Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

The Despicable Ego

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by JtotheAtothe..., Mar 27, 2007.

  1. JtotheAtothe...

    JtotheAtothe...
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    I declare I am a developing atheist.
    I am a receding egoist.
    I am a rebel at heart.


    For the past 5 years of my life I have constantly analyzed myself and have realized the roots of my problems to be rooted within myself. Through my carefull, careless poring over my self, I have often struck out against the adamanitum wall of religion. I have often found great hypocrisy in other religions and with great regret (not really), I have found a great philosophical and physical problem in Sikhism (Yes, I am a sikh child, teenager to specific for all you looking into my teenage angst).
    To the point now: in my sporadic attendences at the local Gurudwaras and several Gurmukhi Camps, I have heard from the Bhai Sahab many lectures (too dramatic?) on Homein (Ego). I realized that Sikhism places great emphasis on the evils of Ego. I also realized that I was greatly egotisitc.

    Over the years I have worked hard within to fight off the evil and vile ego (no, I am not implying sarcasm). I have become far humbler now than I was that first day at the camp when it dawned upon me that ego was my problem, that I was fighting everday a losing war against with the other me.
    Anways, the problem, one I pose to you all is: Ego implies a aserting a distinction between you and me. Ego is identity. Ego is in its barest the only idea which make one, one. Lets forget all condescion and the usual.

    The key facet ( if only from a physical standpoint) of Sikhism, the hair, the turban, etc. clearly identify us Sikhs from all people (at least the Majority). How is that since the Gurus preached us to reduce Ego, they later make us distinct. Not blaming them, why is that where ever I go in Sikh society, the import of our Sikh Identity (you know what I speak of) is so highly touted, romanticised, and brainwashed into us. Aren't we, by the idea of Ego, all the master egotists if we flaunt our turbans, kesh, etc. as a symbol of us. Or is this modern flaunting just our displacement against a world which has moved away from the naturalist theologies?




    ----------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------


    ----------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Pride and Ego Blogs Oct 17, 2015
    A Little EGO May Be A Good Thing By IJ Singh Sikh Sikhi Sikhism May 6, 2015
    Plato’s metaphors: The Chariot Allegory Spiritual Articles Apr 3, 2014
    USA Prof. Nirvikar Singh: Attacks on US Sikhs hard to classify into one category Breaking News Oct 11, 2013
    Heritage Sikh Revolutionaries: The Ghadar Party's Oregon Roots History of Sikhism Mar 31, 2013

  3. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    1,308
    Likes Received:
    54
    Dear Freind ( your name bit difficult!!)

    welcome here

    I just raed your post I must say all your observationsare fantastic and I almost agree with most of them

    Just the few things that instantly came to my mind.=.=.=

    one cant fight ego although we can channel it .=

    Ego diguises to take shap=es and the very means to fight it become egoistic itself

    It can only disolve when the universal force /God want it to happen till this happen it enjoy it !!or may be tame it for good

    I dont agree with this explanation ( usually given by sikhs)that physical symbols are there ONLY to make us stand out for others Instead may be for ownself as a reminder of something( So Debatable.=.=.=.=)


    It too late in night so I think thi it for now .=.=may be more tmr.=



    Any way I just felt like recommending you a very nice book to read .

    THE NEW EARTH - BY ECKHART TOLLE I think you will surely like it



    Jatinder Singh
     
  4. JtotheAtothe...

    JtotheAtothe...
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well I really thought that this matter was important. Judging from the replies, I guess I am mistaken and a misled dolt.

    Perhaps, I will look up that book that DR. K suggested.
     
  5. S|kH

    S|kH
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    29
    Hey hey, don't get that demoralized.

    Now, you bring up a very valid question, and an interesting one.

    The sole difference here is, we are not "supposed" to flaunt based on turban, tied or untied beard, gelled beard, the bigger the pugh, the "more sikh" you are.

    But, in reality, its there. So is the caste system. So is gender discrimination. So is a bunch of other issues in our society.

    Can you be ego-less and still identify yourself as one? Yes, because your supposed to be "in touch with God" and not altering your body, hence where kesh comes in. It's all a mix and match.


