Kala Afghana: Discussion Redux

[Tejwant Singh]

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Veer Tejwant Singh ji, gueu fateh !!
You yourself is a wise person and you know that their couldn't be any reference of Hemkunt in Guru Granth Sahab ji, Than why do you ask me this silly question.

I get bewildered by the Sikh scholars, historians or those who call themselves having knowledge of Sikhi, when they use immature and infantile words like SILLY as you have to show your disdain towards what I have asked. It shows that you are trying to prove that you are superior and happen to know more , hence your conclusion made my question SILLY in your thought process, which shows more about yourself than about my question.

Let's get to the facts. Following is your claim.

Pardon my ignorance but I am confused by your statement,"if you deny the authenticity of Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind Singh, certainly you challenge tha authenticity of Hemkunt Sahib also"

And following is my question regarding your claim:

Can you please elaborate it a bit from Gurmat point of view? Please keep in mind that our only benchmark is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Please show me in my post above where I asked you to give me the references from SGGS? I never did. Please read my question again and respond accordingly rather than with your infantile remarks.

I will discuss the other parts of your post after your response. In the meantime you can read my thoughts about Dasam Granth in the following excellent thread started by Randip Singh ji.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25416-my-views-on-dasam-granth.html


Thanks

Tejwant Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

well said Tejwant Ji.

my view is.....NO question is ever "silly"..this bares the mind of the jawab dean wallah...as too "superior"..well versed and beyond reproach...too superior to come down to a low level..THANK WAHEGURU JI thta our GURUS were not of this mindset at all...they came down to every level...
A Similar answer given in New York was..OH this person is BELOW MY STANDARD for debating...
and when another person came forward..then the answer was..its not in accordance with Akal takaht !! Didnt this man know of the AT earlier when he was talking about "standards"...and he has self attached title of SANT...I wonder Sant of what ??
Normally small kids will say such things/remarks...stupid..silly..besamjh...moorakh..
When given a reference from Sidh Ghosht..as to ASK questiosn and provide answers is Guru nanak Jis WAY FORWARD...leads to being labelled a Sidh ghost Sikh insinuating no knowledge about Gurmantar, Panj Piayars, Khandeh Batte dee pahul etc...not a kind view at all.
IF given a choice imho..many of the questions asked in Sidh Ghost would be called SILLY ?? Becasue the Questioners are OLD MEN..long beards wise learned..and Guru nanak ji is just a "BALAK" before them...i suppose these wise men would just dismiss the Balak as silly....but they DIDNT..showing they were indeed really wise...not pseudo wise !!....
SPN has all kinds of readers/posters..some dotn know anything...others know "everything"...and many in between...lets continue to PROVIDE THE ANSWERS...all the time to all the posters/readers/viistors...:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome: so that NOONE Feels lsighted..or made unwelcome..or made to look silly.....simply becasue he/she asked aquestion..:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome:

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
I wonder why you people always go in depth of the words, just to distract. See you called me a joker-Did i comment. No. I just laughed and went ahead. I remember the question by Tejwant singh ji was about Hemkunt though AGGs ji. How could i prove that? Could you-then come ahead and give him a suitable answer.
Certainly i am the foolest one. discussing between the intellectuals who are proud of their knowledge and try to humiliate others in the cover of Guru Granth Shaib ji and Sikhi. Guru Naanak Dev ji was himself Nirankaar and wass able to reach the peak of mountains, cross the oceans and move in deserts without any conveince or help. Guru Gorakh Nath or his Guru Machandar nath were wise able to judge this as no ordinary person could approach them and no 'thali' would have been served to Naanak if he had been an ordinary person like us.So they argued but with respect, not looking Naanak as a child.
And there is no question of superiority, if it had been i would have not become your admirer and a fan of you. Now just compare my views.
"Fal neevian rukhan nu lagde." Gyaniji i regard you as you are a wise person but dare to say if go through your psychology , I too find you a very proudy and harsh person, suffering from superior complex.
Pardon me for streight forwardness.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[spnadmin]

well said Tejwant Ji.

