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Islam Some info about Shias for Caramel Chocholate

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by basha, Dec 20, 2004.

  1. basha

    basha
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    Hey caramel suger, being a Shia, I can tell you that shiism is very humanity- minded, we dont totally disregard labels (shia, sunni, sikh, hindu) but we do put them at a much lesser significance than other criteria that makes a person a person. I guess we believe in a type of universal faith which each and every person, no matter what creed and culture, can partake in and thus we believe every human being has an equal chance to compete for the reward in the afterlife (which we believe is heaven). Here is a quick reference to the Quran, in which God refers to all humanity (Son of Adam just means all of humanity since Muslims believe all humanity started from adam, so technically we are all Adams children)

    {I like this verse because it puts your faith is simple economic terms which most of us living in a capitalist society should grasp readily !!)

    Oh, Son of Adam! Obey me to the extent of your needs towards Me.
    Disobey Me to the extent of your ability to tolerate the fire of Hell.
    Collect wealth in this world according to the length of your stay here.
    Collect for your Akhirat (Hereafter) according to the length of your stay there.
    Do not think that your death is far and your bounties are available, or your sins are hidden.
    Oh, Son of Adam! Behave with people in good manners so that I may love you, and put your love in the hearts of pious people; and I will forgive your sins.
    Oh, Son of Adam! Be free from this world by worshiping Me. I will fill your heart with freedom, your hands with sustenance, and your body with rest.
    Oh, Son of Adam! Pray humbly to Me, otherwise I will fill your heart with poverty, your hands with difficulties, your body with affliction, your chest with grief, I will not answer your supplications or requests and I will make your world difficult for you and decrease your sustenance.


    And now here is a saying from Hazrat Ali (Shiites believe he was the successor to the Prophet Mohammed, some extremist muslims or wahabbi's know the greatness of both men but choose to disregard them cuz they feel that when they praise these men they are associating persons with God, which they justify with the quranic verse in which god tells us not to associate him with anyone. The wahabbis dont and never will make any sense cuz they keep taking the literal meaning of the quran. I mean just think about it, if you love the messenger(the prophet and his family {the respect to prophet and his family is key to Shias and many sunnis}, you will love the message (quran) and the one who sent the message(god). But who cares about the wahabi's, lets talk about Hazrat Ali, this quote below from Hazrat Ali makes me more humble each time I read it, check it out)


    If a person who prays knew to what extent he was surrounded by His Mercy(Gods mercy), he would never raise his head from (the state of ) prostration.

    {Other ones by Hazrat Ali, he has much much greater quotes, but these are just some that Ive been reading again and again lately, so i am quilty of being a little biased in presenting these quotes, sorry!}

    Whoever is granted prayer is not denied response.
    Whoever is granted repentance is not denied acceptance.
    Whoever is allowed to seek forgiveness is not denied forgiveness.
    Whoever is granted gratitude is not denied increase.
    When you are reduced to poverty, use charity to trade with God.
    Fidelity to the treacherous is treachery to God, and treachery to the treacherous is fidelity to God.
    One who takes into consideration all points of view knows where the pitfalls are.
    Sleep in a state of certainty is better than prayer in a state of doubt.
    The most gracious deed is the one you have to force yourself to do.
    Keep commitments in all integrity.
    The biggest failures are those who have failed to win friends, but even bigger failures are those who lose what friends they have made.
     
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  3. basha

    basha
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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    I just noticed and wanted to bring to everyones attention that the last quote states " Whoever....", not muslim or jew or sikh, it says whoever. And whenever I come across sayings from other beliefs, its always "Whoever.." and "Humanity". I propose we start a start a worldwide project, and embrace all those saying that pertain to us, humanity, from all religions. Remember, there is power in numbers and if there are a few sayings or quotes or statements in each religion that are universal (for humanity in general and not that specific religion), then we can be united in the greatest numbers imaginable. But as Prophet Mohammad and Imam Khomenei and Sahab Guru Nanak Ji brought on a revolution, based not just on theology but also on organization. Now that we've got the idea, we need to plan the organization of this revolution. Any smart people out there, who did well on their SAT's or MCATS or USMLE step 1's? Speak up now!! we need you!!
     
  4. CaramelChocolate

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Salaams Basha humble thanks for such interesting information. I was surprised to find Shiism to be much more open than Sunniism... Do all Shias have the same/similar way of looking of things as you?

