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Sikhism : An Offshoot of Hinduism

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Sikh80, Jul 18, 2008.

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  1. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    After being here on SPN and going through the opinions of various members on The God and the creation,Karma, Liberation and allied concepts of sikhism It is not wrong to say that sikhism is just an ultra modern form of Hinduism or Vedantism.

    I do not have in depth knowledge of both the religions but to me it appears that both the religions are same there is superficial difference created for purpose.

    Excluding the outer appearance of the sikhs they intrinsically are just the Hindus.There is no essential difference between a sikh and a Hindu. If any one has a different opinion one may post and I shall reply mostly from Geeta i.e. stated to be the conceptually summarized format of Vedas and Upnishdas and some other booklets published by the Leading publishers on Hinduism. I shall also have the liberty of quoting the opinion of the members of this forum from the various posts.

    I am a sikh and have been trying to understand this as a different faith but fail to find any material difference between the two and do feel and understand as to why Indian Government has not classified it as a separate religion.


    You will have to bear with my presentation and my English.
     
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  3. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    I am totally dismayed by the comments of some members in the thread of Karmas and Will and etc,. and hence this dejection.
     
  4. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    No.

    There are some similarties with Hinduism but many differences. One could say Sikhi has commonality with other faiths. For example, Daswand is a Semitic concept and is prevalent in Christianity and Islam (I think).

    I anycase similarities with which branch of Hinduism? Vashnavite, Shivite? Hindu thought and belief is so difference it is difficult to define Hinduism, let alone comparing it with Sikhism.
     
  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sikh80 ji

    Why are you dismayed? For me Sikhism is not an offshoot of Hinduism, but that does not mean that we cannot continue to discuss similarities and differences.

    Another way to look at this is to say -- Sikhism and "Hinduism" with other religions comprise the dharmic traditions which include Sikhism, the Vedantic paths of India, Jainism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc.

    One can reasonably argue that there is no religion called "Hinduism."

    The actual term “Hindu” first occurs as an Old Persian geographical term (derived from the river sindhu), to identify the people who lived beyond the River Indus. However, the modern origin is derived from the Arabic texts - Al-Hind (the Hind) referring to 'the land of the people of modern day India' - which then got vernacularised as Hindu.[3] In the world history “Hindu” was also used by all Mughal Empires and towards the end of the eighteenth century by the British to refer to the people of “Hindustan”, the area of northern and adjoining northwestern India. Eventually “Hindu” became equivalent to anybody of “Indian” origin who was not otherwise Sikh, Jain, or belonged to a religion of Abrahamic denomination, thereby encompassing a wide range of religious beliefs and practices.[4]

    One of the accepted views is that “ism” was added to “Hindu” around 1830 to denote the culture and religion of the high-caste Brahmans in contrast to other religions. The term was soon appropriated by Indians themselves as they tried to establish a national identity opposed to colonialism. [4]

    Due to the wide diversity in the beliefs, practices and traditions encompassed by Hinduism, there is no universally accepted definition on who a Hindu is, or even agreement on whether Hinduism represents a religious, cultural or socio-political entity. In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling:[5]


    "When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion of creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

    Hindu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Dharmic religions have similarities. Yet, they all differ from each other in significant ways. Religion is a living and organic phenomenon, and it rises up from the questions that people ask about their relationship with "God" and the Cosmos, over and over again, throughout centuries. Therefore, transformations occur.

    There is an analogy with the evolution of forms in nature. New species rise up from an earlier genetic form. These newer and older forms share similar biological structures, perhaps many similar DNA markers. But each species also has genetic features that define it as a distinctly different species, making it different from its genetic relatives. So it goes with religious belief systems. Distinctive features that make a religion what it is.

    This is a pretty good description of what I am talking about
    Dharma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Guru Fateh! :)
     
  6. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Why No Randip ji.???

    ...It is immaterial with which branch of hinduism you compare the end result shall be the same. It is not about the GOd they believe in but the broad philosophy they profess. At macro level it is same. You may start at major differences of sikhism with any branch of hinduism as it is commonly understood.They are clear as to what they are doing though it may be professedly against sikhism but it does not mean that they are in any way inferior or sikhs are not doing the same things in almost similar ways.You may kindly take up few specific points that strikes to your mind.

    Regarding aad ji's query/observation it can be summed up as to the religion/faith that most Indians profess.Let that be for the sake of discussion be called as hinduism without indulging in hair splitting.

    Hindustan[India] means place of living of Hindus.

    Else you are free to think of all that Sikhism is all against and that is why it came into being as the starting point. Which ever way it suits you. You are the best judge to think it out. I do not want to get involved in definitions at this stage.let us leave those for the purposes of ironing out,if required at all.

    The definition of Hinduism as stated in wikipedia and as placed in aad ji's post is an excellent exposition of Hinduism. There cannot be any better wording for any faith or religion than that aad ji has quoted. Kudos to Hinduism.A religion without prophet But a religion Of God and for the God.

    And this is also a pretty nice work that I have talked about aad ji.

    01.Definition and Meaning Explained by aad ji

    "When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion of creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."


     
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  7. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Sikhism is not offshoot of Hinduism but an offshoot of Shiaism. Again there are many similarities but differences too. Do you want proof ?
     
  8. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    [quote=namjap;83277]Sikhism is not offshoot of Hinduism but an offshoot of Shiaism. Again there are many similarities but differences too. Do you want proof ?[/quote]

    Namjap ji, you seem to be joking.!!!!
    Cheers!!!

    We are discussiing Hinduism vs.Sikhism only.

    You may begin a new thread and I shall participate as a sikh and you may take up shia...Done.

    Cheers!!!!

    P.S
    Namjap ji , what happened to your signatures???
     
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sikhi80 ji

    You are sounding a little more upbeat!

    "When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion of creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

    These are the words of a Chief Justice in India, dated 1995. And my thinking has changed since reading this statement.

    Consider what he has said. Sikhism does worship a particular
    god, the kartaar purak(h)u, who is akaal miraat(t)h, who is Sat Nam. Sikhism does subscribe to dogma: i.e., a system of belief. Sikhism does uphold distinctive philosophic concepts. Sikhism does possess specific rites that Sikhs know and recognize as their own as Sikhs. Skhs have an identity as a religion. Even the British recognized this "Sikhi" as distinct.

    Hinduism has been a way to identify a religion or belief system only in the last century. It follows that Sikhism cannot be an offshoot of Hinduism because as a belief system, as a paanth, Sikhism has existed for a longer period of time than "Hinduism." This is not splitting hairs. Sikhs thought of themselves as Sikhs from the time of the Guru's and Sikh beliefs were institutionalized in 1708 and not the 20th Century.

    Like you, I think -- there have been Hindus as long as I have been alive. So I think there must have always been "hindus" and there must have always been "hinduism." But I was wrong. Who were the Hindu's before the time of the British raj, before the liberation of India?

    For centuries people of the vedas did not call themselves "Hindus." But today we call the people of old, "Hindus." What did the peoples of the al-hind call themselves then in terms of religion? For centuries the people of India did not label themselves first and foremost according to a particular religion. Society was primarily organized along the lines of clan, lineage and tribe. And a clan and a tribe were closely associated region, a place. Along with one's clan also came an identity from one's local culture - one's town or village. My guess is that religion and religious identity matched the religious practices of a particular region. The practices of a particular dera or mandir. These were people who followed a particular understanding of the vedas. They were not Hindus. They were people of the vedas as they understood these holy books.


    The root is belief in "dharma." From the root of dharmic philosophy come the shoots, several off-shoots, including Sikhism.


     
  10. pk70

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    Sikh 80 Ji
    Since its conception, Sikhism is being considered a part of the existing religions in India. To support it, quotes from here and there are given to fulfill hopeful dreams. Truth prevailed and would due to the total approach of Sikhism. Only, Amrit ceremony introduced by Guru Gobind Singh to turn victims into self defenders, alone stands tall against their imaginative claims; however, there are other basics concepts which are extremely different the way are described by Sikh founder like His Ordinance, His Grace and Mukti. To understand Sikhism, one has to look at the message of Guru Granth Sahib in totality. During guerrilla War, academic field was taken over by either disguised Hindus or the ones who had pretty much nostalgia of Hinduism. A lot of stuff is found in Rehatnamas written under the names of well known Sikhs which certainly is not part of Sikhi. Those cannot be verified with any Guru Bachan. Sohan Singh Seetal compiled a book” Sikh Sahit de some”( Sources of Sikh Literature) in which laughable contents are found that go totally against Historical facts.
    The society where Guru Nanak grew up in, had major two faiths, Islam and Hinduism though there were other sectarian ideology like Yog matt, Janism etc. Guru Nanak as enlightened one, had to address them in their own language and terminology to lead the seekers to the Ultimate Truth. Who were scared of this new religion of Guru Nanak, used same terminology as a base to blend this new religion.. Vashanavites and Hindus were those who declared that those terms were already in Vedas etc so Sikhs Gurus are aligned with those, therefore it is a kind of Hinduism and Vashanavism . Surprisingly all these terms are given new meaning in SGGS stressing only on His Nam and love for Him obtainable only through Guru but still it depends on His grace.
    This needs a thorough thesis to negate claims based on some similarities as they are there in every faith, however, lets take some examples from Guru Granth Sahib against Hinduism.
    Caste.System: In Hinduism, it is a base, in Balmiki Ramayin( Uttar Kand A 76)Ram Chandra is shown killing a person belonging to low class just because he was doing bhagati, on his beheading, Devtas shower flowers. That is the bottom line, if the revered Devta Ram Chand does such heinous crime for Caste System, imagine how much it is deep into the psyche of the followers, contrary to it, Sikh Guru makes his followers to drink from one pot. Strong rejection of Caste System , more ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ
    Salok mehlā 1. Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā*o. Sabẖnā jī*ā ikā cẖẖā*o. Āphu jė ko bẖalā kahā*ė. Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lėkẖai pā*ė. ||1||
    Slok, First Guru. Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. Some one may call himself good, but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak!

    ਚਾਰੇ ਪੈਰ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਨੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ
    chaaray pair dharam day chaari varani iku varanu karaaiaa|
    Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).( Bhai Gurdas Var 1)


