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Sikhism : An Offshoot of Hinduism

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Sikh80, Jul 18, 2008.

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  1. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Respected Pk70 ji,

    Thanks for your reply.

    02.Amrit ceremomy-Area Of no-convergence.

    is`KW nUM is`KI dwn, kys dwn, rihq dwn, ibbyk dwn, ivswh dwn, Brosw dwn, dwnW isr dwn, nwm dwn sRI AMimRqsr jI dy ieSnwn, cOkIAW, JMfy, buMgy, jugo jug At`l, Drm kw jYkwr, bolo jI vwihgurU!!!

    Sikhs in standard Ardas beg for naam daily.
    They have been doing so for centuries and shall continue to do so for centuries.
    They do not know what to meditate upon. God shall give naam only to one in a million.Naam is not disclosed in the Granth. Only Guru mantra is told and that also is defined by the scribe of the Guru.It is for this reason that I want to avoid Amrit Sanchar and naam drid during Sanchar ceremony.


    I take along the points where there can be possibility of some convergence right now or in the immediate future, for the reason I have placed Amrit ceremony in area of no-convergence for the time being as you are fairly strong on this. When we have discussed it at length, may be some convergence develops and that may be the starting point of the Amrit ceremony.


    As there is no concept in Hinduism, things are simple.

    03. Essential ingredients of Religion

    In any religion, worth the name, all these are the essential ingredients, His order or the divine order and the His grace and the liberation. Each and every religion leads to Mukti and should do so to enable it to be called as Mukti or liberation. The religion that does not tell us clearly as to how to reach HIM is not a religion at all.There is nothing new in that you have stated above.


    Wow, I didn’t feel ever like this, since I took it to mind, I have no problem, after posting thousands of essays or kathas, suddenly your this declaration has surprised me. What is not clear? How to reach to HIM? Systematically Gurbani takes you to walk on the path with sincerity. By merely defining words used in Gurbani is not walking on it. Gurbani in Mool Mantra explicitly explains, which you understood, who is He with little reservation, Guru ji continues describing how even after trying, He remains inexpressible. Guru makes me understand about HIM the creator of all( Japji) What more clarity do you need. Then an effort is done many times to explain His Hukam( Japji), How to be heard is also elaborated in beautiful words. Are you just reading and writing or also into the battle Guru ji asks us to be. If answer is yes, then your this question is disturbing otherwise you are filled with so many doubts, it is impossible to walk on that path because the doubtful mind is not helpful . Surprisingly you quote upnishda with same message of surrender in the end of your post, is it more clear? No, simply believing has not been conceived, and it should be natural.


    03.1

    When the sheer meaning of Guru is not clear to me and I hope to many other as well how can then one presume that Guru shall guide us. Who is the Guru you have referred to here ?.It should be Guru Granth sahib ji. But at many places in bani it does not appear to be so. Many posts in the recently started thread should make it abundantly clear as to who is Guru is ambiguous and leaves a lot of scope for manipulation by the seekers as per their understanding. There are references to many types of Gurus and there is no standardization that is seemingly possible.

    1.Who is a Guru in Sikhism as per Granth.? Who is God in Sikhism.? In Hinduism these are different entities. Is it the essential difference between sikhism and Hinduism.?
    03.2
    Some respected member has recently found out the meaning of a term that should qualify for Satguru. When the Lord or waheguru is not clear in the Granth sahib, how it is expected that the seeker shall proceed further? This is the way to alienate Sikhism from Hinduism where the concept of God and Guru is clear on account of acceptance of Human gurus as things get simplified.
    0.3.3
    1.Who is Guru and who is Lord is not clear in bani and leaves lot of scope for confusion. There is no scope of confusion in Gita where the Lord Himself declares as the creator and is the one to be obtained.One does not discard other scriptures just because it has been said so.
    2.Who is the Creator as per bani?
    3.Were/Are Gurus the Creators ?
    In hinduism things are simple and clear. There may be idolatory, But then sikhs also practice by keeping the Granth sahib in Gurudwara. It is a modified version of the same.Then there is a Granthi or a Paathi and then there are persons who prepare kada parsad. Keeping idols help the person to concentrate on the diety he/she loves.This is the present status so what is the big difference.
    0.3.4
    Sikhism professes Naam Simran and meditation.
    1.What is that Naam.Is it known even to a single sikh that sikhs are proud of.One in a million understands the reality.This is as per Granth sahib. What is the name of asingle sikh who have acknowledged meeting/realizing/seeing HIM or getting close to the truth. Even the Granth sahib gives reference to Dhruv or Parhlad who themselves are just myth,at the moment, in Hinduism.?



