The Despicable Ego

[Parma]

Yes it is the spiritual war within sorry if i hadent been clear on that. but Physical as well. No man is beyond wrong doing. What makes us pure or as close to perfection as possible? It is constantly trying learning = Sikh. I wanted to educate an pass my exams. I learned studyed hard and in the end I became what I wanted to be. Became the purity of what that job intitled me to do. The sikh is made through the personal chracter and deeds. In the end the sikh is the one who is trying to obtain purity. My dear Harjas there are sick people in the world. The world is full of people doing good and bad things. I am not here to judge anyone. The whole point is for the sikh to find purity. A man must realise his wrong doing and change to become pure. Like the water it can be mixed with animals urinating, peoples blood, dirt from skin. It must be purified for you to drink and for you to live. Same is the air it can be mixed with bad words swears causing people to kill each other, gases stoping you breathing, has to be kept pure to live. Same is your soul it can be mixed with your thoughts ego desires has to be kept pure to find eternal peace. Such is all that is pure. It is for you to keep it pure. Pure is god and beyond as god is eternal exsistance. Answer it is both!

(Is it a Spirtual War within, you are talking about or everything one does and learns?)

Simple view if i can be a educated so can anyone else from anywhere. Some people are beyond help in life but i am talking general always in my views. If I start to talk in depth i would have to go through the whole gurbarni. Which would take my life time. And the guru's have already done this. Just follow it correctly. Now you want me to be clear on how everyone is a sikh. Its like saying the ones who are christians are the ones who follow christ. The ones who are sikh only follow the guru. But the whole point of there teachings were to teach about god not themselves. Its not the person you follow to find god. Our guru's have repeatedly told us. Its the teaching you follow. They are teaching it so you follow there view. Not to start a sect in name of them. People in every religion forget the view of god and go back into believing in the messenger not the message maker. I believe in the guru's ideas philosophies and thoughts. You have to define a difference between the two. Otherwise people will still question who is god the gurus just tought you but it made no sense. They are great gurus I respect them as their teachings have made me a better person. As god is beyond. When guru nanak says you can only find god through me its the teachings he means not the body or form of what he was.
Whats the difference in idol worshipping. Not worshipping god but the teachers. Its like when you do your maths do you remember the teacher that tought you your answer before your reply. You find the answer first then you may thank them later in a prayer to god.

 

[Parma]

Anybody around ???

 

[JtotheAtothe...]

Harjas you write a lot and it is difficult to respond to all that you write (I shall do that in future posts). And Parma has some good points on religion (in general) but is hitting head on walls for reasons unknown to me.

I want to, for now, stick to the question I posed previously: Which is more importat moral order or becoming one with god?

Allow me to extend this question and perhaps clarify my meaning.
And please anyone reading these posts offer your opinion (personal or not)

Would you still pursue achieving moral order even if it meant God is not part of the equation, or would you only extend your hands (only being metaphorical, this has nothing to do with personal greed) to this notion if it relates in some form to God? In this sense, would you rather have moral order (whatever that is, please dont define this, I am being vague on purpose) or rather break from the reincarnation cycle and hence join god in his perfection?

Now stating this, I am not hinting at the process of attaning these goals, but rather the goal itself.

I will also add, even though this can be heavily misinterpreted: would you pursue moral order because the end result is freedom from reincarnation and becoming near God.


Please offer your honest opinion if you can.

 

[Parma]

My answer to that is everyones journey is different. Hitting heads on walls because all i ever get is conflicting views or should i say harjas HA HA. Never any reasoning. Your the first person that has responded in a reasonable manner. In fact your the only person who's ever responded to me apart from "Harjas"!!! I was begining to think that maybe she had made a personel vandeta against me lol. This is all from a 24 yr old, who has seen alot but never lost myself due to my morals, had it hard, had points where it has been easy, had women throw themselves at me but still remained a virgin due to my morals. Grew up with low lives who do allsorts of criminal acts and remained with my morals. Without my morals I may not have been who i am today, may have fallen wrong and may have commited alot of foul acts myself. Road has been hard and and tough to try and remain true, being pure is my ultimate goal. All i can do is try my best. I am young but god is all i want to know. When you experience a peace of bliss its all you want to express. Peace of mind. Still learning, still aint attained it yet fully, still a sikh = learning. But please use reasoning not an im right view puts me off wanting to discuss further only shows ego not compassion. Only god is true. Live life with morals, integrity and dignity with all decisions and in every situation and you cannot go wrong. An old philosophy someone once told me. I am the worst person in the world each day i can only improve. I Dont view myself as good as in my view I can do wrong. Its to find were I am wrong and only try and improve. Be a true sikh=learning

A kind man sat an watched a butterfly as it struggled to free its wings from its cocoon. The man felt compassion and cut the butterfly's cocoon allowing the butterfly to escape freely and easily. The man expected the butterfly to start to fly and move around with ease. Infact niether happened. The butterfly walked around with withered wings for the rest of its life. What the kind man did not realise was the struggle from restricting cocoon was what was needed to allow the fluid from butterfly's wings to spread. So that the wings could expand and allow the butterfly to fly. At times struggles are exactly what you need in life, hard but keep on its what allows you to be you! Let nature take its course

A poor man stole money from a shop, to better himself on his way home his morals dignity and integrity kick in and he doesnt keep the money but gives it to a more worthy cause then him.

(There is also a man who is a priest, has exhaulted himself as all knowing of his faith. Yet whenever he is in his congregation he is having wicked thoughts. Lost the morals integrity and dignity.)

