Hindu Aarti In Gurdwara

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by gs_chana, Sep 6, 2005.


  1. gs_chana

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

    Before I begin, I am writing this article from my own knowledge and if I have written anything wrong or misunderstood anything, please do not hesitate to correct me, I am a Sikh, and I shall learn as a Sikh.

    I would like to ask how many people have seen AARTI being performed at Sri Keshghar Sahib in India. After Rehraas Sahib, AARTI begins at the gurdwara, and to my HORROR, SICKNESS, and Disappointment, the AARTI performed is quiet literally a HINDU ritual.

    A Giani is standing there with a 'thaal' (tray) with burning divas and agarbatis whilst AARTI is being performed. Bare in mind, the AARTI performed is one of the "Sikh Version", i.e. Gurbani. During the end of the AARTI, a bell begins to be rung, then the thaal is circulated around Guru Granth, and at the end, it is given to sangat and they cover the diva with their hand then wipe their hand over their face, JUST THE EXACT SAME WAY AS HINDUS.

    Now I am not being offensive to Hindus, but this act is a wasteful, non meaningful and not related to God in any single way. What is the point in circulating a thaal with Divas around Guruji. We are told to read and understand gurbani, not perform rituals to it, what the hell is the meaning of that, its like doing the same thing to a picture of Guru's, UTTERLY WASTEFUL.

    I do not know how many people who have realised and questioned this, but I do not understand why this has been going on for so long. I would like to know your point of view, and please urge that WE THE YOUTH and Sikh Sangat here start a petition or other action to bring a stop to this.

    WHY ARE WE LETTING GURU NANAK's TEACHINGS GO TO WASTE BY NOT LISTENING TO A WORD GURU JI TAUGHT US. GURUJI TAUGHT US TO FORGET THESE RITUALS and I BLAME PEOPLES IGNORANCE THAT SUCH ACTS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED FOR SO LONG.

    I AM NOT A SAINT, I AM A SINNER OF SINNER, I AM FOOL, I AM NOTHING, and I know nothing, and I urge you forgive me for any mistakes I've made, and please urge something be done about this SOON rather than later before our people just continually get sucked into such RUBBISH.

    Thank you,
    WJKWJF
    Gurdip Singh Chana
     
  2. Singhstah

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    i completely 100% agree with you. I mean are they even listening to the bani they are reciting, its telling them to do the eaxact opposite!!
     
  3. gs_chana

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    I had only noticed now that I wrote Sri Keshghar Sahib, I was meant to say Hazoor Sahib. Regardless, Its very suprising only one person has replied to this post since its been up. Take it no one cares about such acts.

    Gurdip Chana
     
  4. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Well Hindus also wear turban and Muslims also keep beared so we must not have that.

    Rather Arti which was there in hindus before Arti of Sikhs was writtan bvut as Hindu do Arti of thier demi gods so we must not do our Arti of Akal.

    So there is no ned for Arti at all perhaps.

    Das just wants to add that Arti with or without lamps etc. does not matter till we understand it as not a spell.

    It is performed both in Patna Sahib and Hajur Sahib just as it was done before in most of the Gurudwaras in past.

    Legend says that it was done with lamps just to put defiance to Moghuals who banned Arti of any type with bells and lamps.

    Sound and light with bells and fire insted of loud speaker or other electrical lamps etc were just a way to tell at that time people away that some Arti is being performed and let them come and to moghuls that we Sikhs give it a damn to thier dictats and to hindus that real Arti has to be done for Akal and not thier demi gods.

    In fact tray is symbol of sky and lamp as son and moon espcialy for Sudras or lower castes who come to Gurudwaras who cannont see Arti in hindu temple in which they are not allowed but can perform this thing in Gurudwara.

    It is symbolic and not to do with intrusion of hindusim which is just 80 years old but Arti is from the time of Aurangjeb when he banned the lamp and bells(Sikhs anyway did not ban azan from Muslim moque for similar purpose).At the time of Gurus before Tenth Master it was not done with Lamps.

    das does sing Arti after Rahraas Sahib daily even when on move but does not uses lamp etc. but does not find wrong if some old but obsolate tradtions are still done in some Gurudwaras.

    Das would like to raise the further questions that say some people tend to say that idols are sleeping and awaken and gives claoth to idols.

    so what about our Santokh,Praksah or Rumala on Guru Granth Sahib Ji.That hindu things are still with us.

