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Sikhism and Sex

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Learner55, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. Learner55

    Learner55
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    WJKK WJKF,

    I am a 22 year old sardar, with a dari and phug. I have never drank or smoked. The reason I do not engage in these things, is because they are harmful to the user and to others.

    However, my question is about pre-marital sex. I have not engaged in it, however I do not see the problem in doing so if it is a) done smartly/safely b) does not become an obsession.

    WHY it is considered "wrong" ? Alcohol, drugs, and treating others poorly - all are against Sikhi, because they do do harm to either the user or others.

    But what does sex do?


    Thank you.
     
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Welcome Learner55 ji and your first post at spn.

    Sikhism does not de-link sex from procreation. Procreation is considered through "anand Karaj" or marriage and union of souls. After Anand Karaj Sikhism does not enter the bedroom, so to speak.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  4. Learner55

    Learner55
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    Thank you ji.

    So sex should only occur for the purpose of pro creation? Is this said in the Siri GGS ji?
     
  5. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Veer ji I did not say that. The Sikh Reht Maryada guides us on that.

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a cookbook/codebook of rules and regulations. It helps you become in consonance with creation.

    I suppose we all need a bit of time to rejig the right approach on what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji stands for and the right way to study what is contained therein. Wisdom develops and flows there after.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  6. Learner55

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    Thank you veer ji.

    I have thought about it, and talked with people I trust, and I am not going to engage in this act.

    Thank you again.
     
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  7. Archived_Member16

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    Premarital Sex

    Chastity or continence, is emphasized in Sikhism, because in the human body lies the divine presence and as such, the body has to be kept clean and perfect. Those things which harm the body or cause sickness and disease have to be scrupulously avoided. Sex is to be limited to one’s wife/husband. Pre-marital or extra-marital sex is forbidden to a Sikh. We all should consider opposite gender older to us as our father/mother, equal to us as a brother/sister, and younger than us as a son/daughter. Sikh should never entertain evil thoughts in the company of women. Marriage is a sacrament and the purpose thereof is companionship and help on the spiritual path, rather than sexual enjoyment. The marriage ideal is summed up in the maxim: ‘one soul in two bodies.’ Fidelity to one’s married partner is the essence of continence. In order to avoid evil thoughts, one should keep away from obscene books, nasty plays/films.
    The Guru says:

    “0 Lust! You consign people to hell and to the cycle of transmigration, You cheat all minds, influence the three worlds and destroy all contemplation and culture; Your pleasure is momentary, you make one fickle and poor and punish the high and the low; I have overcome your fear by associating with saintly persons and taking shelter with God!” (AG, 1358)

    source:
    http://aboutsikhs.com/beginners-introduction/sex-sexuality/premarital-sex/

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anger & Lust - SIKH RELIGION- video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KkJbjdnwwIk#t=113s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KkJbjdnwwIk

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lust Control

    ਰੇ ਮਨ ਗਹਿਲੇ ਬਾਵਲੇ ਮਾਣਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਰਲੀਆਂ ॥੫੫॥
    ray man gahilay baavlay maaneh ki-aa ralee-aaN. ||55||
    O my thoughtless and insane mind, why are you indulging in pleasures?
    ||55||(Sheikh Farid)


    LUST and ILLEGITIMATE SEX

    It is one of the greatest evils that tempts people away from God. It makes an individual weak-willed and unreliable. The normal sexual relationship of house-holders (a married couple) is not restricted in any way in Sikhism. But sex outside of marriage or sex forced against the will of ones partner is taboo, as it can cause unlimited sorrows.

    ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਕਾਮ ਗਹੇਲੀਏ ਕਿਆ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਾਹ ਲੁਡਾਇ ॥
    sun sun kaam gahaylee-ay ki-aa chaleh baah ludaa-ay.
    Listen, listen, Oh, soul-bride: you are overtaken by
    sexual desire-why do you walk like that, swinging your arms in joy?
    (Page 37, Line 18) Guru Amar Das)

    ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚਿਤਿ ॥
    ahinis kaam vi-aapi-aa vanjaari-aa mitraa anDhulay naam na chit.
    Day and night, you are engrossed in sexual desire,
    O my merchant friend, and your consciousness is blind to the Naam.
    (Guru Nanak Dev page 75 line 16)

    ਉਛਲਿਆ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਲ ਮਤਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਉ ਆਨਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਲਿ ਬਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੨॥
    uchhli-aa kaam kaal mat laagee ta-o aan sakat gal baaNDhi-aa.
    You are overflowing with sexual desire, and your intellect
    is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power.
    ||2|| (Bhagat Baini page 93 line 7)