    2AVTAR. In Hinduism, God incarnates individually, Gurbani rejects it by calling them kings who were called as God incarnation
    ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ
    Jugah jugah kė rājė kī*ė gāvahi kar avṯārī. Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā*i*ā ṯā kā ki*ā kar ākẖ vīcẖārī. ||7||
    In every age the Lord creates the Kings who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits. What shall I then say and reflect upon?
    ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤੇ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਲਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ
    Ḏas a*uṯār rājė ho*ė varṯė mahāḏėv a*uḏẖūṯā. Ŧinĥ bẖī anṯ na pā*i*o ṯėrā lā*ė thakė bibẖūṯā. ||3||
    There have been ten incarnations, Kings and forsakers like Shiva. They too found not thine limit, though some grew weary of smearing their body with ashes.
    When outright, importance of these so called Gods, in pursuit of the Creator, is rejected, there should be no doubt, Sikh path has an originality. For Sikhs He manifests in His creation but does not incarnate, illusionary approach has no boundaries though, so they keep beating their drums loudly, but facts are there against their imaginative conclusions
    Devta/Devi
    ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਸਭਿ ਦੇਵਾ ਕਾਲੁ ਛੋਡੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵਾ
    Mā*i*ā mohė ḏėvī sabẖ ḏėvā. Kāl na cẖẖodai bin gur kī sėvā. Oh abẖināsī alakẖ abẖėvā. ||2||
    Mammon has deluded all gods and goddesses. Death spares none without Guru's service. That Lord is Imperishable, Unseen, and Inscrutable.
    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ
    Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o ṯarai guṇ rogī vicẖ ha*umai kār kamā*ī. Jin kī*ė ṯiseh na cẖīṯeh bapuṛė har gurmukẖ sojẖī pā*ī. ||2||
    Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are afflicted with the ailment of three dispositions. They act in the spirit of I-am-ness. The poor ones remember not Him, who created them. The Lord's understanding is obtained, through the Guru.
    Fast
    Fasts are considered pious in Hinduism, Sikhism rejects them outright.
    ਅੰਨੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਥੀਜੈ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੀਜੈ
    Ann na kẖāhi ḏėhī ḏukẖ ḏījai. Bin gur gi*ān ṯaripaṯ nahī thījai. Manmukẖ janmai janam marījai. ||6||
    Some one takes, not food, and tortures his body. Without the Guru's wisdom he becomes not content. Such a perverse person is born only to die and be born again.
    Tithi Vaar ( good or bad omen)
    Hindus are grounded in initial pleasing of the demi gods they believe in before starting anything, according to Gurbani all these are chains of imaginative fears, Sikhs are advised to just thank HIM, do prayer to Him, that is it.
    ਸਗੁਨ ਅਪਸਗੁਨ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਹਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਆਵਈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਭਾਵੈ
    Sagun apasgun ṯis ka*o lageh jis cẖīṯ na āvai. Ŧis jam nėṛ na āvī jo har parabẖ bẖāvai. ||2||
    Good omens and bad omens befall him who remembers not the Lord. Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God.
    Pilgrimage
    Many faiths give pilgrimage extreme importance, in Hinduism it is vital to wash sins, Gurbani rejects it
    ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਫੈਲੁ ਲੋਕ ਪਚਾਰੈ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣੇ ਚਲਸਹਿ ਰੋਇ
    Ŧirath nā*ė na uṯras mail. Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ ha*umai fail. Lok pacẖārai gaṯ nahī ho*ė. Nām bihūṇė cẖalsahi ro*ė. ||2||
    Bathing at shrines, the filth departs not. The rituals and religious rites are all the ostentations of self-conceit. Pleasing the people, one is emancipated not. Without the Lord's Name, the screen is shattered not.
    ਮਹਲਾ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ਤੀਰਥੁਪੂਰਾਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਜੋਅਨਦਿਨੁਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਏ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ

    Mehlā 4. Jis ḏai anḏar sacẖ hai so sacẖā nām mukẖ sacẖ alā*ė. Oh har mārag āp cẖalḏā hornā no har mārag pā*ė. Jė agai ṯirath ho*ė ṯā mal lahai cẖẖapaṛ nāṯai sagvī mal lā*ė. Ŧirath pūrā saṯgurū jo an*ḏin har har nām ḏẖi*ā*ė. Oh āp cẖẖutā kutamb si*o ḏė har har nām sabẖ sarisat cẖẖadā*ė. Jan Nānak ṯis balihārṇai jo āp japai avrā nām japā*ė. ||2||
    Fourth Guru. He, within whom is the truth obtains the True Name and with his mouth utters the truth. He himself walks in God's way and puts others on God's path. If there be a pure water tank in front then the filth is washed off. By bathing in a pond, still more filth attaches to the man. The perfect place of pilgrimage is the True Guru who night and day meditates on the Name of Lord God. He is saved himself along with his family and by giving the Name of the Lord Master saves the whole world. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice unto him, who himself repeats God's Name and causes others to utter the Name.
    Tantar Mantar
    A part of Hinduism including other sectarian boxes, Sikhism considers it hypocrisy.
    ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਜਾਣਾ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਤੇ ਸੂਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ
    Ŧanṯ manṯ pakẖand na jāṇā rām riḏai man māni*ā. Anjan nām ṯisai ṯė sūjẖai gur sabḏī sacẖ jāni*ā. ||4||
    Enchantment, witchcraft and hypocrisy I know not, placing the Lord within my heart, my, my soul is pleased. The Name-salve is known from him alone, who by Guru's instruction realises the True Lord.
    Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha ji states that there are seven basics of Hinduism
    1 To accept Vedas as Truth
    2. To keep faith and to accept results of virtues and misdeeds are Heaven and Hell
    3 Believing in incarnation and seek liberation
    4 To believe Caste system as a base of the Hinduism
    5 Burn the dead
    6. Protect Cow
    7 Have faith in purity and impurity ( as contagious
    Now lets see Sikhism in this prospective
    1.The base of Sikhism is not Vedas, actually Vedas preach trade. For a Sikh only Gurbani is trueਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ੨੪
    Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.

    2All believers have faith, it is not only part of Hinduism, there is no special definition in Sikhism about Heavan and Hell save for their references as suffering due to turning back towards the creator.
    3Incarnation is not only believed by Hindus but also by ancient Egyptians and others, they were not known as Hindus because of it.so who believe in it, does not automatically become Hindu
    4Caste System has been rejected as described above
    5Well, it is not advocated by Sikhism, bodies of Guru Arjan Dev and Mata Ganga Ji were rested in water.
    6In Sikhism, Cow is not special pure animal as Hindus do.
    7In Sikhism, concept of purity is totally new, only through Nam Simran purity is obtained, in Hinduism there are many rituals to do purity.
    Gurus themselves declare
    ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ
    Bẖairo mehlā 5.
    Bhairo 5th Guru.

    ਵਰਤ ਰਹਉ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ
    varaṯ na raha*o na mah ramḏānā.
    I practise not fasting, not observe I the month of Ramzan.

    ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ
    Ŧis sėvī jo rakẖai niḏānā. ||1||
    I serve Him alone, who will save me in the end.
    Ėk gusā*ī alhu mėrā.
    The One Lord of the world is my God.

    ਹਿੰਦੂਤੁਰਕਦੁਹਾਂਨੇਬੇਰਾਰਹਾਉ
    Hinḏū ṯurak ḏuhāʼn nėbėrā. ||1|| rahā*o.
    He ministers justice to both the Hindus and Muslims. Pause.

    ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ
    Haj kābai jā*o na ṯirath pūjā.
    I go not on pilgrimage to Mecca, nor worship I at the holies.

    ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ
    Ėko sėvī avar na ḏūjā. ||2||
    I serve only the one Lord and not any other.

    ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ
    Pūjā kara*o na nivāj gujāra*o.
    I perform not Hindu worship, nor offer I Muslim prayer.

    ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ
    Ėk nirankār lė riḏai namaskāra*o. ||3||
    Taking the One Formless Lord into my mind, I make obeisance unto Him there.

    ਨਾਹਮਹਿੰਦੂਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ
    Nā ham hinḏū na musalmān.
    I am neither a Hindu, nor a Muslim.

    ਅਲਹਰਾਮਕੇਪਿੰਡੁਪਰਾਨ
    Alah rām kė pind parān. ||4||
    My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the Lord of Hindus.

    ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ
    Kaho Kabīr ih kī*ā vakẖānā.
    Says Kabir, this wise utter I the truth,
    ਏਕੁਗੁਸਾਈਅਲਹੁਮੇਰਾ
    Ėk gusā*ī alhu mėrā.
    The One Lord of the world is my God.
    ਹਿੰਦੂਤੁਰਕਦੁਹਾਂਨੇਬੇਰਾਰਹਾਉ
    Hinḏū ṯurak ḏuhāʼn nėbėrā. ||1|| rahā*o.
    He ministers justice to both the Hindus and Muslims. Pause.
    ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ
    Haj kābai jā*o na ṯirath pūjā.
    I go not on pilgrimage to Mecca, nor worship I at the holies.
    ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ
    Ėko sėvī avar na ḏūjā. ||2||
    I serve only the one Lord and not any other.
    ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ
    Pūjā kara*o na nivāj gujāra*o.
    I perform not Hindu worship, nor offer I Muslim prayer.
    ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ
    Ėk nirankār lė riḏai namaskāra*o. ||3||
    Taking the One Formless Lord into my mind, I make obeisance unto Him there.
    ਨਾਹਮਹਿੰਦੂਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ( Note Bhai Gurdas varifies this belief of Guru ji as a fact Var-1)
    Nā ham hinḏū na musalmān.
    I am neither a Hindu, nor a Muslim.
    ਅਲਹਰਾਮਕੇਪਿੰਡੁਪਰਾਨ
    Alah rām kė pind parān. ||4||
    My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the Lord of Hindus.
    ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਖਾਨਾ
    Kaho Kabīr ih kī*ā vakẖānā.
    Says Kabir, this wise utter I the truth,
    ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਖੁਦਿ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ
    Gur pīr mil kẖuḏ kẖasam pacẖẖānā. ||5||3||
    that meeting with the Guru the Prophet, I have realised my Lord.
    ਹਿੰਦੂਮੂਲੇਭੂਲੇਅਖੁਟੀਜਾਂਹੀ
    Hinḏū mūlė bẖūlė akẖutī jāʼnhī.
    The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord and are going the wrong way.( which wrong way? Answer is in the following Vaak)ਨਾਰਦਿਕਹਿਆਸਿਪੂਜਕਰਾਂਹੀ
    Nāraḏ kahi*ā se pūj karāʼnhī.
    As Narad instructed so they worship the idols.
    ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ
    Anḏẖė gungė anḏẖ anḏẖār.
    They are blind, dumb and the blindest of the blind.
    ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ
    Pāthar lė pūjeh mugaḏẖ gavār.
    The ignorant fools take stones and worship them.
    ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ
    Ohi jā āp dubė ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār. ||2||
    Those stones when they themselves sink, how shall they ferry thee across?

    Guru Nanak has given concept of falling in love and being imbued with His love while living in this world without abiding any order of religious rules which literally are chains in progression. Stress is to win over five primal forces. Concept of Ordnance, His Grace and new concept of Mukti having while being alive differ from any sectarian ideology existed before Guru Nanak; calling Guru panth “off shoot of Hinduism” is a sheer misunderstanding of Gurbani in its totality. Looking at a few similarities and jumping on conclusion that it is not different than Hinduism, is either based on immaturity or under the influence of propagated agenda of those who just want to blend this religion into their own so that new wave of believers should not question their limitations of their faith in pursuit of humanity of high level principles.

    NOTE Sikh 80 ji, Why do you need to be dismayed? Just because of reading comments of some who horribly failed to understand Gurbani in its totality. You have been advocating understanding Gurbani through the interpretation found in Guru granth sahib Ji itself. Why you feel dismayed? Aad0002 ji has given good reference how and from where all this Hindu thing” originated just to prove that before jumping on any conclusion, or criticizing others who have different faith than Sikhism, one should know what is base of all this. Surprisingly if you put Hinduism( as per Chief Justice' idea quoted by aad ji), to compare to other religions, it seems like a way of life rather than a religion, there are boxes within boxes. How then Sikhism can be called " off shoot" of it? A lot of truth lies in the words of Chief Justice though to some his words may sound strange. In that prospective too, Sikhism stands all alone.
    Same way, all who voilate Sikhs basic principles may call their own sect or cult, surely it cannot be Sikhism as per definition of Sikhism as a religion.

    Reference” Bhai Kahan Singh “ Ham Hindu Nahin “


     
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  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Jios Sikh80 and pk70,

    A little research turned up some interesting information about the origins and history of the term "Hindu." And most surprising to me was the fervor with which scholars of the so-called Hindu religion would prefer that the term be understood in its historical context. Their preference is that the many varieties of religious practice termed "Hindu" be instead named "sanatana dharma." Here is a summary of my research.


    1. The term “hindu" is not from the Sanskrit, and it is not found in the Vedic literature.

    2. Theories abound as to the origins of the word “hindu.”

    3. The Persian King Darius I referred to the inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent as "Hindus." Later Greek and Armenian conquerors adopted this term. The word "Hindu" occurs allegedly for the first time in the ancient Avestan language of Persia to refer to the peoples who lived in the region of the Indus River, or Sapta Sindhu.

    4. Alexander the Great renamed the River Sindhu as the Indus, to make it easier to pronounce in Greek.The river was thereafter known as the Indus River. The land east of the Indus (includes Punjab) became known as India. Muslim invaders from Afghanistan and Persia renamed the Sindhu River once again, calling it the Hindu River. Important to note that the sound of “S” in Sanskrit transliterates into “H” in Parsee the Persian language.The name, "Hindu," was used to describe all the conquered peoples who inhabited the lands in the northwestern provinces of India.

