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Sikhism What Is The Meaning Of Realization Of God ?

ActsOfGod

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Becoming a Sikh removes one from belief in the mechanism of karma. Even if one still believes in karma, becoming a Sikh removes one from its working, and it is no longer relevant.

It's not a matter of belief. Guru Sahib has acknowledged and stated that karmic laws are in effect in this realm, "what you sow, you shall reap". This appears multiple times in Gurbani, and what I understand from it is that there is cause and effect. Becoming a Sikh doesn't exempt you from the laws of the Universe. It does enable you to make better choices, though.

May I ask you if you believe in hell? If not, why not, since it's mentioned in Gurbani? And if so, how do you reconcile it with believe in reincarnation?

The concept of heaven and hell are the states of mind, not a physical location like Hades that you find described in a lot of the Judeo-Christian literature.

I haven't espoused a belief in reincarnation. The accurate term for it is transmigration. Guru Sahib describes how a persons Soul is dispositioned according to his or her dying thoughts. This includes rebirth into life forms that are other than human -- snake, spider, pig, etc.

[AoG]
 

Ishna

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It's not a matter of belief. Guru Sahib has acknowledged and stated that karmic laws are in effect in this realm, "what you sow, you shall reap". This appears multiple times in Gurbani, and what I understand from it is that there is cause and effect. Becoming a Sikh doesn't exempt you from the laws of the Universe. It does enable you to make better choices, though.

Karma is not about just sowing what you reap. Karma is like a weight. Each time you accumulate karma, the weight gets heavier, and drags you down the ladder of 'transmigration'. Each time your karma is relieved (by good works or by your suffering), you float higher up the ladder, and once all your karma is relieved (i.e. your account is settled) then you 'realise god'. Karma influences your rebirth and determines your caste.

Yes, Gurbani sings of sowing what you reap. It also sings about becoming Gurmukh and having your (imho imaginary) karmic account settled for you - it no longer applies, it is irrelevant. And that's about as complicated as it gets, from what I've learned from Gurbani so far. Thinking about things like karma takes up space in my brain which could be used for thinking about Akaal Sahib, which is all that matters, spiritually speaking.

The concept of heaven and hell are the states of mind, not a physical location like Hades that you find described in a lot of the Judeo-Christian literature.

I haven't espoused a belief in reincarnation. The accurate term for it is transmigration. Guru Sahib describes how a persons Soul is dispositioned according to his or her dying thoughts. This includes rebirth into life forms that are other than human -- snake, spider, pig, etc.

[AoG]

Transmigration is also a state of mind, imho. If Gurbani describes hell as if it were literal, but we understand that it's actually states of mind, then there should be nothing wrong with applying that same rationality to transmigration. I'm only 31 and have been through so many incarnations already in my one life that it's not funny.

Additionally, Gurbani says that this is our only chance to realise God. It says the opportunity won't come again. To me that is undermining the idea of literal transmigration right there.

Thank you for the conversation, bhaji. :)
 

Sherdil

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Since action is rooted in intention, dualistic thinking is the only sin. The more one thinks in duality the more karma one accrues. The more karma you accrue the heavier your Haumai becomes. This causes you to become ensnared by Maya.

If we eliminate the self, then karma has nothing to attach itself to. This is the loophole in the theory of Samsara. No self = no karma.

Karma as cause and effect:

Selfish thoughts accrue karma (cause). The effect is increased distance from the Beloved in one's mind.

But the Divine is both cause and effect. This is why The Divine pulls us close and pushes us away according to the Hukam.
 
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ActsOfGod

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once all your karma is relieved (i.e. your account is settled) then you 'realise god'. Karma influences your rebirth and determines your caste.

I'm not sure that you realize God once your karma is spotless. It (karma) may influence your rebirth as far as life form, but it has nothing to do with caste. Human is human.

