Sikhism And Tattoos

[spnadmin]

You miss alot of things. Just like Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam. :yes:



Both of you accepted the definition of a ritual from a dictionary. Without actually looking at the definition. It's clear you accept a dictionary defining of ritual over Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and if this wasn't true none of you would have presented it for the discussion as a fact.



So it's true you accept a dictionary definition over Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji since you have not questioned the definition of a ritual from a dictionary and have questioned the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and Guru ji's Hukam. If you had questioned it then you would not have presented it in the hair discussion for you would have understood this definition is useless.



The above comments prove you have done so.

Singh ji

Then are you completely certain of your judgments? Are you completely convinced your conclusions are correct? Completely certain that Bhagat ji and possibly I have questioned the truth of Guruji? Is this what your mind tells you?

And all of this from a discussion about tattoos?

 

[Archived_Member4]

Bhagat ji

I may be getting to the bottom of my confusion. And it is one of those problems where logic plays a role and translations may or may not cloud the fundamentals of logic. Help me out here

There are 4 possible scenarios if we examine rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, or body piercing, etc. side-by-side with spiritual understanding. Here they are.

1. Person A engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.

2. Person B engages in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.

3. Person C does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc.) but does obtain spiritual understanding.

4. Person D does not engage in the above (rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc.) and does not obtain spiritual understanding.

If Person B and Person C obtain spiritual understanding, it does not matter that one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. and the other one did not. It makes no difference whatsoever.

If Person A and Person D do not obtain spiritual understanding, once again it does not matter whether one renounced rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved head, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc. and the other did not. The end result is the same.

Gurbani says over and over again: The only thing of true importance, the only thing that matters is obtaining spiritual understanding (enlightenment).

Renouncing rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of dearskins, body piercing, etc. does not affect enlightenment one way or the other.

So Kabeer is saying give up (renounce), renounce practices that accomplish nothing of true importance. He is saying: Substitute the "supreme essence of the Lord." Nowhere in Gurbani does it say that one must renounce these things. Kabeer is not saying this either. And Gurbani does not say that rituals or ritual baths, tattoos, shaved heads, wearing of deerskins, body piercing, etc get in the way of obtaining spiritual understanding.

I would love to respond to this post, but before I do. Please define spiritual understanding, so then I know what you mean by spiritual understanding.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

singh ji

what definition you want of spiritual understanding?



you sem to believe that multiple definitions exist for something

which i agree too.

please elaborate.

 

[Archived_Member4]

singh ji

what definition you want of spiritual understanding?



you sem to believe that multiple definitions exist for something

which i agree too.

please elaborate.

The definition that I want is the one that Aadji used when she wrote up her reply with the four possible scenarios post.

 

[spnadmin]

I would love to respond to this post, but before I do. Please define spiritual understanding, so then I know what you mean by spiritual understanding.

Singh ji

This is what Sri Guruji says about spiritual understanding,

Nanak, the Divine Light has dawned within my mind;
I have obtained the state of Nirvana (sggs 206).

Substitute "Divine Light" for spiritual understanding in the 4 scenarios that I outlined, and yet it makes no difference. One can renounce tattoos and everything else and still not find IT. One can be tattooed all over one's body, and nevertheless find IT. Renounce what is useless because it is useless. Fill your consciousness with simran and dhyanna and the tattoo question will begin to be unimportant. The jyote is all that maters, in my humble opinion.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

Then are you completely certain of your judgments? Are you completely convinced your conclusions are correct? Completely certain that Bhagat ji and possibly I have questioned the truth of Guruji? Is this what your mind tells you?

And all of this from a discussion about tattoos?

Aad ji,
One thing that you have been accused of is blindly accepting a dictionary's definition of a ritual. This has also been proven by you, by presenting the definition as a fact. To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said.