Whatever descision you make use your morals, dignity and integrity. And let nature take its course. GOD IS IN ALL

Who made the RIGHT descision the kind man or the theif?

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

i say harjas HA HA. Never any reasoning. Your the first person that has responded in a reasonable manner. In fact your the only person who's ever responded to me apart from "Harjas"!!! I was begining to think that maybe she had made a personel vandeta against me lol.

Parma, do I ever say anything against YOU as a person? No. I say your opinions are not in accord with Gurmat, and this is why I do not accept them. You say I don't respond in a reasonable manner. What is reasonable? I explain exactly what points you promote that I don't agree with and try to explain why. I can't force you to accept my view anymore than you can force me to accept yours. I don't have anything against you. Why would I? If you have a definition of Sikh that is too broad, and Gurmat teachings have a different definition of Sikh, why is that ego? Why is that unreason?

If you say the Guru is imperfect, makes mistakes, Sikh religion is man-made and thus changeable by your and others opinions, where would it lead?

I don't see why you think everyone would accept your views, or assume people must have hard feelings toward you personally to disagree with them.

Still learning, still aint attained it yet fully, still a sikh = learning. But please use reasoning not an im right view puts me off wanting to discuss further only shows ego not compassion. Only god is true. Live life with morals, integrity and dignity with all decisions and in every situation and you cannot go wrong.

Veerji, if I use the reasoning, that Gurbani says Guru is united with Waheguru and thus cannot make mistakes, you tell me Im using ego. If I tell you the Sikh Rehit Maryada has an entirely different definition of Sikh than you use, you tell me I'm unreasonable. If I explain to you that you cannot have morals or anything else without the Guru's grace, you think I have a vendetta against you. I will not go contrary to Gurmat and cannot accept the opinions as you present them. We can agree to disagree.

Not only God is true, but Guruji is true also since the Shabad-Jyote is Divine manifestation and thus the knowable aspect of God (sargun) on the earth. Not only God is true because the Shabadguru Maharaaj Ji in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is also the sargun manifestation of the Waheguru. Not only God is perfect but Gurbani is also perfect. And not only Gurbani, but Waheguru is also manifest in Panj Piare, and in Akal Takht, and in the Khalsa Panth. So that is one major disagreement we have. I accept as authoritative to speak for the Panth all these other sources, and not just some nebulous definition of my own opinion what God is or wants. Can you at least see where I'm coming from even if you don't agree?

Who made the RIGHT descision the kind man or the theif?

That is a nice story veerji. Remember though, not all religious people are hypocrites. But the ones that are do blacken things for everybody else. I have said in the past even a terrible sinner if he is moving towards Guru is also moving towards liberation. But we are discussing points of Gurmat. And I cannot accept that Gurmat is man-made, subject to error or correctable by opinions of ours.

 

[simpy]

Respected Parma Nagra Ji,

very nice words and thoughts. i humbly think there is nothing wrong in thinking that way, But not recognizing an organized religion(Sikh Dharam/panth)- this is the understanding i always get from your writings. Been reading you, don't think you are being ignored ...

it seems like as you are not understanding the meaning of GURU GOD and WORD OF GURU/GOD(teachings)

any body can follow these teachings without actually turning into an Amritdhari- NO PROBLEMS, i say it is good for them.
but please realize one truth-
for a sikh(a true one)- GURU = GOD = WORD
no difference at all.
for now i am sharing Guru's Bachan on Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji De Panna # 517

Awpy jgqu aupwieEnu kir pUrw Qwtu ]
Awpy swhu Awpy vxjwrw Awpy hI hir hwtu ]
Awpy swgru Awpy boihQw Awpy hI Kyvwtu ]
Awpy guru cylw hY Awpy Awpy dsy Gwtu ]
jn nwnk nwmu iDAwie qU siB iklivK kwtu ]


please think about what Sikhi is in REAL SENSE. you can follow whatever, this conversation is not to impress you to follow anything specific, just sharing with you the Essence of TRUE SIKHI as a Religion.

forgive me please

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Which is more importat moral order or becoming one with god?

Would you still pursue achieving moral order even if it meant God is not part of the equation, or would you only extend your hands to this notion if it relates in some form to God?

In this sense, would you rather have moral order or rather break from the reincarnation cycle and hence join god in his perfection?

Veerji JtotheAtothe, you realize the futility of "either/or" arguments? Your initial question narrows all choices with the fallacy of bifurcation. It is a set up, commonly found in the propagandistic writings of atheists.

EITHER you have moral order....OR you have God...as if the two concepts were mutually exclusive.

Questions like these are designed as a propaganda to break conventional morality from dependance on the concept of God. Since most people who define God, define Him as goodness, purity, morality, truth, justice, the question as it is posed cannot be answered.

Supposing for a moment, we were to accept that there is an energy, a tendancy, a force, that exists in nature like morphic fields that underlies the formation of particular tendancies and directions of growth for living organisms. Like a field of energy imprinting information which tells cells how to divide/heal or even decay, or promotes a genetic evolution for a logical purpose. It is neither unscientific, nor does such a theory of morphogenic fields exclude the concept of God that there is a guiding force in nature evolving living things to betterment.

Morality is more of an interpretation. For example a hurricane which destroys my home and family as an act of nature may have no deliberation of consciousness or requisite intent to cause harm. Deliberation and intent are what we attribute to evil, as opposed to accidental, or involuntary acts. Nonetheless as human beings we do define evil and good and establish values such as morality.