Yes, Gurbani sings of sowing what you reap. It also sings about becoming Gurmukh and having your (imho imaginary) karmic account settled for you - it no longer applies, it is irrelevant. And that's about as complicated as it gets, from what I've learned from Gurbani so far. Thinking about things like karma takes up space in my brain which could be used for thinking about Akaal Sahib, which is all that matters, spiritually speaking.

There is a distinction here. I daresay that the vast majority of folks fall way way below the definition of Gurmukh (as per Gurbani). For us, who are nowhere near even being close to being a Gurmukh, the karmic account is certainly not settled.

Sikhs are subject to the laws of the Universe just like every living being. I could claim that gravity is imaginary and doesn't affect me because I follow Sikhi and therefore am exonerated from it's effects. I can claim that it's all fiction invented by some mad scientist. And yet, if I were to jump off the roof of a building, I would certainly fall to the ground. All the believing in Sikhi in the world wouldn't help me to avoid the effects of the Universal laws.

Having said that, there is also the recognition that Guru Sahib, who is all powerful, does have the capability and power of erasing or clearing our debts, some or all. This is Gur Prasad, and it is not for us to assume or expect. Guru Sahib grants this of His own accord, and blessed are those who receive it. We have no say or power in the matter.

Transmigration is also a state of mind, imho. If Gurbani describes hell as if it were literal, but we understand that it's actually states of mind, then there should be nothing wrong with applying that same rationality to transmigration. I'm only 31 and have been through so many incarnations already in my one life that it's not funny.

All the shabads regarding the rebirth don't read that way to me. It seems to be very clear. Perhaps I ought to revisit some of those shabads with these considerations in mind.

Besides, who knows, perhaps the hell that is being talked about is the rebirth into one of the lower life forms?

Additionally, Gurbani says that this is our only chance to realise God. It says the opportunity won't come again. To me that is undermining the idea of literal transmigration right there.

So here's a question. If this is our only chance, and we blow it, then what? Are we doomed for all eternity? Do we go to some sort of hell, or purgatory? What happens to us?

[AoG]
 

Ishna

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I'm not sure that you realize God once your karma is spotless. It (karma) may influence your rebirth as far as life form, but it has nothing to do with caste. Human is human.

Karma is a Hindu concept, and in that dharma, neutralizing your karma is the way to moksha. It has everything to do with caste, because the lighter your karma, the higher caste you may be born into, and the heavier your karma, the lower the caste.

There is a distinction here. I daresay that the vast majority of folks fall way way below the definition of Gurmukh (as per Gurbani). For us, who are nowhere near even being close to being a Gurmukh, the karmic account is certainly not settled.

Are you saying there is no hope for us to be Gurmukhs? Isn't that what we're all striving to be?

Sikhs are subject to the laws of the Universe just like every living being. I could claim that gravity is imaginary and doesn't affect me because I follow Sikhi and therefore am exonerated from it's effects. I can claim that it's all fiction invented by some mad scientist. And yet, if I were to jump off the roof of a building, I would certainly fall to the ground. All the believing in Sikhi in the world wouldn't help me to avoid the effects of the Universal laws.

Gravity is a law of physics. It is scientific, can be observed and tested. Karma cannot, and until you can prove it exists, you can't really compare it to gravity.

If karma exists, why can't hell?

Having said that, there is also the recognition that Guru Sahib, who is all powerful, does have the capability and power of erasing or clearing our debts, some or all. This is Gur Prasad, and it is not for us to assume or expect. Guru Sahib grants this of His own accord, and blessed are those who receive it. We have no say or power in the matter.

Ultimately it is only through Gur Prsad that we are able to realise God. No one can force the light-bulb moment.

All the shabads regarding the rebirth don't read that way to me. It seems to be very clear. Perhaps I ought to revisit some of those shabads with these considerations in mind.

I will happily explore them with you. :)

Besides, who knows, perhaps the hell that is being talked about is the rebirth into one of the lower life forms?

