Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair On Their Bodies

[spnadmin]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Singh ji

Thank you.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Dear Singh ji My piont was that all to many are quick to grow their hair as an outward sign of Sikhism and carrying the five Ks is enough,

You might think its just an outside display, but until you dont live it then its hard to say what it is. When Bhai Lehna ji followed Guru Nanak Dev ji with just point of a finger, not just an outside display. The yearning starts from the inside and then becomes an outside display.

The 5 ks is just the beginning of the journey.

Yet they dont following the hukams laid down by the founder of Sikhism, They love to wear the uniform of the khalsa so every one can see them and have them think that they are dedicated to Sikhism when in reality they are followimg only one Gurus teachings.

While your thinking this, what makes you think they are not thinking the samething. Tony ji thinks he so big walking around with the outside display of equality. Also i was going to mention this before, but forgot. When you say the Amritdhari at the store doesn't greet you properly, just putting this out there, then you should greet him with a Fateh and see what happens. Sometimes people make something out of nothing.

If they are going to wear a uniform and become a soldier then they must obey all hukams. An army is made up of well trained disiplined people, they start with basic training, in Sikhisms case that would be with Guru Nanak jis hukams, only when they have learnt each stage do they progress to the next, and only when they have learnt and can demonstrate what they have learnt are they allowed to put on the full uniform.

True some don't learn the basics and some ignore the basics. Either way people should be progressing on the path of Sikhi.

Far to many put on the uniform first and once on they never bother learning the basics. Any one can read and quote from a book, I am still in basic trianing and would never dare insult Guru jis by wearing the uniform of a Khalsa Sikh untill ive have mastered the basics, which appear to me to be the treating all as equals, if you where to start at the other end of trianing then you are taking the weapons without knowing how to use them, the sword is swung out without any precision, it strikes every one including your own cutting them down before they get a chance, in my case,

Everyone is progressing on the path, but this does not make the Khalsa Panth any lesser. You call Guru Sahib a book and I'll never do it.

Members of the higher ranks frown on me because i dont grow hair they think im inferior yet in doing so they are only showing their own failings, they dont understand the basics concept of all are equal.

To you its just an outside display and for many Sikhs keeping of the hair is beyond this. You are trying to understand this through your eyes, step in there shoes and look at it from there perspective. Keeping of the hair comes from within.

it is whats inside that makes a true Sikh. Without the basics the growing of your Hair is nothing more than a ritual, when hair is grown like this it is merely a worldly item that can not be taken to the next so are the rest of the five Ks, without the basics they are nothing as is the taking of Amrit they are just rituals. the prove is the order in which they are written down.

If you read Gurbani, Guru Sahib is against performing rituals for attaining God so in no way did the Tenth Nanak make Amrit Sanskar a ritual. If he did then he would be going against Guru Nanak Dev ji, which is completely impossible.

Start at the beginning of the Guru Granth Sahib ji and see for yourselve. The Gurujis taught it in that order with the taking of Amrit and the Khalsa coming last for a reason. starting with equality, being humble, serving all, considering yourselve below all others,

In Guru Nanak Dev ji's time Amrit was given to his disciples, but in a different way.

Now it is started at the end first, they put on the uniform and behave like the Generals giving out the orders saying what is right and what is wrong without knowing the real truth. One other thing could you please tell me where in the Granth does it mention body hair as i cant remember ever reading it.

If you wish to make a change then attack the problem from the head. Take on SGPC and Badals clan head to head. What I have a problem with is when people complain and complain and complain and complain, I see this coming from Amritdharis and the others, but no one is stepping up to the plate and doing something about it. Discussing is a great way for new ideas, but no one seems to carry them out. Every Sikh in this world is to blame for the state of Sikhi today. And watch now every Sikh takes a step back looks both ways, and will run away.