    Since we now have Shia here, I was wondering if the Shias were as condemning about issues like homosexuality as the Sunnis are [in Sunniism there are about 4 schools of views, some saying death sould be involved, others saying different].

    Once again thanks for the info... I have one more question and hopefully will have more in the future...
    Please give some information on the practices of Shiism [the practice of beating]. I have also heard but do not know if it is true that Shia mothers cut the forehead of their newborn child - is this true? if so, what is the significance? Thanks :)
     
  5. basha

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Walekumasalaam Caramel Suger. Homosexuality is strictly forbiden in all of Islam, but it is such an insignificant topic to discuss that many people just refrain from entering any discussion about it, only the extremist wahabbi's take it seriously cuz it just means more people for them to persecute. They basically just like killing people. If theyre's any sickos out there who just love killing, look into wahabiism/salafiism, I think it'll be a great fit. Anyway about the topic of shias beating themselves. Zanjeer ka matam (beating your back with sharp knifes attached to chains) is done by a very very small amt of shias. It is neither recommended or forbidden. It is very hard to explain why we do it unless you knew about the Imams in Shiism, their overwhelming character and piousness and the way they suffered under the hands of the ruling muslim khalifs. Imam Hussain specifically is the martyrs of all martyrs, he saw his entire family (most of them thirsty kids of 3 days) get killed by the muslim tyrants army, and in the end he himself was killed in the most barbaric of ways, his body cut into pieces, dragged behind horses for the surviving daughter and son to see, when the daughter and son were taken prisoner, all through the journey above their head loomed a spear with their loving fathers head on it. The barbarism continues all the way from karbala to damascus, meanwhile the humbleness of the daughter and son also continue. The daughter, although drenched of all hope, still speaks like her father confidently infront of the entire court of Yazid (curse him and his helpers) and brings the realization to others that Yazid, a drunkard and a womanizer, can not be on the right path if he had just killed the most beloved grandson of the prophet, who when the prophet was in sajdah (had his head on the floor praying to god), he wouldnt get up from sajdah because Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain were on his back and they were so dear to him that he sacrificed his prayer for them not getting hurt, so he did not rise up until they came off his back. I can speak and speak until I start crying myself but due to time contraints I can not do that today. But believe me, Zanjeer ka matam does not signify backwardness nor is it to be taken as a joke. If you only knew my Imams then you would ask me why I dont beat myself. The tragedy is not in the events but the personalities of the ones who this earth was build for.
     
  6. TeraRoop11

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Salaam, Basha Ji!

    Wow, it seems like there is a lot of difference between what the Sunni Muslims think of Shias, and what you guys really are. I have a friend who is a Sunni Muslim, who says that Sunnis condemn Shias for breaking away from the roots of Islam, and changing so many rules and doing stuff backwards. I guess you gotta hear both sides to understand, huh? So, I'm just going to take a shot at this, and I really hope I don't offend you. Do Shias maybe practice the Zanjeer ka Matam to show themelves what martyrs like Imam Hussain had to suffer through under the hands of the ruling Muslim Khalifs? To remind themselves of the pain they had to live through? That was just a guess, and I hope I did not offend you, but I really would like to know more about your faith.
     
  7. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Akal Sahai

    BismillahAl Rahman Al Raheem.

    Das think that there is no Sunni on this forum so keeping that in mind Das is writing something on the Behalf of Sunni brothers.

    As per Das Sikh Panth is more near to Sunnis or even Wahabis then Shias.

    As per Wahabis Allah is to be followed and no mortal man.(In Iraq Das sees the picture of perhaps Hazrat Hussain or Hazrat Hassan Ramat Ul Alleh(Das as per sunni Tradition will not write Ahle Salam) hung around the pilgrims to holy Karbala)The picture is anti Islam and thats it.


    Likewise the worship of Grave or asking for mercy not from Allah but from those who were born(thing to remember,One who is created will be destroyed so born will die) Allah is eternal and immortal.

    So does not some Shia teach the concept of good and Bad but sunnis with enlightenment say all is will of God.

    So Wahabis are more near to Kala Afghana group of our faith.As per Wahabis only Kuran is true and only Allah to Be wroshipped.What does Kala Afghan party says,Pure be based on Adi Guru Darbar and follow Ek Oankar(Das Call God by name of Akal or MahaKal and for Das both are same as Ek Oankar).