Well, since I'm not sure a "lower life form" can perform good deeds to negate their "bad karma", I can only assume that the suffering of said lower life forms is what negates the karma. I don't know. It's all far too complicated and speculative.

So here's a question. If this is our only chance, and we blow it, then what? Are we doomed for all eternity? Do we go to some sort of hell, or purgatory? What happens to us?

[AoG]

The answer to that can only be found in Gurbani, I think. If I come across a good example that addresses the question, I'll post it here.

But Gurbani does say that this is our only chance. I'll find an example.
 

chazSingh

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Dear AoG Ji

Becoming a Sikh removes one from belief in the mechanism of karma. Even if one still believes in karma, becoming a Sikh removes one from its working, and it is no longer relevant.

May I ask you if you believe in hell? If not, why not, since it's mentioned in Gurbani? And if so, how do you reconcile it with believe in reincarnation?

in my humble opinion...being a Sikh should allow a person to 'acknowledge' and 'accept' that the situation they are currently in is as a result of their own actions (whether those actions can be remembered or not). ... i am where i am because of the things i did...and now its time to go beyond those workings of Maya :)

i say this verse in mind very often... i am where i am because of the things i did.
it helps to rid my mind of blaming others, blaming waheguru etc...i feel lighter as a result and ready for the journey ahead

apologies for jumping on your questions to AoG...
 

Ishna

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Could we also say that I am where I am because I the things I did and not mean it to be a past life?
 

chazSingh

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... okay, what's the catch? :p

no catch...

if we are to take SGGS Ji as the truth...and want to awaken to the other truths it talks about...
we have to accept the rule of the whole show...as you sow shall you reap.

its a difficult thing to do...to accept where you are or what you're going through is as a result of your own actions...especially when its easier to blame someone else..

as i think Original ji put in one of his posts...we are all (our true self, consciousness, little segment of the whole waheguru) individually playing a part of creating the world and this whole experience...waheguru is the creator...and we are not seperate from him...there is only one...and the one comes in many forms in His creation. therefore we are the creators as well....what we sow shall we reap...if we want goodness and wellbeing of all we must sow it

Ego like to blame others...Ego only see's individuals...acceptance that we are where we are because of what we did, is an Ego destroyer...and its the Ego we must dissolve to allow experience of the 'whole' 'waheguru' to manifest
 

Harry Haller

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The question of the thread is
'what is the meaning of realization of god?' well everyone clearly has their own view, some say it is meditation, some say chanting, some carry out rituals and observe traditions, some kill rabbits and go through the entrails, but for me, the realization of god is quite simple, it is the realisation that god is in everything and to treat everything accordingly.

In plain english it means that it is not what you look like, what handwritten birs you have read, what light fantastic you have been tripping, or what 2 year course you are doing, but how you treat your fellow inhabitant. In even plainer english, if you have an agenda, if you think you know everything, if you think you are here to educate, then in my view you have no realization, however, if you are here to humbly serve, to spread happiness, to make people laugh, to forgive, to extend the olive branch, to nurture and encourage without agenda, and to truly see the almighty in everything ,then you have found the realization of god.
 

chazSingh

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The question of the thread is
'what is the meaning of realization of god?' well everyone clearly has their own view, some say it is meditation, some say chanting, some carry out rituals and observe traditions, some kill rabbits and go through the entrails, but for me, the realization of god is quite simple, it is the realisation that god is in everything and to treat everything accordingly.

In plain english it means that it is not what you look like, what handwritten birs you have read, what light fantastic you have been tripping, or what 2 year course you are doing, but how you treat your fellow inhabitant. In even plainer english, if you have an agenda, if you think you know everything, if you think you are here to educate, then in my view you have no realization, however, if you are here to humbly serve, to spread happiness, to make people laugh, to forgive, to extend the olive branch, to nurture and encourage without agenda, and to truly see the almighty in everything ,then you have found the realization of god.

liking this harry ji...

only thing is your first paragraph doesn't detail what people think god realization is, you've just listed tools and methids by which people try to get to god realzation.