    Sorry for fast words but only intention was to remove insecurty complex in Sikhs like we have in wahabis.

    Das is not against if there in ban on so called hindu Arti in Gurudwaras but we must not take this thing in tradition or history as negtive influence.

    Yes it can be used by wrong people like say that for poor people Arti with Lamps and bell can cause finacial burdan etc. But there is no such things in those Gurudwaras at present.

    Akal bless.
     
  5. Singhstah

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    vijaydeep singh ji, you talk of things the hindus have given us, the hindus have given us nothing. Guroo ji gave us everthiing
     
  6. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Dear Brother Singhstah JI,

    Whehn Panth was made there was no hindu nor Muslim but only Akal was there.It us who gave to all.

    Well what das trys to say that there could be som e similarty between us or orther faiths but that does not mean that we must give up our practises or devotion.

    Arti in hindus is more a ritaul intial though it could be symbolism.

    In us Arti is symbolism only and not the ritualism.What does it mean?

    well some people do not sing Arti at all.

    Some sing in siolation.

    some sing in Gurudwaras without lamps

    some sing with lamps.

    Till all is allwoed and no force is attched that this is the only way and should be done as must, it is symbolism,when it is forced as a rule and rigidity it is ritualism.

    Das has seen Gurudwaras in west where Arti is not at all sung while in India it is done in the veing so as code book of Rahit it is not the nitneem.

    So even Arti is not sung it is OK.

    but if art is sung then people from Sikh family may not know nor non Hindu people nor lower caste hindus at one time did know how(as then they were prevented to visit Temple) Hindus did arti in Temple so meaning of our Arti they may not be able to get.

    but if simiar lar thing is done in Gurudwara they will be able to see similar to Hindus.Here Arti wants to tell us aabout sturdt state therory of universe as per Dhansari Mahal 1,Guru tells us that universe moves with componment to sing glory of God and that is Arti.

    Like we use many balls to represent planet,moon or sun in solar system to let people understand the truth.

    We can use the Arti with lamp and sound to tech still bigger theory but symbols are for teaching only.Akal Bless.
     
  7. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Gurdip Singh Chana Ji!

    It looks like you are more interested in hating others than fall in love with them. Be sure God belongs to the other side till one is completely in love with HIM.

    Actions are pure activities. Those do not have a religion. All activities are Godly and HIS WILL.

    Our Gurus sang Aartee even when other symbols like thaal, lamps, ghee, dhoop and flowers were not available.

    One may blaze off lamps so that those are not used for Aartee. But please do not try to blaze off the sun and moon because those are participating happily in God's Aartee since ages.

    Kudrat (nature) is doing Aartee uninterruptedly. Is nature a Sikh or a Hindu?

    Human beings try to imitate God. Unconsciously they start embodying nature (Maya) till they come to know God.

    Everything, also Aartee, is left behind when God consciousness arises.

    But no one comes to know God by discarding anything, also Aartee.

    Sikhs may reject the Hindu Aartee if this is the way our Gurus suggested us to achieve God.

    No one comes to the wisdom of God by rejecting or holding an opinion about an action.

    Anyone may get the wisdom of God when he lets all flow also Aartee.

    Have you ever thought why our Guru sang "kaisee aartee ho-ay. bhav khandnaa tayree aartee." SGGS page 13

    Aartee happens. Aartee may take place in anyone in any way.

    Who are we to call it a Sikh or Hindu Aartee?

    Everyone does Aartee as God wants him to do.

    Gurbani says "jo tis bhaavai so aartee ho-ay." SGGS page 13



    Balbir Singh
     
  8. FireStorm

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    I absolutely do not agree or support the views of Balbir Singh Ji or Vijaydeep Singh Ji.

    Firstly I dont think Chana Ji hates someone and such remarks should not have been made against him. He has merely pointed out a corrupt practice started from the era of Mahants and something which has no value add and needs to be stopped.

    Guys we need to look at sikhism in its entirety, and not from a single point. The physical aarti has never been and will never be a part of sikhism and there is no need for us to associate with the same.

    These things ought to be nipped in the bud, or they will give rise to fuller problems. Tommorow people may even start doing Havan. Ok, so we will discard such activities also as 'ours being spirtual' and their being physical. Slowly such activities will matter more than the actual teachings of the Gurus. people will think doing aarti or havan is enough for them and they need not do anything else.