    Is it waheguru or satnaaam or Guru nanak and like wise. None is stated clearly in the Granth sahib.


    2.Which ever it is, is it given by the God to the seeker or there are some other ways.

    In Hinduism things are simple and plain. Remember the one ~OM~, the all pervasive and one reaches the goal.

    I think it is the only way we can move ahead in a systematic manner i.e. by taking one point at a time and taking care of the rest in the posts that may follow.
    You are free to suggest any other method so that issues are resolved one by one.
     
  2. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

    Harjas Kaur Khalsa
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    It's my opinion that so many unclear issues within Gurbani, such as is human Guru God? how does Jyot move to another living form which isn't even reincarnation? what is Naam? what is significance of Dhyaan? what is significance of Sehaj yoga and Raja yoga? why are names of Vishnu avtaaras praised in Gurbani such as Krishna, Raam, Narasingh? How is Ek Oangkar different from Omkar? What is true meaning of Ek Omkar? How is human Guruji also One with nirguna? as Sikh80 writes, are all concepts which become immediately clarified if you take time to read Vedas, Upanishads and Bhagavad-Gita. Then everything becomes clear and simple with no contradiction whatsoever. Not only that, but it becomes clear what is missing in our sadhana, true bhairaag and bhakti through purification of mind and kalpas, and skandas and kaleshas, and understanding no one is a spiritual elitist. Not even Sikhs. Guruji is the same as Krishan Avtaar. He is the same as the coming Kalki avtaar. So we can accept all holy people as an example of goodness without being narrowly constrained to only one single community as having some sort of Abrahamic salvation.

    Shri Guru Granth Sahibji contains the essence of all truth from the past, but is bigger, just like nirguna is bigger than anyone's definitions. God who cannot be described, also cannot be rejected simply because a person has a wrong or limited viewpoint. The essence of Gurbani teaching is not that Sikhs have the One true God, and everybody else has a fake god. Gurbani teaches ALL manifestations are the One, because the One nirguna pervades within all forms. The entire message is tolerance. We don't have to get offended if someone worships demi-gods. Everyone is where they are at. Who are we to judge and condemn them? Are we so holy? They go to their deva-loka but cannot obtain jeevanmukti until they obtain the fourth state of consciousness and merge into Nirbikalpa samadhi. Gurbani teaches so many different names of God, yet Sikhs will condemn you to say Raam is God, or Vishnu is God. But that's exactly what Gurbani says. They say it's not really Raam though, it's just Akal Purakh by a changed name. But Gurbani says unmistakably it is Ramachandra. Raam is also Guruji. He is an avtaara, not a demi-god.

    So we should be able to chant Raam, Raam, and Har, Har, and Satinaam Shri Vaheguru. And no one should be offended. We should be free to sing bhajans to Govinda, Gopala and Shri Krishna because Gurbani does the same! Then people say, No! That's not really Krishna, it's metaphor for the nirguna. So how come Gurbani describes the nirguna as blue, playing a flute around the gopis in Vrindaban? Because it really IS describing Shri Krishna. Gurbani says the name of God is Shiva, Shiva, and Allah, Allah.

    Ek Omkar. The one is within the many. That's what Gurbani says. The Lord is within the Gopis and Krishna. The Lord is within Ramachandra. The Lord is within everyone. Why are we stuttering over nirgun definitions like Akal Purakh, Ajooni, Parabrahm, so we avoid even appearance of calling God as something less. How can that which is everything be less? How can nirguna even be described? No one can even praise nirguna. Nirguna is unknowable to human consciousness. We have to praise sarguna. That is why Gurbani says the Name of God is Allah, Krishna, Shiva, Raam, Govinda, Gopala. Everyones mind has some kind of concept. Until we obtain mukti, we have not purified the limitations of human concepts. Instead of condemning someone else's concepts, why don't we condemn our own hypocrisy and become a wiser, more compassionate, more mature spiritual community?