    5. The people of India did not refer to themselves as “hindu” initially. Rather, the word was used to identify both the people and the religion of the people by their Muslim overlords. Eventually, the people of the Indus region conformed to this practice and did refer to themselves as "Hindus."

    Suryanarayan (1952) writes “The political situation of our country from centuries past, say 20-25 centuries, has made it very difficult to understand the nature of this nation and its religion. The western scholars, and historians, too, have failed to trace the true name of this Brahmanland, a vast continent-like country, and therefore, they have contented themselves by calling it by that meaningless term ‘Hindu’. This word, which is a foreign innovation, is not made use by any of our Sanskrit writers and revered Acharyas in their works. It seems that political power was responsible for insisting upon continuous use of the word Hindu. The word Hindu is found, of course, in Persian literature. Hindu-e-falak means ‘the black of the sky’ and ‘Saturn’. In the Arabic language Hind not Hindu means nation. It is shameful and ridiculous to have read all along in history that the name Hindu was given by the Persians to the people of our country when they landed on the sacred soil of Sindhu.” (R. N. Suryanarayan in Universal Religions)


    6. The name “Hindu” during the period of Muslim rule was used to humiliate the Indian subjects. “The word means slave, and according to Islam, all those who did not embrace Islam were termed as slaves.” (Maharishi Shri Dayanand Saraswati Aur Unka Kaam, 1898). The term “Hindu” was also taken in Persian to mean “chore [thief], dakoo [dacoit], raahzan [waylayer], and ghulam [slave].” In another dictionary, Urdu-Feroze-ul-Laghat ," (Ibid, p. 615). The Persian meaning of the word Hindu is further described as barda (obedient servant), sia faam (balck color) and kaalaa (black) (Ibid, p. 615). .All intended to humiliate the people of India. The Muslim conquerors moreover did not distinquish among all the religious sects and beliefs of India during that time, merely referring to non-Muslims as Hindus.

    7. Eventually the British differentiated Muslims, Jains, Sikhs and Zoroastrians by assigning the term “Hindu” to any Brahmin who was an inhabitant of Hindustan.

    8. Some argue that the ancient Indian scholars did use the word “hindu” to designate inhabitants of “Hindustan.”

    Examples:

    Aaasindo Sindhu Paryantham Yasyabharatha Bhoomikah, MathruBhuh Pithrubhoochaiva sah Vai Hindurithismrithaah

    Sapta sindhu muthal Sindhu maha samudhram vareyulla Bharatha bhoomi aarkkellamaano, Mathru bhoomiyum Pithru bhoomiyumayittullathu, avaraanu hindukkalaayi ariyappedunnathu.


    Both verses from the Padma Purana. Both describing Hindustan as the land between the Sindhu and the Indian Ocean. Both use the words bhoomiha, and bharatha bhoomi, which are properly translated to be Mother Earth or all of India. All the inhabitants of bharata are Hindu according to the purana.

    Other verses indicate that the region between the Himalayas and the Indian ocean is Hindustan. And the modern understanding of Hindustan is equally vague: Hindustan a vaguely defined region, generally taken to include either the Gangetic Plain in northern India or all of northern India from the state of Assam (in the east) to that of Punjab (in the west), where Hindi, the official language of India, is spoken. Hindustan has also been applied at times to mean the entire Indian subcontinent and sometimes solely to the republic of India.

    This definition is found also in the Brihanmaradi Purana in the verse: himalayam samarabhya yavat bindusarovaram, hindusthanamiti qyatam hi antaraksharayogatah

    “The country lying between the Himalayan mountains and Bindu Sarovara (Cape Comorin sea) is known as Hindusthan...."

    From my quck investigation it seems that the word "Hindu" for many centuries was a regional designation and referred to a region and its people. It was not initially connected to religion. Many scholars prefer to use the Sanskrit term of sanatana-dharma because it is more descriptive of “Hindusim” as a religious belief system. My apologies if I offend anyone, or if these words are commonly known information that need not be repeated.

    My next quest is to try to understand what Guru Nanak meant when he himself used the term ਹਿੰਦੂ "Hindu." As in pk70's ji's quoted shabad above: ਹਿੰਦੂਮੂਲੇਭੂਲੇਅਖੁਟੀਜਾਂਹੀ Hinḏū mūlė bẖūlė akẖutī jāʼnhī. The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord and are going the wrong way.

    :)
    References

    About The Name "Hindu"
    APPENDIX 3 - MEANING OF THE WORD HINDU
    Sanatana Dharma and Hinduism by Dr. R.K. Lahiri, Ph.D
    Hinduism or Hindu dharma by Dr. Subhash C. Sharma
     
  12. pk70

    pk70
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    aad0002 Ji,
    Very good job to post it for other viewers to see it. I read Surya Narayen's remarks before too. It just proves that the invaders renamed " sanatna Dharm" as Hinduism as most of the believers accept it as compliment than an insult. Guru Nanak addresses almost all prevailed sects, cults and faiths; his views came in context of Brahamnism, the diety worshipers and believers of Caste System. Under that kind of practice, many other sects were mashrooming for a long time. Guru strongly exposed the hypocratic approach of Brahamans and other sects prevailed under the same shade to exploit gerneral public That was the main reason, fanatic Hindu Daya Nand got angry and said very derogatory words against Guru Nanak.
    Trying to call Guru Nanak's panth an off shoot of Hinduism is an obvious effort to blend it in Hinduism or its sects to reduce its significance in progression of humanity. Almost over hundred years ago Bhai Kahn Singh protested this forceful renaming of Sikhism in a small book called " Ham Hindu Nahin", even today we face the same false propaganda.:eek: Thanks.
     
  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    pk70 ji

    This is good background knowledge -- so I appreciate it. Next is to take a look at the 23 examples where Guru Nanak uses the word "hindu."
     
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev, and Bhagats Kabir and Nam Dev have all uttered the word Hindu in the shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Nanak indicates he is neither Hindu nor Muslim. ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥ naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan || I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

    Guruji's words at first glance seem to contradict the historical record that reports that the inhabitants of those regions of India, conquered by the Persians, Moghuls and Turks, never referred to themselves as Hindus until a much later point in time. Some time later they adapted to the label of Hindu even though the term Hindu was used to humiliate the people of India and remind them of their slave-like status.

    Using searchgurbani.com I found a number of instances where ਹਿੰਦੂ hindhoo appears. I eliminated all the verses where the translator added the word hindhoo when in fact the word was not in the original Gurbani, and the translator had done this only to clarify another word, such as pooja, to mean Hindu ritual.

    Below are examples where it appears that Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev, Sant Kabir and Sant Nam Dev, as indicated by the scholars of sanatana dharma, use the geographical or regional meaning of the word “Hindu” and are not using it in the religious sense. My inference is based on this. In each verse, Muslims are referred to in some grammatical form of thurak, Turks. In other words, by their land of origin. It is more likely than not that hindhoo is being used in the same way – in terms of homeland (living near the Hindu River) rather than religious belief.

    Ang 237 Line 12 Raag Gaurhee: Guru Arjan Dev

    ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
    jaath varan thurak ar hindhoo ||
    Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;

    Ang 340 Line 7 Raag Gaurhee Poorbee: Saint Kabir

    ਤੁਰਕ ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
    thurak thareekath jaaneeai hindhoo baedh puraan ||
    The Muslim knows the Muslim way of life; the Hindu knows the Vedas and Puraanas.


    Ang 477 Line 14 Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥
    hindhoo thurak kehaa thae aaeae kin eaeh raah chalaaee ||
    Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?


    Ang 479 Line 3 Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥
    hindhoo thurak dhooo samajhaavo ||4||4||13||
    I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ||4||4||13||

    Ang 483 Line 8 Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੈ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ॥੩॥੭॥੨੯॥
    hindhoo thurak dhuhoon mehi eaekai kehai kabeer pukaaree ||3||7||29||
    The One Lord is within both Hindu and Muslim; Kabeer proclaims this out loud. ||3||7||29||

    Ang 654 Line 5 Raag Sorith: Saint Kabir

    ਬੁਤ ਪੂਜਿ ਪੂਜਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਏ ਤੁਰਕ ਮੂਏ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਈ ॥
    buth pooj pooj hindhoo mooeae thurak mooeae sir naaee ||
    Worshipping their idols, the Hindus die; the Muslims die bowing their heads.

    Ang 875 Line 2 Raag Bilaaval Gond: Saint Nam Dev

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥
    hindhoo annhaa thurakoo kaanaa ||
    The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye.


    Ang 885 Line 10 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

    ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
    koee kehai thurak koee kehai hindhoo ||
    Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu.

    Ang 1136 Line 10 Raag Bhaira-o: Guru Arjan Dev

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    hindhoo thurak dhuhaan naebaeraa ||1|| rehaao ||
    He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||

    Ang 1158 Line 10 Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Kabir

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕ ॥
    hindhoo thurak kaa saahib eaek ||
    Hindus and Muslims have the same One Lord and Master.


    There are other verses where a religious affiliation seems to be the more likely meaning of both Hindu and Muslim. Again the inference, Muslims are called mussalaman – an older and generic term for Muslim – and the word means “one who submits to God.” In other words Muslims have been described in terms of religious belief or practice. So why not also Hindus in these verses?


    Ang 875 Line 3 Raag Bilaaval Gond: Saint Nam Dev

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥
    hindhoo poojai dhaehuraa musalamaan maseeth ||
    The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.


    Ang 952 Line 4 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

    ਹੋਰੁ ਫਕੜੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੈ ॥
    hor fakarr hindhoo musalamaanai ||
    Others, whether Hindu or Muslim, are just babbling.


    Ang 1136 Line 11 Raag Bhaira-o: Guru Arjan Dev

    ਨਾ ਹਮ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ॥
    naa ham hindhoo n musalamaan ||
    I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.


    This leaves several verses where a more spiritual meaning is hinted for “Hindu.” It would be interesting to look at these very closely in the context of the entire shabad to understand Guruji’s meaning of hindhoo in these verses.

    Ang 465 Line 18 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਨਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
    hindhoo saalaahee saalaahan dharasan roop apaar ||
    The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.


    Ang 477 Line 18 Raag Aasaa: Saint Kabir

    ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
    aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3||
    She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||


    Ang 556 Line 9 Raag Bihaagrhaa: Guru Nanak Dev

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
    hindhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaanhee ||
    The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.


    Ang 951 Line 16 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

    ਐਸਾ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
    aisaa hindhoo vaekhahu koe ||
    Behold, such is the Hindu.

    Ang 951 Line 18 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਆਵੈ ॥
    hindhoo kai ghar hindhoo aavai ||
    The Hindu comes to the house of a Hindu.

    Ang 1160 Line 4 Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Kabir

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਰੈ ॥
    hindhoo raam naam oucharai ||
    The Hindu utters the Name of Raam.

    Ang 1165 Line 19 Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Nam Dev

    ਇਨਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਲਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ॥੯॥
    ein hindhoo maeraa maliaa maan ||9||
    but this Hindu has trampled my honor.""||9||

    Ang 1166 Line 8 Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Nam Dev

    ਬਖਸੀ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੈ ਤੇਰੀ ਗਾਇ ॥੨੨॥
    bakhasee hindhoo mai thaeree gaae ||22||
    "Forgive me, please, O Hindu; I am just a cow before you."||22||

    Ang 1166 Line 10 Raag Bhaira-o: Saint Nam Dev

    ਮਿਲਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਭ ਨਾਮੇ ਪਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨੫॥
    mil hindhoo sabh naamae pehi jaahi ||25||
    The Hindus all went together to Naam Dayv. ||25||

    It is possible that hindhoo has 3 different contexts of use in Gurbani, and therefore 3 different meanings.
     
  15. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Respected Pk70 ji,

    Point wiseAnswer to your post

    I am trying to answer you point wise without raising any question on Sikhism. I have the view that in Sikhism basics are not clear to many Learned Sikhs. How can an ordinary person with ordinary intellect be a sikh in true sense of word.? I understand your concern for the young Sikhs but then we have everything that he blesses us with. Kindly go through the following with open mind. I shall take up the answers and replies once this is suitably absorbed and any points of differences are pointed out for amicable resolution.