my view is.....NO question is ever "silly"..this bares the mind of the jawab dean wallah...as too "superior"..well versed and beyond reproach...too superior to come down to a low level..THANK WAHEGURU JI thta our GURUS were not of this mindset at all...they came down to every level...
A Similar answer given in New York was..OH this person is BELOW MY STANDARD for debating...
and when another person came forward..then the answer was..its not in accordance with Akal takaht !! Didnt this man know of the AT earlier when he was talking about "standards"...and he has self attached title of SANT...I wonder Sant of what ??
Normally small kids will say such things/remarks...stupid..silly..besamjh...moorakh..
When given a reference from Sidh Ghosht..as to ASK questiosn and provide answers is Guru nanak Jis WAY FORWARD...leads to being labelled a Sidh ghost Sikh insinuating no knowledge about Gurmantar, Panj Piayars, Khandeh Batte dee pahul etc...not a kind view at all.
IF given a choice imho..many of the questions asked in Sidh Ghost would be called SILLY ?? Becasue the Questioners are OLD MEN..long beards wise learned..and Guru nanak ji is just a "BALAK" before them...i suppose these wise men would just dismiss the Balak as silly....but they DIDNT..showing they were indeed really wise...not pseudo wise !!....
SPN has all kinds of readers/posters..some dotn know anything...others know "everything"...and many in between...lets continue to PROVIDE THE ANSWERS...all the time to all the posters/readers/viistors...:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome: so that NOONE Feels lsighted..or made unwelcome..or made to look silly.....simply becasue he/she asked aquestion..:welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome::welcome:

Gyani ji You know there is no teacher without a student, and that teachers learn from students' questions. That is the greatest thing that you as a teacher are called to give. And you do that. Out of questions come more questions. Really without questions we are left with ignorance -- no new knowledge will be called forth without questions. Humility shows when the teacher welcomes questions -- makes a teacher think and then think again.

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Veer Tejwant singh Ji, Guru Fateh !!
If i go through your article , which you mentioned, are the same my views. So what to discuss. Why Guru ji not added his Baani in AGGS is better known to him but as Randip Singh ji has described, seems suitable to guess. I too think the same way that the most Baani he naarated and written by court poets, was directly meant to arise the dead nation/qaum-Hindus. For the last 1000 years there had been no Hindu Raja or ruler in Hindustan. The tyrant moguls were molesting, disrespecting their women, lootin their wealth, cattles etc. and the people were helpless spectators, could do nothing to protect themselves.
So to awaken those dead men and to enter a new spirit of bravery into them, it was necessary to remind them the mythological stories of their Gods and ancestors to them in Bir ras. The outcome was as expected. The Sikh religion came in existence whose followers not only repulsed the attacks of Moguls but conquered their territory in Afghanistan and sent the message - to not dare an attack on Hindustan as we Sikhs can retaliate and have the capability to crush them in their own land.
Pakistan is still giving names of those Mogul invadors to its nuke weapons and missiles terrorize India but Sikhs aren't terrorized. That's the result of the spirit, Guruji entered into the souls of his Sikhs through Bir Ras baanis of Dasam Granth and other compositions by his court poets.
The blood in veins flows faster when one recite "Chandi di waar' and thus the Sikh becomes fearless of death and prepares himself to sacrifice for the nation/religion/qaum.
Whereas AGGS delivers the message of peace, devotion, spirituality, oneness of timeless God Waheguru beyond my explaination. You people better know.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[Inder singh]

HATEFUL COMMENTS REMOVED

Here is a video and sangat should note the facts.



YouTube - GURDWARA SIKH CULTURAL SOCIETY OF NEW YORK. 1 OF 6

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Please see ALL 6 Parts of the Video here

The Singh Sabha has posted one part of this same video here:

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Video/61

YouTube - GURDWARA SIKH CULTURAL SOCIETY OF NEW YORK. 1 OF 6

In the Background you can hear the DISRUPT SQUAD in action as usual...
Not in the least bothered by the SANGAT who is sitting patiently to LISTEN to the Talk, the Parbhandaks of the Gurdwara that arranged this Talk with full advance NOTICE, and made all the arrangements..and THE PRESENCE OF THE SGGS.
1. IF the argument is that this debate is against Hukmnama of AT..Fair enough...BUT then WHY accept the advance Notice and attend ?? Why not say this well before hand..no show..no debate..everyone is happy. Truth is hard to swallow...what they thought turned out different.....so have a shouting match and force a closure...

