ ॥
    आखहि ईसर आखहि सिध ॥
    Ākẖahi īsar ākẖahi siḏẖ.
    Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak.
    ਆਖਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਬੁਧ ॥
    आखहि केते कीते बुध ॥
    Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ.
    The many created Buddhas speak.
    ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥
    आखहि दानव आखहि देव ॥
    Ākẖahi ḏānav ākẖahi ḏev.
    The demons speak, the demi-gods speak.
    ਆਖਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵ ॥
    आखहि सुरि नर मुनि जन सेव ॥
    Ākẖahi sur nar mun jan sev.
    The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak.


    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਇੰਦੁ ॥
    सुणिऐ ईसरु बरमा इंदु ॥
    Suṇi▫ai īsar barmā inḏ.
    Listening-Shiva, Brahma and Indra.

    Also I am not the only one who knows they exist, some gurdwaras even keep pictures of the Brahm Devtas/avatars/Devis in the Gurdwara. Proof (Manikaran Sahib):

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/ManikaranGurdwara.JPG
     
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