    Now, although I'm an atheist, I keep my kesh and the whole 9 yards because they interest me.
    I also, with some sikh friends, joke around about how in our community, the more "hardcore" you are, the more your dhari isnt tied, the more your pugh is circular. We joke because its the exact opposite of anything any western civilization has ever marketed or produced, and we love it.

    Do we suffer from ego? Oh, of course. See us on the basketball court one day, and its absolutely nuts.

    The thing though is, keeping kesh, and doing all that is relatively easier than controlling ones ego to a point where they can identify themselves as one, yet be ego-less. Hence, why you see alot of keshdhari sikhs with big egos.

    Your attempting to compare a step 1 to a step 9. When most people die off at step 3.

    You see a couple here and there, but thats why there has only been a couple gurus here and there.
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Respected JtotheAtothe

    More than most people you will meet in a life-time, because you have a well-developed ego. Let's not say it is a "despicable" ego, but rather a problematic ego.

    Ego, and eventually a concept of self as an individual, a separate person with an independent sense of identity, does not become apparent until late in infancy (around 8 or 10 months) when we notice that all the objects and people around us don't vanish permanently, but just disappear for a time, when they go away. Our toys, pets, parents continue to exist even when we cannot see them right there in front of our eyes. Psychologists call this "object permanence" and it is one of the earliest concepts to develop in a child, and it shows that a baby is developing a memory. Young children don't start to cry when they are separated from their mothers until they realize that they are SEPARATE, SEPARATED. This is the beginning of I-Thou in its most basic form. Separation causes anxiety.

    A sense of yourself as a separate self however is essential to further mental develoment. Children learn to solve problems only when they can separate or analyze the parts of a problem and look for connections. They must also be able to see themselves as distinct from all the objective elements in a problem. They cannot understand what it means to share until they can make the distinction between what is mine and what is yours. They cannot be kind or generous until they understand that if I am sad when you hit me or take my toys, then you must also be said when I do a bad thing to you. This is the begining of Ego (I am not You or It), the beginning of intelligence, the beginning of duality. Without Ego intellectual development cannot take place.

    In a similar way, we cannot get to God until the moment when we discover that we are separate and separated from God, and we feel at some level the anxiety of this separation. Our ego separates us. This is the I-Thou duality in adulthood, and this form of duality becomes a problem for people who are convinced that there is a God and wish to engage God in a personal way. Sidh Gosht visits this theme many times. Here again Ego is a pre-requisite.

    A small child learns kindness by bridging the gap between you and me through empathy, seeing and feeling another's point of view. A gap cannot be closed unless there is a gap in the first place. We cannot close the distance, our separation from God, until we realize that we are separated from God. We meditate because we realize that duality is getting in the way of having a spiritual exchange with God.

    I am reminded of the story of the 4 mystics who were visited by God. Three of them in turn talked about the depth of their devotion and God did not seem to hear or care. The 4th man said nothing but just opened his arms. And God came over to him and embraced him.

    Respectfully
     
  7. JtotheAtothe...

    JtotheAtothe...
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a good point you make. We are psychological creatures. You are obviously highly knowledgeble yet side-step the issue at hand.


    hahaha, man that is so deep in the most comic way. Very interesting metaphor.
     
  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    JtotheAtothe

    Ego implies a aserting a distinction between you and me. Ego is identity. Ego is in its barest the only idea which make one, one.

    You are positively on target. Then the next step is to recognize whether you want to go beyond Ego. There is no predicting if and when that happens. Then you seek to end that feeling of separation. Not everyone feels this need. Those who do often find themselves meditating.

    Respectfully
     
    #7 spnadmin, Apr 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2007
  9. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    The ego is a tool for interacting in the real world. When you push the ego too hard, it fights back as something called "a shadow." In psychology, the shadow nature is something you're not even conscious of. But recklessly trying to push unconscious your panj vikaars, the shadow grows more powerful. If you drive yourself too hard before you are ready, you create more problems. Actually, harshness towards the ego doesn't make someone loving and good...it can break their mind and heart and create cruelty. A lot of the problems you see today in world religions are because of this disconnection in the heart and mind caused by wrong approach in spiritual discipline.​
    Veerji, you won't become more loving, more filled with light if you're always beating yourself up as vile and unworthy. At the same time, you are correct, you want to master your panj vikaars. To become a master of something is not to become a tyrant of anything. Simply move in your life with greater understanding of human nature. That's the path to mastery. ​
    Take every one of the 5 evils, and understand that when purified by spiritual practices, those are your 5 strengths. So the goal is really more of transformation. Anger, for example, has the power to destroy the innocent. But transformed, it has the power to give strength and determination to the oppressed to no longer tolerate victimization. Simply to eliminate anger, you will lose a fundamental part of your own will. The more anger is purified, the less you are vulnerable to instinctive reacting to provocation, the less you corrupt your spiritual practice. If you beat up your own ego, your own imperfect humanity, how in the world will you treat other people? Train the mind as you would train an unruly child. ​