love your second paragraph though...

seeing God in everything...wow...that sounds like a great thing...but the question arises...what is seeing?

is it just saying 'i believe god is in everything, so i will try my utmost to be truthful to everyone and look after everyone'

or

is it more than that....real darshan...real feeling of waheguru flowing through your very being where every cell is active with this all so powerful force...

i loved the latest star wars...the way it talks about the 'force' ... i thought 'wow' this is it man...:)
 

Harry Haller

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liking this harry ji...
thank you, that actually means a lot to me

only thing is your first paragraph doesn't detail what people think god realization is, you've just listed tools and methids by which people try to get to god realzation.

ahh sorry, allow me to expand
the one who meditates will find that the realization of god is when they meditate, unexplainable
those who chant will find realisation when they chant, again, unexplainable
those that carry out rituals and traditions will find that realization whilst they are busy ritualising
ditto with rabbit killers
and finally, those that feel realization is when they become an ambassador of god, will find it when they embrace that role.

seeing God in everything...wow...that sounds like a great thing...but the question arises...what is seeing?

its not a great thing, its a bloody nuisance, seeing is putting yourself second to everything else you see
is it just saying 'i believe god is in everything, so i will try my utmost to be truthful to everyone and look after everyone'
words are cheap, no its actions
is it more than that....real darshan...real feeling of waheguru flowing through your very being where every cell is active with this all so powerful force...
nope its not that either, just a feeling you have acted properly and unselfishly, it would have to be would it not? otherwise there would be those that would only be an ambassador of god if it were rewarded, there is no reward. No reward tends to attract the best people! or the most insane.
 

ActsOfGod

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Karma is a Hindu concept, and in that dharma, neutralizing your karma is the way to moksha. It has everything to do with caste, because the lighter your karma, the higher caste you may be born into, and the heavier your karma, the lower the caste.

The concept of karma is not unique to Hinduism. If you are thinking about and referencing the Hindu belief in karma, then yes, there are many incompatibilities with Sikh thought.

However, karma is a central concept in many Indian spiritual traditions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism.

The Sikh view of karma is not the same definition as the Hindu view. It would be worthwhile to investigate how Guru Sahib defines karma, and what place it has in the Sikh philosophy. It is not the same as the other traditions, and it is not the same as the Hindu belief.

Perhaps the use of the same term (karma) is cause for confusion. But karma means different things in different contexts. I have been speaking about karma from the Sikh view, and the Sikh definition, not the Hindu one or any other.

Are you saying there is no hope for us to be Gurmukhs? Isn't that what we're all striving to be?

Not that there is no hope. Just that in our current state, we do not meet the criteria. Nobody knows what the future holds for anyone, so it's entirely possible that anything could happen.

Gravity is a law of physics. It is scientific, can be observed and tested. Karma cannot, and until you can prove it exists, you can't really compare it to gravity.

Gravity is a natural phenomenon. By all measures, gravity is invisible in as far as the eye cannot perceive it. Karma likewise in invisible. It can be observed and tested (if those are your criteria), quite easily by observing cause and effect.

Karma comes from the Sanskrit karman ‘action, effect, fate.’

If karma exists, why can't hell?

The concept of Hell has not been defined in the same way in Sikh thought (as has been in the Judeo-Christian thought) , as far as I have been able to discern. A physical hell, that which you find described in the Abrahamic religions, does not exist in Sikh thought.

It may be a different kind/type of hell, though.

Action/reaction or cause/effect is stipulated many times in Gurbani, clearly describing rebirths and comings and goings in different lifeforms. This cannot be a metaphorical explanation, especially when so much emphasis has been laid upon it.

Ultimately it is only through Gur Prsad that we are able to realise God. No one can force the light-bulb moment.

Of course, nothing is really in our power.

Well, since I'm not sure a "lower life form" can perform good deeds to negate their "bad karma", I can only assume that the suffering of said lower life forms is what negates the karma. I don't know. It's all far too complicated and speculative.

