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Prophecy or not?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by aristotle, Aug 12, 2013.

  1. aristotle

    aristotle
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    Guru Nanak Sahib was witness to one of the worst carnage in the history of mankind, to the victimization of natives by the invaders, and to the redefinition of social orders. The Gurbani of Guru Nanak Sahib consequently, is one the most preserved mirrors of the society and circumstances of his time. Consider the following Shabad,

    This is a very honest and powerful recounting of the horrors of the Mughal invasion under Babur (1483-1530). There are however, two points I would like to enquire about the tuk,
    * The Mughal invasion of the Indian subcontinent initiated by Babur, and carried further by his heir Humayun (1508-1556) ended in a retreat following huge losses in the Battle of Kannaj(17 May 1540). Humayun's armies retreated to Lahore, and then further back to Sindh (from where he crossed the Sindh river in July 1543 on his way back to Kabul).
    Now, the Shabad in hand states,
    These numerical figures, according to most translations and obviously so, refer to the years of Bikrami calendar(Vikram Samvat started in 57 A.D.).
    I shall provide the various translations of this half-tuk,
    The 'coming' according to all translations refers to the Mughal invasion. They, however differ in the 'going' part. All translations except the Faridkot Teeka put the year of going at '1540 A.D.' which refers to the retreat of Humayun's armies. The Faridkot Teeka considers the '97 not as 1597 but as 1797 Vikram Samvat.
    A possible anachronism(in my view) also arises here as most of the historians put Guru Nanak Sahib's Jyoti-jyot year at 1539 A.D. Did then Guru Nanak Sahib simply put the year of Humayun's retreat in this Shabad as the 'end' of atrocities on Punjab's folk(only if we consider other sources which say Guru Sahib did not leave his body till after 1540 A.D., given the 1539 date, even this truns out as a possible 'prophecy'); or did he prophecise the coming of Khalsa in the near future?

    * The second difficulty I encountered was the interpretation of,
    The translations are,
    Who is this 'disciple of man'?
    Is this a clear prophecy regarding Guru Gobind Singh Sahib or the Khalsa or something else?

    P.S.- Pardon me for such a long post, but I've been pondering over this Shabad for long and I needed some help interpreting it. Also apologies for such a mess of microdissection and for posting single tuks and even half tuks.
     
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    From what I have read the Mard Ka Chela is Sher Shaha Suree who defeated Humayun.
    On his way back to kabul, Humayun came to Khadoor sahib to get the Blessings of Guru Angad Sahib Ji...when he entered Guru Ji's tent, Guru ji was in deep meditation..after waiting a while Humayun got angry and drew his sword - whereupon Guru ji admonished him..This sword of yours should have been raised in the Battlefield like a Mard not at Fakirs like me. What Guru nanak ji wrote is a Factual eye wittness account- nothing more or less.

    I dont beleive Guru Ji beleives in Miracles and prophecies. We Sikhs are firm blievers in HUKM..and HUKM means He can CHANGE at any second..so how can we also beleive in Prophecy which means FIXING HIM TO a certain thing to be done at a certain time...can we really BIND HIM like that ?? not in my book. (SGGS)

    I will look for further written support or different opinions on this.



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  4. aristotle

    aristotle
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    Thanks GyaniJi.
    This makes sense and fits with the timeline.
    I was however, disappointed by the lack of research or interpretative studies on such a powerful subject as this one. Of all the books on Gurbani I have, some by renowned Sikh scholars, no one touches the subject.
     
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  5. spnadmin

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    aristotle ji

    Thanks for the heavy lifting you have done regarding this shabad. Especially helpful has been the reconstruction of the time line. After reading and re-reading your conversation with Gyani ji - who has given the sense of what Humayun was doing on his trip back to Kabul -- the thought came to me about this part.

    We are reading not prophecy but prediction - written in irony that the more things change the more we can expect more of the same. As long as Satan is in charge of the marriage rights.

    Guru Nanak had witnessed the devastation and misery caused by Babar, then followed by battles between Humayun and his opponent Sher Shuha Suree. Capping his defeat, Humayan nonetheless stops by to menace even Guru Angad. Before Babar there were invasions, misery and devastation. Babar himself brought misery and devastation. Following the death of Babar, there was more invasion, misery and devastation. Could Guru Nanak actually have a very simple message that is tempting to to see as prophecy? Could he be saying in that tuk: Be assured, this is not the end, there will be more, as there as always been. Each tyrant will be followed yet by another. Not prophesy so much as Guru Nanak's all too realistic sense that the lust for power and the lack of morality guides "disciples of men." It has done so forever, and will do so again. "Another disciple of man will rise up!" [You can count on it.]

