Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Serious Sikh Issue !

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Archived_Member16, Jan 8, 2008.

  1. Archived_Member16

    Archived_Member16
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    3,761
    India Gandhi's assassins declared martyrs at Akal Takht

    Jagmohan Singh - Hoshiarpur - Daily Pioneer

    January 7, 2008

    Satwant Singh and Kehar, the assassins of former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi were declared martyrs at Akal Takht (highest Sikh Temporal Seat here on Sunday.

    On Sunday morning a special religious function was organised at Akal Takht which was attended and headed by the Jatehdar Akal Takht, Gyani Joginder Singh Vedanti.

    Vedanti during the function declared Satwant Singh and Kehar Singh as martyrs of Sikh Panth as they had assassinated Indira Gandhi.

    Vedanti also justified the assassination of Indira Gandhi by Satwant Singh and Kehar Singh during the religious function here on Sunday.

    Satwant Singh and Kehar were hanged to death on January 6 for killing the former Prime Minister Indra Gandhi at New Delhi.

    Both had killed the late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi for sending the Indian Army to the Golden Temple to carry out operation Blue Star in 1984.


    *****************************************************************
    Congress, BJP decry SGPC glorification of Indira killers

    TIMES OF INDIA
    8 Jan 2008[​IMG],[​IMG]TNN
    [​IMG]

    NEW DELHI: Both Congress and BJP on Monday criticized the "glorification" of Indira Gandhi's assassins by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) as "martyrs to the cause of the Sikh nation," while a lone Punjab government official, the adviser to chief minister Parkash Singh Badal, tried damage control.

    "Eulogising the assassins of a prime minister is disturbing, dangerous and divisive," Congress spokesperson Jayanthi Natarajan said. She termed the SGPC statement as "totally violative of the Constitution, bordering on treason." Her BJP counterpart Rajiv Pratap Rudi said the SGPC move was "completely unacceptable."

    Denouncing the Sikh religious body's statement, Rudi said, "We have learnt that SGPC has commemorated the assassins of Indira Gandhi. We condemn this — it's completely unacceptable to us."

    Natarajan said that coming from a statutory body like SGPC, the statement was shocking. She pointed out that the SGPC action not just condoned Indira's killers but also "called upon the people to take to violence and terror."

    In Chandigarh, Daljeet Singh Cheema, adviser to Punjab CM Parkash Singh Badal, struck a cautious posture, saying, "What the SGPC has said is a religious affair of the body and the state government doesn't interfere with its functioning." At the same time, Cheema took care to add that his statement must not be construed as approval of Indira's killers.

    The strong Congress reaction was understandable as the SGPC act gave the party an opportunity to revive its nationalist plank and recall the sacrifice of one of its tallest leaders to the anti-terror cause much before jihadi terrorism cast its shadow on the subcontinent.

    At a time when the party is under attack from its opponents for being "soft on terror," the controversy helped it evoke Indira's death "defending the nationalist cause."

    But even as the Akali Dal-led Punjab government responded charily, various Sikh organisations sought announcement of rehabilitation and financial succour to the families of Indira's assassins.

    These bodies have also demanded raising a memorial to ‘Operation Bluestar', following which the former PM was shot dead by her bodyguards, Satwant Singh and Beant Singh.

    Speaking to TOI, chief of hardline Damdami Taksal, Harnam Singh Khalsa, said, "These people are not killers but martyrs of the Sikh nation - those who gave a fitting reply to the powers that dared attack Sikhism's sanctum sanctorum. They will always be revered by the Sikhs."

    Khalsa asked the Centre to earmark funds for all those who had suffered during the decade-long "agitation" in Punjab. Echoing his views, another office-bearer of Dal Khalsa said, "Satwant, Beant and Kehar had taken revenge for the desecration of Golden Temple and Sikhs have been honouring their martyrdom." He said the girl who was engaged to Satwant Singh, married his photograph after he was hanged.

