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Interfaith Nanak Is The Guru - Nanak Is The Lord Himself - Page 865, SGGS

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Shaheen, Sep 22, 2015.

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  1. Shaheen

    Shaheen
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    I am a new member and Muslim. I am not here to attack your religion. I got curious about your religion after being questioned by my 16 year old son on the nature of God according to the Sikh faith.

    Here I am as a result of that query from my son! I have read this thread and have got mixed messages about God both from the members and from your scripture. For example: In page 865 of your holy book, it is stated 'Nanak is the Guru - Nanak is the Lord Himself'.

    Now, the question a human being like me would ask: How is Guru Nanak not god, when your book explicitly says so here and some other places? I am not talking about the spiritual nearness to God. I am talking about the God Himself (being Guru Nanak?).
     
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    Dear Shaheen ji. Thanks for the post as it made me read page 865 of SGGS ji. Nowhere did I find a verse which says Guru Nanak is God himself.
     
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  4. Ishna

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  5. Ishna

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    Here is the shabad. The tuk in question is the last line.

    ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ
    Gond mėhlā 5.
    Gond, Fifth Mehl:

    ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ
    Gur merī pūjā gur gobinḏ.
    I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ
    Gur merā pārbarahm gur bẖagvanṯ.
    My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਦੇਉ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਉ
    Gur merā ḏe▫o alakẖ abẖe▫o.
    My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious.

    ਸਰਬ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਉ ॥੧॥
    Sarab pūj cẖaran gur se▫o. ||1||
    I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1||

    ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਥਾਉ
    Gur bin avar nāhī mai thā▫o.
    Without the Guru, I have no other place at all.

    ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਪਉ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    An▫ḏin japa▫o gurū gur nā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause||

    ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ
    Gur merā gi▫ān gur riḏai ḏẖi▫ān.
    The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ
    Gur gopāl purakẖ bẖagvān.
    The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God.

    ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਰਹਉ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ
    Gur kī saraṇ raha▫o kar jor.
    With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary.

    ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੋਰੁ ॥੨॥
    Gurū binā mai nāhī hor. ||2||
    Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2||

    ਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਭਵ ਪਾਰਿ
    Gur bohith ṯāre bẖav pār.
    The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean.

    ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ
    Gur sevā jam ṯe cẖẖutkār.
    Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death.

    ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਉਜਾਰਾ
    Anḏẖkār mėh gur manṯar ujārā.
    In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth.

    ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੩॥
    Gur kai sang sagal nisṯārā. ||3||
    With the Guru, all are saved. ||3||

    ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ
    Gur pūrā pā▫ī▫ai vadbẖāgī.
    The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune.

    ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਲਾਗੀ
    Gur kī sevā ḏūkẖ na lāgī.
    Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone.

    ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ
    Gur kā sabaḏ na metai ko▫e.
    No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥
    Gur Nānak Nānak har so▫e. ||4||7||9||
    Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

    Edit: My apologies, I had pasted two shabads here by mistake. It is now fixed.
     
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    #4 Ishna, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  6. chazSingh

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    On the same page it also says...the Guru and the trancendental lord are one...the Guru remains absorbed in the Lord. ..

    These are hints as to what the last tuk means....we cannot understand this state...we can only imagine and contemplate...

    The drop taken from the ocean is not the ocean...the ocean is not the drop...yet they are both water...

    Contemplate.

    Thankfully. .. SGGS ji shows us how we can experience this state for ourselves...whilst we are alive in human form...because the light within all of us is just like another drop from the ocean...it's not to wait until death to realise anything...

    It is in this moment where we can unravel these secrets and see feel and hear for ourselves...
     
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  7. Shaheen

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    I thank everyone for their replies. Chaz Singh! The concept of God in Sikh religion is more of a fundamental nature than that of the mere personality of Guru Nanak. As SGGS states:
    The Creation is in the Creator (God), and the Creator is in the Creation,
    totally pervading and permeating all places (sggs 1350).

    So, really my question does not need an answer as the matter prevades the whole creation and not just a single personality.

    Hence, my question should rather be: Does SGGS forbade (in other places) calling the creation of God as gods?
     
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  8. chazSingh

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    there are many shabads describing the creative nature of God....countless are His creations, whether they are gods, angels, saints, sages, elephants and ants...but the sole focus in order to experience and realize the true nature behind it all, is to focus on the One.

    Ik - from the one
    ONG - Came the word, the sound, the shabad...
    KAAR - from that word, sound, shabad came the creation...

    focus on the IK, the One....and the Sound, the word, the Shabad Guru will unravel the one, the Ik...

    just like Jesus said....in the beginning was the 'word' the word was with God....the word was God....

    God is all pervading and also within everything...we are within the creator...and yet He is also beyond...infinite...
    therefore He is also in You :)... look within whilst alive in the human form, the greatest creation created by God, our human form.

    just my thoughts ji based on my current journey...in no way complete...
     