    1. As they say, the fruit falls from the tree when ripe. If you aren't prepared, losing ego boundaries is something very destabilizing. You will only become psychotic. About 99% of the human population isn't ready for this kind of experience. Don't force it. Thats why they say spiritual discipline is like walking the razor's edge, because it's so easy to destroy yourself.


    Why would Guruji make us distinct if the goal is to merge?​

    Okay, back to particles again. Every particle of your being already contains within it the properties of a wave, something which is indistinct, interconnected, united with all that is. Yet, because of the dual nature, it is also a particle manifesting it's distinction. Just look at the world around you. What do you see? You see a multiplicity of forms. You see ants, and birds of every color. You see all kinds of trees, all kinds of clouds, etc. The world is a dance of individuality. Individuality isn't bad. In fact, it's precious. But, despite all these seeming distinctions, underlying the core nature of every being is the same energy, the same life force, the same spiritual light.​
    Spiritual practice doesn't mean you blur distinctions as though merging with absolute was some kind of rejection of what is. It just means you are able to see beyond appearances. Merging with the absolute has a very interesting equation. The Buddhists talk about parinirvana as merging into this field of being, shunyata, or emptiness. But shunyata as a concept isn't only emptiness. It's the unification of light and emptiness, so it's 2 mathematical equivalents...everythingness and nothingness. It is the multiplicity of diverse life, and at the same time creative potential. Like nirgun and sargun natures. One is manifest and the other is unmanifest. Anyway, the point, although there is a merging, implying loss of distinctions, there's also everythingness as well that you take into your heart with piare. So you become one not with dissolution but with life-force itself.​
    There is so much misunderstanding about the panj kakkars. they are not a ritual, they are not a symbol we cling to superstitiously, they are not a focus of ego, they are not a burden.​
    When we take amrit, the panj kakkars become a part of who we are, our new identity. We take on the form of Guruji's saroop. How can you be egotistical, when you are taking pride in the appearance of the Guru's own roop? Does Guru's bana belong to your ego? Is it the same as plucking your hairs, shaving your dhaari? Wearing make-up? Is it some kind of egotistical based appearance like that? Or does every Singh and Singhni take on this same roop that belongs to Guru?​
    People are still corrupt, egotistical, vain or whatever. But the Guru's roop is the Guru's roop, that's why we love it so much. Little children like to see the great King in themselves. And in this case, people are a lot like little children. But Guruji has made us his little children. And we have opportunity to grow up (mature spiritually) and become great like He is, because His very presence is with us. We are trying to become the Divine dignity of the King, not the egotism of the "I." So please be patient with the Singhs and Singhnis, we are only people just like you are. Everyone is at their own stage of development.​
    If you were to compare any other fashion with Khalsa bana, I hardly think anyone will be thought as the supreme egotist who has the same style of dress as everyone else. I think what is happening, there are so few real Gursikhi Gurudwaras. That it seems if you find someone in bana he is sticking out like trying to be holier than everyone else. But if you visit Gurudwaras with a lot of chadi kala Singhs and Singhnis, that distinction fades away. We are all brothers and sisters. The ego is submerged in the Guru's roop. Especially you put keski on the head of a Singhni, she is not really being egotistical about her appearance. It's more of a discipline to limit your appearance in this way. And when you do stand out in a crowd, definitely you are standing against all the fashions that flatter the ego.​
    just compare:​
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Wahe guru, Harjas ji! Wahe guru, wahe ji!
     
  11. simpy

    simpy
    Expand Collapse
    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    126
    Harjas Ji,

    a good one

    forgive me please
     
  12. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    262
    l;kjdvlkjf
     
  13. JtotheAtothe...

    JtotheAtothe...
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, so smart. I sure would like to meet you someday.