But Bhagat Singh ji did question the truth of Guru ji. For he has said the Amrit Sanskar is a ritual in the hair discussion. He continued on to say it's magical (in the sense of False) and the water when the Amrit Sanskar is complete is just simple water. By this he is saying the Banis read over the Amrit do nothing at all to the water,which is the Amrit. Bhagat Singh ji, not only questioned the truth of the Guru in this case Amrit Sanskar, but goes on to call Amrit Sanskar of the Guru to be false.

 

[BhagatSingh]

But Bhagat Singh ji did question the truth of Guru ji. For he has said the Amrit Sanskar is a ritual in the hair discussion. He continued on to say it's magical (in the sense of False) and the water when the Amrit Sanskar is complete is just simple water. By this he is saying the Banis read over the Amrit do nothing at all to the water,which is the Amrit. Bhagat Singh ji, not only questioned the truth of the Guru in this case Amrit Sanskar, but goes on to call Amrit Sanskar of the Guru to be false.

There he goes Aad ji, tryning to accuse me of things I never said or even thought of!

Singh ji, I never said Amrit is true or false. and FYI Guru ji said Naam is truth (satnam) not amrit or anything else.

 

[spnadmin]

Aad ji,
One thing that you have been accused of is blindly accepting a dictionary's definition of a ritual. This has also been proven by you, by presenting the definition as a fact. To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said.

But Bhagat Singh ji did question the truth of Guru ji. For he has said the Amrit Sanskar is a ritual in the hair discussion. He continued on to say it's magical (in the sense of False) and the water when the Amrit Sanskar is complete is just simple water. By this he is saying the Banis read over the Amrit do nothing at all to the water,which is the Amrit. Bhagat Singh ji, not only questioned the truth of the Guru in this case Amrit Sanskar, but goes on to call Amrit Sanskar of the Guru to be false.

Sounds to me singh ji as if you have made an accusation. Now I am pointing this out in good humor. You said above "To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said."

Let's analyze your sentence. You say that I have questioned the truth of Guruji and that I have done that to distort what you actually said. Are you saying that your words give you the high ground spiritually, and therefore you are entitled to accuse people? I thought we were here to learn.

You have still not told us where or how Guruji "defined" rituals. So where did Bhagat ji call Amrit Sanchar of the Guru to be false? He seems to be saying something very mystical about Amrit Sanchar. That is, simple water which is more than water remains water. It sounds as if one of the :}8-: 's has taken charge for the moment. When do we go to trial?

 

[Archived_Member4]

Sounds to me singh ji as if you have made an accusation. Now I am pointing this out in good humor. You said above "To add that I have accused you, Aad ji of questioning the truth of Guruji, is just a way to distort what I actaully said."

Let's analyze your sentence. You say that I have questioned the truth of Guruji and that I have done that to distort what you actually said. Are you saying that your words give you the high ground spiritually, and therefore you are entitled to accuse people? I thought we were here to learn.

You have still not told us where or how Guruji "defined" rituals. So where did Bhagat ji call Amrit Sanchar of the Guru to be false? He seems to be saying something very mystical about Amrit Sanchar. That is, simple water which is more than water remains water. It sounds as if one of the :}8-: 's has taken charge for the moment. When do we go to trial?

Aad ji not only did i accuse you of accepting a dictionary's definition blindy but YOU, YOURSELF PROVED YOU HAVE ACCEPTED IT BY POSTING IT AS A FACT FOR YOUR ARGUEMENT. ALL I HAD TO DO IS POINT IT OUT. If you call pointing something out high ground spirituality then pretty much everyone has high ground spirituality. Once again just pointed it out. Don't shot the messenger.

Here's the original post by Bhagat ji about Amrit Sanskar.

Guru Gobind Singh ji started this discipline he called "Khalsa". He intiated people into this discipline so they could fight oppression!
But Gur Gobind SIngh was smart, what he did was make the Amrit ceremony a ritual (yes a ritual)! This attracted quite a number of people as it seemed very magical to them (and still does). And all Guru Gobind Singh ji really had to do was say was that the water in the bowl would make one(who drinks it) fight millions! And voila!!! We have 21 vs 1000, 40 vs 10000, 2 vs 800 and so on! What power of this simple water and his rebelious discipline!!! It fascinating but it is not to be confused with Sikhism! Well, that's my take on it.