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Please watch all 6 Parts of this video here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV0n1AJ_liE&feature=related

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
I wonder why you people always go in depth of the words, just to distract. See you called me a joker-Did i comment. No. I just laughed and went ahead. I remember the question by Tejwant singh ji was about Hemkunt though AGGs ji. How could i prove that? Could you-then come ahead and give him a suitable answer.
Certainly i am the foolest one. discussing between the intellectuals who are proud of their knowledge and try to humiliate others in the cover of Guru Granth Shaib ji and Sikhi. Guru Naanak Dev ji was himself Nirankaar and wass able to reach the peak of mountains, cross the oceans and move in deserts without any conveince or help. Guru Gorakh Nath or his Guru Machandar nath were wise able to judge this as no ordinary person could approach them and no 'thali' would have been served to Naanak if he had been an ordinary person like us.So they argued but with respect, not looking Naanak as a child.
And there is no question of superiority, if it had been i would have not become your admirer and a fan of you. Now just compare my views.
"Fal neevian rukhan nu lagde." Gyaniji i regard you as you are a wise person but dare to say if go through your psychology , I too find you a very proudy and harsh person, suffering from superior complex.
Pardon me for streight forwardness.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

Ajmer Singh ji,
Gurfateh.

Baseless accusation. ( This is NOT called "Straightforwardness..by any standard..)

Language is WORDS...GURBANI is "WORDS"....Jaissee mein aweh KHASAM KI BANI..tessrrra kareen GYAN ve Lalo..says Guru nanak Ji Sahib..

( i am NOT saying what i wrote is gurbani..heaven forbid but you may think i am saying that..so i beg forgiveness up front..)

WORDS have DEPTH...they have NUANCES...they have CHARACTER..they have PERSONALITY....They have COLOUR...they have SO MUCH MORE..than just......ALPHABETS strung together... IF they were just alphabets strung together..a monkey could sit at a keyboard/typewriter.... and write a Shakespeare Play...or sit at a Keyboard and produce a MOzart Symphony so easily...BUT it doesnt happen that way...
SO YES.."words" have to be read...thoroughly....GURBANI has to be READ THOROUGHLY...VICHARRED..THOROUGHLY....its when we read superficially...skim the surface and think we have reached OCEAN FLOOR DEPTH....that we fail ourselves..and others who read our "words"... IF the GURBANI were that simple..then we wouldnt ahve so many TEEKAS..teekakaars..kathwachaks..all struggling to EXPLAIN. THUS..YES i NEVER read anyones words superficially..I alwasy GO IN DEEP...and try to look at the writer....what he means..what he is trying to tell me...And IF you call that .."trying to DISTRACT..I DONT KNOW what to say...!! honest !! Are you telling me to just skim over your posts..not read thoroughly ??..I am reaching that point..honest...without any prompting...

2. AN "Actor"...acts...
A "COMEDIAN"...tells jokes...acts funny...
A "Stand up comedian" stands on stage and tells JOKES..he is called comedian !!
a "Joker" is one who tells JOKES...writes JOKES...
Please DONT try and read too much into words that may be out of depth...a JOKER is just that.. someone who told a JOKE..and thats what you did...YOu told us all a joke .
I meant no offense...so you shouldnt see it any other way...why ?? IN Fact if a person tells a JOKE..and NO BODY LAUGHS...THAT is a FLAW.....the joke fell flat/not funny or soemthing like that....so its perfectly natural to LAUGH at a JOKE...i wouldnt expect otherwise...

2. You claim to be "foolest"..that is HUMILITY..i appreciate it...
BUT then you go down and accuse me again of being .."proudy..etc..." you became JUDGE jury and EXECUTED me. THANKS.

 

[spnadmin]

Veer Tejwant singh Ji, Guru Fateh !!
If i go through your article , which you mentioned, are the same my views. So what to discuss. Why Guru ji not added his Baani in AGGS is better known to him but as Randip Singh ji has described, seems suitable to guess. I too think the same way that the most Baani he naarated and written by court poets, was directly meant to arise the dead nation/qaum-Hindus. For the last 1000 years there had been no Hindu Raja or ruler in Hindustan. The tyrant moguls were molesting, disrespecting their women, lootin their wealth, cattles etc. and the people were helpless spectators, could do nothing to protect themselves.
So to awaken those dead men and to enter a new spirit of bravery into them, it was necessary to remind them the mythological stories of their Gods and ancestors to them in Bir ras. The outcome was as expected. The Sikh religion came in existence whose followers not only repulsed the attacks of Moguls but conquered their territory in Afghanistan and sent the message - to not dare an attack on Hindustan as we Sikhs can retaliate and have the capability to crush them in their own land.
Pakistan is still giving names of those Mogul invadors to its nuke weapons and missiles terrorize India but Sikhs aren't terrorized. That's the result of the spirit, Guruji entered into the souls of his Sikhs through Bir Ras baanis of Dasam Granth and other compositions by his court poets.
The blood in veins flows faster when one recite "Chandi di waar' and thus the Sikh becomes fearless of death and prepares himself to sacrifice for the nation/religion/qaum.
Whereas AGGS delivers the message of peace, devotion, spirituality, oneness of timeless God Waheguru beyond my explaination. You people better know.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

Ajmer ji

Your comments are very interesting and raise my interest because in so many words you are describing a contrast that some say defines Sikhism. It is the image of the temple and the fortress. This notion was coined by scholars who trying to describe how some Guru's and some Sikhs fall into one camp or model of thinking about the faith "the temple" and others fall into another camp or model "the fortress" The "temple" fold are the devotional and meditative types who adhere to the spiritual guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The "fortress" fold are the active and dynamic ones who find support in Dasam Granth. Anyway that is how I understand the temple and the fortress.