    I never thought of the physics stuff this way. The superstring theory can explain God. But then again, is god the string, or the string the god.

    Naturally i can raise a question that you have prbly hear a billion times, a cliched question i am sure: Is our God, as sikhs, different from other religion's gods; ours concerned more for the appearence of his constituents?

    Its a trap isnt it. Either way you go, you are concerned.
     
    #12 JtotheAtothe..., Apr 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2007
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    JtotheAtothe ji

    Yes there is a lot of talk to provoke thought in this thread.

    Parma ji

    I don't understand the meaning of "l;kjdvlkjf". Probably the only one who doesn't. Would you clear that up for me?

    Respectfully
     
  15. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    262
    Yeah the Sikh identity was given, but it isn’t to distance ourselves from the world. The Sikh teaching is to be pure. That is pure of the mind body and soul. Its that simple, nothing else. My brothers and sisters if you are pure of the mind body and soul, then you are not a Sikh then you are divinity. God holds you close. That’s why guru gobind ji said where there is five of my guriskh there you will find me. Only god can judge you. Does not mean you have your own laws but you do make your own decisions try to make your decisions with your mind and not with your heart. Keep clear with the teachings of the gurbarni. This is the only religion made for all mankind not to be distanced. To be pure brings you close to all humanity. All living things need purity to live. Like water you can drink it, yet you cannot describe it sweet or sour indescribable. Beyond the purity of water is air, you cannot smell it, its transparent, not visible unless mixed indescribable. No solid description. Beyond that purity would be your soul you can feel it yet it is invisible untouchable indescribable. Beyond all that is god exists in all purities yet is beyond that indescribable. That’s why the Sikh is defined as a purity reaches beyond colour creed or race. All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all. Most of all god. Not distanced. The hindu is the one who calls himself the hindu. The muslim is the one who calls himsilf the muslim. The sikh is the one who says, no my brother and sisters we are all one there is only one god. Learn to appreciate god properly. Many sikhs are trying to force this one eye view that they know what is right because they read the gurbarni and know gurmukhi. I could also read from the same holy book and to make my conclusion seem more valid write out quotes. It would not mean what i was preaching would be right. View the message, words can be choped and changed to maintain any level of argument. A man writes I am gay. Would you take the view he is homosexual or he is happy. To me it would mean happy! (I m not gay OK. Just getting a point across) Take in the message dont frown upon right or wrong. How do you know you are right? You are not god! Use reasoning, what is good for me and you must be good for god. What hurts you and me must also hurt god. As god is apart of us all. Remember that. Value equal. God does not just exsist in appearance. Exsistance is pure.
     
  16. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    The world is maya. The Sikh is totally set apart in every way.

    color, caste are no bar to becoming a Sikh. But someone who professes another creed cannot become a Sikh according to Rehit Maryada. For one thing it's irrational. If you have contradicting beliefs and loyalties, how can you become the Guru's Sikh? No one can appreciate God properly, because God is beyond the comprehension of human beings. That's why we need a Guru. To have a Guru means we try to follow what the Guru teaches as a disciplined spiritual practice. Guru says get up for amrit vela and chant Naam. Guru says take isnaan when you get up. The practices and discipline are clear. How can anyone say Guru didn't say what we can go look up and see that He said? Or are you writing your own Gurbani? That broad definition is like saying a child molester is a Sikh because all are one in one religion. Once you do some wrong thing like that...you are NOT a Sikh.
    You seem to forget that Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is only one manifestation of Guru. The entire Khalsa Panth is also Guru. The Panj Piare are also Guru. There is authority of Guru in the Takhts. So if Sikhism as a Panth has defined Sikh identity, and you contradict it, you are not right. To see human beings as brothers and sisters because Akal Purakh is in every living being is not the same as saying there is no such thing as Sikh identity. Sikh identity is very distinct. Guru gave us this identity.