    The Wahbis are justified as there are trying to prevent un Islamic pagan influences into Islam.Any person by saying that it is by oral tradition or by other non Kuranic source may bring in Anti Islamic things in Islam and ruin the fundamental princepal.

    So Wahabis like Jehova Witness sect of Christianity have a just reason for that to be purist of Holy Kuran as sect of christianity is purist of Holy Bible.

    At last Das wants to say that he respect Shia 's view and may not be supporting all the views of Kala Afghana Ji yet Das found it good to put the views of sunnis brothers also as no Sunni was forthecoming on this issue.
    Das could be wrong and is sorry if Das has offended his beloved brother Bash but thing here was that many a time Das was helped in Sikhism realted matters by Sunni Brothers. So did Das find a chance here to take there side over here.As per Das it was his Guru who is in all and who took form of such Sunni Brothers who helped Das in some issue so Das can not return the gratitude of un measure able help they did to Das but it was just an attempt by das to put Sunnis view.Das also request that if there is any Sunni then let him come and must put his/her view over Here.


    Das is again sorry if someone is hurt.Das did not inteneded for it but was compelled by the will of Allah.
     
  8. CaramelChocolate

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    I am yet to find a scripture of any religion which states:

    YOU MAY NOT LOVE THE SAME GENDER

    YOU MAY NOT BE ATTRACTED TO THE SAME GENDER

    Therefore I see your homophobic claims as unlearned non-sense.
     
  9. basha

    basha
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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Ok Caramel Sugar. this is the last time I want to discuss the topic of homosexuality, and only because I respect you as a human being. Loving and attraction? Lets not beat around the bush on this (and I apologize for the vulgarity of my post), homosexuality is forbidden because a man KISSES or HAS SEX or THINKS SEXUALLY of/with other men. And this is forbidden IN EVERY RELIGION. In my personal opinion caramel sugar, you are first off way too young to be even thinking about how much u love the same gender, whats wrong with you? Youre missing out on precious childhood, go have fun, leave ur sexual preferences till ur older. Anyway, dont try to continue this because I will NOT talk about this topic again. Thanks, good luck with everything.
     
  10. basha

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    I think Das needs to read up about Shiism since the topic at hand is very simple and easy to understand, that of "waseelat" and whether we can use intercessors when asking god for help and that of "Ahlul Bayt" and whether thier interpretation of the Prophets actions and the Quran are equally as important as the Quran itself. In both cases, Shias believe it to be true, but before you raise a judgement qualify yourself to make this judgement. Read just a little about these two topics. Al-Islam.org or ShiaChat.com are two excellent resources. Before you start your research though, I want to make clear to you that shias and sunnis follow ONE islam, not two different versions. The differences are very minor and only known to the knowledgable sunni/shia followers, everything else that you might have heard are only rumors and exaggerations.

    On a side note, showing faces or portraits of Imams is forbidden in Islam. And thus forbidden in Shiism. Although its strictly forbidden in Islam the reason those very few shias still hold up those portraits is because shiism has not and can not put any limit to showing your love for the ahlul bayt. So those few shias, due to this clause in shiism, dont see that their transgressions in the name of love for ahlul bayt are actually going against Islam itself, but rather say that they have left it up to God to decide whether it was a transgression or not. I dont agree with this since there is NO justification for going against Islam. I myself feel very shameful of being a shia when I see this on the television. Also, another side note, shias dont pray to graves or shrines of imams, they pay their respects to them, a wahabi would interpret these actions differently due to his bias and without asking those shias about their intentions he will automatically assume that they are praying to those shrines or graves. And please, dont ever put wahabiism in a good light in front of me.

    Also, It is well-known that sunni's arent wahabi. It is a grand mistake made by many, even shia's, of grouping wahabi's with sunnis. Sunni clerics have been killed, along with shia clerics, by wahabis for choosing moderation over extremism, and choosing knowledge over jihad. The wahabis dont take the Prophet Mohammad's PBUH sunna (his actions and interpretation of the Quran) in consideration when following the Quran and thus are left to their OWN interpretations which are not necessarily the RIGHT interpretations. Ive written about this topic in my previous posts, so just search for them. Thank you and forgive me if I've come across as anything less than humble. Again, the websites are al-islam.org and shiachat.com. Take care.
     
