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Wrong translation of Japuji Sahab by Radhaswami sect.

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Ajmer singh Randhawa, Jun 7, 2009.

  1. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    Khalsa veer jio, ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ਜੀ ||

    I was studing a translation of Japuji Saahab by Dr.T R Shangari, who taught Gurbaani and Sufi kalaam to the students of Punjab UniversityAt DAV College,Jalandhar.(Punjab). Whils translating first Pauri of Japu ji Sahab,"Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!"

    Being a follwer of Radhaswami sect, by the grace of Guru ji he was not enlightened to translate these lines in its true form. Guruji didn't worship to be able to express actual meanings as he had bifurcated from the path of Sikhism.
    This shows what he would have taught his students in his carrier as a Gurbaani teacher. He would have certainly prepared the scholars towards Radhaswami sect but distancesed himself from the blessings of Guru ji(Akal Purakh).
    In translation he describes the meanings of 'soch' as passing the stool or human excreta. he further says tHAt the meanings of 'SOCH' SEEMS CONNECTED WITH THE CLEANLINESS OF BODY.

    Though i can assume the meanings but i request all the partcipants of this forum to describe It's meanings themselves and define in detail please.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa.

     
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    #1 Ajmer singh Randhawa, Jun 7, 2009
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Ajmer Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Is there any way for you to post his translation of japji in the forum? Lots of people including Prof. Sahib Singh, Maskeen ji, Yogi Bhajan, Manmoham Singh and others have translated the same pauri in diffferent manners.

    It will be interesting to do the comparative studies on it so we can all learn from it.

    I have an idea. Why don't you post Pauri by Pauri, one at a time the translations of Japji from all you know and read about, including this Radasoami's and also share the same in your own words about your own thought process about the posted Pauri and then rest of us can pitch in? This will be a great way for all of us to understand and do Shabad Vichaar collectively so we can really immerse in the concept of," Mil Sadh Sangat bhaj keval Naam".

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #2 Tejwant Singh, Jun 7, 2009
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  4. AdsKhalsa

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fathe....Ajmer Singh Ji...

    Maafi Chawanga...(I am sorry to say) that Its Jap baani... or you can say JAPu...but not japji aur JAPUJI... baani.... JI and Sahib...we added as respect....same way we have other baani's...like..Sukmani, Rehraas, anand, Jaap, Chaupi,.....Sahib and Ji we add as respect......

    Bhul Chuk Maaf..........

    Chardi Kala........
     
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  5. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    Veer Tejwant Singh ji, Gur Fateh !!
    I have raised the issue here in this forum before you learnered scholars of Guru Granth Sahab ji. Translation of Gurbaani is not so simple for an ordinary person like me. I am able to express myself but translating Gurbaani in English, is an uphill task for me.
    Even than by the grace of God, i shall try as you have suggested but before that what he has written, i have passed it on here, for to be viewed by you members.
    'Soch' means - he has described "SHAUCH" So you can better under stand if i have stated anything wrong.Kindly suggest.
    Sangtan da das.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
     
  6. Ajmer singh Randhawa

    Ajmer singh Randhawa
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    Veerji, ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ਜੀ ||
    I'll take care in future. Thanks.
     
  7. Randip Singh

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    Why?

    I see this as nit picking.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    I think AdsKhalsa is stating that '"jap" means chant so jap bani is chant bani.
     
  9. Ajmer singh Randhawa

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    Veer Randip Singh ji, whom you have addressed and what do you mean of nit picking ? Please define Thanks
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
     
  10. AdsKhalsa

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

    I am saying just write is separately ..not compelling not to write Ji or Sahib..Just because of us it is conveyed wrong to new generation....we not not to change baani... its same way we added Jo with our jaikara...I conveyed whatever is right......believe it or not ..its on individual's own perception...

    Chardi Kala.....
     
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  11. AdsKhalsa

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

    Jap is baani...Jaap is also a baani...Sukmani is also a baani....I am not saying to CHANT...but only conveying that there is no baani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib as JAPuJI or japji....

    its JAPu...or JAP....there is no JI added....its as per TATKARA (Index) of Sri Guru Granth Sahib... even when JAP Ji Sahib begins ..its only written JAP...or JAPu.....not JAPJI or JAPUJI............

    Ji is separate word....no in Sri Guru Granth Sahib...just want to clarify...I believe not to create confusion for members from other religion and our new generation...convey the right things to them....

    If you heard Shabad..."Rehni Rahey Soyi Sikh Mera "..in that Guru Ji Said..."Padey JAP JAAP"

    not JAPJI.... because there is no JAPJI baani...Its JAP (JI SAHIB).....I humbly request .... please don't club these two words while saying and writing.....