    Now if the recognized authorities of the Khalsa Panth, the Panj Piare, the Takhts, the Rehi Maryada, the Jathedars have all accepted a definition of Sikh identity based on Gurbani, based on vaaran of Bhai Gurdas, based on Rehitnamay, based on decisions of Panj Piare and hukamnama, based on what the Panth collectively decides. What validity is a private opinion not supported by any quotation to even prove it's Panthic source? Even my opinion is wrong if it doesn't coincide with Panthic sources of authority. Sikhism as a religion has a very clear identity. No one can authoritatively say, "All men are Sikhs." You can say it, but it won't be true. It won't be recognized or accepted by the Panth. Because such a broad definition discredits Sikh identity, and it contradicts the Rehit Maryada. Sikhism is not any religious belief in the world, or any person who appropriates the name of Sikh.
    You don't have any quotes because you are saying only your opinion. Anyone can investigate the sources of this information. I can say you are wrong, you can say I am wrong. But the truth is, anyone can investigate for himself what the Panthic definition of a Sikh is.

    By the way, doesn't it seem odd that a Sikh/disciple of Guru would not read Gurbani which is Guru's own words and just accept a conclusion from his own mind as what Guru is saying without comparing it to accepted Panthic opinion?

    ~Bhul chuk maaf karni Ji
     
  17. JtotheAtothe...

    JtotheAtothe...
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yea, your are all right. But let me ask you, which is more important : achieving moral order(purity and all that) or becoming one with God (in whatever phrase you want to put that)?

    Secondly, like i put it first, how do you explain that christians have their god (with his own unique traits if you think we pray to the same god), the jews have their own god, muslims have their own god, and hindus have multiple gods?

    Someone did say that
    which is quite an arrogant view.

    and

    someone said
    Which is quite interesting, as was said i might not be right and you might not be right. Who is to say the Panth(if that is what Panthic come from, or is it pantheism) is right? Didn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji break away from a "Panth" of Hindus when dispersing his message. Yes he combined a bunch of ideas, but he in essence did contradict by differing. You cannot say that he was special as you clearly said:

     
  18. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Achieving moral purity inner and outer is required to come into the presence, the darshan of the God. Without purifying all the bad qualities we have within us, all the darkness that obscures the mind and consciousness and causes us to cling to fake things, reactions and troubles will keep us in bondage. We won't see the Pure Light until we're Pure like that Light. Just because someone is following a spiritual path doesn't mean their perfect now, or holier than anyone else. It's just a practice, and the spiritual practices help to lift the atma, purify the conciousness and help you reach a level where jeevan mukti is possible. If someone is immoral, or amoral, those predispositions and attitudes are like a door through which the mind permits suffering situations to come into being. In other words, the person actually gives permission to himself to do something which causes suffering to another. Like it is said there are 5 gates that bring hell to the world, anger, lust, worldly attachment, greed, and egotism. Unless we are able to purify and transform these inclinations, we fall into trap of darkness and suffering again and again. Also when the atma has suffered traumas, these painful memories also obscure the light within. So there are skandas and kleshas and all kinds of scars on the soul from ages of suffering. The true nature of the soul is light. And we have to do the work of washing all this darkness away so the light within us will shine and we have darshan of Waheguru.

    So it is not possible to just "merge with Divine" and not do the inner work of transformation by purifying the pains and suffering qualities. And no one really can even do it. You have to have Guru to help clean all these deep things we aren't even conscious of and guide us to the God. Guru will give you the Naam. Chanting on this Naam is the path home.

    Well, Im not even sure of the context of this quote. But not all men are Sikhs. And not all Sikhs are Gursikhs. But basically, it doesn't require anything special or any great goodness on our part. Even terrible sinner, if he sincerely cries out to Guru will receive Guruji's kirpa and blessings and be well on his path to house of Guru. So really the power and the blessing of liberation from the ocean of suffering is all Guru's grace. No one is a special person, only some are better able to reflect the Guru's darshan. But everything belongs to Guru. Every grace is gift from Guru.

    Don't forget the Buddhists who don't even believe in God. What is to explain? There have been different ages, and different spiritual paths for the people. All religions ultimately come from the One Lord Waheguru, but not all spiritual paths have the same destiny. Just read what Gurbani says about the gods and compare to the One Lord Waheguru.
    The difference is Everything has its existence in the Waheguru, even gods. But only Waheguru is beyond all these things. There are countless realms, there are hell realms and places like this world, there are different heaven realms and places of light. The gods give a blessing to their devotees. But only Guruji can take you beyond even the realm of the gods. That is why Sikhi is a very special path. It is like the end path, the one given by God when all the other paths are failing in the evil era, all the legs on which religion stands have collapsed except one. And that leg is chanting the Lord's praises.