Humanistic atheism is loathe to attach social morality to any definition of God, as if people are inherently moral beings without needing higher guidance. I dare say human beings are out of balance not only with nature but also with spirit. Concepts of altruism and social morality define them in ways selfish to society, as an individualism independant from any spiritual accountablity beyond self-defined "greater good." It is precisely these philosophies which define "greater good" as something beneficial to particular societies, or individuals in pursuit of maximum pleasure which justify the corporate state. Maximum pleasure for the greater number at the expense of the least often translates into dominance and oppression of the powerful against the weak. As a social philosophy there is no morality apart from any individuals own personal choice. This is a philosophy used to justify massive crimes like eugenics, racial selection, human embryo genetic tampering...all because the greater corporate good is detached from accountability to a Higher Spiritual force.

People who talk about spiritual qualities of morality and spiritual discipline are talking about something different from conventional social morality or maximum pleasure. We aren't trying to be good for the sake of promoting social cohesion in the way atheistic humanism defines morality. As you alluded, it is more of a spiritual evolution which seeks transformation beyond the human nature to reunify spiritual essence with Ultimate Reality/God. And views Ultimate Reality/God as the field of moral force creating order/harmony/synchronicity/pattern/evolution out of chaos of our individualistic pursuit of maximum pleasure at the expense of anyone else.

You are aware that the ultimate Humanistic society was Nazi Germany? It was perfectly moral according to humanistic definitions for Hitler to say, "Eliminating 1 diseased man to spare infection of 100 others is a mercy. What became problematic is scapegoating the vulnerable, poor and weak, labeling them parasitic and diseased who had other nationalities, religious beliefs, and appearances. Nazism is a philosophy of maximum pleasure the the greatest number....of people they valued as people. The rest were dasein ohne leben "life unworthy of life." Who defines worthiness and unworthiness according to humanistic definitions? A scientist? A scholar? A corporate conglomerate financially supporting a societal infrastructure? A dictator?

I dare propose to you that humanistic atheism as a moral philosophy is doomed to failure.


Eliminating the disease of Judaism and Communism
http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr64iv_files/nazi_propaganda.jpg

Defining the undesirable
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/wlc/image/17/17608.jpg

Promoting the social ideal
http://guanubian.blogspot.com/images/hitler_youth.jpg

To cleanse disease from society
http://www.hanefesh.com/edu/Holidays/images/a6b.jpg

 

[Parma]

The christian will follow, christ. The hindu will follow idols. The sikh will follow the guru. I could go on with all religions. Who's the one that follows god? (If you say the Guru is imperfect, makes mistakes, Sikh religion is man-made and thus changeable by your and others opinions, where would it lead?)

The message is not changeable. niether have I seen anyting wrong in the gurbarni. I have never mentioned any quotes to make that view, but interpreted wrongly or should i say preached.
God is the only perfection = True
Guru's were imperfect, not god.
Guru is not god = True
And said repeatedly.
Nothing else is perfection but God.
Maybe the the closiest to perfection. We can become pure. Never perfect. You are guranted to do wrong in life how will you know whats right.
Guru is teaching about being pure = True not proclaiming to be god but a way to be pure as when you reach ultimate purity you are one with god.
I thank the guru for what i have learnt and I am learning to be a true sikh PURE. MIND BODY AND SOUL. THATS ALL THE SIKH VIEW IS.
Gurmat is a broad view. Its for every man and women alive not just the one who thinks he/she is pure as they go to the gurdwara.
Organized religion is man made. Sikhism is a way of life so, I can understand why it may have come into organization. Having said that, its not just open to one group one view and limit one mind. Do not call me less of a sikh because I follow a different approach to you. The outcome is the same for the sikh end goal pure.
Purity does not distance its self exsist everywhere. Organizations have order bodies. Bosses. Everyone is equal. In the house of god. Everything needs purity to exsist. Anything that is pure exsits in all. Only polluted with what goes around. Sikhs dont pollutes ourselves with other things focus on god and being pure, Living life with morals dignity and integrity. not whats right or wrong. I think the story I wrote above will confirm that. If following the organised view brings or helps you be pure then carry on.
Only religion that comes close to view god properly is the muslim one.
Only they view with one eye.
Which is when Harjas when I read your views i sometimes feel thats the approach you are taking. A one eye view. The reason why i say you are not reasonable as you always try and answer with the gurbarni. Any man can do that for any view
Now to me that looks like your taking your views as absoulte truth, and using the gurbarni to validate them. To try and make them true. How do you know you are true you are not god. Look at anything pure around you. Can you define anything pure to one word. Purity is indescribable. A true Sikh is pure. The rest I leave for you all to ponder. Like I said i dont expect you to follow what I view to be right. If another view brings you peace of mind carry on. Dont view me as any less of a sikh though, or any other man or women who expresses differently. That is wrong. You dont control the faith. Purity starts from within not out. I am a sikh just not your version of one!

 

[simpy]

Respected Parma Nagra Ji,

just some points - as you say that

niether have I seen anyting wrong in the gurbarni.

and Gurbani doesn't differentiate between Guru and God and God's word(shabad)
and you say this:

Guru's were imperfect, not god.
Guru is not god = True
And said repeatedly.
Nothing else is perfection but God.
Maybe the the closiest to perfection. We can become pure. Never perfect. You are guranted to do wrong in life how will you know whats right.

it is based on what your thoughts are about some thing and Gurbani tells about that as well-
jYsw syvY qYso hoie ]

Respected Parma Ji, this diversity we see is also His Creation, and NOTHING IS IMPERFECT OR IMPURE- THIS IS THE EYE THAT SEES IT.