    Reading back to the preceding verses it is clear that the sorry state described there had progressed to a complete loss of moral compass throughout the land. It did not happen suddenly. Therefore, why would it not continue? Guru Nanak points out that everyone has ignored the true Lord and Master, the true commander. After Babar and after Humayun, of course another tyrant will emerge. That is not prophecy so much as realism.
     
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  6. spnadmin

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    Perhaps I am belaboring what is obvious. However, the marriage rites conducted by Satan continue. When in modern history has there been no tyrant who has not left a wake of misery behind him? The shabad can be too narrowly interpreted to apply only to a particular point in time and a particular place. It is a broader moral message for mankind.
     
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  7. aristotle

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    ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ Shalok, Third Mehl:
    ਪਰਥਾਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸਾਝੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੈ ॥
    Great men speak the teachings by relating them to individual situations, but the whole world shares in them.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਭਉ ਕਰੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥
    One who becomes Gurmukh knows the Fear of God, and realizes his own self.
    ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
    If, by Guru's Grace, one remains dead while yet alive, the mind becomes content in itself.
    ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇ ਕਿਆ ਕਥਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੈ ॥੧॥
    Those who have no faith in their own minds, O Nanak - how can they speak of spiritual wisdom? ||1||
    (Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, Page 647)
     
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  8. spnadmin

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    aristotle ji

    No one can make the point quite like Guru Amardas ji.

    We however have still to work out the time line problem. :winkingkaur: Quite a fascinating puzzle.
     
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  9. japjisahib04

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    Dear Spnadmin Jee,
    you are right the sabd definately contains broader message for elevation of our mind and is not limited to historical events as that event has now passed and gurbani is for ever.

    SBD at p.722 follows other parts of Babur Bani of Guru Nanak at pp. 360, 417, and 418 in Raag AASAA. First we must know whether Lalo mentioned in sabd relates to Bhai Lalo or someone else. Who is 'paap ki janj'? Second whether it is related to Babur invasion. If yes then why all the four sabds are mentioned at different pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and why not together. For this we can take support of gurbani. On page 1089-3 in raag maru mehla first by Guru Nanak says, 'na maila na dhundla na bhagwa na kach - nanak lalo laal hai sachai rata sach - Now who becomes maila - it is manh, what becomes cloudy - it is manh - what fakes bhagwa it is manh and what is immature - it is manh without divine wisdom. And then Guru sahib says the manh which is colored with divine message is transformed mind - lalo laal. Further 'Laal' is jewel as gurbani says, 'gujda ladham laal mathai hi parghat theea - the hidden jewel has been found which has transformed me. Now you yourself decides whether sabd is for transformation of my mind or is referring to history of Moghal emporer Babur.Thus unique technique used by guru sahib is that though name of history characters are used but they are for my elevation of today. And not just to remind that Babar or anyone came and attacked the india.

    Permit me first to interpret the most difficult line, 'avan aath trai jaan stanvai - hor bhi uthsi mard ka chaila'. As per my understanding, it is not 78 or 97 as message of gurbani cannot be limited to one time. To me it looks like 'aath' and 'trai' are two different word. 'aath' - stands for eight virtues of Akal Purakh from 'aunkar to swvey bhang' stated in mool mantar means whosoever enshrine all the major eights virtues of akal purakh will enter into bliss or transformed whereas those who ignore these eight virtues and come under 'satta' the influence of maya will suffer, thus lose their chance in gamble. And by following this 'gur' - the technique 'hor bhi uthsi mard ka cheyla - it was an answer to islamic belief that Prophet Mohd is the last messenger of God - that the one who have the guts to speak the truth or language of God will keep on coming. We already have 35 mard ka cheyla sitting in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If my this intepretation sounds OK,upon your nod I will continue with the rest of pankti.

    best regards
    sahni mohinder
     
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  10. spnadmin

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    Many of us give you the "nod" on this and any other interpretations you have to tell us. It is less a matter of sounding OK to the inexperienced like me, and more a case of being exposed to your sharp understanding.
     
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  11. aristotle

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    Thanks for contributing to the thread Singh Ji.
    Yeah, and please do continue.
     
  12. japjisahib04

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    I been always saying Gurbani is universal, each and every pankti applies to everyone for transformation. Thus when we relate this sabd, with the story of Guru Nanak’ visit to Bhai Lalo and dialogue with him, I can accept logically city of Kabul, Babar, Bhai Lalo. But the question arises when in the sabd, Guru Sahib is revealing working and characters of participants like Kaazi, Brahman, Muslim women, Hindu women of high and low status of that time, then who are these participant in that sequence of the same time named ‘saram and dharm’ of that time, where Babar met them and why they disappeared seeing Babar's army. If they were human beings, then which religion they belonged and in which world they were living, what were they wearing etc. etc.? I am seriously posing this question as contents of history can always be subjective and biased and when Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says, 'bura bhala n kis nu kehia - then how could we label and interpret 'paap ki janj - as army of sinner from Kabul' especially when gurbani throughout describes prime virtues of God as 'mith bolda ji oh kadai n bolai kouda - who does not even considered my short comings, thus labeling anyone sinner(paapi) or 'murakh' does not arise in the dictionary of guru sahib.