    I'm really tired of looking at holy people and authentically profound and moving spiritual practices and thinking, "No, I can't believe in that, it's not Sikhi." And then looking at the sadness of Sikh community and thinking, "This is my satsangat? These are the people who have the only boat of mukti in kalyug, and can't even love each other?" And the truth is, just go outside the box a bit, and really learn the spiritual truths of Gurbani as explained in Vaishnava Puranas, and even Shiva sutras and suddenly there is no bondage anymore. What is truth, is truth. What is corruption, is corruption. And no labels such as "Hindu" or "Sikh" can distort the differences. The good things speak with their own voice of holiness. And the bad things can't hide and pretend.

    You can accept that Nihang Jatha is probably correct about Jhatka and bhang from a K'shatriya military standpoint, because Shaivism is basically a tantric path which goes against prevailing conventions, and as such it challenges the bondages of the psychology and can be a path of mukti for some people.

    If you pull the rubberband of the mind too tight trying to be perfectionistic and totally good, your shadow unconscious will overwhelm you and drag you into sin. Some people have to have particular experiences. That's why they are here. Why would it be a sin for warriors to eat meat? They are killing people and making them into dog meat. A soldier is able to hack people to death in a battlefield and we worry whether he's eating goat meat killed in quick and painless way? And does it make logical sense that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a hunter, but never ate the meat? Does it make sense that soldiers are suffering grievous wounds and infections and we deny them bhang and opium? Like modern medicine doesn't use morphine? I think it has legitimacy in context. Especially when you compare traditional Shaivite naga babas who were formidable warriors who didn't fear death, who also took bhang and ate meat. Theres a lineage there. In fact, if the relationship between Nihangs and Shaivites is authentic, the naga babas go back thousands of years and are an ancient tradition. A tradition of austerity and yogic self-surrender and sacrifice. No one practices more tapas than a soldier does.

    That's why the modern version of limited Sikhism has no mysticism. It's not even accepting mysticism is reality. And seems afraid to even explore potential history or alternate interpretations. What kind of truth is ever afraid of investigation? But if you can accept Hindu roots of Gursikhi, then tolerance also comes, ease of mind and heart comes because you don't have to push things into little compartments. There's suddenly room for a spirituality of people who never cut hair, and people who cut hair, and people who shave heads. Theres room for a spirituality where people are vegetarian and people can eat meat. Theres room for people who practice yoga, and people who do not.

    And when you honestly evaluate what Gurbani actually says... isn't this it? Everyone is where they are at depending on their own level of karmic and spiritual development. Guruji doesn't reject someone because he's not "already" a Gurumukh. And becoming a Gurumukh, a truly God-realized soul will be different for different people, because the level of development isn't the same for everyone. We can even tolerate Naamdharis. If they're wrong, in time all will be corrected. We don't gain anything to embrace a narrow authoritarianism which rejects everyone who understands differently. Who is to say our understanding is that great? We are probably all wrong about a lot of things. If Jagjit Singh Naamdhari is totally wrong, we have to admit he lived a good life. Probably better life than many Sikh jathedars who exclude him. I mean, what would happen if we just stopped rejecting. Would the world fall down? Maybe the political opportunists would fall down. Then we could all develop a wise and tolerant maturity for wrong-thinking, like parents of kids who aren't perfect, but we love them anyway. And who is to say we aren't the spiritual kids? Why can't we just have compassion for the people who do wrong things, since they are surely creating enough misery for themselves. Do they need our judgement and condemnation to add to it? Why can't we pray for the liberation of demons? We can kill demons in combat but not bless their suffering or do ardas for their release from pain? Why can't we tolerate Kala Afghana? What in the world is gained through excommunication? Why can't people just be understanding of others as a spiritual practice? What would it hurt to tolerate his viewpoint? Who can he harm? Now this is not accepting or blessing harmful behavior. Stopping evil doing is compassion for the victims. But opinions aren't dangerous. Opinions aren't evil. If they're wrong and foolish opinions, understanding will come in time. How can someone elses foolishness hurt me? What's the big stress to make everyone conform? Sikhism isn't Islam. Why can't someone be an atheistic scientist? Nirguna as a field of force has somewhat the qualities an atheist could relate too. Buddhists are atheistic and happen to be very spiritually advanced.