    Meanwhile, the general house of SGPC, Sikh's single largest representative body, has resolved to raise a memorial to 'Operation Bluestar'.



     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Sects Working Bibliography of Serious Scholarship on Sects within Sikhism History of Sikhism Sep 22, 2009
    Arts/Society L-FRESH The LION: "Australia doesn't take racism seriously enough" Language, Arts & Culture May 25, 2014
    Serious challenges to religious freedom remain: Kerry Interfaith Dialogues May 22, 2013
    General Need Of Serious Help - I Want to Die Hard Talk Nov 13, 2012
    Do We take our Rehat Maryada that Seriously? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Nov 6, 2010

  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Soul_jyot ji,

    Since you posted this there have been 0 comments and 8 views. Have to confess that I have been very reluctant to respond even now.

    I know what I think. And my reaction is very clear. And at the same time do not want to be counted among those who would deny the sacrifices of a Sikh martyr.

    But assassination? Is that sometimes right and sometimes wrong? Do not all assassins believe they are morally justified in their decision-- even those who assassinate one whom we despise? How do the supporters of the assassin hold the high ground in a political crisis ever again? And did the "assassins of Indira Gandhi" actually commit the crime?

    Pardon any offense on my part.
     
  4. singh is king

    singh is king Australia
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    49
    indra deserved that. salute to shaheed kehar singh and satwant singh.
     
  5. stupidjassi

    stupidjassi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    4
    good job, should done before!


     
  6. clarkejoey

    clarkejoey
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    2
    Will they also declare as martyrs all the people who suffered and died as a result of the riots ignited by these martyrs?
     
  7. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    i don't think it's fair to blame the riots in delhi on indira's killers. the riots were instigated, planned, and encouraged by police and government officials.
     
  8. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    historically, every person who has attacked Harimandir Sahib has died an untimely death. indira was no exception. after bluestar, one could easily assume that she was a threat to the sikh nation (i believe she was a threat to the entire population of india) and thus it was justified to kill her to save further lives.

    personally, i'm happy to see the shaheedi status, i think it was a long time coming. unfortunately, i think it only happened now to gain political favour for SAD.
     
  9. stupidjassi

    stupidjassi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    4
    yeah agree
     
  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Jasleen ji


     
  11. Lionchild

    Lionchild
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    341
    Likes Received:
    9
    i don't think it's fair to blame the riots in delhi on indira's killers. the riots were instigated, planned, and encouraged by police and government officials.

    well it sure didn't help the situation did it.

    and thus it was justified to kill her to save further lives.
    This is the part that troubles me. And I am sure you know why.


    it sure does, especially from a convert
     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Lionchild ji,

    Good to hear your voice! I don't understand your answer.

    This is a dilemma for me. On the one hand I am sympathetic to, I share, the deep emotions surrounding the assassination of Indira Gandhi. Operation Bluestar was a scandal. I remember it, I was in my 30's when it happened. And I was horrified by the actions of the Indian government. I never forgot it.

    What troubles me is whether an individual can decide to kill for the "greater good" in the way an individual defines the greater good. That is why Hiroshima and Nagasaki trouble me. The invasion of Iraq troubles me. Capital punishment troubles me. And how can one criticize any political act of assasination - truck bombers, body bombers, jihadis, etc.? They all believe they are serving a greater good. That was my point. Perhaps my words have offended you. I can't tell. If they have, then I am very sorry.

    Who has the right to take another life? This is a hard question.
     
  13. stupidjassi

    stupidjassi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    4
    Listen my dear friend. i know you start feeling too insecurity in Sikhism or you no more like it , i dont know why. but tell you the truth.
    sikh has a amazing way of living. Our History is written in blood. It is scary and yes sikhism is scary place. we have our own way to find god my brother and yet we never initiated violence.

    people look at us like we are from jupiter . you are not different . But i am sorry you are failed to see the other corner of sikhism . The relationship with God himself. You are failed to see why God has made like this and why we do this.