Look at your statement. Here is the fortress "That's the result of the spirit, Guruji entered into the souls of his Sikhs through Bir Ras baanis of Dasam Granth and other compositions by his court poets.
The blood in veins flows faster when one recite "Chandi di waar' and thus the Sikh becomes fearless of death and prepares himself to sacrifice for the nation/religion/qaum."

Here is the temple. "Whereas AGGS delivers the message of peace, devotion, spirituality, oneness of timeless God Waheguru beyond my explaination. You people better know."

Here is the problem. All of the Gurus - in an unbroken succession continuing to the 11th and final Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, speak with 1 voice and are speaking from 1 light Jyot.

The temple and the fortress is a difficult image because it creates the idea that there is some kind of divided mentality among Gurus. All but one on the temple side (1-9 and 11). Then you have number 10 on the fortress side. On one side are the contemplative, mystical, spiritual ones, and on the other side is the fearless and legendary warrior. This is a wrong-headed kind of image. It does great disservice to the Nanaks 1-9 who were able to inspire a strong sense of moral outrage in the real-world battles and day-to-day struggles against the obscenities of the Mughal and Brahmin overlords. It does a disservice to Guru Hargobind who coined the idea of 2 swords, one for miri and one for piri, and an undivided moral consciousness. Most of all it undermines completely the intellectual, spiritual, and ethical majesty of Sri Guru Gobind Singh who was more than an epic hero on the battlefield, but was one of the most outstanding religious scholars of his time. It may be he was the Most outstanding spiritual leaders in centuries. There is also disservice to Nanak 11, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, within/where there is no division of consciousness. All of our Gurus speak with one voice through Granth Sahib. The temple and the fortress are one and the same. Apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ajmer ji

Your comments are very interesting and raise my interest because in so many words you are describing a contrast that some say defines Sikhism. It is the image of the temple and the fortress. This notion was coined by scholars who trying to describe how some Guru's and some Sikhs fall into one camp or model of thinking about the faith "the temple" and others fall into another camp or model "the fortress" The "temple" fold are the devotional and meditative types who adhere to the spiritual guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The "fortress" fold are the active and dynamic ones who find support in Dasam Granth. Anyway that is how I understand the temple and the fortress.

Look at your statement. Here is the fortress "That's the result of the spirit, Guruji entered into the souls of his Sikhs through Bir Ras baanis of Dasam Granth and other compositions by his court poets.
The blood in veins flows faster when one recite "Chandi di waar' and thus the Sikh becomes fearless of death and prepares himself to sacrifice for the nation/religion/qaum."

Here is the temple. "Whereas AGGS delivers the message of peace, devotion, spirituality, oneness of timeless God Waheguru beyond my explaination. You people better know."

Here is the problem. All of the Gurus - in an unbroken succession continuing to the 11th and final Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, speak with 1 voice and are speaking from 1 light Jyot.

The temple and the fortress is a difficult image because it creates the idea that there is some kind of divided mentality among Gurus. All but one on the temple side (1-9 and 11). Then you have number 10 on the fortress side. On one side are the contemplative, mystical, spiritual ones, and on the other side is the fearless and legendary warrior. This is a wrong-headed kind of image. It does great disservice to the Nanaks 1-9 who were able to inspire a strong sense of moral outrage in the real-world battles and day-to-day struggles against the obscenities of the Mughal and Brahmin overlords. It does a disservice to Guru Hargobind who coined the idea of 2 swords, one for miri and one for piri, and an undivided moral consciousness. Most of all it undermines completely the intellectual, spiritual, and ethical majesty of Sri Guru Gobind Singh who was more than an epic hero on the battlefield, but was one of the most outstanding religious scholars of his time. It may be he was the Most outstanding spiritual leaders in centuries. There is also disservice to Nanak 11, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, within/where there is no division of consciousness. All of our Gurus speak with one voice through Granth Sahib. The temple and the fortress are one and the same. Apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have explained the above in very beautiful and nitid manner. No SIKH SCHOLAR of any calibre would have explained it better.