AND NOTHING IS WITHOUT GOD....
IS THERE ANYTHING WITHOUT HIS PRESENCE????
IS ANYTHING THAT IS HIDDEN FROM GOD????

unlimited amount of people cannot see fellow humans as humans, this is how they look at others.... what to say about the understanding of people about True Gurus.... it is our mindset.
wherever we set it..... and in reality- ALL IS GOD... and Gurbani confirms it, God's Creation confirms it...... Sabh kuch Ohee aapey aap hai Parma Ji.....
Doesn't matter from what point one start believing this. Sikh Religion is also His Creation , you are too, and you can call yourself whatever you like, 'different version' you said....... about Man made approach-A man cannot take the next breath If God doesn't want; hehe; it cannot change the Reality, and it is as much true as those who fake to be Sikhs and they have no quality of a Sikh at all, just outward appearance- most dangerous aren't they{and unfortunately we see this a lot these days}..... and Some people only see that one wrong thing happening around and they tend to wither away from the true Religion, their choice(they are only looking at what is wrong, instead of looking at what is GOOD AROUND, and this way missing the GOODNESS).... Religion prepare us- Descipline us... And there is no better or best, it is the approach of the believer. Anything has to be followed by Pure Heart with True Effort, that's all me neech had to say....

forgive me please

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

The sikh will follow the guru. I could go on with all religions. Who's the one that follows god? The message is not changeable. niether have I seen anyting wrong in the gurbarni. I have never mentioned any quotes...

Parma veerji, the Shabad-Jyote of Guruji is one with all God is. You tell me I'm unreasonable to cite the Gurbani which supports this view. Okay. So admit you don't agree with the Gurbani.

Drin ggn nv KMf mih joiq sÍrUpI rihE Bir ] (1409-11, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
---------------------------------------------------------
Dharan gagan nav khand meh jot savroopee rahi-o bhar.
He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

gur swKI joiq prgtu hoie ] (13-6, DnwsrI, mÚ 1)
------------------------------------
gur saakhee jot pargat ho-ay.
Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth.

You say Guru is imperfect, not God. Yet Gurbani is clearly saying Guru is the Light of God, Guru's teachings shine the Light of God on earth. You say that all religions are man-made and thus false, including Sikhism, and that none of these are following God.

God is the only perfection = True
Guru's were imperfect, not god.
Guru is not god = True
And said repeatedly.
Nothing else is perfection but God.

Yet this statement is in direct contradiction to Gurbani, not even one shabad but so many! So, if it's a point of controversy, and Guru Sahib Ji Himself said Bhai Gurdas was the key to understanding Gurbani, lets see what vaaran of Bhai Gurdas have to say about Guru.

ibn srnI nih koie qrwXw ]ññ]
-----------------------
bin saranee nehi koe tharaayaa ||aa||
Without surrender before the Guru none could get across (the world ocean).
Vaar 1 Pauri 11 Line 8 Bhai Gurdas Ji

So even the supporting vaars say that Guru is necessary to know God. We need Guru to get to God, otherwise it is impossible to obtain salvation, according to Gurmat Gursikhi. Veerji, you go on and on about my opinion. I'm only letting you know that what you are saying is not what mainstream Sikhism teaches. In fact, you are contradicting Sikhism. So why are you saying you follow Gurbani and you are a Sikh, when you do not even read the Gurbani, or believe the Sikh Guru is your path to God? In what way are you a Sikh?

Gurmat is a broad view. Its for every man and women alive not just the one who thinks he/she is pure as they go to the gurdwara. Organized religion is man made.

Gurmat is not a broad view. The teachings of Guruji are open to any man or woman...to conform themselves to. Never did I say Sikhi is only for a select few. I said the Sikh is the disciple who is conforming himself to Guru. Sikhism has always been an organization. It was Guruji Himself who instituted the Panj Piare and the Takhts, seats of authority. While there are some differences of opinion within the Panth, everyone agrees on the basics. You are contradicting the basics.

GURMAT (gur-mat, mat, Sanskrit mati, i.e. counsel or tenets of the Guru, more specifically the religious principles laid down by the Guru) is a term which may in its essential sense be taken to be synonymous with Sikhism itself. It covers doctrinal, prescriptive and directional aspects of Sikh faith and praxis...Guidance received by Sikhs in their day-to-day affairs from institutions established by the Gurus and by the community nurtured upon their teachings will also fall within the frame of Gurmat. In any exigency, the decision to be taken by the followers must conform to gurmat in its ideological and/or conventional assumptions.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurmat

Only religion that comes close to view god properly is the muslim one. Only they view with one eye.

If you believe the Muslims have the only religion which properly views the God, why are you calling yourself a Sikh and not a Muslim? Stop confusing people and promoting Islamic path in the name of Sikh religion. Stop condemning Sikh teaching and promoting the Muslim view of God as most correct.

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Mr Parma,

God is the only perfection = True
Guru's were imperfect, not god.
Guru is not god = True
And said repeatedly.
Nothing else is perfection but God.

I do not believe the above quote can come from a Sikh. You are grossly contradicting your self. You call your self a sikh - a student - one who is here to learn - yet you are capable of making distinctions as to what a Guru is and what God is?. You are personified evil heavily intoxicated with "Kam, Krodth, Lobh, Moh and Ahankar". Do not throw your dirt on others.

Guru is not perfect - yet you follow the teachings of the same Guru. What kind of student are you? How can you then become perfect by learning form an imperfect?

Our Gurus became Gurus when the "Guruship", "Jyot" was transferred to them by the Guru before them. The "Jyot" can only be passed to the person who has become "Sat" - True, Pure, PERFECT i.e. one who has Merged into God. Hence the word "Satguru".