    So I find this the most believable interpretation, as it is the broadest, truest, most historically accurate, and lines up most closely with Gurbani. Why are we going through hoops to absolutely NOT accept Hinduism as an ancient, broad spiritual path with scriptures which are quoted thousands of times in Gurbani? What political gain is there? Is it possible for truth to become less truth? Is it possible for a son to become less a son if he has a brother? Is it possible for the richness of Punjabi Sikh heritage to be diminished by embracing a tolerant world-view which accepts the equality of Hindu heritage? Are Buddhists any less rich in their identity and heritage to say they are part of sanatan Dharma? And would it even be believable to accept that they are not? If Buddhists cannot lose themselves, neither can Sikhs. All you will do is gain broader understanding and beautiful insights into the ancient Sanskrit concepts in Gurbani. What possible identity is being saved by rejecting such beautiful teachings as found in Bhagavad-Gita? It makes no logical sense to hear repeatedly how inferior Hindu religion is, and then you go read Vedas and Puranas and Bhagavad-Gita and it's breathtakingly beautiful. Why can't Sikhs have an identity which includes and accepts Vedas when Gurbani says:


    ਅਖਰ ਮਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥
    akhar mehi thribhavan prabh dhhaarae ||
    In the Word, God established the three worlds.

    ਅਖਰ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
    akhar kar kar baedh beechaarae ||
    Created from the Word, the Vedas are contemplated.

    ਅਖਰ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥
    akhar saasathr sinmrith puraanaa ||
    From the Word, came the Shaastras, Simritees and Puraanas.

    ਅਖਰ ਨਾਦ ਕਥਨ ਵਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨਾ ॥
    akhar naadh kathhan vakhyaanaa ||
    From the Word, came the sound current of the Naad, speeches and explanations.

    ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਭਰਮਾ ॥
    akhar mukath jugath bhai bharamaa ||
    From the Word, comes the way of liberation from fear and doubt.

    ਅਖਰ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥
    akhar karam kirath such dhharamaa ||
    From the Word, come religious rituals, karma, sacredness and Dharma.

    ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ ॥
    dhrisattimaan akhar hai jaethaa ||
    In the visible universe, the Word is seen.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਨਿਰਲੇਪਾ ॥੫੪॥
    naanak paarabreham niralaepaa ||54||
    O Nanak, the Supreme Lord God remains unattached and untouched. ||54||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 261



    The whole world is mine. My Beloved is One with the whole world. Every saint of every tradition is my beloved. Every truth of every tradition is my beloved. Every beautiful thing is my beloved. This is my treasure. I'm tired of narrow viewpoints and ignorant political authority. I'm tired of being ostracized and rejected by the "spiritual people." I can't go back in that narrow box. There's no joy in not being honest with the truth which has no political aspirations, and is totally free from that bondage. Like Sikh80 writes, just think of the Om, the Oneness, and you immediately feel shanti. You feel at peace with everything that is. And you just want to bless everything. How can that be a wrong path?


    "With scorn I built a wall excluding undesirables,
    and I shut in with God and reread all my Bibles.
    I had misgivings though, and so one day in doubt,
    I climbed my wall to see all the vile things I had shut out.
    T'was there amidst outcastes I saw the Lord of all.
    The God I thought I had confined behind my wall."
    ~Perry Tanksley


    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  3. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Thanks Harjas ji for your valuable contribution for the advancement of thread. It is not my fault if the other members do not take it in a spirit in which it was intended.

    I can paste many lines that advocates gurus as the Creator.Even the statements of the fellow members can be quoted.So what is wrong in admitting that we have heavily borrowed from other philosophies and most of it has come from the Hinduism or Vedant. Gurus themselves have stated at many places that Lord krishna was the creator.This may not be stated so loudly but it could not have been done in a manner better than this.

    Kindly read the following and we shall come to know how heavily we have drawn from so called hinduism.Gurus have also admitted Lord Krishna as the creator.There seems to be semblance as to what Harjas ji has stated and as to what sikhism stands today.


    ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ

    Mārū mehlā 5.
    Maaroo, Fifth Mehl:

    ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ
    Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmėsur anṯarjāmī.
    The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

    ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ
    Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su*āmī.
    He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

    ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
    Rikẖīkės govarḏẖan ḏẖārī murlī manohar har rangā. ||1||
    The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1|| [Lord Krishna]

    ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ
    Mohan māḏẖav krisan murārė.
    The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

    ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ
    Jagḏīsur har jī*o asur sangẖārė.
    The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

    ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
    Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā. ||2||
    The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

    ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ
    Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā*iṇ.
    The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

    ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ
    Ḏāṛā agrė paritham ḏẖarā*iṇ.
    The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

    ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
    Bāvan rūp kī*ā ṯuḏẖ karṯė sabẖ hī sėṯī hai cẖanga. ||3||
    O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

    ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਰੇਖਿਆ
    Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rėkẖ*i*ā.
    You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

    ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ
    Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi*ā.
    Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. [Lord Krishna]

    ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
    Sahas nėṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
    You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

    ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ
    Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthė.
    You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

    ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ
    Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthė.
    The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. [Lord Krishna : From Yadav clan]

    ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
    Bāsuḏėv niranjan ḏāṯė baran na sāka*o guṇ angā. ||5||
    O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ
    Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā*iṇ.
    Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

    ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ
    Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ.
    Savior of Dropadi's honor.
    [lord Krishna]
    ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
    Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||
    Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||
    [Krishna]
    ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ
    Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa*o.
    The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

    ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ
    Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏė nāhī kẖa*o.
    His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

    ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
    Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7||
    O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

    ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ
    Sarīrang baikunṯẖ kė vāsī.
    The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

    ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ
    Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi*ā a*uṯrāsī.
    By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

    ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
    Kėsav cẖalaṯ karahi nirālė kīṯā loṛeh so ho*igā. ||8||
    The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

    ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ
    Nirāhārī nirvair samā*i*ā.
    He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

    ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ
    Ḏẖār kẖėl cẖaṯurbẖuj kahā*i*ā.
    He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.
    [Vishnu and Krishna]

    ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
    Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāveh bėṇ sunaṯ sabẖ mohaigā. ||9||
    He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||
    [Lord assumed the format of Krishna]
    ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ
    Banmālā bibẖūkẖan kamal nain.
    He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

    ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ
    Sunḏar kundal mukat bain.
    His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.
    [Lord Krishna]

    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
    Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||
    He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||
    [Lord Krishna]

    ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ
    Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.
    The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.
    [Lord Krishna]

    ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ
    Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.
    The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

    ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
    Sāringḏẖar bẖagvān bīṯẖulā mai gaṇaṯ na āvai sarbangā. ||11||
    The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||
    [Lord Krishna being referred to]

    ਨਿਹਕੰਟਕੁ ਨਿਹਕੇਵਲੁ ਕਹੀਐ
    Nihkantak nihkėval kahī*ai.
    He is said to be free of anguish, and absolutely immaculate.

    ਧਨੰਜੈ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਹੈ ਮਹੀਐ
    Ḏẖananjai jal thal hai mahī*ai.
    The Lord of prosperity, pervading the water, the land and the sky.


    Kindly seee the next page yourself @ ang 1083...........]
     
    #23 Sikh80, Jul 19, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  4. Canuck Singh

    Canuck Singh
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    I will be spending days to read this thread...
     
  5. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Hey cunuck....

    yes, Dear you should always . I do not know your age.
    I am 28 and have just started sikhi but am amazed as to how the elders mock at you when you ask something.
    Net result, you run to allied literature.
    Sikhism has a long way to go. My english is poor and expression is hopeless but I carry on.
    You should also do the same. Investigate everything and remember GOd is always one. Sikh's God cannot be different from the God of Muslims or Hindus.

    It is all but understanding that matters.


    Rest are the different routes prescribed by saints so that there is no traffic congestion on one particular route when we walk on the road that leads us to HIS home deep down the meadows..........where the solitary reaper reaps the filed........where the light of the sun sits on the bench outside His house and the birds do not chirp lest he be angry and the loin remains depressed lest the cows may be appreciated by the Hindus.....and Shivas and Brahmas stand up on the benches........as they are Hindus God and Goddess.....and Chitra Gupt does not know as he is appointed by Both of them i.e the God of Hindus and the Akaal purukh....

    But then it matters a little for I know nothing except that there is some energy that is maintaining the balance in this universe. The nature is kept in balance.

    The energy ,that controls this nature and the human activities sees that there is no excursions between the two ,is GOD ,
    ..... the essence.....Men have the subtle thing called as soul and that can know this.
    Soul is Akaal purukh itself.........[gurbani.]

    Einsteins reached the truth e=mc^^2
    Shiva and shakti......


    Love.







    ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਇਆ

    गुर परसादी पाइआ ॥
    Gur parsādī pā*i*ā.
    By Guru's Grace, I have found God. [who is Guru and who is god aad ji]

    ਤਿਥੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ
    तिथै माइआ मोहु चुकाइआ ॥
    Ŧithai mā*i*ā moh cẖukā*i*ā.
    By His Grace, I have shed emotional attachment to Maya.

    ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਆਪਣੀ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਸਮਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੧॥
    किरपा करि कै आपणी आपे लए समाइ जीउ ॥२१॥
    Kirpā kar kai āpṇī āpė la*ė samā*ė jī*o. ||21||
    Showering His Mercy, He has blended me into Himself. ||21||

    ਗੋਪੀ ਨੈ ਗੋਆਲੀਆ
    गोपी नै गोआलीआ ॥
    Gopī nai go*ālī*ā.
    You are the Gopis, the milk-maids of Krishna; You are the sacred river Jamunaa; You are Krishna, the herdsman.

    ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਇ ਉਠਾਲੀਆ
    तुधु आपे गोइ उठालीआ ॥
    Ŧuḏẖ āpė go*ė uṯẖālī*ā.
    You Yourself support the world.

    ਹੁਕਮੀ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਭੰਨਿ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੨॥
    हुकमी भांडे साजिआ तूं आपे भंनि सवारि जीउ ॥२२॥
    Hukmī bẖāʼndė sāji*ā ṯūʼn āpė bẖann savār jī*o. ||22||
    By Your Command, human beings are fashioned. You Yourself embellish them, and then again destroy them. ||22||

    ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ
    जिन सतिगुर सिउ चितु लाइआ ॥
    Jin saṯgur si*o cẖiṯ lā*i*ā.
    Those who have focused their consciousness on the True Guru,

    ਤਿਨੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ
    तिनी दूजा भाउ चुकाइआ ॥
    Ŧinī ḏūjā bẖā*o cẖukā*i*ā.
    have rid themselves of the love of duality.

    ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੋਤਿ ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀਆ ਓਇ ਚਲੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੩॥
    निरमल जोति तिन प्राणीआ ओइ चले जनमु सवारि जीउ ॥२३॥
    Nirmal joṯ ṯin parāṇī*ā o*ė cẖalė janam savār jī*o. ||23||
    The light of those mortal beings is immaculate. They depart after redeeming their lives. ||23||

    ਤੇਰੀਆ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ
    तेरीआ सदा सदा चंगिआईआ ॥
    Ŧėrī*ā saḏā saḏā cẖang*ā*ī*ā.
    Your Goodness, I forever,

    ਮੈ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਹੈ ਵਡਿਆਈਆਂ
    मै राति दिहै वडिआईआं ॥
    Mai rāṯ ḏihai vadi*ā*ī*āʼn.
    admire by night and day.


     
    • Like Like x 1
    #25 Sikh80, Jul 19, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  6. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Chand dino key Mehmaan hein Hum Adam jaat key
    Rab Milta Nahin.. .................................................Khuda Bolta nahin...
    Kyun Hum Larein.....................................................Bin Baat key.
     
  7. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Kyon tun Milta Nahin..
    Kyon ton dikhta nahin.
    .

    Jo bhe hoon Tera hoon..
    Ab Bula ley mujhey


    ..yeh ardas hey ..

    tujhko milunga ...ye merie aas hey..Rab hey ya khuda hey..ye teri Marzi hey..

    Tera Banda hoon...

    Na ye meeeri marzi thi ..na meri marzi hey..

    Ye ..teri khudgarzi thi..ye..teri kudgarzi hey.

    Wah Re Khuda.Khoob dekhi khudai Teri ..Khoob dekhi khudai teri....

    Duniya bhe teri wah wah bhe teri.......
     
  8. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    e=mc^^ 2

    aj mein tera banda haan tey toon khuda hein...

    Kal mein khuda ve ho sakda haan..............Rab janay 1000 juni tey 360 yugan dey baad....


    Par mein phir ve tera khidmatgaar hunga...ki toon aj te khuda hain....
    Khuda karay ke toon hamesha he khuda rahein...


    Wjkk WjkF
    [Rabba sub kujh vikha dey par 1984 dey dange na vekhain.......]

     
  9. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Toon mera karajgaar tha....aur rahega.....Tera hukum mana....kuch to karajgar rahega...


    Tonay chaha ke paida ......Ho...
    so hua....

    kuch to karjgaar rahega...
    Ya b,ut[statue] he tha..
    aur bana rahega...





    Wah rey teri khudai..
    Tughe he pasand na aye.....
    aur tonay duniya banai..


    Ek khel samajh kar...
    Ya majak samajh kar..