    In addition, if the sabd is really discussing a dialogue with Bhai Lalo, then why whole episode is not written altogether at one place and also in one raag, like the Sidh Ghost and why is it scattered between page 300 to page 722 and why all these four sabds were named babarvaani by our scholars. Further it was not an eyewitness piece that guru sahib through sattelite were watching and dictating. Why the different parts of the so-called Babar Vani are in different parts of the Guru Granth Sahib. I say 'so-called' since there is no indication in the Guru Granth Sahib that these texts are linked. My purpose is only to extract the essence and how it helps me to be truthful and or how the prophesy makes my life truthful.

    If confusion still persists, then best way is to check the context/topic from the first sabd of Tilang Raag on page 721 to drive the true message Guru Sahib is trying to pass, which is written in Persian language stating, 'sabh roz gastam .. this is my state of mind that I wandered day and night aimlessly in greed, contemplating on evil schemes and as such it has become my nature, thus I never thought of doing good deeds nor had mercy on anyone i.e. I have a request at your door, 'yaq arz guftam .. You are spotless and I am full of spots, kindly grant me wisdom to make me spotless. This is the context of the Tilang Rag. Since I live in Arab country I have good knowledge of Arabic and Persian language and when guru sahib says 'mam sar muey' he is not pointing towards pulling from hairs (as I have never seen anyone being pulled by 'Jamm' from hair) as was translated earlier by several scholars group - but azrael (evil thought process) have taken control of my thought process. With this perspective if we interpret the gurbani, we will find powerful and meaningful message. Guru sahib says, 'nanak gayan japai jaeyn - only those can anylize or realize the true message who have experienced the truth.

    Now coming to 'jaisi mai aavai khasam ki baani - why Guru sahib is telling, 'jaisi mai aavai - does it descend by itself - if yes then why it is not descending upon us. Simply reading for the sake of reading, able to write articles/deliver lecture to impress other or kirtan was not what guru sahib wanted. It seems Guru sahib had learned the technique of listening the message, thus was qualified to drive the baani of khasm from within and 'taisara kari gian vai lalo - by living or transmitting the divine message to his body organ was able to transform himself. Further if it was narration of babars attack, then why it is said to be khasam ki baani - because - vasi rabh hialeeye - God resides within us thus divine gems, we retrieve from within belongs to God.

    best regards
    sahni mohinder
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    japjisahibji

    I have more to say but cannot express it right now. Need time to think. Just these 2 thoughts right now want to be expressed. To have command of the Persian and Arabic is an obvious strength because you added a completely new and important layer to understanding the shabad. In addition, your explanation of the difficulties with the "disciple of Man" helps me see how the Faridkot translation is different from the others ... though no explanation is given anywhere else. So your efforts have had consequences.

    And your last 2 comments make it seem all the more important to first find the wholistic meaning of any shabad before straining with the technicalities of translating specific words and phrases. Once the big picture shapes up, sometimes the specifics fall into place. This however was an extra hard task.
     
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  14. japjisahib04

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    Dear Spnadmin Jee

    Thanks. Gurbani guides me, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਏਹੁ ਪਟੰਤਰਾ ਤਿਤੁ ਦੀਬਾਣਿ ਗਇਆਹ ॥੧॥ only by experiencing and living with truth one can analyze or comprehend the divine messages. Sometime I wonder whether angels really were bringing divine message for Prophet Mohammed or like Faridkotwala teeka, Islamic scholars have also made somewhere misinterpretation of qoran as gurbani also refers to fairies in this sabd, 'ਰਾਗ ਰਤਨ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਪਰੀਆ ਸਬਦ ਗਾਵਣ ਆਈਆ ॥- the fairies are bringing the divine message in different tunes. The only difference is as per gurbani everyone (sabh muklavan har) is qualified to encounter with fairies Ithe godly message).

    best regards
    sahni mohinder
     
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  15. japjisahib04

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    Second line, 'paap ki janjh' lai kabulohn dhaeya jori mangai daan vai lalo - It will be very unfair to call all the barati of Kabul as pappi. Secondly when guru sahib himself in first pankti says, 'taisra kari gian vai lalo - so do I transmit divine message and implement on me. Will same transformed guru will call anyone or whole army as sinner. Thus, Guru sahib is not referring anyone paapi but using 'paap ki jangh' as barat of(vices vikar, kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, where ego is the bridgegroom) and over here as per my understanding, 'kabulohn is not Kabul - city of Afghanistan(gubani is for ever and tommorrow any ruler may change the name of city) but kabhalou - fully acquainted or charged mind(jamm - demons thought) is distancing itself from the godly virtues. It is the system - laws of nature of God and 'Jori mangai daan vai laalo - here laalo stands for corrupted mind which does not realize how it is hurting others by exploiting or demanding others right.

    best regards
    sahni mohinder
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Interesting thoughts sahni ji..thanks.