Lower life forms are not held to account for their deeds. Animals do what they do. They hunt eat they're hungry, they sleep when they're sleepy. Ironically, they are closer to the Creator in terms of obeying Hukam than we humans are.

Animals in that sense do what they are to do, they really have no choice. Humans, on the other hand, have free will and can choose. Therefore, we are held to account for our choices. When Guru Sahib says that this is our chance to meet our Maker, then it is a choice that is laid before us. No other life form has this opportunity. That is why it is imperative that we must choose wisely when we have the chance to do so.

But Gurbani does say that this is our only chance. I'll find an example.

Yes, I have read that as well. I cannot explain it in terms of this framework of going through a cycle of births and deaths and ending up as a human again. It requires more thought, contemplation and study by me.

Thanks for the discussion.

[AoG]
 

Harry Haller

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The concept of karma is not unique to Hinduism. If you are thinking about and referencing the Hindu belief in karma, then yes, there are many incompatibilities with Sikh thought.

well it is a bit, they did come up with it
However, karma is a central concept in many Indian spiritual traditions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism.

funnily enough the wikki entry for karma reads

With origins in ancient India, karma is a key concept in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism

please don't tell me your sum understanding of karma is lifted from wikki.....

The Sikh view of karma is not the same definition as the Hindu view
then why call it karma? Given that it was important to distance Sikhism from being another version of Hinduism, why not call it something else? unless all references to karma are actually reference only, rather than validation.

Perhaps the use of the same term (karma) is cause for confusion
without a doubt
But karma means different things in different contexts. I have been speaking about karma from the Sikh view, and the Sikh definition, not the Hindu one or any other.
and how exactly would we know this?
Not that there is no hope. Just that in our current state, we do not meet the criteria. Nobody knows what the future holds for anyone, so it's entirely possible that anything could happen.
You can be a Gurmukh today, right now, it just takes effort and desire.
Gravity is a natural phenomenon. By all measures, gravity is invisible in as far as the eye cannot perceive it
not true, I am sitting here in my shop eating my Cornish pasty, reading the sun and there are squirrels climbing the trees opposite, one of them just fell off in mid jump.

Karma likewise in invisible. It can be observed and tested (if those are your criteria), quite easily by observing cause and effect.

quite easily? Karma can be observed and tested just like gravity? I don't think so, unless you know some really enlightened squirrels.
The concept of Hell has not been defined in the same way in Sikh thought (as has been in the Judeo-Christian thought)

As far as I know, which isn't very far at all, there is no concept of hell in Sikhism, period, again, these were concepts, as Sikhs, we were leaving behind, were we not?

A physical hell, that which you find described in the Abrahamic religions, does not exist in Sikh thought.

It may be a different kind/type of hell, though.

your saying that it is possible that in Sikhism, god punishes us for our actions after death?

Action/reaction or cause/effect is stipulated many times in Gurbani, clearly describing rebirths and comings and goings in different lifeforms. This cannot be a metaphorical explanation, especially when so much emphasis has been laid upon it.

why can't it? there have been many many respected scholars that would disagree with you.

Lower life forms are not held to account for their deeds. Animals do what they do. They hunt eat they're hungry, they sleep when they're sleepy. Ironically, they are closer to the Creator in terms of obeying Hukam than we humans are.
agreed!
Animals in that sense do what they are to do, they really have no choice. Humans, on the other hand, have free will and can choose. Therefore, we are held to account for our choices. When Guru Sahib says that this is our chance to meet our Maker, then it is a choice that is laid before us. No other life form has this opportunity. That is why it is imperative that we must choose wisely when we have the chance to do so.

I don't get this, what is so fantastic about meeting our maker? What happens? do we have a nice cup of tea and bask in our makers glory? is it a bit like meeting the queen? Do we get a photo as well? and a goodie bag?