    Tooon mera karajgaar hey aur so rahega.
    [84 ke dange no karva deo phir, pehle bach gaya tha ab na bachaio mughe........... Brahma or krishna bhe ro parenge... Akaal purukh to sab ka hey....woh keon royega.....Bau thagni tooon maya...Meray maaan aur baap ko kha gaye tooon ...ek lavaris laash ko ....samjha gaye toon.]
     
  10. spnadmin

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    Sikh80 ji

    No need to feel sorry. Let me give two examples to make the point that my focus was not on pooja but on the translations.

    In the verse below the word Hindu, hindhoo, ਹਿੰਦੂ is clearly stated in Gurbani. The word Muslim is not, but rather thurak (Turk) is substituted. You can go back re-read my understanding of why thurak was used instead musalamaan if it is important.

    ਬੁਤ ਪੂਜਿ ਪੂਜਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਏ ਤੁਰਕ ਮੂਏ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਈ ॥
    buth pooj pooj hindhoo mooeae thurak mooeae sir naaee ||
    Worshipping their idols, the Hindus die; the Muslims die bowing their heads.


    In this verse the word ਹਿੰਦੂ does not appear at all. And hindhoo is not in the transliteration either. So what is the word Hindu doing in the English translation? Why is it there as "Hindu?"

    ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
    haj kaabai jaao n theerathh poojaa ||
    I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.


    My understanding: The translator put it there to clarify that the pooja (sacred shrines also the translator's translation) were Hindu shrines. That is it!

    Nothing at all to do with my appreciation of Punjabi, Hindi or Urdu. I am only wondering why you have such strong feelings about this one remark.
     
  11. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Yes,
    I am here and and shall take some time to consume that you have written .
    Bear with me pl.

     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    No problem Sikh80 ji. My brothers are very important to me.
     
  13. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Respected aad ji,

    I just crib that I am not rich enough to bring out a new commentary on SGGS ji. I am in touch with some sikh publishers. But not very hopeful.You are always right but get angry too soon and make it known also. Cheers!!!!

    Regards.


     
  14. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Thou art diplomatic. But Have a look at the following:
    Geeta about God
    "The unreal has no being and the real has no non-being; and the truth about both has also been seen by men who know the reality?"

    The unreal has no existence while the real is never non-existent.
     
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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  16. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Respected aad ji,

    U r there as a guest and I can smell it.
    our relationship is of prime significance and that is all that matters rest is all a follow up.
    warm regards.

    Krishn promises in verses 20-22 of Chapter 9 :

    "Men who do the pious deeds enjoined by the three Ved, who have tasted nectar and freed themselves from sin, and who wish for heavenly existence through worshipping me by yagya, go to heaven and enjoy godly pleasures for their virtuous acts."
     
  17. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    oh guest,
    y don'y u write something?


    There is also the suggestion here that the one who goes beyond the Ved, by knowing God, is a Brahmin. So, although the usefulness of the Ved does come' to an end for worshippers of the Brahmin class, there is no doubt about their utility for others. Krishn proclaims in the twenty-eighth verse of Chapter 8 that after having secured knowledge of the essence of God, the yogi goes beyond the rewards of Vedic scriptural study, sacrificial rites, penance, and charity, and thus attains to absolution.
     
  18. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Guest means some one on the Board and peeping behinds the curtain.


    Material prosperity is only an incidental concern of the Geeta and it is in this respect that it is different from THE VED. There are numerous allusions to them in the Geeta, but the sacred books of the Ved are altogether only milestones.

    The seeker has no use for them after he has reached his destination.

    So Arjun is prompted, in the forty-fifth verse of Chapter 2, that since all the books of the Ved provide illumination only within the limits of the three properties of nature, he should rise above them, liberate himself from the incongruities of joy and grief, rest on that which is constant, and be equally indifferent towards the acquisition of what he does not have and the protection of what he has, so as to devote himself intently to the Self within.


     
  19. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Khuda teri kudrat khudai ni hoti
    to
    maint ye bataine banai naan hoti....










    Respond if U wish.

     
  20. spnadmin

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    Veer jio,

    I don't understand what you mean as U r there as a guest and I can smell it -- seriously I don't know. Please explain. What place is "there" ? And don't tempt me on because I am in a very silly mood today.

    This is my close associate :}8-:. His name is krod. And he is being very silly too. It is the hot weather and lack of rain. Enough for now! Later when things calm down I will tackle one of the shabads about the spirituality of references to Hindu's in Gurbani. Warm regards,

    Antonia
     
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