  9. Original

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    Welcome, Shaheen ! Page 1349 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji [SGGSJ, the Holy Scriptures, which incidentally is universal and not just "Sikh", just like Quran Sharif Sahib, a divine revelation]. Bhagat Kabir Ji weaves it beautifully, thus, avar Allah noor u'paya kudrat ka sub banday I Ek noor te sub jug oopjaya kaun ballay ko manda. Translation: all makes n models of creation are of one substance. Question: if this'd be divine proclamation, what of its subjects and their worldview in general?
    ..wow! that's a pretty strong statement to make, given Sikhism promotes unity in diversity, but pls be our guest, of a disposition suitable to you!
    ...everyone's scriptures, albeit, sung in local dialect of North India [Punjab]. There are 36 composers whose writngs are enshrined within the pages of SGGSJ. They are called Banikars [reciters of religious text] compostion of which is a mix of Guru's, Bhagats, Ministrals, Bhatts and others.
    ..no doubt you'd appreciate the importance of sitting right throughout the film in order to make sense, that is to say, hundreds and thousands of different scenes are played out by multiple actors, yet the meaning of the film cannot be seen before its last scene. Similarly, to understand Nanak's Sikhism you cannot by means of few verses here n few verses there and that too, out of context make rational judgments. You've got to study the root n branch of the subject, object and the predicate to make a sound call. Likewise, the question abvove warrants a teleological view of an ontological concept to make sense.
    ...there's a lot to take in for one sitting, accordingly, I'm gonna give you an off-the-cuff view !

    Generally speaking Gurbani [text of scriptures, in other words, saadi maa boli - language of our forefathers] is considered to be a type of religious poetry. Where, poetry is composed by a poet, Bani however, is written by Banikar. In places Bani is a direct revelation of God, that is, in the absence of an agent [Gabriel, for example] and in others, it's a mystical experience.

    Man is central to poetry, expressions of human emotions, cravings, ups n downs of life revolves around humanistic level. Whereas, Gurbani centres around the Brahm [Nanak's Allah, IKONKAR], the universe. It seeks to address philosophical questions of the relationship bteween man and God, man and universe, man in various social settings and the meaning n purpose of human birth [teleological].

    Man's scope of experience has always been limited to time n space, result of which is expressed in view of visible reality and human realationships of the physical world. The Banikars possess a divine perspective by which not only do they analyse the mystic trends of the invisible working behind the visible, but also present them on the level of reality for Banikars travel from this world to the next.

    The focal point that lies at the heart of the Sikh Scriptures is the personal experience of the Divine. It is this experience that leads to the consummation of all human endeavours. It takes one beyond the realms of time n space, releases one from the cycle of birth n death and produces the positive state of bliss, beatitude, and eternal peace.This is the transcendental realm of the Divine - an ultimate non-sensous unity in all, a oneness, which the senses and reason cannot penetrate, a state where subject object become one, a state of non-duality. It is in this regard that you'd find similar expressions where the Banikars have merged with the Eternal and thus recorded. It is not they who profess or proclaim such divinity, but God, a revelation. Classic example is afforded on page 722 of SGGSJ, here Guru Nanak explains to Bhai Lalo that the audiable sound flowing through him [Nanak] is coming directly from the Lord. Of course, we're akin to that kind of revelation, Muhammed Sahib and the angel Gabriel, to say the least.

    The concept of Sargun [form] and Nirgun [substance] is to that end with whcih you've raised your son's question. The idea is for the form to culminate into formlessness. In other words, the form Nanak [visible] to culminate into the formless [invisible] substance, say God. And, as I said above, since this is neither perception nor non-perception, a state of transcendental bliss, rational thinking and emperical observance fall short to capture the mystical experience within which subject object become 1.
     
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  10. Original

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    ..on the whole, SGGSJ is not restrictive and negative, but rather active and positive, hence, chardi kala [ascending spirt 24/7]. The God in question would always be the transcendental Divine, our nearest n dearest possession in whom we live, move and have our being.
     
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  11. Shaheen

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    If SGGSJ is not restrictive and negative on the issue of multiple gods, how does the claim of 'one God' still remain a valid one? How does Sikhism differ from Hinduism for example?
     
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  12. chazSingh

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    just for a moment. forget the names of religions etc...

    close your eyes and just imagine an ocean....huge endless ocean...infinite....
    a wave appears (which is something in creation)...then another...then another...you see hundreds and thousands of waves...so many creations, so many beings, so many forms and shapes...wow...just wow :) .. now there are so many waves, you don;t see anything else...just the waves...waves fighting with each other, crashing with each other...competing with each other...etc etc...

    then you get into a hot air balloon, and the higher you go, the waves become less visible....then even higher still....you realize there is only One thing that you see.....'the ocean', there only ever was One...the one creator sustaner and destroyer...just one endless ocean of possibilities and creative power. then when you return to ground level, you inspire the waves to not fight or compete, to love each other....'we are One' you say...:)

    multiple gods, creatures, forms and shapes or whatever (which are the waves in the above analogy) it doesn't matter what we are talking about....if you want to know the truth of everything..you've got to get in that hot air balloon, so high that you realize and see the truth....there is only One...and it is that One from which everything else emanated.

    now open your eyes...that's pretty cool isn't it?...forget about labels and names of religions and multiple demi gods or gods or anything like that...do you want to bypass all of that and come to know of that 'ONE', and only that One?...the truth of everything...the invisible behind the visible...the ocean...:)

    God Bless ji
     
    #11 chazSingh, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  13. Shaheen

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    It seems confusing to me as far as the teaching of SGGS are concerned. It seems, conflicting messages are being given or received to say the least.