    I tried my best to convey what I want to...........

    Chardi Kala...
     
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  12. Randip Singh

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    What I am trying to convey is, that comment is taking this topic off topic, for the sake of a typo error. Lets not get distracted. We have enough people trying to distract us without things like this here.

    Thanks
     
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  13. AdsKhalsa

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Randip Singh Ji...

    Maafi chawanga....I have no intension to divert from topic..just want to correct a basic thing...I am a servant of Guru...and thought its my duty....

    Sorry, if because of me topic is diverted....

    I am ignorant.....sorry ....

    Bhul Chuk Maafi........

    Chardi Kala.....
     
  14. Tejwant Singh

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    Ajmer Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Can you post the whole pauri that he has translatated? Is it a recording? if it is, it can be uploaded. One can not make anything out with just a word or 2.

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
  15. Ajmer singh Randhawa

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    Veer Tejwant Singh ji,
    ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ਜੀ ||
    I have quoted from his book written in Punjabi and published by Radhaswami Satsang Beas. i'll paste a photocopy of that page to-day r as soon as i get the chance to do it.
    Thanks
    Ajmer Singh randhawa
     
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  16. Ajmer singh Randhawa

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    Veer Tejwant Singh ji, I am pasting a photocopy of that page no, 44-45. Please read the explanation and the last line where writer agrees to the meanings of 'SOCH' to "SHAUCH" means to relieve human excreta.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa.
     

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  17. Astroboy

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  18. Ajmer singh Randhawa

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    No sir, I disagree with you. The editor of this book is SEWA SINGH, Sec. RS Beas, and the address of writer is given as Dr. T R Shangari, S-6, Radhasuami colony, Dera Baba Jaimal Singh Beas.(Amritsar).
    So how can you say that the group is from breakway group from Radhaswami which is known as of Sant Kirpal Singh.
    Ajmer Singh Randhawa
     
  19. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    See the translation and tell me if it is faulty.
    There are many many Radha Soami groups just like Nanaksar groups.
    All are out to make money by using the teachings of SGGS.
     
  20. Tejwant Singh

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    Ajmer Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for posting the Punjabi version from the Radasoami about the translation of the second Pauri of Jap ji.

    Pardon my ignorance and I must admit that I am not a very learned person but I have no idea what you are talking about. I would like you to elaborate it a bit better.

    You write:

    Following is the definition of the wordf excreta used by you.

    excreta - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

    ex·cre·ta [​IMG] ([​IMG]k-skr[​IMG][​IMG]t[​IMG]) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=-1]pl.n. [/SIZE]

    Waste matter, such as sweat, urine, or feces, discharged from the body.

    To separate and discharge (waste matter) from the blood, tissues, or organs.

    This is a natural process, not man made. Some people may die if they have the blockage and can not excrete and have to be operated on.

    I, myself excrete lots of sweat during my daily walks which are from 5.3 miles during the week to 7 miles during the weekend, but I do not stink even with the dripping sweat.:)

    I do apologise for not understanding what you are trying to say and what your true objection is. So the elaboration of your thought on the whole Pauri may shed some light to it.

    Looking forward to it.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  21. spnadmin

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    Ajmer Singh ji

    Let's go back to the beginning of the thread for the sake of members and nonmembers alike who are confused by this discussion (not because they are stupid or uninformed but because they cannot figure out the thread of discussion).

    Your opening comments:

    Khalsa veer jio, ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹਜੀ ||

    quoted material from Post 1 I was studing a translation of Japuji Saahab by Dr.T R Shangari, who taught Gurbaani and Sufi kalaam to the students of Punjab UniversityAt DAV College,Jalandhar.(Punjab). Whils translating first Pauri of Japu ji Sahab,"Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!"

    Being a follwer of Radhaswami sect, by the grace of Guru ji he was not enlightened to translate these lines in its true form. Guruji didn't worship to be able to express actual meanings as he had bifurcated from the path of Sikhism.

    This shows what he would have taught his students in his carrier as a Gurbaani teacher. He would have certainly prepared the scholars towards Radhaswami sect but distancesed himself from the blessings of Guru ji(Akal Purakh).

    In translation he describes the meanings of 'soch' as passing the stool or human excreta. he further says tHAt the meanings of 'SOCH' SEEMS CONNECTED WITH THE CLEANLINESS OF BODY.

    Though i can assume the meanings but i request all the partcipants of this forum to describe It's meanings themselves and define in detail please.

