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Sukhmani Sahib Astpadi 1 Sabad 6 / ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ੧ ਸਬਦ ੬

Discussion in 'Sukhmani Sahib' started by Ambarsaria, Dec 6, 2011.

  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ
    Ga▫oṛī sukẖmanī mėhlā 5.
    Guru Arjun Dev ji in Raag Gaurhi “Sukhmani”, bliss to mind.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
    Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi se par▫upkārī. Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi ṯin saḏ balihārī.
    Those who seek understanding of the creator, they are benevolent towards others. Those who seek understanding of the creator, those are forever in one’s gratitude.
    Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi se mukẖ suhāve. Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi ṯin sūkẖ bihāvai.
    Those who seek understanding of the creator, their faces are welcoming. Those who seek understanding of the creator, live in comfort.
    Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi ṯin āṯam jīṯā. Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi ṯin nirmal rīṯā.
    Those who seek understanding of the creator, win over their psyche. Those who seek understanding of the creator, have ways of pure living.
    Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi ṯin anaḏ gẖanere. Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi basėh har nere.
    Those who seek understanding of the creator, happiness abounds. Those who seek understanding of the creator, live by the creator in nearness.
    Sanṯ kirpā ṯe an▫ḏin jāg. Nānak simran pūrai bẖāg. ||6||
    Through the benevolent company of the pious one is always in awareness. Guru Nanak it is through good fortune one seeks creator’s understanding. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
    Please note all errors are mine and I stand corrected.

    Please comment if you don't like particular word, content or suggest improvement. It is all for good. Show you are blessed in helping others including your humble learner.


    Sat Sri Akal.
     

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    #1 Ambarsaria, Dec 6, 2011
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Those who seek understanding of the creator, they are benevolent towards others.

    this can be interpreted in several ways, on the one hand, it implies that if you are seeking understanding of Creator, benevolence to others will follow, as will the other qualities, the way I read it is actually backwards, by being benevolent to others, understanding of Creator will follow, if you win over your psyche, live purely, understanding will follow of Creator

    Although I have absolutely nothing to disagree with in your post ji, this is purely how I would read it, given my workings of my brain

    In this Sixth Shabad of First Astpadi, Guru ji identify more ways to understand Creator through actions and thoughts. Such are benevolence,actions that hold you in gratitude from others, welcoming the ability to assist others, being comfortable with yourself and your surroundings,being in control of the five thieves , being happy with everything that you do in the true essence of Creator within, not keeping the company of leeches and those that take help but do not need it, and being aware that only Creator issues the Hukam to understand him, not all are called

    Again Ambarariaji, adapted solely for use by ex wolves and clowns winkingmunda
     
  4. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb India
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    Sat Sri Akaal,

    Facts, its vicious cycle, t
    hought/speech/action.

    Like action is slave of thought.

    Improve on action, thought also will change.

    So one has to break the vicious cycle,

    and out of nasty cycle, positive ways are also cyclic,
    so both way interpretation reflects truth.

    Its like Vichaar Ahaaar /Vyahvahar are cyclic.
    Know the demon, one can split the vicious demonic cycle.

    As an anology

    Drunkard behaves bad, so bad behavior is result of thought/ drink. or drink has caused
    bad thoughts. It is vicious and cyclic.

    So both way its truth.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
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  5. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Harry veer ji thanks for your comment. The translation of the following is as follows from what I understand,

    ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਸੇ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ
    Similarly,

    I do not know if you experimented but if you click on any word in the Gurbani in blue it takes you to the dictionary for that word at srigranth.org. Very very good work by srigranth folks. Then you have to compare and come to a conclusion of the essence that a word implies. Unfortunately lot of the parts are in Punjabi and can be difficult for some.

    So at the moment I don't find a reason to accept your suggested change but always open for correction.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  6. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Ambarsaia ji,

    We refer to some standard work like Dr. Sahib singh ji for reference purposes. I was just curious to find out as to which commentary you are following as I do not find similarity in your para phrasing and some other commentator's works.

    If the commentary is as per your own understanding ,Please do mention that as well. I have few questions that shall be posted once this thing is clear; also please do not bother by LINE-1 and 2 that I have marked for recapitulation purposes.
     
    #6 Taranjeet singh, Dec 7, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  7. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet singh ji thanks for your post.