    Gurbani says that even these gods will have their end and have fallen into the corruption of time. They can only take you as far as they can go. But Guru can take you to Waheguru, past all the heaven realms into beyondness and the indescribable.





    All these gods have an end. Only Waheguru is without end. Even the gods and heavenly beings have fallen into corruption. And all of them sing the praises of the Waheguru.

    There is an imperishable Lord and an imperishable true place where the bodies duality is lost and merging union with the unstruck sound is obtained. In physics we learn that at higher vibrations Light is Sound. So the Shabad-Jyote as a concept is actually a mathematical reality. These higher dimensional realities are something a human being can actually ascend to. And that is what the Gurbani is saying, the devotee's who reach this state are a part of infinite reality and cannot change, fade or pass away. The gods last a long time, they are much higher dimensional beings than we are. But higher still is Waheguru, and He alone can merge the Gursikh into that infinity by the grace of Satguruji who is His very own sargun saroop, Shabad-Jyote. Guru is God's very Light on this earth.

    I believe Panth is a Marathi term from Pantha: which means, the "path" or the "road" "way of living of the community" or Panthi: "A disciple or follower of any leader in religion" and also means "Share of a common concern." So Panth refers to the entire Sikh sangat. The Khalsa Panth specifically refers to the entire body of amritdhari Sikhs. It has nothing to do with Pantheism which comes from the Greek language "Pan" meaning all things, and "Theos" meaning God, or literal translation, God is in all things.


    Are you saying Guruji broke away from Hindu Panth to form some new sect, combined a bunch of ideas and contradictions and was not special in any way?

    Because this understanding is clearly incorrect. Guruji in every Shabad-Jyote manifestation of the 10 human forms and finally residing in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj has given a new spiritual path to the world by Waheguru for this dark age. It isn't combining a bunch of ideas. It's a complete and uniquely new religion. Guru is special because Guru is the one who understands and is merged in the nirgun and sargun aspects of Waheguru. Only He Himself knows Himself. Guru is the gift of deliverance for mankind for this age.




    ~Bhul chuk maaf karni Ji
     
  19. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    262
    Harjas your just an argumentative person. So Lets say your right. I agree with all you say. I become a hardline dude like you. "O Mighty 1" lol. Wont bring me closer to god. You dont understand do you. Being pure brings you closer to god as god is pure. (All men are Sikh learning to be pure and become one with all. which is quite an arrogant view.) Its true view though! You have defined the faith to yourself. OK, if I quote from the gurbarni, which I can do I can definatly find it translated in english on the internet. Will it make my arguments seem more valid to you! You can use words, and yet have no meaning. I have learnt my way through the gurbarni and people preaching it right. Not like a hard stone as harjas tries to throw onto me. No one is willing to carry a burden its how you make the religion feel. Everyone wants to be liberated. The sikh religion was made so men could exsist in normal life and still believe in god. Not to change and follow codes. Like I said before the only perfect thing is god makes all else in-perfect. Peace of mind. With all your rights and wrongs I would always be questioning when am I right and when am I wrong, and when would I find time to exhault my thought to god. I would never able to attain peace. You follow your view and I'll follow mine. Your path is hard like the stone. mine is free like the air. WEEEE! I follow the gurbarni. Just not your interpretation of it. Life is a journey to peace of mind. Everyones journey is different. But the path is the same to be pure. There is only one god. Many people speak of god in many names. Guru nanak's perception is the best view. Thats all. God is a purity exsists in all like water, air, soul, beyond description. I give up on you lot. When you bang your head on a stone all it does is hurt!
     
  20. sachchasoda

    sachchasoda
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2007
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    2
    Respected Parma Nagra ji,

    All the rest is fine, but calling everybody a Sikh, how you define it. I been reading your posts, can you please elaborate it a little for me.

    Is it the Spiritual War within, you are talking about or everything one does and learn?

    SaadhSangat Ji bhul chuk maaf karna ji.
     
  21. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    18
    Argumentative implies combative , contentious , disputatious , quarrelsome.