    This is exactly what is happening now, with people taking a swip at the Thaali and then putting it to their face,

    Simple as that Guru Granth Sahib is not a stone idol, which needs to be worshippd in an aarti form. Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru, and the way to worship the Guru is to read, understand and imbibe the teachings on our daily life.

    I think Mr. Chana Ji is right in pointing out this practice which needs to be stopped.

    It is best to respect other religions but at the same time to maintain our identity. Both physical and spirtual aspects of a religion are important. We can ignore one at the peril of jeopardising the other
     
  9. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Das is not supporting arti as such but only wanted to prove that it hass nothing to do with Mahants who have so called attempt to bring us into hindusim.

    It was rather a way to bring others to our faith.

    It depends upon how much faith do we ahve on our God Akal and so we are above insecurity complex.

    Das here wants to inform that Catholic missionaries in India have also started the Arti of Mary and Jesus and offer coconut to them just to attract hindus and this thier way of preaching.

    While when we talk about taking Arti or what we call swiping the hands.

    It is symbol that devotee is higher to deity in hindus but in us it means that Khalsa is equal to Guru.As per Sarbloh Granth Guru has 12 forms,Two are Guru Granth Sahib and Guru Panth while other ten are our Gurus.

    Das is supporting to stop Arti not due to fear of Hindus but form making Guramat more simple.

    By the way das is reapeating the question.

    why like hindus do with thier idols do we carry out Santokh and Praksah(in Hindus we further have afternoon break also).

    And what about making Palkis of gold,Domes of gold or putting Rumalas or woolen cloaths on Guru Granth Sahib Ji in winter or Air conditioning in summer?And waht about Sehra or flower being sold to be put around Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

    Das finds roots of this not by an attempt of outsider to absorb but are aliments carried into Panth from pagan convertees who just entered Panth for reason other then getting impreesed by ideology.

    Das again repeat that what is wrong if Sikhs did disobey Muslim rulers of that time like they disobyed by not eating Halal,when it was also made mandtory?

    Another thing is about Havan.

    Well it is there in the form of Sampat Path or Chaliah and was there till long.

    Logically when we were not having mosquito repellent or other insecticide like old Aryans Sikhs in jungles might also have used it to manitain the concentration to study Gurbani.

    Das can say that if all out mosquitoo repelleant is used in Gurudwara while Akhand Path is done and intention is the welfare of Sangat then that also is Sampat Path but old Sampat Path with herbs being burnt was more eco freindly.

    but be it Arti or Havan etc. what matters is what is good for Sangat and is local Sangat sesnible enough that they may not be misguuided into ritualism.

    to play safe we can ban it.Or if som e does it then he/she must explain that why is it done.
     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and FireStorm Ji!

    GS Chana Ji wrote these words ". . . AARTI begins at the gurdwara, and to my HORROR, SICKNESS, and Disappointment, the AARTI performed is quiet literally a HINDU ritual."
    He wrote further "Now I am not being offensive to Hindus, but this act is a wasteful, non meaningful and not related to God in any single way." And "what the hell is the meaning of that, its like doing the same thing to a picture of Guru's, UTTERLY WASTEFUL."

    In my view, these are not words full of love to someone.

    --------------

    You wrote "Guys we need to look at sikhism in its entirety, and not from a single point. The physical aarti has never been and will never be a part of sikhism and there is no need for us to associate with the same."

    Sikhs sing Aartee with music instruments. Is it not a physical Aartee?

    Please provide a reference where our Gurus have instructed us to sing Aartee?

    Aartee happens. Aartee is happening. Aartee happened through our Gurus words.

    Since when Sikhs have started this ritual imitating and why?

    Aartee was being performed in many Gurdwaras also in Punjab by our elderly generations. It is still being performed in many Gurdwaras with lamps, flowers etc.

    Were our elders not closer to the Truth?

    Sikhs from Hazoor Sahib and Patna Sahib say that they are carrying the Aartee in the same way as that from our Gurus time.

    Why so many changes have been introduced in activities of Gurdwaras in Northern India since our Guru's time?

    Please guide many further.


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. gs_chana

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    WJKWJF...

    First of all I would like to apologise for being a bit HARSH to some, and sounding like I have full hatred in my mind for Hindus.