I met my maker this morning, I was informed what my requirements were for the day, and that was it, off I go to be the best Sikh I can be, sounds to me like your living for tomorrow. Not only do I meet my maker on a daily basis, but I sell computers to my maker, buy newspapers of my maker, give lifts to my maker, I hug my maker, my maker makes me laugh and smile, and sometimes, but not very often, I make love to my maker, don't you?

Yes, I have read that as well. I cannot explain it in terms of this framework of going through a cycle of births and deaths and ending up as a human again. It requires more thought, contemplation and study by me.

Oh I can explain it if you wish, I know I am only a third rate idiot, (not even a first rate one) (actually is a first rate idiot more of an idiot than a third rate one, or the other way round), maybe its about personalities, maybe its about growing, about changing, about your character replacing your personality, so that your personality is true and not false, maybe
 

Ishna

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I've been re-reading the book Teachings of the Sikh Gurus by Christopher Shackle and Arvind-pal Singh Mandair (2005), with this thread in mind.

The book is structured around key themes that reoccur throughout Gurbani. I had a mini AHA! moment yesterday whilst reading it. Hopefully I can convey some of that now. I've really tried to express the concepts in the book without plagiarism. If I have crossed the line, it would be appreciated if someone can tell me so I can correct it. thanks.

Firstly the book talks about time and impermanence. The medium which we experience the sense of separation from our Source is time. Cognizance of the impermanence of things within time is the cause of anxiety and suffering, however since our body is located in time, it is also a gift without which we can't experience life. The nature of time is as an equalizer of fortunes, i.e. the high will fall and the low will rise, throughout time. The book says; "With the obstruction [the habitual tendency we have of obstructing the natural flow of time] removed the mind is freed from its self-imposed bindings, from its immersion in the cycle of birth and death, and from the anxiety of being born into one life-form after another."

Next it talks about mind-self-ego. There is the mind-as-ego which, fundamentally, puts itself as the picture of health and normality, and creates everything else as 'other' (duja) as a external points of reference. This mind-as-ego is where the five theives reside, and is always at odds with the natural state (true home). Importantly to this discussion, the book says here the mind-as-ego is "...consequently subject to continual coming and going through different life-forms."

There is also the mind that has renounced ego (Gurmukh mind, beloved mind).

But Guru Sahib doesn't teach that liberation (in this discussion, "God realisation") come from annihilating the ego, as the ego exists in time. Instead, the key is to battle the five theives/negative tendancies of our ego and "exist-in-the-world as radically interconnected to others." It is removing the ego's sense of 'other' (in the broadest sense of the word, not just other people). This bring the state of sahej.

Next it talks about ethical being (action and grace). Everything exists in time, and everything is radically interconnected when the false "other" the ego posits is overcome. Ethical action is more complex than passive karma and active divine grace.

This book says that Guru Sahib teaches that "karma is a law inherent in the nature of existence". Existence is described as "an unfolding of the One". This is expressed by the metaphor of 'writing' (lekh), and exists in a 'fabric' made of space, time and cause. Any action committed by an individualised ego goes against the "flow of divine writing". Each such scribbles (I'll call them 'bumps of the pen') leave a mark in the fabric. "Instead of simply arising and passing out of existence as would be required by a divine command, these karmic traces accumulate ad prolong the separation between ego and the One."

This book talks about rebirths not being rewards or punishments, but consequences of actions (consequences can arise in this life or the next). Actions are 'karmic seeds' / imprints on the "temporal fabric of the self" (memory) and can be called "tendencies" \ "psychic genes". Repeated actions become tendencies\habits that come out in life\lives unless one can find a way out of this "imprinting process".

The most efficient exit from the process is self-surrender\letting go of ego (becoming Gurmukh), and to stop performing actions from the standpoint of ego. "The actions of a gurmukh arise in spontaneity (sahej) so that worldly affairs take care of themselves."