    This is a forum open for discussion, debate and disagreement. So rather than attach a negative personal quality to me, why don't you just stick to the issues we are debating? I don't agree with you at all because you contradict Gurmat Gursikhi. That doesn't make me a negative person.

    I am not the author of Gurmat teaching. But I do try to conform my opinions to Gurmat teaching. Guruji is the author of Gurbani and Gurmat, and yes, He is the Mighty One.

    You're getting your posts mixed up. I didn't say your comment was quite arrogant, JtotheAtothe... did. I only quoted him. Your definition of Sikh is not true according to the Rehit Maryada and common sense no matter how many times you insist it is.

    First it violates common sense. How can ALL men be Sikh, learning to be pure and one with all? Are child molesters learning to be pure through their actions?


    I very specifically cited Gurbani and the Rehit Maryada which are entirely independant from me. The definitions of Sikh faith have nothing to do with me, existed since before I was even born. What in the world are you talking about?
    You can't quote from the Gurbani in support of your positions because Gurbani doesn't support your position, which is why I don't support your position. Please do quote and show me where Guru is saying what you are telling people He is saying?

    Preaching is katha, narrative and personal interpretation. I'm not preaching, you are. I'm quoting directly from Rehit Maryada to give voice to the Panthic position as best I can. That isn't my voice. I didn't write the Rehit Maryada. My opinion doesn't have any more authority than yours. I'm just telling you that you are inventing your own definition of Sikh.


    No one is throwing any stones, give me a break. You're the one calling me argumentative, hardline, stone hard, 'O mighty one' and other ridiculous things. I'm not attacking you as a person or any qualities you have as a person. The position you're defending and promoting is not accurate as can be proved over and over. Just go read the Rehit Maryada on how the Sikh Panth defines who is a Sikh. If that definition changes, please let me know and I will have to modify my opinion.

    Veerji, do you know anything about what those codes are based on? Did you know Guruji Himself said that the brahmgyani Bhai Gurdas held the key to understanding Gurbani? And Bhai Gurdas was the person who scribed our Shabadguru in laridaar saroop? So when people read the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas, it's not just "some codes." The same thing with Rehitnamay. The Sikh Rehit Maryada is based on the Rehitnamay, or codes of conduct for the Khalsa. Not all Rehitnamas are equally authoritative, but many of them were written by people like Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji who Guru Gobind Singh Ji Himself instructed to write down rehits. So to expect Sikhs will not follow Rehits or Panthic teachings because you have a different opinion isn't very persuasive. I mean, if you want to dispute a code, fine. But disputing all the codes you're definitely out of the ballpark of mainstream Sikhi.


    If we call ourselves Sikhs, by the authentic definition of the word, a disciple of Guruji. Then our interest should be in what does Guruji say in the best way we can understand. You said before that Guruji is imperfect because He isn't God. You said before that Sikhism was a man-made religion and thus subject to errors which you, as another human being, could correct.

    You're wrong veerji, if you have this opinion because Gurbani says something different. Just look and read it. Now how can you say the opinions you are writing are from Gurbani? I invite you to go and find me quotes. At least you will be reading Guruji's words for yourself. What greater freedom could you wish? But without even reading, how would you possibly know what the Guru of Sikh religion teaches? So all I say, PROVE IT! Please :) ! I want to see Gurbani quotes!


    No one has to trouble themselves over any question if they conform to what Guruji is teaching. When we cling to our own understanding of things, our own will, we are not surrendered to Guru. These aren't my interpretations veerji. I don't have that fine a mind to have invented Sikh religion. I don't see how you follow Gurbani. You have not even once given a single Gurbani quote to support anything you say. Go find some Gurbani and quote it. You can't exalt your thought to God anyway without Guruji's Naam, it says in Gurbani. So you have to get amritchukk to get Naam. :) Do it! If you say Paat everyday and jap Naam, it will give you peace. And hopefully you will get a different opinion!


    Well, there is truth in this statement. But it feels like that truth wants to keep wandering off... But so far the statement seems true. The only one though, lol.


    Well I'm glad Guru doesn't give up on me or I'd be in trouble. I didn't mean to hurt you veerji. Don't worry about banging on my hard head. Go bang your head by reading Gurbani. I mean like really read it. just read Gurbani with your best understanding and go have peace.
     

Share This Page