    Only, Amrit ceremony introduced by Guru Gobind Singh to turn victims into self defenders, alone stands tall against their imaginative claims; however, there are other basics concepts which are extremely different the way are described by Sikh founder like His Ordinance, His Grace and Mukti.


    Amrit Ceremony
    Amrit ceremony is a ritual particular to a faith hence I have no comments on this as I do not want to hurt any one and that cannot be the intention of the author of the post.

    As a first post my reactions are very mild to all the points that you have raised. Needless to mention sikhi can be challenged on the very basis of the standard Ardas. I shall do it after seeing the progress of the thread.


    Essential ingredients


    In any religion, worth the name, all these are the essential ingredients, His order or the divine order and the His grace and the liberation. Each and every religion leads to Mukti and should do so to enable it to be called as Mukti or liberation. The religion that does not tell us clearly as to how to reach HIM is not a religion at all.There is nothing new in that you have stated above.

    Vedas and Staus as per Bani

    The Vedas are stated to be the words of God. Bani admits it at more than one place and in fact, entire Granth sahib is spilled over by these references. Bani has also stated that Vedas were the words uttered by The intangible entity called as God or ‘waheguru’ by whatever name called.

    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.[p2L8]

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥


    By listening to Naam one gets the benefit of the knowledge of Shastras and Vedas.Thus by Listening to Naam [ which is not known to a sikh] one gets the reward of the entire wisdom contained in Vedasa. With due regards and respect to the Gurus, I do not disagree with this .But Naam is a vehicle that leads to the holy knowledge and the divinity contained in Vedas.


    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਵੇਦ ॥

    Guru nanak has time and again claimed that all including Vedas sing of you, the Creator!! So where is the big difference. The Supreme entity has been the same and is the same as has been proclaimed in Vedas that was the origin of the organized format of the divinity.

    In so dar- Raag Aasaa , Guru Nanak dev ji admits that all sing your praises. Hindus sing through Vedas and Sikhs do praises through Nitnem and simran.The methodology or remembering HIM is different. This difference is bound to be there on account of time and the practices adopted and followed over different period of times. It does not mean at all that Sikhs have discarded these Hly and the most ancient Books or the scriptures. At no place Gurus have stated against the Vedas that is stated to be the store house of knowledge including Naam and its significance.


    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
    ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ
    Where is That Door of Yours, and where is That Home, in which You sit and take care of all?
    ਵਾਜੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ
    The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there for You, and countless musicians play all sorts of instruments there for You.
    ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ
    There are so many Ragas and musical harmonies to You; so many minstrels sing hymns of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ
    Wind, water and fire sing of You. The Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ
    Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who keep the record of actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who reads this record, sing of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ
    Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned by You, sing of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ
    Indra, seated on His Throne, sings of You, with the deities at Your Door.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਾਧ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ
    The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing of You; the Saadhus sing of You in contemplation.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ
    The celibates, the fanatics, and the peacefully accepting sing of You; the fearless warriors sing of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸੁਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ
    The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲੇ
    The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in paradise, in this world, and in the underworld of the subconscious, sing of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ
    The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, sing of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ
    The brave and mighty warriors sing of You. The spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing of You.
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਧਾਰੇ
    The worlds, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing of You.
    ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ
    They alone sing of You, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with Your Sublime Essence.
    ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ
    So many others sing of You, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I think of them all?
    ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ
    That True Lord is True, forever True, and True is His Name.
    ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ
    He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs.
    ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ
    He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya.
    ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ
    Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness.
    ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ
    He does whatever He pleases. No one can issue any order to Him.
    ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੧॥
    He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||1||

    Yes, the Almighty is one and is supremus has been also stated so in Vedas as well as is also admitted in bani. In Sri-Rag Guru Nanak ji states as follows. He states that everything stated in his philosophy in the following ‘sabad’is also proclaimed in Vedas. Hence Sikhism is all but an adopted faith from Vedas and Upnishdas and rest is decorative part and minor adjustments.

    ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਦੇਹ ਸਰੀਰੁ
    Through the Guru, the Pure One is known, and the human body becomes pure as well.
    ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਸਾਚੋ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਭ ਪੀਰ
    The Pure, True Lord abides within the mind; He knows the pain of our hearts.
    ਸਹਜੈ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਅਗਲੋ ਨਾ ਲਾਗੈ ਜਮ ਤੀਰੁ ॥੧॥
    With intuitive ease, a great peace is found, and the arrow of death shall not strike you. ||1||
    ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜਲਿ ਨਾਇ
    O Siblings of Destiny, filth is washed away by bathing in the Pure Water of the Name.
    ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਏਕੁ ਤੂ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੈਲੁ ਭਰੀ ਸਭ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    You alone are Perfectly Pure, O True Lord; all other places are filled with filth. ||1||Pause||
    ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਕੀਆ ਕਰਣੈਹਾਰਿ
    The Temple of the Lord is beautiful; it was made by the Creator Lord.
    ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਦੀਪ ਅਨੂਪ ਜੋਤਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਪਾਰ
    The sun and the moon are lamps of incomparably beautiful light. Throughout the three worlds, the Infinite Light is pervading.
    ਹਾਟ ਪਟਣ ਗੜ ਕੋਠੜੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਉਦਾ ਵਾਪਾਰ ॥੨॥
    In the shops of the city of the body, in the fortresses and in the huts, the True Merchandise is traded. ||2||
    ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨਾ ਦੇਖੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਭਾਇ
    The ointment of spiritual wisdom is the destroyer of fear; through love, the Pure One is seen.
    ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੁ ਸਭ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜੇ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਠਾਇ
    The mysteries of the seen and the unseen are all known, if the mind is kept centered and balanced.
    ਐਸਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਸਹਜੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੩॥
    If one finds such a True Guru, the Lord is met with intuitive ease. ||3||
    ਕਸਿ ਕਸਵਟੀ ਲਾਈਐ ਪਰਖੇ ਹਿਤੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ
    He draws us to His Touchstone, to test our love and consciousness.
    ਖੋਟੇ ਠਉਰ ਪਾਇਨੀ ਖਰੇ ਖਜਾਨੈ ਪਾਇ
    The counterfeit have no place there, but the genuine are placed in His Treasury.
    ਆਸ ਅੰਦੇਸਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਇਉ ਮਲੁ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥
    Let your hopes and anxieties depart; thus pollution is washed away. ||4||
    ਸੁਖ ਕਉ ਮਾਗੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਕੋਇ
    Everyone begs for happiness; no one asks for suffering.
    ਸੁਖੈ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲਾ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝ ਹੋਇ
    But in the wake of happiness, there comes great suffering. The self-willed manmukhs do not understand this.
    ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥
    Those who see pain and pleasure as one and the same find peace; they are pierced through by the Shabad. ||5||


    ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਵਾਚੀਐ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਿਆਸੁ

    The Vedas proclaim, and the words of Vyaasa tell us,
    ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਾਧਿਕਾ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ
    that the silent sages, the servants of the Lord, and those who practice a life of spiritual discipline are attuned to the Naam, the Treasure of Excellence.

    ਸਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਜਿਣਿ ਗਏ ਹਉ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ ਜਾਸੁ ॥੬॥

    Those who are attuned to the True Name win the game of life; I am forever a sacrifice to them. ||6||
    ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮੈਲੇ ਮਲੁ ਭਰੇ ਜਿਨ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੋਇ
    Those who do not have the Naam in their mouths are filled with pollution; they are filthy throughout the four ages.
    ਭਗਤੀ ਭਾਇ ਵਿਹੂਣਿਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਕਾਲਾ ਪਤਿ ਖੋਇ
    Without loving devotion to God, their faces are blackened, and their honor is lost.
    ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੁਠੀ ਰੋਇ ॥੭॥
    Those who have forgotten the Naam are plundered by evil; they weep and wail in dismay. ||7||
    ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਪਾਇਆ ਡਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ
    I searched and searched, and found God. In the Fear of God, I have been united in His Union.
    ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਘਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਜਾਇ
    Through self-realization, people dwell within the home of their inner being; egotism and desire depart.
    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਊਜਲੇ ਜੋ ਰਾਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇ ॥੮॥੭॥
    O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Name of the Lord are immaculate and radiant. ||8||7

    Philosophy Of Vedas apprecuated in bani

    Admittedly the entire philosophy is contained in Vedas. Bani has not rejected it. It has reinforced that the route to the Lord is through the Naam. What is the Naam? Sikhs have their doubts. Vedas are clear about this. If Bani is the word of God for Sikhs the Vedas are the word of God for almost all. It is admitted so in bani. If further indulgence is required I shall do that for the benefit of the discussion.


    To understand Sikhism, one has to look at the message of Guru Granth Sahib in totality. During guerrilla War, academic field was taken over by either disguised Hindus or the ones who had pretty much nostalgia of Hinduism. A lot of stuff is found in Rehatnamas written under the names of well known Sikhs which certainly is not part of Sikhi. Those cannot be verified with any Guru Bachan. Sohan Singh Seetal compiled a book” Sikh Sahit de some”( Sources of Sikh Literature) in which laughable contents are found that go totally against Historical facts.


    I am not stating that Sikhism is subject to be laughed at. In fact, this discussion would become baseless if I do so and vice versa.

    The society where Guru Nanak grew up in, had major two faiths, Islam and Hinduism though there were other sectarian ideology like Yog matt, Janism etc. Guru Nanak as enlightened one, had to address them in their own language and terminology to lead the seekers to the Ultimate Truth. Who were scared of this new religion of Guru Nanak, used same terminology as a base to blend this new religion.. Vashanavites and Hindus were those who declared that those terms were already in Vedas etc so Sikhs Gurus are aligned with those, therefore it is a kind of Hinduism and Vashanavism . Surprisingly all these terms are given new meaning in SGGS stressing only on His Nam and love for Him obtainable only through Guru but still it depends on His grace.

    Essentials of any Religions

    All religions state that HIS grace is a must. This is something implied. Sikhs admit it in explicit manner. His Naam and Grace are also the essence of the Hinduism that I am talking of. I shall put forward the same as and when required. As some of you may not feel very comfortable ab inito, I postpone it for the time being.


    This needs a thorough thesis to negate claims based on some similarities as they are there in every faith, however, lets take some examples from Guru Granth Sahib against Hinduism.


    Caste.System: In Hinduism, it is a base, in Balmiki Ramayin( Uttar Kand A 76)Ram Chandra is shown killing a person belonging to low class just because he was doing bhagati, on his beheading, Devtas shower flowers. That is the bottom line, if the revered Devta Ram Chand does such heinous crime for Caste System, imagine how much it is deep into the psyche of the followers, contrary to it, Sikh Guru makes his followers to drink from one pot. Strong rejection of Caste System , more ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ ॥੧॥
    Salok mehlā 1. Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā*o. Sabẖnā jī*ā ikā cẖẖā*o. Āphu jė ko bẖalā kahā*ė. Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lėkẖai pā*ė. ||1||
    Slok, First Guru. Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. Some one may call himself good, but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak!


    I have not deleted this on account of the fact that your understanding is different from that we have about Ram Chandra. Ram Chandra , a s a generic name tells, was Incarnation of God and bani admits this as well. In fact one of the favorite name of the God is Ram in bani. Kindly do not distort the things for the sake of discussion. Bani of Bhagats contain many reference of Ram. Also state that you are sure of. Your reference, allusion and hence the conclusions are simply lop-sided and heavily tilted to win over the discussion and to mislead the readers. What is caste system.??? Interpreters usually endeavor to hit upon something novel. But truth is, of course, truth. It is neither ever new, nor does it ever grow old. Fresh issues that find a place in newspaper columns are but temporal events that emerge one day and disappear on the next. It is that has happened with caste system. Caste system was there for reasons when it had its origin and when it came into being. It was based on the concept of economics that is division of labor. Gurus had not liked caste system and had discarded it for reasons and there is not much space for discussion. We take policy decisions over a period of time these decisions are not found worthy of being good to the society and at one point or another these gets diluted with passage of time and new decisions have to be taken after having a re look at the situations and the social disparities.