    I dont blame you and not any other. but just wanna give you my good wishes for you journey of bhai` fath or wahtver(in future if you become bhudist etc.). My dear friend stop moving around and find God in yourself. Why you care for religion?

    i will finally recommend you book of Bhai randhir singh(Bhai Randhir Singh - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.). I dont have the url for book but you can read his history. dont worry it has nothing to do with 1984 stuff.

    Its just to tell you what Ideal Sikhi is.

    after you find god, you`ll no longer a muslim, sikh, christian or whatever. u`ll be one with God.

    thanks
    stupidjassi
     
  14. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    i see. so being a convert means i have less right to an opinion?


    does it trouble you that our Gurus fought and killed mughals? does it trouble you that sikhs carry a weapon as one of the five articles of faith? does it trouble you that in addition to being saints, we're also expected to be warriors?

    we are not a pacifistic religion. we do not shy away from bloodshed if it secures the safety of the innocent.

    we're supposed to fight against injustice. and who was that tyrant indira if not injustice personified?
     
    #13 Archived_Member1, Jan 12, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2008
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Jasleen ji

    We are supposed to fight against injustice.

    I am asking, Who has the right to take a life? How do we decide that? Who decides? What kind of questions must be asked before a decision is taken?

    The question is not asked in relation to this thread only. Gobind ji asked these same questions.
     
  16. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    we have not only the right, but the responsibility to fight injustice, when other means fail, it is righteous to draw the sword. we must follow God's will... how do we know what that is? i suppose that depends on the individual.

    ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਹਿ ਤਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਾ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਨਾਦੁ ਵਜਾਵਹਿ ॥
    Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāveh ṯā karahi bibẖūṯā sińī nāḏ vajāvah.
    When it pleases You, we smear our bodies with ashes, and blow the horn and the conch shell.

    ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਮੁਲਾ ਸੇਖ ਕਹਾਵਹਿ ॥
    Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai ṯā paṛeh kaṯėbā mulā sėkẖ kahāveh.
    When it pleases You, we read the Islamic Scriptures, and are acclaimed as Mullahs and Shaykhs.

    ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਸ ਕਸ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ॥
    Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai ṯā hoveh rājė ras kas bahuṯ kamāveh.
    When it pleases You, we become kings, and enjoy all sorts of tastes and pleasures.

    ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਗ ਵਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਰ ਮੁੰਡੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਵਹਿ ॥
    Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai ṯėg vagāveh sir mundī kat jāveh.
    When it pleases You, we wield the sword, and cut off the heads of our enemies.

    ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਜਾਹਿ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਘਰਿ ਆਵਹਿ ॥
    Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai jāhi disanṯar suṇ galā gẖar āvahi.
    When it pleases You, we go out to foreign lands; hearing news of home, we come back again.

    ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਨਾਇ ਰਚਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਤੂੰ ਭਾਵਹਿ ॥
    Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai nā*ė racẖāveh ṯuḏẖ bẖāṇė ṯūʼn bẖāveh.
    When it pleases You, we are attuned to the Name, and when it pleases You, we become pleasing to You.

    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਏਕ ਕਹੈ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਸਗਲੇ ਕੂੜੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥
    Nānak ėk kahai bėnanṯī hor saglė kūṛ kamāveh. ||1||
    Nanak utters this one prayer; everything else is just the practice of falsehood. ||1||

    SGGS p. 145 M1
     
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Jasleen ji

    When I as an individual make this kind of decision, am I taking the law into my own hands?

    If I decide to take even one life for a just cause, how am I different from a jihadi who flies a jet into a skyscraper for a "just cause?"

    Do not be angry with me. You can tell from all that I have said that I despised the Ghandis. All of them. Operation Bluestar was sinful. The question raised in the thread is serious because real ethical dilemmas are built into the topic.

    I am logging off now, but will check in later.
     
  18. International Akaali

    International Akaali
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    59
    interesting topic, and great replys all around.