So please accept my gratitude and heartfelt thanks.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You never responded to my question rather mentioned the following to Gyani ji.

Gyani ji, Guru Fateh !!
I remember the question by Tejwant singh ji was about Hemkunt though AGGs ji. How could i prove that? Could you-then come ahead and give him a suitable answer.

Ajmer Singh ji, I am sorry to say that it is a false statement by you. I never asked you to prove Hemkunt through SGGS.

All of us who interact in this forum are TRUTHSEEKERS. As Sikhs that is our duty. Please re -read what I wrote and respond truthfully accordingly.

Thanks and waiting for the response.

Tejwant Singh

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Veer waheguru seekar ji, Guru fateh !!
You have beautifully defined the stages of devotion and legend warriors, no doubt contrast is there though while writing i was also confused but i meant to say thatGuru Gobind Singh ji deleberately did not add his Baani in AGGS. He diffrentiated in both Granths. (1)AGGS;-- in which the Baani of devotion, peace, spiritruality, praising Akal Purakh -the timeless God Waheguru etc. is there by 9 masters /Gurus of Sikh religion whereas by the sacrifices of Gurus and unending Mogul tortures to the devotes, he had made up his mind to awake the dead qaum to a warrior class. "Sawaa lakh se ek laraoon Tabhey Gobind Singh naam kahaoon ". For to bring the changes, to enter a new life in dead qaum/nation he decided to recite the baani with Bir ras which ultimately proved a right decision. His all the baani along the baani og his courtpoets written and approved with his consent was composed in Dasam Granth. It was compiled for Khalsa to keep in high spirit always. So he might have decided to compile seperately and bestowed Guru Gaddi to AGGS.
His disiples like Baba Deep Singh ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji along with his Panj pyares used to recite this baani of Dasam Granth and its Baani was recited in the congregation of Sikhs to inspire them for martyrdom to save their valor and pride. Hence guru ji might have taken this decision.
In whole AGGS, the Baani gives the message of Naam japp except on
Ang 1200, where Guru Ramdass ji delivers the message to youths to obey their parents who have given birth to them as they deserves to be given respect.
That's the difference in both the Granths and to keep them separate. The Baani full of Bir-ras was not added into AGGS deleberately. This is my expectation.
Regards.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Veer Tejwant singh,
If misunderstanding is there, please re-write your question. Why i wrote to Gyaniji, may be in some pretext, i don't remember. I wonder one thing your's and Gyani ji's views always favoring each other whereas if i protest, i do appreciate also. Why so?
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[Inder singh]

Truth does not remain hidden.

 

[dalsingh]

His disiples like Baba Deep Singh ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji along with his Panj pyares used to recite this baani of Dasam Granth and its Baani was recited in the congregation of Sikhs to inspire them for martyrdom to save their valor and pride.

Brother, where did you come across this information? Please inform me.

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Veer jio, iGuru fateh !!
I have the copy of the letter written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and a copy of Rahatnama written by his nephew.Moreover see the front page of Dasam Granth at Patna sahib approving this.
Regards .
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

 

[dalsingh]

Veer jio, iGuru fateh !!
I have the copy of the letter written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and a copy of Rahatnama written by his nephew.Moreover see the front page of Dasam Granth at Patna sahib approving this.
Regards .
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

Gurfath

Bhai ji, that letter attributed to Bhai Mani Singh about the 303 trias is BLATANTLY too modern in writing style to be authentic.

Can you provide more details of this rehit by his nephew please? A scan perhaps? I have not heard of it.

 

[Inder singh]

Gurfath

Bhai ji, that letter attributed to Bhai Mani Singh about the 303 trias is BLATANTLY too modern in writing style to be authentic.

Can you provide more details of this rehit by his nephew please? A scan perhaps? I have not heard of it.

That letter states that 303 charitras have been located till that date. Those who doubt that letter, have they got it chemically analysed to say that letter is not authentic. if so please give the reference here.

dal singh ji, there are writings of english writers who have witnessed gurmatta during maharaja ranjit singh's time indicating that dasam granth was kept in prakash during Gurmattas. have you seen those writings.

Moreover there is a gutka of Baba deep singh ji shaheed having bani from Dasam granth.

Only serious discussions please.

 

[Ajmer singh Randhawa]

Aad ji, if the letter received with attachment, why it didn't publish. I had to cancel to resend with new attachment again.Please receive the attachement in response to Dal Singh ji.
Regards Ajmer Singh Randhawa.