    Do you not agree that with passage of just 400 years castes have not appeared in /amongst Sikhs? Surely, these have and even the basis of marriages are based on castes. I shall not be in this discussion for the time being. Do you then mean that at some point Sikhism shall also have to be discarded? No, it is not the basic sikh philosophy, if any, that shall have to be discarded but SGPC should do the needful to keep Sikhism intact. So whatever, the Gurus saw they tried to rectify it only so that the social order is/was not disturbed. That being so the basic edifice was never challenged. Yes, some flaws were pointed out for carrying out the improvement.


    In fact , Bani addresses Ram as God.


    ਰਘੁਬੰਸਿ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਦਸਰਥ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਬੰਛਹਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੰ
    He is certified, like the handsome Ram Chander in the house of Dasrath of the Raghwa dynasty. Even the silent sages seek His Sanctuary.
    [page1401/l19]

    Who is Certified?kindly look into this yourself and you shall get the answer.

    2AVTAR. In Hinduism, God incarnates individually, Gurbani rejects it by calling them kings who were called as God incarnation

    ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੭॥
    Jugah jugah kė rājė kī*ė gāvahi kar avṯārī. Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā*i*ā ṯā kā ki*ā kar ākẖ vīcẖārī. ||7||
    In every age the Lord creates the Kings who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits. What shall I then say and reflect upon?
    ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤੇ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਲਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ॥੩॥
    Ḏas a*uṯār rājė ho*ė varṯė mahāḏėv a*uḏẖūṯā. Ŧinĥ bẖī anṯ na pā*i*o ṯėrā lā*ė thakė bibẖūṯā. ||3||
    There have been ten incarnations, Kings and forsakers like Shiva. They too found not thine limit, though some grew weary of smearing their body with ashes.
    When outright, importance of these so called Gods, in pursuit of the Creator, is rejected, there should be no doubt, Sikh path has an originality. For Sikhs He manifests in His creation but does not incarnate, illusionary approach has no boundaries though, so they keep beating their drums loudly, but facts are there against their imaginative conclusions
    Devta/Devi
    ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਸਭਿ ਦੇਵਾ ਕਾਲੁ ਛੋਡੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਵਾ ॥੨॥
    Mā*i*ā mohė ḏėvī sabẖ ḏėvā. Kāl na cẖẖodai bin gur kī sėvā. Oh abẖināsī alakẖ abẖėvā. ||2||
    Mammon has deluded all gods and goddesses. Death spares none without Guru's service. That Lord is Imperishable, Unseen, and Inscrutable.
    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
    Barahmā bisan mahāḏė*o ṯarai guṇ rogī vicẖ ha*umai kār kamā*ī. Jin kī*ė ṯiseh na cẖīṯeh bapuṛė har gurmukẖ sojẖī pā*ī. ||2||
    Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are afflicted with the ailment of three dispositions. They act in the spirit of I-am-ness. The poor ones remember not Him, who created them. The Lord's understanding is obtained, through the Guru.

    Avtaars and bani

    Avtaars are the incarnations of God. Sikhism rejects the idea of it. Unquote

    Dear Sir, Sikhism admit its Gurus as Avtaars.

    Need I give the tuks and Lines of Bhatts.? I do not want to do this at all.
    In fact majority of fanatics in Sikhs believe that Guru nanak was the creator Himself. Kindly refer page 1401. Gurus admittedly stated so and many Sikhs also state and believe it like this and on very this forum.



    Fast
    Fasts are considered pious in Hinduism, Sikhism rejects them outright.
    ਅੰਨੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਥੀਜੈ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੀਜੈ ॥੬॥
    Ann na kẖāhi ḏėhī ḏukẖ ḏījai. Bin gur gi*ān ṯaripaṯ nahī thījai. Manmukẖ janmai janam marījai. ||6||
    Some one takes, not food, and tortures his body. Without the Guru's wisdom he becomes not content. Such a perverse person is born only to die and be born again.


    Fasts are the practices that are performed for physical cleaning and many Sikhs do practice it if not as a religious practice but to keep them physically fit. In any case it is faith only and not a matter of religion. Even if it is practiced by some it does not change the basic philosophy underlying the Hinduism.
    Will I become a Hindu if I keep fast as a vow to improve upon some of my unwanted habits?


    Tithi Vaar ( good or bad omen)
    Hindus are grounded in initial pleasing of the demi gods they believe in before starting anything, according to Gurbani all these are chains of imaginative fears, Sikhs are advised to just thank HIM, do prayer to Him, that is it.
    ਸਗੁਨ ਅਪਸਗੁਨ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਹਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਆਵਈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
    Sagun apasgun ṯis ka*o lageh jis cẖīṯ na āvai. Ŧis jam nėṛ na āvī jo har parabẖ bẖāvai. ||2||
    Good omens and bad omens befall him who remembers not the Lord. Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God.



    Yes, it is true for Sikhs as well. What is the meaning of this line that you have quoted? It is irrelevant as death strikes all and does not know or discriminates between the Sikhs or Hindus.All die the same death.

    Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God.




    Pilgrimage
    Many faiths give pilgrimage extreme importance, in Hinduism it is vital to wash sins, Gurbani rejects it
    ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਫੈਲੁ ਲੋਕ ਪਚਾਰੈ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣੇ ਚਲਸਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੨॥
    Ŧirath nā*ė na uṯras mail. Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ ha*umai fail. Lok pacẖārai gaṯ nahī ho*ė. Nām bihūṇė cẖalsahi ro*ė. ||2||
    Bathing at shrines, the filth departs not. The rituals and religious rites are all the ostentations of self-conceit. Pleasing the people, one is emancipated not. Without the Lord's Name, the screen is shattered not.
    ਮਹਲਾ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ਤੀਰਥੁਪੂਰਾਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਜੋਅਨਦਿਨੁਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਏ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ ॥੨॥

    Mehlā 4. Jis ḏai anḏar sacẖ hai so sacẖā nām mukẖ sacẖ alā*ė. Oh har mārag āp cẖalḏā hornā no har mārag pā*ė. Jė agai ṯirath ho*ė ṯā mal lahai cẖẖapaṛ nāṯai sagvī mal lā*ė. Ŧirath pūrā saṯgurū jo an*ḏin har har nām ḏẖi*ā*ė. Oh āp cẖẖutā kutamb si*o ḏė har har nām sabẖ sarisat cẖẖadā*ė. Jan Nānak ṯis balihārṇai jo āp japai avrā nām japā*ė. ||2||
    Fourth Guru. He, within whom is the truth obtains the True Name and with his mouth utters the truth. He himself walks in God's way and puts others on God's path. If there be a pure water tank in front then the filth is washed off. By bathing in a pond, still more filth attaches to the man. The perfect place of pilgrimage is the True Guru who night and day meditates on the Name of Lord God. He is saved himself along with his family and by giving the Name of the Lord Master saves the whole world. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice unto him, who himself repeats God's Name and causes others to utter the Name.


    Hindus do believe in Naam as has been proclaimed by Vedas and admitted by bani.The following is quoted from introduction to geeta.


    “The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta]

    When a man is surrounded by the ocean on all sides, he has no use for a pond. Just so a Brahmin who has gained knowledge of the Supreme Spirit has no use for the Ved. That means that the one who knows God transcends HE knows all that is to be known.”

    Tantar Mantar
    A part of Hinduism including other sectarian boxes, Sikhism considers it hypocrisy.
    ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਜਾਣਾ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਤੇ ਸੂਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ
    Ŧanṯ manṯ pakẖand na jāṇā rām riḏai man māni*ā. Anjan nām ṯisai ṯė sūjẖai gur sabḏī sacẖ jāni*ā. ||4||
    Enchantment, witchcraft and hypocrisy I know not, placing the Lord within my heart, my, my soul is pleased. The Name-salve is known from him alone, who by Guru's instruction realises the True Lord.
    Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha ji states that there are seven basics of Hinduism
    1 To accept Vedas as Truth
    2. To keep faith and to accept results of virtues and misdeeds are Heaven and Hell
    3 Believing in incarnation and seek liberation
    4 To believe Caste system as a base of the Hinduism
    5 Burn the dead
    6. Protect Cow
    7 Have faith in purity and impurity ( as contagious
    Now lets see Sikhism in this prospective



    1.The base of Sikhism is not Vedas, actually Vedas preach trade. For a Sikh only Gurbani is trueਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥
    Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.


    Yes, Hindus also believe that without Lord everything is False.


    “The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta]

    When a man is surrounded by the ocean on all sides, he has no use for a pond. Just so a Brahmin who has gained knowledge of the Supreme Spirit has no use for the Ved. That means that the one who knows God transcends HE knows all that is to be known.”


    What is tri badh: Sikhism

    It is not clear as per sikh philosophy it is same as is explained in Vedas. Sikhs even do not know what and how exactly Maya is created.

    2All believers have faith, it is not only part of Hinduism, there is no special definition in Sikhism about Heavan and Hell save for their references as suffering due to turning back towards the creator.

    Heaven and Hell

    It is immaterial. What matters is what we do in the present life. In any case Hindus believe in theory of karma and Sikhs do the same. As you sow so shall you reap. It is the basic edifice of Sikhism and is the backbone of Hinduism so that people practice the righteousness and this is also acclaimed in sikhi.Sikhism also does not reject the idea of heaven and hell. Bani admits the existence of the same , may be in realms. But it is a borrowed concept.


    3Incarnation is not only believed by Hindus but also by ancient Egyptians and others, they were not known as Hindus because of it.so who believe in it, does not automatically become Hindu.

    Sikhs belive in Avtaars as well.i need not quote from bani.

    4Caste System has been rejected as described above
    It was introduced to maintain social order only.Sikhs also believe in caste system.it has been detailed out as above. You are requested to kindly not repeat the things time and again in the same post.

    5Well, it is not advocated by Sikhism, bodies of Guru Arjan Dev and Mata Ganga Ji were rested in water.

    What is the relevance of this point.? Kindly illumine.


    6In Sikhism, Cow is not special pure animal as Hindus do.


    Let it not be so in Sikhism.

    Sikhs have many other rituals which Hindus do not have.In any case these are not significant points relevant to discussion.


    7In Sikhism, concept of purity is totally new, only through Nam Simran purity is obtained, in Hinduism there are many rituals to do purity.
    Gurus themselves declare

    [ I am not quoting the sabad as it was not properly presented]


    Hinduism has almost the same concept of Holiness. Purity of mind is as impressed upon more significantly in Hinduism as well.



    [Guru Nanak has given concept of falling in love and being imbued with His love while living in this world without abiding any order of religious rules which literally are chains in progression. Stress is to win over five primal forces. Concept of Ordnance, His Grace and new concept of Mukti having while being alive differ from any sectarian ideology existed before Guru Nanak; calling Guru panth “off shoot of Hinduism” is a sheer misunderstanding of Gurbani in its totality. Looking at a few similarities and jumping on conclusion that it is not different than Hinduism, is either based on immaturity or under the influence of propagated agenda of those who just want to blend this religion into their own so that new wave of believers should not question their limitations of their faith in pursuit of humanity of high level principles.

    NOTE Sikh 80 ji, Why do you need to be dismayed? Just because of reading comments of some who horribly failed to understand Gurbani in its totality. You have been advocating understanding Gurbani through the interpretation found in Guru Granth sahib Ji itself. Why you feel dismayed? Aad0002 ji has given good reference how and from where all this Hindu thing” originated just to prove that before jumping on any conclusion, or criticizing others who have different faith than Sikhism, one should know what is base of all this. Surprisingly if you put Hinduism( as per Chief Justice' idea quoted by aad ji), to compare to other religions, it seems like a way of life rather than a religion, there are boxes within boxes. How then Sikhism can be called " off shoot" of it? A lot of truth lies in the words of Chief Justice though to some his words may sound strange. In that prospective too, Sikhism stands all alone.
    Same way, all who voilate Sikhs basic principles may call their own sect or cult, surely it cannot be Sikhism as per definition of Sikhism as a religion.