    ਅਵਰ ਮਰਤ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਤੋਲੇ ਤਉ ਭਗ ਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਿਗੋਇਆ ॥੩॥
    avar marat maa-i-aa man tolay ta-o bhag mukh janam vigo-i-aa.
    When others die, you measure your own wealth in your mind;
    you waste your life in the pleasures of the mouth and sexual organs.
    ||3|| (Devotee Baini page 93 line 10)

    Your eyebrows are like a bow, from which the arrows of lust are
    coming out and striking us like the dagger
    Dasam Granth Page 703, Line 1

    VIRGINITY

    The loss of virginity can be viewed as a milestone to be proud of or as a failure to be ashamed of (particularly if a lack of self control was involved), depending on cultural perceptions. these perceptions were heavily influenced by perceived gender roles, such that for a male the association was more often with pride and for a female the association was more often with shame. But today women feel pride about this not in western culture but in other countries too.

    In Sikhism, The sexual activity must occur only between married individuals(Unde Control) for purpose of child. Before marriage it is said to be sin, as it is a pat of kaam(lust or sexual desire). If a girl/boy looses his virginity before marriage because to satisfy her/his needs then this is sin for both. This comes under sexual desire i.e kam(one of vices). If virginity looses through masturbation then it is also a sin as your thinkings must be wrong at that time. Virginity is important aspect and everyone must take care of it before marriage.

    ਜਾਂ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਤਾ ਚਾਉ ਵੀਵਾਹੀ ਤਾਂ ਮਾਮਲੇ ॥
    jaaN ku-aaree taa chaa-o veevaahee taaN maamlay
    When she is a virgin, she is full of desire; but when she is married, then her troubles begin.

    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਏਹੋ ਪਛੋਤਾਉ ਵਤਿ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਨ ਥੀਐ ॥੬੩॥
    fareedaa ayho pachhotaa-o vat ku-aaree na thee-ai. ||63||
    Fareed, she has this one regret, that she cannot be a virgin again. ||63||
    (Page 1381, Line 5/6 Sheikh Farid)

    ABOUT PURITY OF VIRGINITY

    ਖਿੰਥਾ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਡੰਡਾ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ॥
    khinthaa kaal ku-aaree kaa-i-aa jugat dandaa parteet.
    Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of
    virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick.
    Guru Nanak Dev(Page 6 Line 16)

    source:
    http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Lust_Control
     
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    #6 Archived_Member16, Nov 6, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2011
  8. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Here Guru sahib is advising yogies the technique of merging or to be in consoance with your creator is to keep ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ means to keep their mind pure is the technique instead of applying ash to their body. It has got nothing to do with physical body virginity.
    Regards
    Mohinder Singh Sahni
     
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  9. Learner55

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    Interesting.

    So, does the GGS Ji say anything about sex?
     
  10. Ambarsaria

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    Souljyot ji some comment,
    I very humbly and strongly disagree with the tone and dictates in the above.

    Let us remember that in Sikhism,

    • SIN is not a recognized concept
    • There is no concept of a SIN free life
    In Sikhism the so called five thieves (Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankar/Lust, Anger, Ego, Attachment, Pride) are not classified as one more wrong than another. Now show me a Sikh who has eliminated all and never exercises any one of these at least once a day, I will kiss his/her feet. If one were to classify any transgression in any of these as a sin, all of us would be so laden with sins on our back that living will not be possible.

    For a list of people with voluntary honest expression, who don't have total control of one or more of the above five (including Kam/Lust) so called transgressors (but classified as Sinners per Souljyot's jis post), see the following,

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/37375-scale-most-severe-vice-affects-you.html

    None of the sins are so wrong that you create a guilt feeling for life. This sin approach is the mechanism of controlling people and is extremely foreign no Sikhism for a reason. Sikhism does not classify Sikhs as sinners. Sikhism does not let the manipulators manage or exploit Sikhs because they have so called sinned. This is exploited by many a bad parchariks/Sant/Babeys. A very sad thing in the name of Sikhism.

    We are in-charge of managing (Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankar/Lust, Anger, Ego, Attachment, Pride) and no body has a right to judge other than one self. Of course we want to continue improve and find balance, any help sought and help given is OK.

    We all need to talk with honesty and less of double speak so that the younger generation listens and feels free to ask.

    Any comments or corrections appreciated.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Learner55 veer ji my answer I repeat to the following,
    . Nope.

    But I recognize that you may be asking others more than me. It is a transgression of Kam/Lust and it is a personal decision that you should make in terms of benefit, gain or loss. There is no Sin.
     