    I consider the following when I do my work in addition to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurbani,


    • Prof. Sahib Singh ji Sri Gur Granth Darpan
    • Bhai Manmohan Singh ji's Teeka
    • Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji's translation
    • Merriam - Webster and free online dictionary to find right English words, synonyms
    CONCLUSION: Most of the time I do not use any of the sources verbatim. I try to see which one or what combination of explanation is in line with my understanding. Then I post appropriately. My most coincidences are with Prof. Sahib Singh ji's but I rarely do verbatim of Punjabi to English of his sentences. Next is Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and at times I end up with exactly the same as Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji.

    So in a way it is my own as well as the errors are to be assigned to me.

    I hope that clarifies.

    Sat Sri Akal
     
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    #7 Ambarsaria, Dec 8, 2011
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  8. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Quote:
    ਸਲੋਕੁ
    Salok.
    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
    Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 1
    With blessing of one eternal creator esteemed teacher.
    ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ
    Āḏ gur▫e namah. Jugāḏ gur▫e namah.
    Respects to the greatest creator originator of all. Respects to the creator of many millennia.
    ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ੧॥
    Saṯgur▫e namah. Sarī gurḏev▫e namah. ||1|| 2
    Respects to the eternal truth creator. Respects to the respectful divine creator.

    Thanks for your clarifications. I do appreciate the efforts that might have gone into this. May thee be blessed that thee long for. I have very basic queries and hope you will post a premeditated reply.

    1. Where is the meaning of term marked as 1 above i.e satguru prasad.? May be it is presumed or assumed by you that readers know this. But we do not and should not move on presumptions. Bani should be either translated correctly and the basic principle that ' nothing is superfluous' should be adopted. Kindly clarify the same, if you deem it fit.

    2.In the above slok there is an avertment to Aad guru, Jugad Guru, Sat Guru and Sri Guru Dev. Your translation is literal and makes one believe that there is reference to the four as one or the reference is to four separate gurus as mentioned above. Kindly clarify on the four terms.

    3. Moving on the premise that no word of bani should be read down, I would again request you to kindly clarify as to whom guru ji is referring to by stating to 'Sri-" in the point marked as 2 above or you can amplify the meaning of 'sri' and as why this is present here as we do not have sri at other places in bani. This pre-fix should have some significance.

    ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ

    Ga▫oṛī sukẖmanī mėhlā 5.
    Guru Arjun Dev ji in Raag Gaurhi “Sukhmani”, bliss to mind.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
    Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi se par▫upkārī. Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi ṯin saḏ balihārī.
    Those who seek understanding of the creator, they are benevolent towards others. Those who seek understanding of the creator, those are forever in one’s gratitude.
    Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi se mukẖ suhāve. Parabẖ ka▫o simrahi ṯin sūkẖ bihāvai.
    Those who seek understanding of the creator, their faces are welcoming. Those who seek understanding of the creator, live in comfort.
    .........................

    4. In continuation , kindly refer to LINE-1, Prabh kao simreh...and please post the translation or commentary by Dr. Sahib singh ji as well. If there is a discrepancy between the two kindly clarify.It shall help me understand as to what you are saying. Please also note that bringing in new meaning to well established meaning is likely to mislead the sangat.
    You may have very good intentions.
    But the translation should be backed up by other Guramt resources if the current work deviates from the established work.

    5. Line 2 'mukh suhave' has been translated to 'faces becoming welcome' or welcoming; It sounds mystical to me. Kindly reconsider the line and re post ; if yu consider that nothing should be changed , Kindly state that,

    Please take your own time before responding; we are not in hurry. Your answers should be to the point.
    I would be having many clarifications from other Pads as well that I would be posting over period of time.
    Your efforts are appreciated, thanks in advance.
    If you feel that I am indulging in any argument please state so and I shall stop asking and in that case you may consider this post as withdrawn.
    Regards
     
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    #8 Taranjeet singh, Dec 9, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  9. Tejwant Singh

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    Taranjeet Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I will let Ambarsaria ji respond to your queries but what you said in the following in bold caught my eye because it is incorrect:

    There are many places in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,our only Guru where Sri is used. Hence, I did not understand the premise of this particular query. Please elaborate.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  10. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet Singh ji thanks for your comments. These are appreciated.

    Since there is quite a bit to be addressed, I will address what is fastest addressable by me first. In this I am addressing point 4 of your post.
    I am sorry I will not so post as I wrote earlier. In terms of the order of how my understanding and translation flowed in coincidental to (not identical or verbatim), with most from 1 to least as 3 below,


    1. Prof. Sahib Singh ji Sri Gur Granth Darpan
    2. Bhai Manmohan Singh ji's Teeka
    3. Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji's translation
    4. Merriam - Webster and free online dictionary to find right English words, synonyms
    Note: I consulted Mahan Kosh access as per srigranth.org as well when needed and it is part of the reason for some of my variations from Prof. Sahib Singh ji's writing though mostly minor in nature but different in context.