  11. CaramelChocolate

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    So many unlearned claims Basha... so you have studied every religion in the world in such detail to make such claims? What about female homosexuals?
    I guess I have won the debate since you cannot give any solid evidence to use religion as a scapegoat to back up your personal prejudices.
     
  12. muslim

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Caramelsugar there is a religion which allows homosexuality its called fakeism.
     
  13. CaramelChocolate

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel CHOCOLATE

    The Muslim has only one eye... I can see why Guruji says that, on more levels than one.

    Muslim - If you can find me a verse in any religious scripture which says you may not love or be attracted to the same gender then I will accept your claim that homosexuality is not accepted in some religions.
    I do generally agree that there are not many religions that will accept homosexuality but I strongly prmote the idea that all religions are silent on the issue, but it is actually the followers who will say it is not allowed and not the religion itself.

    By the way, my name is CaramelCHOCOLATE.

    Admin - I strongly suggest that you keep the homophobic and ignorant posts written by Muslims on this thread and in others, it captures the exact nature of the Muslim majority which we all need to be aware of.
     
  14. vijaydeep Singh

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Das is sorry that he is not understood correctly.

    Brother Bash!


    Like there are spritual Shias and Logical Sunnis we have similar gruops in Sikhism.And infact Das is associated with group which is more spritual but Das is often interested towards the logical one(Das did mentioned Kala Afghana).

    Yes Das salutes and respects your views and even aknowledge as per Sikhism that by your Way Salvation can be obtained(As it is in God's will).

    But das still finds that Wahabis and Sunnis also have a valid cause.Das due to his profession may have to fight them yet as none of them was there so did Das made this oppertunity to put the view of them.Das will try to bring a Tablleghi(Preacher from sunnis or Wahabis) on this forum but he may not succed as das may have lost email Id of that brother.Das profession is like that.

    Anyway Gods willing if possible if there is any other Sunni or Wahabi seeing this post,that person will be in a better position to elaborate those facts.Regarding the entry of Pagan rituals(from AJam(Iran)) in Islam via some Shias or Suffis.But as per Das these pagans things if not anti Islamic can still be retained.

    now Das is writing as a Sikh but at that time Das has forgottan to be a Sikh but was writing with the meantlity of a Wahabi or Sunni.

    Das is again sorry.
     
  15. basha

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    You speak from the point of view of a human being thus your speak is not representative of either Sikhism or Sunnism but that of yourself, Das. Still, I feel you to be humble, friendly and intelligent, no matter what your opinions are on Shiism, and hope that you can keep yourself from drowning any further and joining the masses that have been sunk in the sea of ignorance. Good luck.
     
  16. CaramelChocolate

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Take the LOG out of your eye before attempting to take the SPEC OF DUST from somebody elses.
     
  17. Platinum007

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    From what i've read and learned, homosexuality is wrong at all levels in Islam. Attaction/love.. why beat around the bush like basha just said..
    rather then pick at a religion why not read things with an open mind.
     
  18. Platinum007

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel CHOCOLATE

    i can understand keeping a post but going as far as generalizing a community is pretty low, thats like saying all muslims are terrorist.
    rather then basing a community on a gernal bases why not see everyone as a individual. You only hurt yourself by having such an view of a community, can you imagine all the intelligent people you probably will disregard and not have the oppurtinity to learn from

    Basha seems like a very intelligent person and he's bring lots of knowledge to this forums.
     
  19. CaramelChocolate

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Yet again - show me where in Islamic scriptures love/attraction to the same gender is outlawed?

    Muslims such as basha beat around the bush to back up prejudices.

    I AM looking at things with an open-mind... I am looking for my OWN answers/interpretations not a manipulation of a scripture by some scholar. Basha is not looking at things with an open-mind. She was probably brought up to believe that homosexuality was always wrong and she is too set in her ways to actually look for other ideas and accept the possibility that her interpretation of Islam maybe wrong.

    I do see everyone as individuals but I am weary of Muslims due to my bad experiences with them. I am not generalising to all Muslims I am generalising to the majority which are blind and follow what scholars say to the word rather than looking at things themselves.

    An intelligent person would actually listen to other people's arguments instead of saying [on another thread] "I will not listen as I refain from that evil". And the inability to continue this discussion on this thread shows her unwilling nature to look at things differently now and then.
     
  20. muslim

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    yawn..............
     
  21. CaramelChocolate

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    Re: Some info about Shias for Caramel Sugar

    Do not bother responding to a post if you have no opinions to express.
     

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