    In relation to KABUL..there is a alleged Hukmnamah of Guru Gobind Singh Ji supposedly addressed to KABUL SANGAT..and many have been saying its addressed to the Sangat in KABUL..while some argue its KA Bal...Power of Sangat. Some time ago there was this kathawachak (home grown in Indnesia) who was claiming that its JAKARTA as in Capital of Indnesia in the japji Sahib Tuk..JaanKarta sirthhe kau.sajjeh...and again do kar chalaveh as He drives twin cars. This is not a joke..its the exact same methodology where in Kabullohn is immediatelya ccepted as coming from kabul !!




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  17. spnadmin

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    japjisahib ji

    Unfortunately I will be gone to sleep by the time you answer my questios, but I want to write them down while they are fresh in my mind.

    I may misunderstand what you are saying. When you give the metaphorical meaning of words and phrases in the shabads related to Babar, it is clear to me how the moral and spiritual meanings fit well with the actual words and terms used. I can make the connection from the literal to another intended moral meaning. Your interpretation of the Arabic and Persian also has intrigued me -- a good example being the mind being tortured when the shabad is talking of pulling hairs.

    Here lies my confusion. You also seem to be saying that Guru Nanak was not an eye-witness to the sack of Lahore and the brutality of Babar. Yet, we know that he was an eye-witness, how could he escape seeing it. He was there and we are also told he spent time in prison. Guru Nanak speaks directly of the women who were jailed, their humiliation and suffering. That was also very real. You also seem to say there are no Babarbani, relating Guru Nanak's experiences.

    I believe Guru Nanak was expressing very real moral outrage at Babar's atrocities. That Guru Arjan dev placed different parts of the Babar story in different places within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because they illustrate or serve as examples of the moral failings that are explored in the shabads contained in each raag.

    So perhaps you are not denying the sack of Lahore, or Guru Nanak's eye-witness experience, and I am misunderstanding you. Originally I thought you were describing how the real event in the shabad carries with it a broader message for all humankind. Now I am not certain. Would you clarify this for me? I could be taking you too literally.
     
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  18. japjisahib04

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    Gyani ji

    You and Spnadmin are my role model and I have learnt from both of you the basic fundamental of gurbani to remain in a state of love and always express chardi kala. Thus based on your affection, I don't think guru sahib was panic and or was expressing grief on the destruction of particular place and humiliation to weaker section like woman. It is our moral duty to protect ourselves and not to blame anyone. Even the pankti, 'ਏਤੀ ਮਾਰ ਪਈ ਕਰਲਾਣੇ ਤੈਂ ਕੀ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ is not addressed to God but to my mind to wake up now. God is not sleeping or incomplete that He needs to be reminded - satguru jagta hai deo.

    I like your sense of humor on JAKARTA and DO KAR CHALAVaI but trust me I am not joking. I am only trying to explore the message and or essence out of sabd for my today. I earlier said that in unique technique applied by Guru Sahib, though name of history characters are used but they are for my elevation of today and not what is passed.

    Best regards
    sahni Mohinder
     
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  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    I get the point Sahni ji is making. The "eye wittness account" of Babar's invasion, the barbarity etc is all real and seen..BUT the Ilahi GURBANI is for ALL TIME and UNIVERSAL.the MESSAGE BEHIND the Shabad is for ALL OF US and to teach us a LESSON in LIFE...Guru Ji is very clear as to WHY the women and the rest suffered the fate they did..it was becasue of fall in moral standards, debauchery, tyranny of the rulers etc...faults of the human and NOT the Creator.....thus even when Guru Ji mentions that his son" Bala hargobind" has been saved from a fever and is well...the GURBANI SHABAD is universal in spirit and meaning..its meant to UPLIFT us all into a higher consciousness...when the Sulhi Khan shabd is read..its not solely about a historical incident..the DIVINE MESSAGE is clear and transparent. SGGS transcends TIME and PLACE...



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  20. spnadmin

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    OK Thanks then to both of you - Japjisahib04 and Gyani ji! I over interpreted then 2 of the recent comments. All is well.
     
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  21. japjisahib04

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