When do we go to trial?

The sarcasm coming from a mod and mocking reply. Breaking their own rules, but tell others to keep in line on the same rule. It's funny how some resort to humor when proven wrong. Great defense mechanism for a closed mind.

 

[Archived_Member4]

There he goes Aad ji, tryning to accuse me of things I never said or even thought of!

Singh ji, I never said Amrit is true or false. and FYI Guru ji said Naam is truth (satnam) not amrit or anything else.

Just read your post Bhagat Singh its clear you call it false indirectly.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Just read your post Bhagat Singh its clear you call it false indirectly.

What do you mean by false?

 

[Archived_Member_19]

this is now turning into a cat and mouse game

 

[spnadmin]

this is now turning into a cat and mouse game

I know -- but tell us, what are the other ways the discussion can go?

 

[Archived_Member4]

Or they just shave it off or even leave it alone, which results in dreadlocks.

Keeping it in dreadlocks is not keeping the hair clean and pure. A Sikh purify's the exterior and interior of the body. The Khalsa Panth is the exact definition of inner and outer purity.

Inwardly polluted, and outwardly pure. Those who are outwardly pure and yet polluted within, lose their lives in the gamble. They contract this
terrible disease of desire, and in their minds, they forget about dying. In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the
Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons. Says Nanak, those who forsake Truth and
cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. || 19 || Inwardly pure, and outwardly pure. Those who are outwardly pure
and also pure within, through the Guru, perform good deeds. Not even an iota of falsehood touches them; their hopes are
absorbed in the Truth. Those who earn the jewel of this human life, are the most excellent of merchants. Says Nanak, those
whose minds are pure, abide with the Guru forever. || 20 || ang 919

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

This is what Sri Guruji says about spiritual understanding,

Nanak, the Divine Light has dawned within my mind;
I have obtained the state of Nirvana (sggs 206).

Substitute "Divine Light" for spiritual understanding in the 4 scenarios that I outlined, and yet it makes no difference. One can renounce tattoos and everything else and still not find IT. One can be tattooed all over one's body, and nevertheless find IT. Renounce what is useless because it is useless. Fill your consciousness with simran and dhyanna and the tattoo question will begin to be unimportant. The jyote is all that maters, in my humble opinion.

Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter. But this is not true, for in Japji Sahib on ang 4 it clearly says one's actions affect the soul.

When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty, water can
wash away the dirt. When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine, soap can wash them clean. But when the intellect is
stained and polluted by sin, it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Name. Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;
actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul. You shall harvest what you plant. O Nanak, by the Hukam of
God.s Command, we come and go in reincarnation. || 20 || ang 4



GAUREE, KABEER JEE: Those who take their ritual baths in the evening and the morning are like the frogs in the
water. || 1 || When people do not love the Lord.s Name, they must all go to the Righteous Judge of Dharma. || 1 || Pause
|| Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams. || 2 || The wise men call
them four-footed creatures; the Holy find peace in this ocean of pain. || 3 || Says Kabeer, why do you perform so many
rituals? Renounce everything, and drink in the supreme essence of the Lord. || 4 || 5 || ang 324

GAUREE,
FIFTH MEHL: Save me, O My Father God. I am worthless and without virtue; all virtues are Yours. || 1 || Pause || The five
vicious thieves are assaulting my poor being; save me, O Savior Lord! They are tormenting and torturing me. I have come, seeking Your Sanctuary. || 1 || Trying all sorts of things, I have grown
weary, but still, they will not leave me alone. But I have heard that they can be rooted out, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company
of the Holy; and so I seek their Shelter. || 2 || In their Mercy, the Saints have met me, and from them, I have obtained
satisfaction. The Saints have given me the Mantra of the Fearless Lord, and now I practice the Word of the Guru.s Shabad. ||
3 || I have now conquered those terrible evil-doers, and my speech is now sweet and sublime. Says Nanak, the Divine Light
has dawned within my mind; I have obtained the state of Nirvaanaa. || 4 || 4 || 125 || ang 206