    I have hatred in my mind on the basis that we are performing rituals...Guruji instructs us how to live life, how become one with God, how to love and etc NOT PERFORM RITUALS OF ENDLESS MEANS.

    However, this arguement i was making was not based on hatred for a religion, RATHER it was based on the fact that why worship Guruji if what I have mentioned above is what Guru ji teaches us.

    We have involved ourselves in rituals of worshipping Guruji, who is not an Idol. REMEMBER, Guru Gobind Singh said that those who call me God or Worship me will go to hell...NOW THAT IS NOT WHAT I'VE MADE UP...GuRUJI SAYS SO.

    Now are you going to disobey Guruji just to respect another faith??

    I was trying to make the point on how empty the arti of guruji really is, because as pointed out by FIRESTORM, we are required to follow guruji, to WORSHIP GOD, NOT OUR GURU. Respect of Guruji comes not from performing rituals to Guruji, rather following and obeying Guruji is ultimate respect for Guruji.

    Guruji says in aarti that Naam Tero Aarti...Naam Phul Mala, Naam tere etc... EVERYTHING IS NAAM. Aarti of GOD is not done by Physical aarti...or SYMBOLISM...God's Aarti is simply done by meditating on Gods name and his attributes.

    Please do not assume I have hatred for religion...I guess i wrote the article when I was in a bit of a state of shock and disgust due to the fact that our people are being SUCKED INTO these rituals and empty matters.

    PLEASE BROTHERS AND SISTERS..AWAKEN...As said by FIRESTORM

    "Guys we need to look at sikhism in its entirety, and not from a single point. The physical aarti has never been and will never be a part of sikhism and there is no need for us to associate with the same"

    STOP THIS PETTY ARGUMENT THAT I HAVE HATRED TOWARDS HINDUISM...Its only a shame that FIRESTORM has understood exactly what point I was trying to make about Aarti. Understand what is the meaning of aarti..and in conclusion...understand that Aarti is not done by circuling thaals and divas around Guruji or Photos of Guruji and his shastras...rather...it is done by meditating on God...as Guruji in countless places says...read Guru Granth and tell me whether I am right or wrong that ultimate prayer...ultimate sacrifice to God is done by meditation and meditation only...sewa of god achieves everything NOT WORLDLY DEEDS.

    Thank you...sorry for offending anyone..sorry for saying anything which was offensive...and I hope this article clarifies exactly what I was intitally trying to say.

    Gurdip singh chana
     
    jasbirkaleka likes this.
  12. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Gurdip Singh Chana Ji!
    Thanks for you clarifications.

    You wrote "I have hatred in my mind on the basis that we are performing rituals..."

    May I ask why we hate others when we perform rituals?

    The universes are God's activities. A person who is blessed with God's experience has no hate, even for so-called rituals, what to say about religions and religious activities.

    People from a religion are never convinced that they are ritualists.

    You also wrote "...understand that Aarti is not done by circuling thaals and divas around Guruji or Photos of Guruji and his shastras...rather...it is done by meditating on God..."and "...ultimate sacrifice to God is done by meditation and meditation only...sewa of god achieves everything NOT WORLDLY DEEDS."

    Please suggest how to meditate on God, do HIS Sewa and Aartee whom a person has not come to know.


    Balbir Singh
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Chana Sahib Das is happy that you have faiht in Vachitar Natak which has staing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji that if anyone beholf him as God will go to lake of hell and behold him as slave of that and doubt/secret about it is to be recoganise.I am slave of Supereme complete and come to se the play of universe.

    But in Dasham Granth also there is part of Arti still sung in Gurudwaras with or without plates,flower or bells ie

    Yate Prassan bhaye Hain Maha munn Devan to Tap menain Sukh pavven Yag Karen Ik Bhed Rare Bhav Tape hare mil Dhayne Lave.

    Jhaalar Tal Mridang Upang Rabab Liye Sur Saj Milaven
    Kinnar Gandhrap Gan Gun Jachh Appchaer Nriat Dhikhaven.

    Sankah anKi dhuna Gahtan Ki kar Phoolan Ki Barkah Barkaven.
    Arti Kot Kare Sur Sunder Pekah Purander Ke Bal Javen

    Dannat Dashan De Ke Pardash Bhal mein Kukan Achat Laven.
    Hoot Kulahal Dev Puri mil devan Ke kul Mangal Gave.