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    #9 Ambarsaria, Nov 6, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2011
  11. prakash.s.bagga

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    From Gurbani we can learn that our MUN or Mind should always be in a state of Sex with Naamu.The pleasure of Wordly sex is for a fraction of moments whereas Sex with Naamu can be a permanent and most sought state of mind .

    Prakash.S.bagga
     
  12. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    If one were to give oneself to Naam completely, how can one live as a householder as well?, if one is constantly comparing one with the other, Naam will always win, I do not think Sikhi is about complete submission to Naam, rather to live in the world and live and enjoy it, as well as in Naam
     
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  13. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    HARRY HALLER Ji,
    Although I agree with your views but the beauty of Gurbani is that it s messages are never bottleneck in wordly affairs but there is great significance of the state where ones Mind or Mun is always primarily focused on Naamu along woth your wordly affairs going on.

    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  14. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Prakash.s.bagga ji I am little confused based on your two posts in this thread and perhaps you can clarify.

    I understand that a grammatical relationship between us and the creator may be feminine and masculine respectively. I don't believe that simply translates into a sexual connotation. Just as a relationship between a female cat and yourself/myself/Harry Haller ji is not sex, just one is a female and the other(s) being male.

    I excerpt below from your posts.

    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:UseFELayout/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
    And the second below.
    I understand your second post but the first I consider wrong interpretation. I do believe that there cannot be conflict in Gurbani so both cannot be right. Primarily focused on Naamu /ਨਾਮੁ does not translate into sex.

    Appreciate your or others comments.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: I feel we are going little off-topic too, but that is not for me to decide.
     
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    #13 Ambarsaria, Nov 7, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2011
  15. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Veera Aslong as your intentions are honourable then I don't see a problem in it , when I was a young man I never asked anyones permission,apart from hers ofcourse!
     
  16. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    If I were single, I would drink a glass of milk instead.
     
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  17. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Veer Ji I would drink a glass of milk aswell .But seriously;

    The Code of conduct was written and was influenced by the culture and values of the Punjab,most girls abstain because of their family values ,not because it says so in the SRM.In a village all the girls are your sisters, so you would be a fool to mess with a girl who has so many brothers.Also it was an expectation of the day and even today that girls should remain virgins until married,perhaps this was in the minds of those who drafted the SRM ,as they could not have included a practice that would conflict with the values of the day.
     
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    #16 Scarlet Pimpernel, Nov 7, 2011
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  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    in my opinion its GLUTTONY..that is discouraged...gluttony of food..sex..pleasures of wealth..etc etc are ALL actively discouraged as anyone sunk in these cannot have time for the spiritual development or householders life !!
    Great Empires like Rome fell due to gluttony...Great devtas like Shiv Brahma etc also fell due to gluttony....
    Gurbani advises and ENCOURAGES..SEHAJ..."everything within LIMITS"..sort of lifestyle..little sleep..little food..little of everything...within LIMITS....

    Look at Nature...it sets the LIMITS (for Animals)...food limited by HUNGER...SEX limited by breeding season hormones...BUT for HUMANS..its our MIND that is supposed to set the self imposed LIMITS...eat too much and you need anti-gastric pills surgery and liposuction...etc etc...abortions and all that....due to over the limit behavior...Once MAN descends below these LIMITS..he becomes animal status...KARTOOT PASSU KI..MANUS ZAAT..a human doing animal acts...
     
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  19. ohhcuppycakee

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    Hey, you're the same guy from RF. xD
     
  20. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    Gurfateh Ji,

    Please take gossiping to private messaging. Off-topic posts are usually removed without notice. Thanks for adhering.

    Regards

    Aman
     
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  21. Tejwant Singh

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    Sp ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Yes, seriously. It is not about the SRM but about the message of value system given to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. It is not about the women being your sisters as you claim because they have many brothers who may beat you up. That is not a Sikh mentality nor a Sikh value either but a tribal one.

    There is a role of husband and wife in Sikhi. Premarital sex is not the thing that the Sikhi values teach or promote in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Tejwant Singh

    PS: As you claim to be the adherent of Veritas, I am still expecting an apology from you to Spnadmin ji and also clarifications about your false accusations towards me below. Otherwise, one is actually the adherent of Falsitas.

    Quote:
    <table width="" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> The Musketeers and the twenty always stick together,so must Moderators and Administrators,I would expect no less and it is no without honour, </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    1. What made you think or conclude that I am a Moderator or an Administrator or is it one more part of your imagination?

    Quote:
    <table width="" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> you did mention hypocrisy and myself in the same sentence and I'm a firm believer in reciprocity </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
    2. Where did I accuse you of the above?

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/judaism/37398-ask-a-rabbi-anything-6.html
     
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