 

[tony]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Dear Singh ji
If someone is keeping his kesh intact but not practiseing what is preached in the Guru sahib ji then surely it is no more than an symbol of Sikhism. Tony ji does not think he is big at all,quite small actually, but i think that by showing and treating all as equals is a good start for anybody. I havent even attempted to lesson the khalsa panth merely pionted out that far to many which doesnt even imply a majority, are to willing to wear the uniform and neither did I call Guru Sahib ji a book the statement was a generalisation. you accuse me of saying that the tenth nanak ji made Amrit a ritual when what i said was that if a person takes Amrit without knowing the basics and then thinks thats enough or continues to practise culturalism then it is he who makes it a ritual. As for greeting the amritdhari at my local shop with a fateh I tried and he turned his back to me any more suggestions. Please do not accuse me having no respect for Guru jis or the Khalsa panth, I have the utmost respect for both, believing that it is the ultimate achievment for a Sikh but only after he can demonstrate his knowledge of Sikhism. and May be every Sikh will take a step back and ask themselves are they doing it right and not run away as you suggest. None of my post have been a complaint just pionting out what ive seen and the way ive been treated, not by Sikhism but by panjabi culturalism

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

tony ji

What you are pointing out is not a small matter. The message is glorious and liberating. The medium is clear and pure. Some of the messengers are themselves not aware of the message and deliver it in a small-minded way. People are not perfect. Please forgive anyone of us when we slip and fall.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Dear Singh ji
If someone is keeping his kesh intact but not practiseing what is preached in the Guru sahib ji then surely it is no more than an symbol of Sikhism.

Yes, I agree with you keeping hair but then not accepting anything else of the Guru Sahibs teaching is a ritual.

Tony ji does not think he is big at all,quite small actually, but i think that by showing and treating all as equals is a good start for anybody.

After reading that you said Fateh to him and he turned his back on you then i'm guessing you said it loud enough for him to hear and then Guru Sahib ji turned his back on this Amritdhari. Treating everyone equally regardless if there amritdhari or not is what Guru Sahib taught us, but also Guru Sahib gave the Khalsa Panth the authority to lead. By Khalsa I mean the Khalsa like Bhai Nirmal Singh ji who passed away not too long ago.

And just for fun next time say fateh to him again and see if you get a response. If i was in your position i would say fateh to him everytime I went until the point gets across. And don't stop at a murmuring Fateh make sure you get a loud and clear one with two folded hands.

I havent even attempted to lesson the khalsa panth merely pionted out that far to many which doesnt even imply a majority, are to willing to wear the uniform and neither did I call Guru Sahib ji a book the statement was a generalisation.

I misintrepreted what you said here forgive me. As we were talking about Guru Sahib, I thought you were refering to Guru Sahib as a book. My mistake.

you accuse me of saying that the tenth nanak ji made Amrit a ritual when what i said was that if a person takes Amrit without knowing the basics and then thinks thats enough or continues to practise culturalism then it is he who makes it a ritual.

My mistake forgive me.

None of my post have been a complaint just pionting out what ive seen and the way ive been treated, not by Sikhism but by panjabi culturalism

You took the run away comment out of context, but that's alright. Punjabi culture has its upside but majority of it is about egotisitcal behaviour.

 

[tony]

Manmukh or Gurmukh: Can Mind Serve as Spiritual Authority?

Dear Antonia ji
I was not trying to have a go at Singh ji and dont think that he is wrong in his views at all, His post have never offended me and i most sincerly hope mine have not offended him. My replies are of my own experiences and my wording can sometimes be misinterpretated. I am a simple man and excel more in practical things than in expressing myself verbally. My apologies Singh ji if i have offended you but please rest assured I do not feel offended in any way. btw the man at the shop doesnt really offend me either i look on it as a challenge one day he will crumble and accept me as a Sikh, and when he does it will let me Know that ive progressed further along my path. Good luck Singh ji in all you do and long may we continue to debate, who knows one day we might even be agreeing and fighting the same corner.
Tony

Tony ji

I had not even a clue that you thought I was referring to your conversations with Singh ji. Was addressing a completely different part of the conversation. aad0002

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Everyone all ji

The better part of the day has been a wide digression from the topic of the thread. At one point it was necessary to digress and discuss mind and intellect in order to clarify the question of authority on the subject of keeping hair. But the talk has gone way past that point. So first of all, the discussion should return to Keeping Hair. All the posts about manmukh and gurmukh were moved to a new thread entitled Manmukh or Gurmukh: Can Mind Serve as Spiritual Authority?

Bhagat ji, thank you for stating directly that the Gurus Sahiban were not manumukh. By Bhagat ji: "BTW I presented my definition of Manmukh and cleared up that Gurus were not Manmukh." on the thread http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-youth/24321-manmukh-gurmukh-can-mind-serve-spiritual.html#post96436

We can discuss this at another time.