    I can see what aad is saying how is taking an individual life justified?

    However if we look at history look at the many singhs out there in the jungles that took many lives because of the injustice against them and attained shaheedi.

    Baba Deep Singh fought a feirce battle at the end and i am sure had ended more than a few lives along the way but for what? He did it for a reason. And this reason was for freedom and rights.

    The same could be said for bhai satwant singh, beant singh and kehar singh. They did this for freedom.

    Laws are man made. The only laws we follow are the ones which go in line with shri guru granth sahib ji and no other law can bring this down.

    I look forward to the replies
     
  19. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28
    from the 52 Hukamnama of Guru Gobind Singh ji:


    Sutantar Vicharna. Raaj Kaaj dian kamaan tae doosrae mutaa dia purshaan noo huk nahi daenaa -
    Rule Independently. In the affairs of government, do not give people of other religions authority/power.

    the difference between flying a plane into a building and killing indira is that the jihadi is killing innocents. indira was not an innocent, she was a mass murderer. sikhs don't kill innocent people. to kill a murderer to prevent them from murdering again is standard procedure in many cultures and countries. as sikhs we must uphold justice, even if that means breaking unjust laws to do so.
     
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Gaurhee Guru Teg Bahadur

    ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
    gourree mehalaa 9 ||
    Gauree, Ninth Mehl:

    ਸਾਧੋ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਗਹਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    saadhho eihu man gehiou n jaaee ||
    Holy Saadhus: this mind cannot be restrained.


    ਚੰਚਲ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਯਾ ਤੇ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    chanchal thrisanaa sang basath hai yaa thae thhir n rehaaee ||1|| rehaao ||
    Fickle desires dwell with it, and so it cannot remain

    ਕਠਨ ਕਰੋਧ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜਿਹ ਸੁਧਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਸਰਾਈ ॥
    kathan karodhh ghatt hee kae bheethar jih sudhh sabh bisaraaee ||
    The heart is filled with anger and violence, which cause all sense to be forgotten.

    ਰਤਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਹਿਰਿ ਲੀਨਾ ਤਾ ਸਿਉ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਬਸਾਈ ॥੧॥
    rathan giaan sabh ko hir leenaa thaa sio kashh n basaaee ||1||
    The jewel of spiritual wisdom has been taken away from everyone; nothing can withstand it. ||1||

    ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਹਾਰੇ ਗੁਨੀ ਰਹੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਈ ॥
    jogee jathan karath sabh haarae gunee rehae gun gaaee ||
    The Yogis have tried everything and failed; the virtuous have grown weary of singing God's Glories.

    ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਏ ਦਇਆਲਾ ਤਉ ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੨॥੪॥
    jan naanak har bheae dhaeiaalaa tho sabh bidhh ban aaee ||2||4||
    O servant Nanak, when the Lord becomes merciful, then every effort is successful. ||2||4||

    What rules does an individual use to judge the innocence of another individual?
     
  21. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    Till one lives in a place and is a citizen Of a country his loyalities are to be with the county. In someone's opinion the acts are simply the act of treason and nothing more.

    It is easy to discuss the issue on net and justify your idiocyncracies. However, till we are in Indai we are to be governed by Indian system. If one goes on killing people beause their grievances are not properly taken care Of by the Indian Government I think we are acting Jihadi's. Many people may not agree with all that you have stated.
    Sikhs are not a happy lot on account of the double edged and delayed politics played by the Sikh autorities.

    It was a sad incident ;But what was the repurcussion. Can a community fight a State,. Never. Sikhs suffered in 1984 riots.

    Sikhs could not carve out a state for them so they fret and fume and sit in canada and start some outfit and make their sikh brothers in India suffer the consequences that may not look on the surface as the repurcussion to the acts Of outfit in Canada. What is SGPC doing and for that matter what are rich sikhs sitting in US., UK and canada doing for their brothers and sisters. in India.Is it Sikhi?????
     

Share This Page