    Reference” Bhai Kahan Singh “ Ham Hindu Nahin “-

    [Right Reply reserved by me as I have not read the said book.]





    I am just quoting two lines:

    As the time passes his aims and means of life are changed. We have to shift the focus of life once again towards immaterialist way of life. For that following two lines in ISHA UPNISHDA are sufficient.

    It means, “All this, whatsoever moves on earth, is to be hidden in the
    Lord (the Self). When thou hast surrendered all this, then thou mayest enjoy.
    Do not covet the wealth of any man!”
     
  16. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    pk70 ji,

    I note that many parts need editing. I cannot do this as my browser is not opening the above post.Kindly proceed ignoring the English and the presentation. You may also make your posts small and to the point.

    In any case, please avoid 'repeats.' Kindly try to see that your posts contain Gurmukhi properly. You would observe that I had to do this in your posts.it is better to post small in bits so that we can discuss without any grief or anguish.


    Regards as usual.
     
  17. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Yes, pooja means worship or service to Lord as we sikhs understand.

    You would understand the things if you put something from bani as you are incapicitated on account of lack of appreciation of Punjabi and Hindi or Urdu for that matter.[No offence meant and my apologies]

    What is wrong with Pooja?

    It is same as we mean service to Lord.
    It can be by recitation of Keertan /Aarti.[as any Hindu would say or state]
    It is same as sikhs.
    When I am doing Nitnem or Paath I shall say that I am doing 'Paath' instead of saying that I am doing pooja.it is only semantically different.

    The essence is the same.


    If Pooja is a ritual, Nitnem and simran shall also qualify for the same with minor adjustments here and there.

    Kindly post if you are sure else it shall become very difficult for me to attend and you may feel ignored.

    Regards
     
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  18. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Quoted from the above post as I could not carry out the editing.

    Guru's word...or bani...Or ...Bani Nirankaar hey.....is all but Vedas then where is the difference in Sikhism.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
    Bani is Nirankaar and I take that above 'tuk' is also word of God as it cannot be otherwise.

    And


    God's word [bani]Leads one to acquire the knowledge of vedas.


    The knowedge of Vedas has been kept supreme by Guru Nanak.


    Regards

    Note :
    This is not meant to hurt anyone. If someone feels uncomfortable, it may kindly be known and I shall stop and halt without adding a word. The idea is to find out as to what is the essential difference between the two faiths and may be in the process we may conceptualize sikhism in manner that may be fruitful to all of us. I am not likely to become a Hindu, yes, I have postponed being an Amritdhari for the time being.

     
  19. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Sikh80 ji

    You are angry about something and striking out in a most personal way and that is unfortunate. It should be very clear from my comments on "pooja" that they were incidental to the big picture.
     
  20. Sikh80

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    Respected aad ji,

    I sincerely feel sorry if I seemed the way you have stated. Kindly let the words that are the culprits be taken as withdrawn as I do not know exactly that has caused anguish. My apologies again. I am a sikh and hence Pooja is just the same as Paath to me.

    I Seek your forgiveness again.
     
  21. pk70

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    I am trying to answer you point wise without raising any question on Sikhism. I have the view that in Sikhism basics are not clear to many Learned Sikhs. How can an ordinary person with ordinary intellect be a Sikh in true sense of word.? I understand your concern for the young Sikhs but then we have everything that he blesses us with. Kindly go through the following with open mind. I shall take up the answers and replies once this is suitable absorbed and any points of differences are pointed out for amicable resolution.

    Only, Amrit ceremony introduced by Guru Gobind Singh to turn victims into self defenders, alone stands tall against their imaginative claims; however, there are other basics concepts which are extremely different the way are described by Sikh founder like His Ordinance, His Grace and Mukti.


    Amrit ceremony is a ritual particular to a faith hence I have no comments on this as I do not want to hurt any one and that cannot be the intention
    Sikh 80 Ji,
    How you can pass by this a revolutionary change in History? This very change is progression in Sikhism alone changed the course of History for ever. Either take it as a part of Sikhism or just dump it move the way your mind directs you because I have problem to discuss with an attitude of cut some and keep some.
    How it has been taken by to days Sikhs is not the issue when we discuss the original. What you take it from this ceremony, it is your observation, no body can stop that, if they mind, it is their limited space they live in; however, you cannot ignore it as a ritual at all. So bear in mind, this alone characteristic is not found in any existed sect or faith exactly at the time of Tenth Master.

    . As a first post my reactions are very mild to all the points that you have raised. Needless to mention sikhi can be challenged on the very basis of the standard Ardas. I shall do it after seeig the progress of the thread.
    Ardas is not defined in Guru Granth Sahib, so taking it like Kala afgana ‘s bait and try to trample the whole faith doesn’t prove your intentions is to know further about Sikhism. I do ardas differently, there is no Hukm from Tenth Master that ardaas should be like this; you can pray as you wish but what is wrong with remembering those who lost their lives for conviction?
    You have the right to say that you just do not believe in any thing said in Sikhism, does it prove it any thing. So either stay learner or become critic, two way games not appreciable. Since I feel your questions are not of a learner but a critic who is bent upon proving two different religions as one.
    In any religion, worth the name, all these are the essential ingredients, His order or the divine order and the His grace and the liberation. Each and every religion leads to Mukti and should do so to enable it to be called as Mukti or liberation. The religion that does not tell us clearly as to how to reach HIM is not a religion at all.There is nothing new in that you have stated above.
    Wow, I didn’t feel ever like this, since I took it to mind, I have no problem, after posting thousands of essays or kathas, suddenly your this declaration has surprised me. What is not clear? How to reach to HIM? Systematically Gurbani takes you to walk on the path with sincerity. By merely defining words used in Gurbani is not walking on it. Gurbani in Mool Mantra explicitly explains, which you understood, who is He with little reservation, Guru ji continues describing how even after trying, He remains inexpressible. Guru makes me understand about HIM the creator of all( Japji) What more clarity do you need. Then an effort is done many times to explain His Hukam( Japji), How to be heard is also elaborated in beautiful words. Are you just reading and writing or also into the battle Guru ji asks us to be. If answer is yes, then your this question is disturbing otherwise you are filled with so many doubts, it is impossible to walk on that path because the doubtful mind is not helpful . Surprisingly you quote upnishda with same message of surrender in the end of your post, is it more clear? No, simply believing has not been conceived, and it should be natural.

    The Vedas are stated to be the words of God. Bani admits it at more than one place and in fact, entire Granth sahib is spilled over by these references. Bani has also stated that Vedas were the words uttered by The intangible entity called as God or ‘waheguru’ by whatever name called.
    Gurbani stated clearly that Vedas taught trade, Guru taught knowledge ( M-1, I am quoting it at the end), isn’t it enough that the references are given but are not accepted. , it is said that Veda also sing praises of God, does it mean we should leave our path and search Vedas to enrich our knowledge because those Sikhs who only believed in Gurbani lacked some thing. Vedas are praised only in a context where they have referred to Him, where they advocate other stuff like human sacrifice and extreme ability( Ambedkar Atharv Veda)and trade affair,Are not appreciated; so why only reference is dragging you to that way, it is beyond my understanding.

    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.[p2L8]
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ
    By listening to Naam one gets the benefit of the knowledge of Shastras and Vedas.Thus by Listening to Naam [ which is not known to a Sikh] one gets the reward of the entire wisdom contained in Vedasa. With due regards and respect to the Gurus, I do not disagree with this .But Naam is a vehicle that leads to the holy knowledge and the divinity contained in Vedas.
    Here message is simple, if distorted what can I do, Guru ji says whatever Guru says it is veda, Veda means also knowledge not only those VEDAS, it is said in context of HIM, Raheea smaaee”, here, knowledge about Him is obtained through Guru, you want to think otherwise, it is your choice, never think for a second I am here to pursue you in any direction, you asked me, I am telling,
    that is it. Every thing rests here, so please do not think otherwise about my responses
    ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਵੇਦ
    Guru nanak has time and again claimed that all including Vedas sing of you, the Creator!! So where is the big difference. The Supreme entity has been the same and is the same as has been proclaimed in Vedas that was the origin of the organized format of the divinity.
    Do you think, Guru Nanak should have used some alien language to make you understand it is other Power. Centuries over centuries passed after all those concepts, many of them were buried under other writings since they are not authored by any one or compiled in a way that no body could have corrupted them. Guru came on the stage, after his enlightenment he proceeded to bring people to HIM; he had to use the terminology people already heard about. Most of he picked up from day to day exploitation of the society who locked in the knowledge from common people. If it was there already, it was dead. How much Vedas were available to every one?
    In so dar- Raag Aasaa , Guru Nanak dev ji admits that all sing your praises. Hindus sing through Vedas and Sikhs do praises through Nitnem and simran.The methodology or remembering HIM is different. This difference is bound to be there on account of time and the practices adopted and followed over different period of times. It does not mean at all that Sikhs have discarded these Hly and the most ancient Books or the scriptures. At no place Gurus have stated against the Vedas that is stated to be the store house of knowledge including Naam and its significance.
    They are also house of many things like atharva Vedas, read a book by Swami Ram teerath Ji Dandi Sanyaasi, he read them, he wrote about them, he could say better than you or me who quote from here or there, the name is” Aad Sree Guru Granth Sahib” published by SGPC Amritsar
    Yes, the Almighty is one and is supremus has been also stated so in Vedas as well as is also admitted in bani. In Sri-Rag Guru Nanak ji states as follows. He states that everything stated in his philosophy in the following ‘sabad’is also proclaimed in Vedas. Hence Sikhism is all but an adopted faith from Vedas and Upnishdas and rest is decorative part and minor adjustments.
    In Sikhism there is no decoration, Guru Nanak says he was asked by the Creator to sing His praise and teach others to do so, please see Maajh Kee Vaar Pouri 27, that was personal experience expressed, if still you do not believe him but think all is taken from Vedas, good luck. Daya Nand would have analyzed every borrowed thing as you say and wrote there about him, instead he was furious because all the system of Hinduism was attacked by Guru Nanak( Satyaarth)
    ਬੇਦੁਪੁਕਾਰੇਵਾਚੀਐਬਾਣੀਬ੍ਰਹਮਬਿਆਸੁ
    The
    Vedas proclaim, and the words of Vyaasa tell us,
    ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਾਧਿਕਾ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਗੁਣਤਾਸੁ
    that the silent sages, the servants of the Lord, and those who practice a life of spiritual discipline are attuned to the Naam, the Treasure of Excellence.

    Let me give you real interpretation of this Guru Vaak to understand it
    Here it isਬਿਆਸ ਰਿਸ਼ੀ (ਤਾਂ ਮੁੜਮੁੜ) ਵੇਦ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਉੱਚੀ ਉਚਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਪਰ ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪੜ੍ਹਨੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈਅਸਲੀ ਮੁਨੀ ਲੋਕ ਸੇਵਕ ਤੇ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਉਹੀਹਨ ਜੋ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੇ ਖ਼ਜ਼ਾਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨਜੇਹੜੇ ਬੰਦੇ ਸਦਾਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਨਾਮ-ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਜੀਵਨ-ਬਾਜ਼ੀ) ਜਿੱਤਕੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨਮੈਂ ਭੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਕੁਰਬਾਨ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ
    Admittedly the entire philosophy is contained in Vedas. Bani has not rejected it. It has reinforced that the route to the Lord is through the Naam. What is the Naam? Sikhs have their doubts. Vedas are clear about this. If Bani is the word of God for Sikhs the Vedas are the word of God for almost all. It is admitted so in bani. If further indulgence is required I shall do that for the benefit of the discussion.
    You are jumping on conclusion without even searching for a right interpretation.
    I call it lies based on imaginative sources.
    The society where Guru Nanak grew up in, had major two faiths, Islam and Hinduism though there were other sectarian ideology like Yog matt, Janism etc. Guru Nanak as enlightened one, had to address them in their own language and terminology to lead the seekers to the Ultimate Truth. Who were scared of this new religion of Guru Nanak, used same terminology as a base to blend this new religion.. Vashanavites and Hindus were those who declared that those terms were already in Vedas etc so Sikhs Gurus are aligned with those, therefore it is a kind of Hinduism and Vashanavism . Surprisingly all these terms are given new meaning in SGGS stressing only on His Nam and love for Him obtainable only through Guru but still it depends on His grace.