How can one like you living a life in "Vishta" of Maya capable of making such decisions. If you are following your morals, who gave you the morals, who gave you the understanding ? Have fear of God. You do not cut the branch you are sitting on, from the tree.

Harjas Kaur ji,

A Sikh does not do too much according to Gurbani. The likes of Parma are plenty in the world who are lost in the dust. This is not the dust that our Gurus mean. They are the dust that makes others dirty.

There is a saying " Kawaan de kehe dhagge nahi mar jandey" - Meaning if the crow desires so, the Buffalo does not die.

If Parma wants to form his own terminology of sikhism then let him. Why let yourself get dragged down with him. This is the habbit and attitude of his kind. It is very hard to lift onself up in spirituality but very easy to get dragged down. The decision is yours. Watch your steps.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Islamic view of God should not be promoted as more correct than Guru's teaching, saying Guru is imperfect, making mistakes. And is unacceptable not to oppose someone to promote Islamic view as correct and Guru as wrong while using name of Sikh, on a Sikh forum. This is real hatred and intolerance of a self-defined religion being mischevious with it's definitions and distorting them in a repetitive and missionary way.

It's not bashing an individual to confront false teaching and mischief against our Guru's. This is not personal attack or insult of anyone or any religion. It is defense Sikhi against gross distortion promoting an Islamic view in the name of Sikhism. Anyone would speak up. It isn't tolerance to ignore distortions as acceptable. That only welcomes aggressive conversion tactics. What message are we sending, that mischief against our Guru's is acceptable but to refute it is not?

Having self-respect is not the same as a despicable ego. Having self-respect is not the same as intolerance of others. Obviously the missionary mindset intent on undermining and changing definitions of the faith is truly intolerant of the faith targeted for denigration and distortion.

THE DEFINITION OF SIKH

"Any human being, who faithfully believes in
(1) One immortal Being,
(2) Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh,
(3) The Guru Granth Sahib,
(4) The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
(5) The baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru,
And who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh."

THE REAL DANGER

CONVERSIONS INTO ISLAM almost always occur out of a persons IGNORANCE or MISUNDERSTANDING of their own religion. Take time to understand your religion and educate others. The process of conversion is usually very SUBTLE and GRADUAL.

It always occurs by progressively UNDERMINING YOUR CULTURE and RELIGION through misquoting religious texts and falsifying historical events. Be on guard and stop them from speaking lies about your religion be you Sikh or Hindu.

Why I Chose Sikhism

The whole incident highlighted that Gurmat Parchaar is needy in institutions like prisons, hospitals and schools and that every Sikhs needs to recognise his or her duty to know about their religion and defend their faith. Through unity we become stronger and together we can successfully work towards raising awareness of the Guru's Sikhi in the wider public and taking a stand where the Sikh community is attacked.

http://www.panthic.org/news/124/ARTICLE/3145/2007-03-07.html

Although the documentary does not cover the hatred aimed at Sikhs and Hindus, there is growing problem of Muslim extremists in Britain calculatingly targeting the Sikh community. Recently some Muslim extremists have started to spread false propaganda against the Sikh religion by writing misleading and calculated articles on the Internet.

http://www.panthic.org/news/124/ARTICLE/3023/2007-01-10.html

Muslims men would come to our Sikh Society meetings and sit at the back in disguise (wearing a Kara) observing the content of our discussions. They would attempt to talk to the female youth at the Sikh societies...

http://www.panthic.org/news/124/ARTICLE/3161/2007-03-14.html

 

[Parma]

I would like to say again the gurbarni does make a difference between god and guru. Guru nanak say's in the mool manthar. That god is beyond the cycle of birth and death. Placing god to be a guru makes god a person. The guru did not start off the faith to preach about himself but about god. There is a difference between the two. You must realise it. Anyway I've had enough of the discussion. Hope my views have made some people think. I hope they will always be here if anyone who agrees. O yeah p.s. Im not getting invloved with stupidity. Harjas Im not a muslim!! Hard to know who is though yeah harjas ha ha! (joke, DONT OFFEND PEOPLE, TOLD YOU YOU HAD A PERSONAL VANDETA AND IV NEVER EVEN MET YOU! OR ARGUMENTATIVE no reasoning) I would like to make that clear to the whole sikh community. I dont view with one eye niether do I ask for confrontation. Hope you find peace. Take care bye! I know what you mean that guru is not bound to a body. I agree to that. Just dont believe that guru nanak was god. I believe he was pure. Not perfect. Only god is perfect. Only sikhs can be pure. Mr Ajnabi. Guess the loss of you is not great either. I dont speak out of terms from the gurbarni. You just view yourself as right I dont know why do you say them things I dont insult others. You may think that me declaring certian facts is insulting. I only speak from what i know to be the truth. If you dont agree thats ok. No need to insult. You are great men but not men who are great. Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.

 

[simpy]

Respected Parma Ji,

hopefully someday you may also realize that Guru is not bound to a BODY ...
Guru is not limited to anything same as God isn't........ AND THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO, as Guru is one with Nrankaar-that is what made Guru a Guru..

forgive me please

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

Mr Parma

I would like to say again the gurbarni does make a difference between god and guru.

Do not make unnecessary judgements. Yes that statement is true but at the same time Gurbani states consider Guru and Permeshwar one and the same. Upgrade your knowledge. Too little knowledge is very dangerous.

Hope my views have made some people think.

Thinking is required on your side. Your views are of one who needs to be educated and have the experience of Bani. Your views can never be superior to Bani.

I would like to make that clear to the whole sikh community. I dont view with one eye niether do I ask for confrontation.