 

[Archived_Member4]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Dear Sis,

It is a very sensitive subject and it does create an up roar with the Khalsa Sikhs. But to answer your question there is no where written in AGGS about removal of hairs affects your spirituality. I can participate in a civil academic debate on the subject. Guru Gobind Singh added the Bani of his father in to AGGS and have enough time to add another page 1431 on hairs etc if he wanted to make these mandatory.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI

Sir, a great Singh told me to ask this question and I would like specifically your response to the question. Others can answer as well.

If Tenth Nanak didn't mention about hair in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, neither did the Tenth Nanak mention about the Khalsa!!! Is there reasoning behind your statement? And does this make Khalsa non-spiritual?

 

[Astroboy]

Re: sikh girls that do not cut their head hair, but remove all other hair on their bo

No hair should be removed whether man or woman. Talk about bending and twisting Hukams. It's too much waking up 2 in the morning for amrit vaylaa, so I guess it's superflous for me to wake up this early. Sikhs are not flower gardens they are the lotus flower.

Page 1180, Line 9
ਚੰਦ ਦੇਖਿ ਬਿਗਸਹਿ ਕਉਲਾਰ ॥
चंद देखि बिगसहि कउलार ॥
Cẖanḏ ḏekẖ bigsahi ka▫ulār.
Seeing the moon, the lotus blossoms.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

 

[Astroboy]

Re: sikh girls that do not cut their head hair, but remove all other hair on their bo

The rehit was written by men... does that tell you something?
And the rehit was NOT written by the Gurus. Does that also not say something?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib is above these matters. It deals with more important things than talking about hair.

See what the Guru says about Hair on the head,

Page 149, Line 16
ਭੇਡਾ ਵਾਗੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇਨਿ ਭਰੀਅਨਿ ਹਥ ਸੁਆਹੀ ॥
भेडा वागी सिरु खोहाइनि भरीअनि हथ सुआही ॥
Bẖedā vāgī sir kẖohā▫in bẖarī▫an hath su▫āhī.
Their hands are smeared with ashes,
and the hair on their heads is plucked out; they look like sheared sheep!
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

I was watching this documentary and they said how Buddhists believe that even God can be a source of unhealthy attachment. This accounts for their atheistic belief. So does SGGS stand a chance?...

Bhagat Singh Ji,

Bring out your documentary and compare to see, if it stands a chance with this shabad
(view whole shabad to understand more clearly):

Page 265, Line 14
ਜੈਨ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਜਮ ਅਤਿ ਸਾਧਨ ॥
जैन मारग संजम अति साधन ॥
Jain mārag sanjam aṯ sāḏẖan.
you may adopt the self-mortifying ways of the Jains and great spiritual disciplines;
Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

 

[tony]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Dear namjap ji
The quote you supplied is referring to those who remove hair as a ritual, as is all referrences of hair removal in the Granth Sahib ji, other referrences like worship the lord with every hair on my body is taken out of context, it could quite easily have said with every inch of my body, who knows Guru jis could have been very hairy like alot of men and couldnt see much of their skin in which case it then would make sense to say hair, It merely means that they worship God with every bit of their body, it doesnt state any where that shaving is forbiden or is a sin, only that the ritualistic removal of hair will not bring you closer to God nor will it cleanse you of your sins, The Granth Sahib ji clearly states that the only way to achieve enlightenment is by having Gods name in your mind and heart at all times, If you think logically when the hukam was made the Sikhs where at war with the muslim rulers. as the khalsa had no uniform and both sides dressed pretty much the same it would have been to easy to have been infiltrated, it would have been easy to put a turban on and claim you where a Sikh, but the growing of a beard takes much longer and as such would make it much harder to be infiltrated and also easier to reckonise a Fellow sikh in battle. those who grow their hair thinking it brings them closer to God or that it makes them better than other sikhs who dont have hair are no different to those who shave for the same reason, Its the thoughts you fill your body and mind with that count in gods eyes. Im sure Guru Gobing Singh ji didnt want the ladies to start growing beards. If you could give me a link to the hukam that says this i would be most grateful
Tony

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: sikh girls that do not cut their head hair, but remove all other hair on their bo