    In as much honesty and integrity I can muster I have attempted to give my best understanding. I have already done comparison of 1, 2 and 3 in each word of translation where such was necessary.

    I have tried not to miss a single word in Gurbani in my translation but I am happy to correct any mistakes being a humble leaner and so sharing.

    As I mentioned before there is "no two" to start comparing with. I had a choice to totally translate Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Darpan verbatim. It did not fully serve my need to learn and use all that is available from him and some other so distinguished.

    Gurmat is in all of us. We can use and rise or depend. I have tried to rise with what I have the privilege in building from contributions of others. If you have fallen you will have to functionally address where I do and perhaps even help with your own translation and then we can consolidate and I will be the first to correct myself.

    The other point to note is that the styles of translation are quite different. I have adopted the direct style of reading as though Guru ji were reading to self.

    I will address specifics as you have posted in other points and do honestly so as well as I know.

    Any comments or suggestions always most welcome.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet Singh ji my answer to your point number 5 follows. The following is complete of this from the three sources I consult for getting my translation,

    ਮੂੰਹ ਸੋਹਣੇ when translated does not work as beautiful for me. It is reflective of lot more than beauty as commonly understood. It is a reflection of overall persona including demeanor, disposition.

    To encapsulate all this I used the words "faces welcoming" as that is the end result that ਮੂੰਹ ਸੋਹਣੇ represented in my thought processes. If you suggest a better word(s) I will be happy to consider.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  12. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet Singh ji this is response to your Point 1 above.

    So again I quote my three sources below,



    Now in the above I don't have much to disagree with per Prof. Sahib Singh ji's bottom line as ,

    However I felt that it is perhaps instructive to look into ਸਤਿਗੁਰ. I so did with the following,

    So considering the above I did the translation as "esteemed teacher".

    I will be happy to consider comments and other inputs.

    Sat Sri Akal.




     
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    #12 Ambarsaria, Dec 11, 2011
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  13. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet Singh jki this is in response to your comment number 2 and 3 per below in your post.
    So let us review the sources of my translation below,
    So then I looked at the following in reference to ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ,
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਗੁਰੁਦੇਵਾਯ. ਚਤੁਰਥੀ ਵਿਭਕ੍ਤਿ. ਗੁਰੁਦੇਵ ਤਾਈਂ. ਦੇਵਰੂਪ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਿ੍ਰਤ. "ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ". (ਸੁਖਮਨੀ).
    Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com


    So I translated ਦੇਵਰੂਪ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਿ੍ਰਤ as "divine creator".
    Further I translated
    ਸ੍ਰੀ as respectful.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Hence my translation as posted.

    I hope above clarifies and I will consider suggestions as always.

    This completes my response to all your comments in the following,

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sukhm...ani-sahib-astpadi-1-sabad-6-a.html#post157799

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #13 Ambarsaria, Dec 11, 2011
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  14. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb India
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    Sat Sri Akaal,

    Shed "I" and "Me" from the composition,
    one realise,
    composition still holds good,
    and connects to the source of text,

    This is objective of "GURU's BANI",

    To realise world without "I" and "Me" and connect to source.
    and seek truth.



    Bhul Chuk Maaf

    "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa"
    "Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh"
     
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  15. Jaskaran1997

    Jaskaran1997
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    SSA Ji

    This is Jaskaran I am new to SPN...I would like to acknowledge this is a wonderful place to learn and be near to Guru Sahib Ji through his own creation.
    I am enlighten with new teaching every day. Thank you Sir


    Regards
    Jaskaran :
    peacesign
     
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  16. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Jaskaran1997 Bhain ji don't hesitate if something is not clear or you have comments, positive or negative or neutral.

    Feel free to post and enjoy.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  17. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Ambarsaria ji,

    Very many thanks for the pains taken for replying to queries.
    Having dealt with the basic question ,It is time to discuss the larger question that you would be required to answer as you deem fit.

    After going through your posts carefully, It is concluded that you have thought it fit to assign the meaning to Prabh ke simaran... as 'Creator's understanding';the conventional works and sheer reading is not even suggestive of this. You would have your reasons to come out with the meaning that deviates from the conventional one.