Work on loosing your EGO. There is no loss or gain from you to the community. It is you who is at a loss. It is you that needs Glasses of Gurmat to see where you are heading.

 

[Parma]

I HAD, HAD ENOUGH OF THIS BUT, THIS HAD TO BE SAID. I know what you mean that guru is not bound to a body. I AGREE TO THAT VIEW. WAHAGURU. The word itself accounts to that view. Just dont believe that guru nanak was god. I believe he was pure. Ulitimate purity. Not perfect. Guru in the terms of god is Wahaguru. Wahaguru in the terms of god is that only god can teach you your way everyones journey is different. Some born in poverty, some born with a silver spoon. Experiences different. Many go to the temple listen to prechar, but listen to a word and not learn. Many pray word on word like a recorder but there words have no affect. (Do all good men fall on deaf ears as good men teached good yet so much bad happens in the name of good.) Many do many things but they dont hold the quality of purity. Living is not just breathing, Its eating, drinking, Working. Being apart of life. The character of who you are and the deeds of what you do. The whole essence of living life not just one aspect. You are life. You can be living and not be apart of life. You can be apart of life yet not living. Examples 1 a person lying in a hospital bed apart of life but not living dying. 2 a person high on drugs out every nite living it large, out of money no sense of home, self, surviving on impulse, no morals or anything, apart of life but not living. Out of the circle of normal life. In the end they all effect the soul as that was pure when you were born. The final outcome of all desions is who you are. If you are at one with yourself you are on the path of being pure. When i'm wrong its my thoughts in god that leads me back to my path. I cannot take the gurbani everywhere I go, but god I can, be pure. As tought in the gurbarni. On how to be pure. Thinking with the mind not the heart. Munn nema, Muth Uchi. When you think with your mind some of my views may make sense. If you think with your heart all that will make sense is your yearning of your heart. Be right, but be right in your own journey dont distort anothers or hinder because something does not follow right to what you valued as a right view. God will show you through your journey. Wahaguru. The sikh definition is learn. Improve your thinking. If I think differently then that is my journey. As god is apart of all. Only god is perfect. Only sikhs can be pure. Mr Ajnabi. Guess the loss of you is not great deal either. I dont speak out of terms from the gurbarni. I've never even quoted from the gurbarni. Mr ajnubi. I've just talked about ideas. You just view yourself as right, I dont know why you say them things I dont insult others. You may think that me declaring certian facts is insulting. I only speak from what i think or know to be the truth. If you dont agree thats ok. No need to insult. You are great men but not men who are great. Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas. Discuss ideas. Before I was born their was nothing. When I die their will be nothing again. Only thing that will remain is my deeds and character. Which if i think deep about is my soul. Which i must furfill purely. With my morals, dignity and integrity. Which is what I learnt from people preaching the gurbarni to me. Even the guru's when they were alive couldnt explain things to all people, many muslims remained muslims many hindus remained hindus, im just a mear person who has experinced the love of the gurbarni. Hope you all do. DONT JUDGE OTHERS.
P.s. When I expressed the muslim view I meant their view that there is only one god. Which is what the sikh view is. Obvioulsy we differ on the rest, but at the time someone was trying to view guru nanak in the same view as god. Its the expression I used to them viewing god right not as guru nanak being god. Please state were guru nanak stated himself as god. It isnt to view many gods or many others who are god there is only one god. Now I go. BYE!

 

[ekmusafir_ajnabi]

I HAD, HAD ENOUGH OF THIS BUT, THIS HAD TO BE SAID. I know what you mean that guru is not bound to a body. I AGREE TO THAT VIEW. WAHAGURU. The word itself accounts to that view. Just dont believe that guru nanak was god. I believe he was pure. Ulitimate purity. Not perfect. Guru in the terms of god is Wahaguru. Wahaguru in the terms of god is that only god can teach you your way everyones journey is different. Some born in poverty, some born with a silver spoon. Experiences different. Many go to the temple listen to prechar, but listen to a word and not learn. Many pray word on word like a recorder but there words have no affect. (Do all good men fall on deaf ears as good men teached good yet so much bad happens in the name of good.) Many do many things but they dont hold the quality of purity. Living is not just breathing, Its eating, drinking, Working. Being apart of life. The character of who you are and the deeds of what you do. The whole essence of living life not just one aspect. You are life. You can be living and not be apart of life. You can be apart of life yet not living. Examples 1 a person lying in a hospital bed apart of life but not living dying. 2 a person high on drugs out every nite living it large, out of money no sense of home, self, surviving on impulse, no morals or anything, apart of life but not living. Out of the circle of normal life. In the end they all effect the soul as that was pure when you were born. The final outcome of all desions is who you are. If you are at one with yourself you are on the path of being pure. When i'm wrong its my thoughts in god that leads me back to my path. I cannot take the gurbani everywhere I go, but god I can, be pure. As tought in the gurbarni. On how to be pure. Thinking with the mind not the heart. Munn nema, Muth Uchi. When you think with your mind some of my views may make sense. If you think with your heart all that will make sense is your yearning of your heart. Be right, but be right in your own journey dont distort anothers or hinder because something does not follow right to what you valued as a right view. The sikh definition is learn. Improve your thinking. If I think differently then that is my journey. As god is apart of all. Only god is perfect. Only sikhs can be pure. Mr Ajnabi. Guess the loss of you is not great deal either. I dont speak out of terms from the gurbarni. I've never even quoted from the gurbarni. Mr ajnubi. I've just talked about ideas. You just view yourself as right, I dont know why you say them things I dont insult others. You may think that me declaring certian facts is insulting. I only speak from what i think or know to be the truth. If you dont agree thats ok. No need to insult. You are great men but not men who are great. Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas. Discuss ideas. Before I was born their was nothing. When I die their will be nothing again. Only thing that will remain is my deeds and character. Which i must furfill purely. With my morals, dignity and integrity. Which is what I learnt from people preaching the gurbarni to me. Even the guru's when they were alive couldnt explain things to all people, many muslims remained muslims many hindus remained hindus, im just a mear person who has experinced the love of the gurbarni. Hope you all do. DONT JUDGE OTHERS.
P.s. When I expressed the muslim view I meant their view that there is only one god. Which is what the sikh view is. Obvioulsy we differ on the rest, but at the time someone was trying to view guru nanak in the same view as god. Its the expression I used to them viewing god right not as guru nanak being god. Please state were guru nanak stated himself as god. It isnt to view many gods or many others who are god there is only one god. Now I go. BYE!