Through various rituals, one does not find release. Without
virtue, one is sent to the City of Death.
One will not have this world or the next; committing sinful mistakes, one comes to regret and repent in the end. He has neither
spiritual wisdom or meditation; neither Dharmic faith mor meditation. Without the Name, how can one be fearless? How can he
understand egotistical pride? I am so tired . how can I get there? This ocean has no bottom or end. I have no loving
companions, whom I can ask for help. O Nanak, crying out, .Beloved, Beloved., we are united with the Uniter. He who
separated me, unites me again; my love for the Guru is infinite. || 37 || ang 935

The shabads in bold and other two shabads say otherwise from what you have written in your 4 scenarios post and in post number 185. Person B engages in various rituals and does not find release/Divine light/spiritual understanding. Also he is without virtue for compassion is a virtue and Bhagat Kabir ji says on ang 324 “Those who love their bodies and try different looks, do not feel compassion, even in dreams.”

In both post you have said renounce what is useless/nothing of true importance and tattoos are of no importance.


Inwardly pure and Outwardly pure is a Sikhs path.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Keeping it in dreadlocks is not keeping the hair clean and pure. A Sikh purify's the exterior and interior of the body. The Khalsa Panth is the exact definition of inner and outer purity.

nonsense! dreadlocks can be kept clean by washing them, and as for pure, if you remember God you are pure otherwise you are impure (which has nothing to do with dreadlocks).

 

[spnadmin]

Singh ji

With all due respect -- I would really not want to post anymore in this thread -- except now you have said,

Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter.

How do you come to this conclusion? Of course actions affect one's soul! However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?

 

[Archived_Member4]

nonsense! dreadlocks can be kept clean by washing them, and as for pure, if you remember God you are pure otherwise you are impure (which has nothing to do with dreadlocks).

Just by washing the dreadlocks they do not become clean.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Singh ji

With all due respect -- I would really not want to post anymore in this thread -- except now you have said,

Aad ji, I have seen this over and over and read this over and over from people, that what one does with the exterior body really does not matter.

How do you come to this conclusion? Of course actions affect one's soul! However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?

Simply by talking to people about Sikhi and hearing it over and over again from the Sikhs.

However there are many people who have renounced all the rituals discussed here and also use Gurbani like a ritual. Reciting it without devotion or understanding. How do such actions improve the state of one's soul?

Listening.Shiva, Brahma
and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.​

Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 9 || Listening.truth, contentment and spiritual wisdom. Listening.take your
cleansing bath at the sixty-eight places of pilgrimage. Listening.reading and reciting, honor is obtained. Listening.intuitively​

grasp the essence of meditation. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss. Listening.pain and sin are erased. || 10 || ang 3

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The self-willed manmukh performs religious rituals, like
the unwanted bride decorating her body. Her Husband Lord does not come to her bed; day after day, she grows more and
more miserable. She does not attain the Mansion of His Presence; she does not find the door to His House. || 1 || O Siblings
of Destiny, meditate on the Naam with one-pointed mind. Remain united with the Society of the Saints; chant the Name of the​

Lord, and find peace. || 1 || Pause || ang 31

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice intensive meditation
and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be eliminated from within. You may perform religious rituals, and still never
obtain the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Through the Word of the Guru.s Shabad, remain dead while yet alive, and the Name​

of the Lord shall come to dwell within the mind. || 1 || ang 33

SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: The world is polluted with the filth of
egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. This filth of egotism cannot be washed
away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines. Performing all sorts of rituals, people are smeared with​

twice as much filth. This filth is not removed by studying. Go ahead, and ask the wise ones. || 1 || ang39

 

[BhagatSingh]

Just by washing the dreadlocks they do not become clean.

:}:
right... does anyone else see the absurdity in that statement?