    Mind does not accept such a round turn. In bani consistency is another important factor; i.e 'Simran'/'Simrana'/dhyan karna/Dhyana/ japana/[may be ...sift salah karni]/rab de nam noo jaap kar ke man vich vasana] should have same meaning everywhere.
    It is the touchstone of interpretation.

    Hence the reading of bani as a whole is recommended. I do not know if you have undertaken an exercise of checking if the meaning assigned to simaran fits in all places in bani.

    Once a reply is received we shall have an opportunity of learning that you want to state by 'creator's understanding'. It shall not be out of context that creator has been stated to be beyond comprehension. You very well know this.If that be so; will some useful purpose be served by following that you have stated i.e trying to 'understand creator' or Creator's understanding? Will it not be excessive indulging in sianapa/intellectualizing?.

    You may like to dwell on this and send a suitable reply as to what is Prabh simaran..or Creator's understanding.
    To me ,It comes as a part of realization when we are in Fourth Stage [out of Trigunas] with Divine Grace.
    I am reminded of a line of bani and I can share only skeltal part and you can make out .....Tajo sianap[...]...simro har har....



    Regards!
     
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    #17 Taranjeet singh, Dec 12, 2011
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  18. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet Singh ji thanks for your comment. You must realize that not everyone is subject to suggested "round turn". I do feel for people who may be so subject. It really is not a round turn.

    There are say for sukhmani Sahib about 192 Sabads. It is not rocket science and extreme effort to understand it. One could do one sabad with every time one wants to do Simran. The effects I bet will be phenomenal.

    Same goes for "Waheguru, Waheguru" simran which perhaps should be preceded by an exposition of a sabad from SGGS. So that we understand the content and the style. It is perhaps unique to SGGS as compared to other scriptures to have the two elements so well endowed.

    Let use review a two modes of reading Gurbani.


    1. Little attention to understanding: I don't want to generalize too much as there are pitfalls to doing so

    • When one reads wihout understanding one could be doing the following,
      • Keeping yourself out of other less useful modes of occupying such time
      • Just exercising and shutting one down or putting away day to day or other mind disturbing chores
      • Potentially visualizing with most likely mis-understanding Guru jis message
    • CONCLUSION: Is there benefit in so doing? Of course there is. The benefit is limited to the mindset as decribed in above examples or bullet points. The above is not comprehensive but representative.
      • Did Guru ji compose Gurbani for understanding or just for musical parts or chanting
      • Clear answer is for both
      • Hence for most benefit and paying full respect to Guru ji's intent understanding and Simran need to be exploited to the full.
      • You cannot trade one off with the other.
    2. Doing Simran with Understanding

    • Here it is like putting icing on the cake
      • You will come to visualize what Guru ji wanted one to visualize in content and rhythm
      • You will come to realize the rhythms of rest of Gurbani
      • Your understanding of rest of Gurbani will be enhanced
      • Simran done with understanding permeate day and night as understanding does not disappear where as exercise wears off and Simran is more like an exercise for the brain, mouth, ears and the senses with little bit of the rest of the body involved

    • CONCLUSION: One would provide the kind of respect that Gurbani deserves in content and style.
    This is just an overview. I will respond specific to my reason for translation Simran related or like words as per your question.

    I appreciate your structured questions and it is one of the reasons I have not started posting rest of the Astpadis. I want to give the translation so far to be as much vetted in basic approach and style by people like yourself, Tejwant Singh ji, spnadmin ji, Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, Japjisahib04, and many others so like.

    Any other questions please post as it is appreciated.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  19. ravneet_sb

    ravneet_sb India
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    Sat Sri Akaal,

    Like death is the cause of life, one may initiate any way,
    one may lead life any way.

    So way can be any,
    at least one realise the ultimate aim,
    and are on the path.

    ultimate goal for each one is same.

    Not to bother, and not to worry,

    Just be on the way,
    my way, your way, any way, all roads and ways lead to same.

    one will get, what one seeks with full mind.

    Difficulty comes to those who don't get the way to the "goal" ultimate.

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
  20. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    ravneet_sb ji clarify the following specially what is full mind,
    By the way lol we are not discussing ways. Ways are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. These are not just any ways either!

    Extrapolated your post actually supports doctrines of ignorance which are so popular in some religions to control the masses and exploit them in India and elsewhere. With ignorance arrogance is not much further behind and you have a flock that can be directed any which way for good or bad.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #20 Ambarsaria, Dec 12, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011

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