This is the passage that gave me an AHA! moment yesterday. It requires the background above to come together:

"The intertwined nature of karma and grace, of the gurmukh and the self-willed, is perhaps best illustrated by references in the Gurus' hymns to transmigration and the cycle of births and deaths (6.7, 6.15). Insofar as both the gurmukh and the self-willed must perform actions in time, the cycle of births and deaths provides a mythical perspective on time and life which gives rise to sympathy and respect for all living beings (6.13, 6.14). That all existing things and beings are subject to birth, death and passage between different forms (6.12), means that everything that is and that happens is absolutely interconnected, and the only proper starting point for ethical thinking"
 

ActsOfGod

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well it is a bit, they did come up with it


funnily enough the wikki entry for karma reads

With origins in ancient India, karma is a key concept in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism

please don't tell me your sum understanding of karma is lifted from wikki.....

Well there were multiple sources, over several years of my life. But if you must know, it was The Sikh Encyclopedia

then why call it karma? Given that it was important to distance Sikhism from being another version of Hinduism, why not call it something else? unless all references to karma are actually reference only, rather than validation.

I don't know. Perhaps some references were only for reference to the Hindu version of karma, and perhaps some were describing the Sikh version of karma. I have no idea.

You can be a Gurmukh today, right now, it just takes effort and desire.

It takes more than a combination of effort and desire. If that was all that was needed, there'd be millions of Gurmukhs walking the Earth today.

I suspect you'll say they already are. In which case, your definition of Gurmukh is different than what is described in Gurbani.

quite easily? Karma can be observed and tested just like gravity? I don't think so, unless you know some really enlightened squirrels.

When I was talking about karma in the previous posts, I was not referencing the Hindu doctrine of karma. I was talking about the relationship of cause & effect. This is quite easily observable (simple examples like take a laxative, you'll be running to the toilet, etc.)

As far as I know, which isn't very far at all, there is no concept of hell in Sikhism, period, again, these were concepts, as Sikhs, we were leaving behind, were we not?

The only issue is that it comes up in Gurbani. So this prompts us to ask the questions and that leads one to delve into deeper thought. It's not as simple as saying "oh that's a superstition, it has no place in Sikhism and we're leaving it behind, so I won't think about it, period."

If Guru Sahib has mentioned the suffering in the most hideous hell, or being crushed by Azrael like a sesame seed, then it's quite important for a Sikh to genuinely understand what exactly they meant. It takes some thought, study, and contemplation, does it not? That's what we're attempting to do here (or at least, I hope so).

your saying that it is possible that in Sikhism, god punishes us for our actions after death?

Nope. Well, not quite. We do it all to ourselves via cause & effect.

why can't it? there have been many many respected scholars that would disagree with you.

I'd like to read what they had to say about it, perhaps I'll learn something. Sources?

I don't get this, what is so fantastic about meeting our maker? What happens? do we have a nice cup of tea and bask in our makers glory? is it a bit like meeting the queen? Do we get a photo as well? and a goodie bag?

If that's what you want. According to Gurbani, this is the purpose. If you have a different wish, that is totally fine.

I met my maker this morning, I was informed what my requirements were for the day, and that was it, off I go to be the best Sikh I can be, sounds to me like your living for tomorrow. Not only do I meet my maker on a daily basis, but I sell computers to my maker, buy newspapers of my maker, give lifts to my maker, I hug my maker, my maker makes me laugh and smile, and sometimes, but not very often, I make love to my maker, don't you?

What you have described is perfectly valid, and yes, God is in all and is all. So I acknowledge your experience and respect it. I believe in the same.

But this is not where it ends.

Now it's time for you to go deeper into the rabbit hole.

Oh I can explain it if you wish, I know I am only a third rate idiot, (not even a first rate one) (actually is a first rate idiot more of an idiot than a third rate one, or the other way round), maybe its about personalities, maybe its about growing, about changing, about your character replacing your personality, so that your personality is true and not false, maybe

That's all well and good. Nothing wrong with that, so I agree.

[AoG]
 

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