    All religions state that HIS grace is a must.
    Please enlighten me on this, it should be as dominating as it is in Gurbani, besides the trade is accepted right in Veda scriptures, how even you can compare Gurbani in that context?.
    This is something implied. Sikhs admit it in explicit manner.
    There are statements in them, people wasted their lives over centuries on those statements” do this and get this, you are talking like a person who has seen pre veda period.
    His Naam and Grace are also the essence of the Hinduism that I am talking of. I shall put forward the same as and when required.
    YES IT IS REQUIRED IN CONTEXT WHERE TRADE IS NOT IN FRON SEAT.
    This needs a thorough thesis to negate claims based on some similarities as they are there in every faith, however, lets take some examples from Guru Granth (Guru Granth Sahib - The History, Arrangements and Text) Sahib against Hinduism.
    Caste.System: In Hinduism, it is a base, in Balmiki Ramayin( Uttar Kand A 76)Ram Chandra is shown killing a person belonging to low class just because he was doing bhagati, on his beheading, Devtas shower flowers. That is the bottom line, if the revered Devta Ram Chand does such heinous crime for Caste System, imagine how much it is deep into the psyche of the followers, contrary to it, Sikh Guru makes his followers to drink from one pot. Strong rejection of Caste System , more ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ਫਕੜ ਜਾਤੀ ਫਕੜੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਇਕਾ ਛਾਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਹਾਏ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਪਰੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਪਤਿ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਾਏ
    Salok mehlā 1. Fakaṛ jāṯī fakaṛ nā*o. Sabẖnā jī*ā ikā cẖẖā*o. Āphu jė ko bẖalā kahā*ė. Nānak ṯā par jāpai jā paṯ lėkẖai pā*ė. ||1||
    Slok, First Guru. Perposterous is caste and vain the glory. The Lord alone gives shade to all the beings. Some one may call himself good, but his being good shall be only known when his honour shall be accepted in God's account O Nanak!

    I have not deleted this on account of the fact that your understanding is different from that we have about Ram Chandra. Ram Chandra , a s a generic name tells, was Incarnation of God and bani admits this as well.
    Gurbani says people call them” incarnation of God” please reread quote in this regard, do not distort, if you do not believe in Gurbani, it is fine with me.
    In fact one of the favorite name of the God is Ram in bani.
    Gurbani uses almost all prevailed names for HIM, that doesn’t prove it is addressing to them individually as you claim here. That is a concept, when some says” Guru ji my Krishan, Guru Ji is my Brahama, that doesn’t mean, person is addressing those ones. Why so many names are used for Him, think about it.
    Kindly do not distort the things for the sake of discussion. Bani of Bhagats contain many reference of Ram. Also state that you are sure of. Your reference, allusion and hence the conclusions are simply lop-sided and heavily tilted to win over the discussion and to mislead the readers.
    May be it is your intention to win over; it is not mine for sure ever. I share, I disagree, if some one has intention to win, it is his or her problem. Nothing is distorted, above example exist in Ramayen, read it and find out why a so called god beheaded a poor” shoodr”?
    What is caste system.??? Interpreters usually endeavor to hit upon something novel. But truth is, of course, truth. It is neither ever new, nor does it ever grow old. Fresh issues that find a place in newspaper columns are but temporal events that emerge one day and disappear on the next. It is that has happened with caste system. Caste system was there for reasons when it had its origin and when it came into being. It was based on the concept of economics that is division of labor. Gurus had not liked caste system and had discarded it for reasons and there is not much space for discussion. We take policy decisions over a period of time these decisions are not found worthy of being good to the society and at one point or another these gets diluted with passage of time and new decisions have to be taken after having a re look at the situations and the social disparities.
    As Bhai Kahan Singh tries to prove the difference of the two, caste system comes first in Hinduism. Contrary to it Sikhism has a characteristic, a wondrous thing to be found in 500 hundred years ago. Accept it as a quality or just say you like it for economics reasons. I wonder why other societies survived without it( Caste system) and did better than this society inflicted with it.
    Do you not agree that with passage of just 400 years castes have not appeared in /amongst Sikhs? Surely, these have and even the basis of marriages are based on castes. I shall not be in this discussion for the time being. Do you then mean that at some point Sikhism shall also have to be discarded? No, it is not the basic Sikh philosophy, if any, that shall have to be discarded but SGPC should do the needful to keep Sikhism intact. So whatever, the Gurus saw they tried to rectify it only so that the social order is/was not disturbed. That being so the basic edifice was never challenged. Yes, some flaws were pointed out for carrying out the improvement.
    It has nothing to do with the pious ideology Guru ji passed on. What people do, on that, ideology cannot be blamed. You really do not sound to accept it. So it be.
    In fcat , Bani addresses Ram as God.
    ਰਘੁਬੰਸਿ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਦਸਰਥ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਬੰਛਹਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੰ
    He is certified, like the handsome Ram Chander in the house of Dasrath of the Raghwa dynasty. Even the silent sages seek His Sanctuary.
    [page1401/l19]

    Who is Certified?kindly look into this yourself and you shall get the answer
    It is a comparison, please don’t take it otherwise for God’s Sake, do not drag it to where it doesn’t belong. Read Dr Sahib Singh, Manmohan Singh or Gurbachan Singh Talib you will be surprised
    2AVTAR. In Hinduism, God incarnates individually, Gurbani rejects it by calling them kings who were called as God incarnation
    ਜੁਗਹ ਜੁਗਹ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੀਏ ਗਾਵਹਿਕਰਿਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ { YOU SEE HERE.IN RED. PEOPLE SING THEIR PRAISES AS GOD INCARNATION, IT IS NOT GURBANI SAYS SO.}
    Jugah jugah kė rājė kī*ė gāvahi kar avṯārī. Ŧin bẖī anṯ na pā*i*ā ṯā kā ki*ā kar ākẖ vīcẖārī. ||7||
    In every age the Lord creates the Kings who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits. What shall I then say and reflect upon?
    ਦਸ ਅਉਤਾਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਵਰਤੇ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਲਾਇ ਥਕੇ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ
    Ḏas a*uṯār rājė ho*ė varṯė mahāḏėv a*uḏẖūṯā. Ŧinĥ bẖī anṯ na pā*i*o ṯėrā lā*ė thakė bibẖūṯā. ||3||
    There have been ten incarnations, Kings and forsakers like Shiva. They too found not thine limit, though some grew weary of smearing their body with ashes.

    Avtaars are the incarnations of God. Sikhism rejects the idea of it.
    Dear Sir, Sikhism admit its Gurus as Avtaars.

    Does it mean Gurbani is wrong and these guys are right, if some are lost in metaphors, you will blame Gurbani, I referred Gurbani not certain sectarian views.

    Fast
    Fasts are considered pious in Hinduism, Sikhism rejects them outright.
    ਅੰਨੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਥੀਜੈ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੀਜੈ
    Ann na kẖāhi ḏėhī ḏukẖ ḏījai. Bin gur gi*ān ṯaripaṯ nahī thījai. Manmukẖ janmai janam marījai. ||6||
    Some one takes, not food, and tortures his body. Without the Guru's wisdom he becomes not content. Such a perverse person is born only to die and be born again.
    Fasts are the practices that are performed for physical cleaning and many Sikhs do practice it if not as a religious practice but to keep them physically fit. In any case it is faith only and not a matter of religion. Even if it is practiced by some it does not change the basic philosophy underlying the Hinduism.
    Again I quoted Gurbani and you are quoting some people who are not even under my consideration; we are discussing originals.

    Tithi Vaar ( good or bad omen)

    Hindus are grounded in initial pleasing of the demi gods they believe in before starting anything, according to Gurbani all these are chains of imaginative fears, Sikhs are advised to just thank HIM, do prayer to Him, that is it.
    ਸਗੁਨ ਅਪਸਗੁਨ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਲਗਹਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਆਵਈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਭਾਵੈ
    Sagun apasgun ṯis ka*o lageh jis cẖīṯ na āvai. Ŧis jam nėṛ na āvī jo har parabẖ bẖāvai. ||2||
    Good omens and bad omens befall him who remembers not the Lord. Death's courier draws not near him who is pleasing to the Lord God.

    Yes, it is true for Sikhs as well. What is the meaning of this line that you have quoted? It is irrelevant as death strikes all and does not know or discriminates between the Sikhs or Hindus.All die the same death.
    Sikh80 ji, here death is not end of life , here it is indication of spiritual death.
    You know Gurmukhi, you know English then why this slippery journey?

    Pilgrimage
    Many faiths give pilgrimage extreme importance, in Hinduism it is vital to wash sins, Gurbani rejects it
    ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਸਭਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਫੈਲੁ ਲੋਕ ਪਚਾਰੈ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਹੂਣੇ ਚਲਸਹਿ ਰੋਇ
    Ŧirath nā*ė na uṯras mail.Karam ḏẖaram sabẖ ha*umai fail.Lok pacẖārai gaṯ
    nahī ho*ė.Nām bihūṇė cẖalsahi ro*ė. ||2||
    Bathing at shrines, the filth departs not.The rituals and religious rites are all the ostentations of self-conceit.Pleasing the people, one is emancipated not.Without the Lord's Name, the screen is shattered not.
    ਮਹਲਾ ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ਤੀਰਥੁਪੂਰਾਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਜੋਅਨਦਿਨੁਹਰਿਹਰਿਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਏਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ

    Mehlā 4.Jis ḏai anḏar sacẖ hai so sacẖā nām mukẖ sacẖ alā*ė.Oh har mārag āp cẖalḏā hornā no har mārag pā*ė.Jė agai ṯirath ho*ė ṯā mal lahai cẖẖapaṛ nāṯai sagvī mal lā*ė.Ŧirath pūrā saṯgurū jo an*ḏin har har nām ḏẖi*ā*ė.Oh āp cẖẖutā kutamb si*o ḏė har har nām sabẖ sarisat cẖẖadā*ė.Jan Nānak ṯis balihārṇai jo āp japai avrā nām japā*ė. ||2||
    Fourth Guru.He, within whom is the truth obtains the True Name and with his mouth utters the truth.He himself walks in God's way and puts others on God's path.If there be a pure water tank in front then the filth is washed off. By bathing in a pond, still more filth attaches to the man.The perfect place of pilgrimage is the True Guru who night and day meditates on the Name of Lord God.He is saved himself along with his family and by giving the Name of the Lord Master saves the whole world.Servant Nanak is a sacrifice unto him, who himself repeats God's Name and causes others to utter the Name.