See what the Guru says about Hair on the head,

Page 149, Line 16
ਭੇਡਾ ਵਾਗੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇਨਿ ਭਰੀਅਨਿ ਹਥ ਸੁਆਹੀ ॥
भेडा वागी सिरु खोहाइनि भरीअनि हथ सुआही ॥
Bẖedā vāgī sir kẖohā▫in bẖarī▫an hath su▫āhī.
Their hands are smeared with ashes,
and the hair on their heads is plucked out; they look like sheared sheep!
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

The Language/vocabulary used shows quite clearly what Guru Ji thinks of such....
Just call anyone a BHED - especially someone who believes he is very superior "inside"...and see how he reacts... LIKE A "BHED"..he allows the barber to twist and turn hsi head.not at all comlimentary !!!!
and..they look like sheep ..may also mean..the demeaning manner in which the person visiting the barber has to endure the "shear" treatment the barber gives out..just like the hapless sheep feels in the hands of the shearer !! Compare this to....the disgust sikhs and others feel when the HEAD/DASTAAR is even TOUCHED by another....!!!
SIKHS have fought against such behaviour in airports since 9/11..could it be they dont want to be "BHEDS" letting the customs/immigration oficer PAW their Heads/Dastaars !!

VOCABULARY....is everything....to get at the deeper meaning...images of BHEDs getting sheared...No such vocabulary is used in mentioning of long flowing beautiful hair...KESHVA !! The Image shown is entirely different...

 

[tony]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

With respect Gyani ji but I beg to differ on the reference here, it is refering to those who pulled their hair out and not those who have their heads shaved.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Sir, a great Singh told me to ask this question and I would like specifically your response to the question. Others can answer as well.

If Tenth Nanak didn't mention about hair in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, neither did the Tenth Nanak mention about the Khalsa!!! Is there reasoning behind your statement? And does this make Khalsa non-spiritual?

Dear Sir,

10th Master ordered that after his death the Guru for ever will be Sabd Guru (AGGS). The individual who started the thread asked the question about the reference of hair in AGGS. So I responded to it. Your response shows its sensitivity and I have no desire to go in to this sensitive and decisive argument.

Please I refer to my post Argument posted last night as by arguing we can get no where so this thread fom my side is closed as said by Guru Nanak;

ਵਾਦਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਲਾ ॥ਮਨੁ ਦੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਹੇਲਾ ॥

vāḏ ahaʼnkār nāhī parabẖ mėlā. Man ḏė pāvahi nām suhėlā. Ḏūjai bẖā¬ė agi¬ān ḏuhėlā.

Union with God is not obtained by arguments and egotism. But by dedicating the mind to Guru one obtains Naam and peace. In the love of duality and ignorance, you shall suffer.
-----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 226-8

Regards.

Virinder

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

With respect Gyani ji but I beg to differ on the reference here, it is refering to those who pulled their hair out and not those who have their heads shaved.

Tony Ji.

whats the difference ? End result is the same...they look like SHEEP..freshly sheared.
are we splitting "hairs" here..he he. No offense.
Have you noticed how the "hair" subject raises the Heckles (hair) of all and sundry ?? Even those who dont have any !!he he
This must be one of the most..if not THE MOST sensitive subject among sikhs - apart from the meat-vege debate...

 

[tony]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Gyani ji it is not splitting hairs their hair removal was a ritual mine and many others is not.your right it does evoke alot more emotion than id expected.

 

[Astroboy]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

I'm sure Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't want the ladies to start growing beards. If you could give me a link to the hukam that says this i would be most grateful

Tony

Ladies don't have beards, so they don't have to shave. If any company sells razor blades which have instructions - ideal for lady beards, they would go bankrupt in no time.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Tony Ji.

whats the difference ? End result is the same...they look like SHEEP..freshly sheared.
are we splitting "hairs" here..he he. No offense.
Have you noticed how the "hair" subject raises the Heckles (hair) of all and sundry ?? Even those who dont have any !!he he
This must be one of the most..if not THE MOST sensitive subject among sikhs - apart from the meat-vege debate...

Gyani ji

That is my impressions as well. Hair and meat are at the top of the list, followed I think by finding a mate.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Re: Sikh Girls Who Do Not Cut Their Head Hair, But Remove All Other Hair on Their Bod

Dear Members,

IMHO institutionalizing a religion or setting up own rules through Hukamnamas or Fatwas is to "CONTROL".
Each human is free to find his answers by looking with in.

Virinder