    It is from Same Dasham Granth and Arti is being told being done to Akal/Allah/Jehova/Yehova/Parbraham by Angels and all Flower,bells etc.

    In fact lamp is perhaps not mentioned.

    May be Guru could see such thing in glory of Akal.

    and das support this view that nither picture nor Guru Granth Sahib Ji are to be worshipped and Arti of Akal is also being happening by Angels.

    That is thier way but We can sing gory just by rembering Akal with each breath.But is only dome by mercy of Akal.

    forgive das if verse above in Braj language and Roman Script is not properly writtan.Das will try to bring it correctly soon.
     
  14. hps62

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    Dear Brother Channa

    Dont get disturbed.
    Sikhism is a universal religion .
    It encompassess all the religions .

    Guru granth sahib may not include directl saying from some western religion due to non interaction but its essence is of "one father for all by what ever name " sarvat ka bhalla ".

    I feel Artiis are a part of our mother religion . Why as a son should it upset you . A mass / a Id prayers / and all religion worship will capture the spirit of sikhism.

    Sikhism is all about having the unity of all religions.

    SSAKAL
    WGKWGF
    :) hps62:)
     
  15. devinesanative

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    Whom should one Obey Guruji Or God . Or Both ?

    How one can obey two Hukums at one time ?

    One should draw and get Inspiration and Show respect to Guruji and "God Helps those WHo helps Themselves".
     
  16. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Dear hps62 Ji,

    We as Singh are mother of all religeons.

    Gurmat is Sanatan religeon.From us does Hindus,Muslims or Christians arose.

    When akal made universe Brahma,Vishnu and Mahesh were initial Sikhs of Akal.

    So Gumat has no mother religeon nor we are son religeon.It is only some of our intellectuals who have made that First Master started Sikh faith.

    It is wrong and there fore divine Seantive Ji,We have only one Guru Gurbar Akal and no human Guru at all.

    Akal does manifest in Gurbani and in Panth.Ten Gurus were medium of Gurubani to reach us.

    Das is soory if wrong is writtan and forgive das.Das was only putting the view of Sanatan Sikhs.

    Thier site is sarbloh.info

    and Site anti to them is amritworld.com

    visit the both sites.
     
  17. Terlochan_singh

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    WaheGuru Ji ka Khalsa WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh

    I am totally new to this forum so please forgive me if i say something wrong.

    Secondly i recently started knowing our religion so still learning:) . i know there are miles to go before i sleep.

    If we read the aarti properly then we can come to know that what it states.

    The sky is the salver
    And the sun and the moon the lamps.
    The luminous stars on the heavens are the pearls.
    Scented air from the sandal-clad hills is the incense,
    The winds make the fan for Thee,
    And the vast forests wreath of flowers.
    The unstruck music of creation is the trumpet.
    Thus goes on the Arati (adoration) for Thee,
    O' Thou dispeller of doubt and fear!




    when Guru Ji stated that sky is the plate which has sun and moon as the deepak then why do we require a thal with deyas in it for the aarti.

    The aarti was written by Guru Ji after he saw the aarti at Jaganath Temple Puri.(please correct me if i am wrong).

     
  18. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    yes you are correct about Jaganath Puri where non hindus and lower castes are not allowed.How can be that idol be God when it disrcrimanted upon for even neo converted Hindus into thyat Temple.

    Hindus must remove this ban from entry to Jagannath Puri to neo converts or at least lower castes among non hindus(Such thing was even there in past for Darbar Sahib till reform of Gurudwaras came into force).
     
  19. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Terlochan Singh Ji!
    You raised a good question. "when Guru Ji stated that sky is the plate which has sun and moon as the deepak then why do we require a thal with deyas in it for the aarti."

    The holy Vaak from Gurdev is "gagan mai thaal rav chand deepak banay taarikaa mandal janak motee." SGGS page 663-5

    Gagan means sky. Sky has a character. It is space and gives space to all. It gives space to the plate also that is used for Aartee.

    'Gagan mai thaal' means the plate in the sky. It is often false translated as sky is the plate.

    --------------

    You also wrote "The aarti was written by Guru Ji after he saw the aarti at Jaganath Temple Puri."

    I am not able to find where our Gurus have narrated a story like that. Please provide a reference.


    Balbir Singh
     
  20. Terlochan_singh

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