    Hindus do believe in naam as has been proclaimed by Vedas and admitted by bani.The following is quoted from introduction to geeta.
    “The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta]

    When a man is surrounded by the ocean on all sides, he has no use for a pond. Just so a Brahmin who has gained knowledge of the Supreme Spirit has no use for the Ved. That means that the one who knows God transcends HE knows all that is to be known.”
    WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN CONTEXT OF PILGRIMAGE?DO NOT BOUNCE AROUND.
    Tantar Mantar
    A part of Hinduism including other sectarian boxes, Sikhism considers it hypocrisy.
    ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਜਾਣਾ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਤੇ ਸੂਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ
    Ŧanṯ manṯ pakẖand na jāṇā rām riḏai man māni*ā.Anjan nām ṯisai ṯė sūjẖai gur sabḏī sacẖ jāni*ā. ||4||
    Enchantment, witchcraft and hypocrisy I know not, placing the Lord within my heart, my, my soul is pleased.The Name-salve is known from him alone, who by
    Guru's instruction realises the True Lord.
    Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha ji states that there are seven basics of Hinduism
    1 To accept Vedas as Truth
    2. To keep faith and to accept results of virtues and misdeeds are Heaven and Hell
    3 Believing in incarnation and seek liberation
    4 To believe Caste system as a base of the Hinduism
    5 Burn the dead
    6. Protect Cow
    7 Have faith in purity and impurity ( as contagious
    Now lets see Sikhism in this prospective



    1.The base of Sikhism is not Vedas, actually Vedas preach trade. For a Sikh only Gurbani is trueਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ੨੪
    Without the True Guru, all other word is false. Without the True Guru every other word is false. All other sermons are but false. False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.
    Yes, Hindus also believe that without Lord everything is False.
    I quoted what Guru says about other scriptures, where as Hindus believe that base is Veda, Guru ji says, only Gurbani is true. Here my intention is just to see the difference, your comment I couldn’t understand in this context.
    “The Ved only illumine the three properties of nature; they know nothing of what is beyond them. Liberate oneself from the conflicts of joy and sorrow, concentrate on the one changeless reality, and desire neither the unobtained nor the obtained; so that he may devote himself single mindedly to the indwelling Self.[c-2/v45-geeta]
    2All believers have faith, it is not only part of Hinduism, there is no special definition in Sikhism about Heavan and Hell save for their references as suffering due to turning back towards the creator.
    It is immaterial. What matters is what we do in the present life. In any case Hindus believe in theory of karma and Sikhs do the same. As you sow so shall you reap. It is the basic edifice of Sikhism and is the backbone of Hinduism so that people practice the righteousness and this is also acclaimed in sikhi.
    In Hindu thought it cannot be changed but Gurbani states otherwise, if His refuge is taken He can change, that is basic difference.( See quote at the end)
    3Incarnation is not only believed by Hindus but also by ancient Egyptians and others, they were not known as Hindus because of it.so who believe in it, does not automatically become Hindu.
    Sikhs belive in Avtaars as well.i need not quote from bani.
    Why you are quoting people, if they ignore Gurbani, does it mean, Gurbani has no significance? As Guru says, very rare will follow the truth, I believe that, going stray is common place so why to question Gurbani on the basis of some people.
    5Well, it is not advocated by Sikhism, bodies of Guru Arjan Dev and Mata Ganga Ji were rested in water.
    What is the relevance of this point.? Kindly illumine.
    It means if bodies of Guru Ji and Mata Ganga were rested in water, that proves Sikhs do not have Taboo about it. Relevance is comparison of both we have been discussing.
    6In Sikhism, Cow is not special pure animal as Hindus do.
    Let it not be so. Sikhs have many other rituals which Hindus do not have.in any case these are not significant points relevant to discussion.
    It is comparison, why you are keep saying it is relevant? Aren’t we comparing?
    7In Sikhism, concept of purity is totally new, only through
    Nam Simran purity is obtained, in Hinduism there are many rituals to do purity.
    Gurus themselves declare
    Hinduism has almost the same concept of Holiness. Purity of mind is as impressed upon more significantly in Hinduism as well.
    COME ON PLEASE, all kinds of rituals are rejected in Gurbani, Hindu nostalgic people’s behavior cannot be made base to judge Sikhism. You are way out of reason. I would prefer to end this discussion. What you have been doing, rejecting Gurbani and inserting some so called Sikh’s practices as a religion, that proves, you are more interested what some people do in real life than what Gurbani says. In Harminder Sahib women were stopped from doing service, is it advocated by Gurbani? No, We cannot insert such happening as a religion principle.
    God's word [bani]Leads one to acquire the knowledge of vedas.
    That is distortion, meaning has been given above. Gurbani does not say it lead you to knowledge of Vedas; if it were true why would Guru Nanak declare they are source of trade( SEE Below Guru Ji’s own word)
    That alone is sufficient for me to reject any similarities and other wisdom. I shared how I am grounded with Gurbani inspiration, no doubt disturbs me, no knowledge attractants me, no similarities bother me. How doyou think and decide I leave on you, I am not here to convince, please do not base your views on distortion as you have done above. Here is Guru ji directly addressing VEDAS’ Wisdom in context of Guru Gyaan
    ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ .ਬੇਦੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਉਤਮ ਮਧਿਮ ਜਾਤੀਂ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਵੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਖੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤੀ .ਸੁਰਤੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਧਿਆਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਾਜਿ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਖੈ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਤਾਂ ਕੋ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ
    Salok mehlā 2.Kathā kahāṇī bėḏīʼn āṇī pāp punn bīcẖār.Ḏė ḏė laiṇā lai lai ḏėṇā narak surag avṯār.Uṯam maḏẖim jāṯīʼn jinsī bẖaram bẖavai
    sansār. Amriṯ baṇī ṯaṯ vakẖāṇī gi*ān ḏẖi*ān vicẖ ā*ī. Gurmukẖ ākẖī gurmukẖ jāṯī surṯīʼn karam ḏẖi*ā*ī. Hukam sāj hukmai vicẖ rakẖai hukmai anḏar vėkẖai. Nānak agahu ha*umai ṯutai ṯāʼn ko likī*ai lėkẖai. ||1||
    Slok 2nd Guru. The Vedas have brought legends and tales and they expound vice and virtue. What men give as gratis they receive and what they receive as gratis they give. According to their deeds, they are born in hell or heaven. Reading them the world wanders in the doubt of high and low castes and classes. The ambrosial Gurbani speaks of the Real Thing and has been revealed unto the Guru in the state of Divine Knowledge and meditation. The Guru-wards utter it, the Guru-wards realise it and by God's grace, the divines ponder over it, Creating the world in His will, the Lord keeps it in His will and in His will He beholds it. If before he dies, man's ego is stilled, O Nanak, then becomes he acceptable in God's co
    (ਜੋ) ਤਾਲੀਮ ਵੇਦਾਂਨੇ ਲਿਆਂਦੀ (ਭਾਵ, ਦਿੱਤੀ), (ਉਸ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ) ਵਿਚਾਰ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਪਾਪ ਕੀਹ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਪੁੰਨ ਕੀਹਹੈ, (ਉਸ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਹੱਥੋਂ) ਦੇ ਕੇ ਹੀ (ਮੁੜ) ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਕਿਸੇਤੋਂ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ ਉਹ (ਅਗਲੇ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ) ਮੋੜੀਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਆਪਣੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਨਰਕਵਿਚ ਜਾਂ ਸੁਰਗ ਵਿਚ ਅੱਪੜੀਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਇਸ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਦੁਨੀਆ ਉੱਚੀਆਂ ਨੀਵੀਆਂਜਾਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਿਸਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਹਿਮਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਖ਼ੁਆਰ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। (ਪਰ ਜੋ) ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਉਚਾਰੀਹੈ, (ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਡੂੰਘੇ ਭੇਤ ਨੂੰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ (ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ) ਸੁਰਤਿਆਂ ਨੇਜਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਮ-ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਲ ਭਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਆਨ ਕਰਦੀਹੈ, ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਵਿਚ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੋੜਿਆਂਪਰਗਟ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। (ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੱਸਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਹੁਕਮ (-ਰੂਪ ਸੱਤਿਆ) ਸਾਜਕੇ (ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਆਪਣੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਸੰਭਾਲ ਕਰਦਾਹੈਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਸ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ) ਪਹਿਲਾਂ (ਜੀਵ ਦੀ) ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਰ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈਤਾਂ ਜੀਵ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਵਾਨ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈਨੋਟ: ਇਸ ਸਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਵੇਦਾਂਦੀ ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਦਾ ਨਿਖੇੜਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ
    NOW WHY IS THIS REJECTION? Due to “ Karm theory” and more you try to enforce in Sikhism as a part to claim it has borrowed all from Veda Wisdom, read below, not my words, Guru speaks himself on this issue; you still want to ignore it, do it if you wish so !

    ਮਃ ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਸੁਰਗ ਨਰਕ ਕਾ ਬੀਉ ਜੋ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਉਗਵੈ ਖਾਂਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਸਲਾਹੇ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ਸਚੁ ਬੀਜੈ ਸਚੁ ਉਗਵੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਈਐ ਥਾਉ ਬੇਦੁ ਵਪਾਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਮੀ ਪਲੈ ਹੋਇ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਸੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਲਦਿ ਚਲਿਆ ਕੋਇ
    Mehlā 1. Bėḏ pukārė punn pāp surag narak kā bī*o. Jo bījai so ugvai kẖāʼnḏā jāṇai jī*o. Gi*ān salāhė vadā kar sacẖo sacẖā nā*o. Sacẖ bījai sacẖ ugvai ḏargeh pā*ī*ai thā*o. Bėḏ vapārī gi*ān rās karmī palai ho*ė. Nānak rāsī bāhrā laḏ na cẖali*ā ko*ė. ||2||
    1st Guru. The Vedas proclaim that virtue and vice are the seed of heaven and hell. Whatever man sows that alone grows. The soul realises it, when it eats the fruit of his deeds. Deeming diving knowledge great, whosoever praises it he becomes truthful, uttering the True Name. Sowing truthfulness, truthfulness grows in man and he finds a seat in the Lord's Court. The Veda is but a trader. The soul's capital-stock is only the Lord's comprehension, which is obtained through the Lord's grace. Nanak, without this capital-stock none has ever departed laden with the profit of the Lord's Name.
    ਵੇਦ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਇਹ ਹੈਕਿ (ਜੀਵ ਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ) ਪੁੰਨ-ਕਰਮ (ਉਸ ਦੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ) ਸੁਰਗ (ਮਿਲਣ) ਦਾ ਸਬੱਬ (ਬਣਦਾ)ਹੈ ਤੇ ਪਾਪ (ਜੀਵ ਲਈ) ਨਰਕ (ਵਿਚ ਪੈਣ) ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ; (ਆਪਣੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਏਪੁੰਨ ਜਾਂ ਪਾਪ ਦਾ ਫਲ) ਖਾਣ ਵਾਲਾ (ਹਰੇਕ) ਜੀਵ (ਆਪ ਹੀ) ਜਾਣ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਕੁਝਕੋਈ ਬੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹੀ ਉੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸੋ, ਇਸ ਕਰਮ-ਕਾਂਡ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਥਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ)। (ਪਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਆ)ਗਿਆਨ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਡਾ ਆਖ ਕੇ (ਉਸ ਦੀ) ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈਕਿ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ (ਹਿਰਦੇਵਿਚ) ਬੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਫੁਲਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਆਦਰ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸੋ, ਪਾਪ ਤੇ ਪੁੰਨ ਦੇ ਫਲ ਦੱਸ ਕੇ) ਵੇਦ ਤਾਂ ਵਪਾਰਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ; (ਪਰ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਲਈ ਅਸਲ) ਰਾਸਿ-ਪੂੰਜੀ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦਾ)ਗਿਆਨ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਨਾਲ (ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ) ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ; ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਇਸਗਿਆਨ-ਰੂਪ) ਪੂੰਜੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ
    (ਜਗਤ ਤੋਂ) ਨਫ਼ਾ ਖੱਟ ਕੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦਾਨੋਟ: ਪਿਛਲੇ ਸਲੋਕ ਵਾਂਗ ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਵੇਦ ਦੇ ਦੱਸੇ ਹੋਏ ਕਰਮ-ਕਾਂਡ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇਦਿੱਤੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਦਾ ਆਪੋ ਵਿਚ ਟਾਕਰਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ
    GOOD LUCK GENTLEMAN !!!!
     
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