Mr Parma,

Obviousily you did not understand what I said to you in my posts. The problem with you is "Mann Oocha, Matt Neevee" and not the normal way around.
Your reply only re-emphasizes my earlier points. Your whole commentary is contradictory. You are telling me not to make judgements and yet you carry on making judgements. Then you claim you are a student and then you go into a preaching mode followed by a judging mode.

Gurbani is the memory / thoughts / feeling of our Gurus. On one side you are rejecting Gurus/Gurbani as it will not go with you. And then Gurbani tells you how to be pure and that only sikhs are pure ?

Mr Parma you are totally messed up.

Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas. Discuss ideas.

With your intellect, Gurus would have said "Bassey Raho" Stay put in one place. If you move around you will only create more mess.

I am no-body, unknown, non-existant so you can say what you like. But do not Judge Gurus. That is a big FOUL. When you really fall in love with Gurus, only then you will realise and understand what is a Guru and what is God. I will leave you this tuk "Gur permeshwar eko jaan". These are higher flights of spirituality.

I need not reply back to you. You need help!

 

[Parma]

I am not rejecting the gurbarni.
You think with the heart not the mind. So my views are puddled. Who is sain? The one that only can argue. Thats easy even kids can do that. Talk maturely. They called my guru insane. Yet i follow guru nanak whole heartedly. Me saying guru is not god. Is not rejecting guru's teachings. Me saying the gurbarni is right is not going against any of my thoughts. Guru DID NOT CALL HIMSELF GOD. U DISRESPECT GOD> You teach me something other than slanging match.
Meera baba, mai bowra, mai bowra, subb kulck suyarni
Mai bigerrai, bigerrai muth orra. Listen to that shabad Mr Ajnubi.
I'll tell you the difference in our thoughts.

If i were to ask you what you had eaten today you would for examples sake; may say, roti, apple, grapes a whole list of things
In return i would say you eat mitdhi (soil)
You would turn around again and say mr Parma ji I had eaten and go through the list again.
In return I would reply you eat mitdhi
Still you wont understand as to you all you would see is the food but wont realise the source.
So I'll explain.
Before the food, came the mitdhi. The food is from the mitdhi it is grown from a mix of seeds and water. But it takes form and is apart of the mitdhi. Then you will go to the toilet and the food will come out as your feaces and become again once more mitdhi.
To you, your body your mind you had eaten food but when you look deep and at reality in truth its just mitdhi.
I could go on deeper into this and my thoughts. I just feel no one will understand. I know you might find some of it funny. Its just an exmple. The key to my understanding is in the message. Like mr Ajnubi said, Im puzzled but in truth, "Meri sumaj, theri sumaj thow barr yah!" What you cant understand you will call insane, but an insane persons thoughts are beyond yours. Whichever way you look at it. You may not understand them. They can understand you to a degree then they are cought up in there own thoughts again. If you could gain there knowledege you may understand them. They can come into your world but you will never be in there world. You cant understand them thats why people call them insane. IM NOT A TOTAL INSANE JUST A MAN OF THOUGHT. QUIET WELL EDUCATED REALY!
Look at the message.
You go on your path and I go on mine. Wherever you end up hope you find peace of mind.

 

[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

as long as only Ego dwells in the mind, everything and All appears to be devoid of God's presence. Hence DIS-EASE......

And the treatment of this sickness is prescribed by Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Sache Paatshah in Bani right on Panna # 1.

forgive me please

 

[simpy]

Respected SaadhSangat Ji,

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahibaan De Bachan on Ego(in continuation to my previous post today:

hukmI hovin Awkwr hukmu n kihAw jweI ]
hukmI hovin jIA hukim imlY vifAweI ]
hukmI auqmu nIcu hukim iliK duK suK pweIAih ]
ieknw hukmI bKsIs ieik hukmI sdw BvweIAih ]
hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]
nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie ]


suM\I dyh frwvxI jw jIau ivchu jwie ]
Bwih blµdI ivJvI DUau n inkisE kwie ]
pMcy ruMny duiK Bry ibnsy dUjY Bwie ]1]
mUVy rwmu jphu gux swir ]
haumY mmqw mohxI sB muTI AhMkwir ]1] rhwau ]
ijnI nwmu ivswirAw dUjI kwrY lig ]
duibDw lwgy pic muey AMqir iqRsnw Aig ]
guir rwKy sy aubry hoir muTI DMDY Tig ]2]
mueI prIiq ipAwru gieAw muAw vYru ivroDu ]
DMDw Qkw hau mueI mmqw mwieAw k®oDu ]
krim imlY scu pweIAY gurmuiK sdw inroDu ]3]
scI kwrY scu imlY gurmiq plY pwie ]
so nru jMmY nw mrY nw AwvY nw jwie ]
nwnk dir prDwnu so drgih pYDw jwie ]4]


isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
BlI srI ij aubrI haumY mueI Grwhu ]
dUq lgy iPir cwkrI siqgur kw vyswhu ]
klp iqAwgI bwid hY scw vyprvwhu ]1]
mn ry scu imlY Bau jwie ]
BY ibnu inrBau ikau QIAY gurmuiK sbid smwie ]1] rhwau ]
kyqw AwKxu AwKIAY AwKix qoit n hoie ]
mMgx vwly kyqVy dwqw eyko soie ]
ijs ky jIA prwx hY min visAY suKu hoie ]2]
jgu supnw bwjI bnI iKn mih Kylu Kylwie ]
sMjogI imil eyksy ivjogI auiT jwie ]
jo iqsu Bwxw so QIAY Avru n krxw jwie ]3]
gurmuiK vsqu vyswhIAY scu vKru scu rwis ]
ijnI scu vxMijAw gur pUry swbwis ]
nwnk vsqu pCwxsI scu saudw ijsu pwis ]4]


isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
suix mn imqR ipAwirAw imlu vylw hY eyh ]
jb lgu jobin swsu hY qb lgu iehu qnu dyh ]
ibnu gux kwim n AwveI Fih FyrI qnu Kyh ]1]
myry mn lY lwhw Gir jwih ]
gurmuiK nwmu slwhIAY haumY invrI Bwih ]1] rhwau ]
suix suix gMFxu gMFIAY iliK piV buJih Bwru ]
iqRsnw Aihinis AglI haumY rogu ivkwru ]
Ehu vyprvwhu Aqolvw gurmiq kImiq swru ]2]
lK isAwxp jy krI lK isau pRIiq imlwpu ]
ibnu sMgiq swD n DRwpIAw ibnu nwvY dUK sMqwpu ]
hir jip jIAry CutIAY gurmuiK cInY Awpu ]3]
qnu mnu gur pih vyicAw mnu dIAw isru nwil ]
iqRBvxu Koij FMFoilAw gurmuiK Koij inhwil ]
sqguir myil imlwieAw nwnk so pRBu nwil ]4]

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
mrxY kI icMqw nhI jIvx kI nhI Aws ]
qU srb jIAw pRiqpwlhI lyKY sws igrws ]
AMqir gurmuiK qU vsih ijau BwvY iqau inrjwis ]1]
jIAry rwm jpq mnu mwnu ]
AMqir lwgI jil buJI pwieAw gurmuiK igAwnu ]1] rhwau ]
AMqr kI giq jwxIAY gur imlIAY sMk auqwir ]
muieAw ijqu Gir jweIAY iqqu jIvidAw mru mwir ]
Anhd sbid suhwvxy pweIAY gur vIcwir ]2]
Anhd bwxI pweIAY qh haumY hoie ibnwsu ]
sqguru syvy Awpxw hau sd kurbwxY qwsu ]
KiV drgh pYnweIAY muiK hir nwm invwsu ]3]
jh dyKw qh riv rhy isv skqI kw mylu ]
iqRhu gux bMDI dyhurI jo AwieAw jig so Kylu ]
ivjogI duiK ivCuVy mnmuiK lhih n mylu ]4]
mnu bYrwgI Gir vsY sc BY rwqw hoie ]
igAwn mhwrsu BogvY bwhuiV BUK n hoie ]
nwnk iehu mnu mwir imlu BI iPir duKu n hoie ]5]18]

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
ieku iqlu ipAwrw vIsrY rogu vfw mn mwih ]
ikau drgh piq pweIAY jw hir n vsY mn mwih ]
guir imilAY suKu pweIAY Agin mrY gux mwih ]1]
mn ry Aihinis hir gux swir ]
ijn iKnu plu nwmu n vIsrY qy jn ivrly sMswir ]1] rhwau ]
joqI joiq imlweIAY surqI suriq sMjogu ]
ihMsw haumY gqu gey nwhI shsw sogu ]
gurmuiK ijsu hir min vsY iqsu myly guru sMjogu ]2]
kwieAw kwmix jy krI Bogy Bogxhwru ]
iqsu isau nyhu n kIjeI jo dIsY clxhwru ]
gurmuiK rvih sohwgxI so pRBu syj Bqwru ]3]
cwry Agin invwir mru gurmuiK hir jlu pwie ]
AMqir kmlu pRgwisAw AMimRqu BirAw AGwie ]
nwnk sqguru mIqu kir scu pwvih drgh jwie ]4]20]

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
Brmy Bwih n ivJvY jy BvY idsMqr dysu ]
AMqir mYlu n auqrY iDRgu jIvxu iDRgu vysu ]
horu ikqY Bgiq n hoveI ibnu siqgur ky aupdys ]1]
mn ry gurmuiK Agin invwir ]
gur kw kihAw min vsY haumY iqRsnw mwir ]1] rhwau ]
mnu mwxku inrmolu hY rwm nwim piq pwie ]
imil sqsMgiq hir pweIAY gurmuiK hir ilv lwie ]
Awpu gieAw suKu pwieAw imil sllY sll smwie ]2]
ijin hir hir nwmu n cyiqE su Aauguix AwvY jwie ]
ijsu sqguru purKu n ByitE su Baujil pcY pcwie ]
iehu mwxku jIau inrmolu hY ieau kaufI bdlY jwie ]3]
ijMnw sqguru ris imlY sy pUry purK sujwx ]
gur imil Baujlu lµGIAY drgh piq prvwxu ]
nwnk qy muK aujly Duin aupjY sbdu nIswxu ]4]22]