    Ajmer Singh Randha
    wa. end of quoted material

    I am not one to call "heretic" or "beadbi" at the slightest suggestion of disagreement. But there are some serious problems with the teaching of Dr. T. R. Shangari. And frankly to make the claim he has made would indeed require him, if not force him, to "bifurcate" as you put it to take the side of a sect, or even to start a sect of his own. If I pull a rabbit out of my pocket and call it "Gurmukh" that is just as much an insult of the Guru as the statement that "Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!" has something to do with human excrement. But that is what this conversation is starting to look like -- rabbits are being pulled out everywhere in the form of pseudointellectual commentary and discussed with clever commentary and very little in the way of links to sources and plain old-fashioned Gurmata.

    The only sure test of a vichaar of Gurbani is a test of internal consistency with Gurbani itself. There is nothing in the pauree that connects "Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!" to cleanliness or to human excreta.

    Here is the pauree


    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
    sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
    By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

    ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
    chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||
    By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.



    ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
    bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||
    The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.


    ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
    sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||
    Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.


    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
    kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||
    So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?


    ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
    hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
    O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||


    There is nothing related to cleanliness, nor anything to remind us of excrement, at this point in the bani Sahib. A person does not have to like the translation of Dr. Sant Singh to understand that the pauree tells us that material acquisitions and intellectual accomplishment will not tear away the veil of illusion. And this also includes clever tricks. How did Guru Nanak Dev suspect we would fall time and again even in this thread? The only things that will tear away that veil, that will bring us to our Sat, our truthful nature, is to obey the hukam of His command and walk in dharma.

    I want to add after conversation with respected forum member Tejwant ji -- The pauree also tells us that meditation with rapt attention will not make Him accessible. Observing silence will not make him accessible. Piling up provisions to feed the hungry will not make Him accessible (because the hunger referred to here is spiritual hunger). Cleverness will not make Him accessible. (added later)

    So that leaves open the question -- does having clean intestines have any connection whatsoever to obeying His hukam or walking in dharma? And the answer is NO. How do we know that?

    Because on ang 374 Guru Arjan Dev says that our physical being is of no consequence if we are seeking the darshan of Waheguru.

    ਬਿਸਟਾ ਅਸਤ ਰਕਤੁ ਪਰੇਟੇ ਚਾਮ ॥
    bisattaa asath rakath paraettae chaam ||
    you are just excrement, bones and blood, wrapped up in skin

    And so mental obsessions with our bowels and its by-products are obstacles to attaining the Light of His Name. How do I know?


    ਨਉ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥
    no khandd prithhamee firai chir jeevai ||
    You may roam over the nine continents of the world and live a very long life;


    ਮਹਾ ਉਦਾਸੁ ਤਪੀਸਰੁ ਥੀਵੈ ॥
    mehaa oudhaas thapeesar thheevai ||
    you may become a great ascetic and a master of disciplined meditation


    ਅਗਨਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਹੋਮਤ ਪਰਾਨ ॥
    agan maahi homath paraan ||
    and burn yourself in fire;


    ਕਨਿਕ ਅਸ੍ਵ ਹੈਵਰ ਭੂਮਿ ਦਾਨ ॥
    kanik asv haivar bhoom dhaan ||
    you may give away gold, horses, elephants and land;


    ਨਿਉਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੈ ਬਹੁ ਆਸਨ ॥
    nioulee karam karai bahu aasan ||
    you may practice techniques of inner cleansing and all sorts of Yogic postures;

    ਜੈਨ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਜਮ ਅਤਿ ਸਾਧਨ ॥
    jain maarag sanjam ath saadhhan ||
    you may adopt the self-mortifying ways of the
    Jains and great spiritual disciplines;


    ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਕਰਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਕਟਾਵੈ ॥
    nimakh nimakh kar sareer kattaavai ||
    piece by piece, you may cut your body apart;


    ਤਉ ਭੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥
    tho bhee houmai mail n jaavai ||
    but even so, the filth of your ego shall not depart.

    And the self mortifying ways that Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to here in Raag sukhmani was the habit of Jains to spread out their feces on a daily basis and inspect them, smell them, in order to make determinations of inner balance, and to preserve any traces of worms so they would not be killed. It is a matter of fascination that sects cast off the liberation offered them by the rare realized soul that visits in a century and chase after rituals. Often and for whatever reason, clean intestines play a role in that. :confused: Very strange.


    However there is a connection between
    "Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!" and cleanliness. In sriRaag Guruji explains in many places that this is all part of the filth of ego. The filth of ego cannot be washed away. It cannot be removed by studying it is not removed by bathing, and it is not addressed in a satisfactory way by an obsessed focus on intestinal cleanliness.

    I wonder how many other forum members and forum visitors who have been reading this thread share with me this question. Where are you coming from?
     

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