    “Singed be the tongue which says that the Lord takes birth” (GG, 1136).

    Guru Gobind Singh ji says that the person who calls him God will go to hell.

    The above refutes the notion (found in other places of SGGS) of multiple gods or incarnation of God.

    Peace be to the one upon guidance.
     
  14. Original

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    ..what multiple gods ?
    ..there never was a claim on part Nanak, yes, reaffirmation of the existence of the Divine Being !
    ... ideology [see post #8] is pre-historic, no date could be put, but yes, as regard IKONKAR [Nanak's Allah], Nanak's true monotheism is timeless, shapeless, formless and does not come into the cycle of life n death. It was raised above the Hindu Trinity of the Godhead, that is, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva [polytheism], which were very much evident within the periodic creation and dissolution of the cosmos.
     
  15. Original

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    ..I'm sorry to hear that ! Truth be told, the writings within SGGSJ are not teachings per se, but more a guide and testimony of the ontological IKONKAR.
    ..again, I'm sorry to hear, but pls feel free and throw anything at me !
    ..correction if I'm allowed, "singed be the face through which blasphemous words are said of the Lord's reincarnations". This was to raise the level of awaremess of the people to reconceptualise ontological's incomprehensible form. A deterrence in a way, pretty much like the speed camera's on the roads, designed to keep-in check the safety of all within specified zones.
    Again, to re-align thought prcoess of the masses to the immortal being rather than the mortal.
    ..pls be more specific !
    Goodnight n Godbless
     
  16. Original

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    Hey Chaz n Ishna G...nice to know you're still sniffing around at 23:19 [UK], but it's a pleasure to be sharing Waheguru's wisdom with likeminded people, including Shaheen. And, since Shaheen a guest I thought best to respond ASAP against me going to bed at usual time, all worth it I suppose.

    Goodnight
     
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  17. Shaheen

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    Let us deal with the issue of multiple gods. Is there any evidence for the approval of multiple gods in SGGS? Yes! There are many.

    Page 249, Line 2
    ਸੁਰ ਸਿਧ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗੁਣ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਗਤੀ ਗਾਇਆ ॥
    सुर सिध गण गंधरब मुनि जन गुण अनिक भगती गाइआ ॥
    Sur siḏẖ gaṇ ganḏẖarab mun jan guṇ anik bẖagṯī gā▫i▫ā.
    The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises.
    Guru Arjan Dev

    Now, the question is: Why dos SGGS make the claim of 'God is One' in other places?

    Peace! Om Shanti!
     
  18. JourneyOflife

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    One thing to keep in mind is just because something is mentioned in Gurbani, does not mean it is done so in a literal sense. Gurbani uses metaphors for many different things and frequently alludes to concepts found in other religions. It mentions the Hindu angels Chitr and Gupt, but then also the Abrahamic Arch Angel Gabriel. It talks about reincarnation, but also mentions heaven and hell. It talks about the Hindu concept of multiple gods, but then also prophets like Muhammad and even Adam, as well as the 18,000 worlds mentioned in Jewish scripture. Did the Gurus really want Sikhs to accept all these conflicting worldviews simultaneously?

    Of course not! They are used for very specific purposes and that purpose arguably always becomes clear when the entirety of the Shabad is read instead of plucking out just a single line, as has been done above. That quote about multiple gods is from here: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=249&english=t&id=10866

    Now continue reading the Shabad and notice what the Guru goes on to say. He is calling out to a "Supreme Lord God", a "Transcendent Lord", who is "infinite" and "wields all power". He isn't calling out to multiple gods here, he is calling out to only one Infinite, All-Powerful being.

    So then why the reference to multiple "gods" in the above line? Because very rarely does Gurbani just come out and say things like "LOL silly people, your beliefs are so stupid." It does heavily criticize certain religious practices in some places but as Original Ji pointed out above, "on the whole, SGGSJ is not restrictive and negative, but rather active and positive." This usually translates into the Guru re-shifting the attention of the reader in the appropriate direction rather than making them feel horrible on the inside.

    If we actually read the entirety of the Shabad above, then is it intellectually honest to say the Guru was actually promoting belief in multiple gods here? I don't think that is the case at all. Rather if I believed in multiple gods it would make me think "well Guru Arjan Dev Ji says the God he is talking about is singular, is infinite, all-powerful, wields all the power and is transcendent. He even says the multiple gods I believe in sing the Glorious Praises of that One God. So then why do I believe in them? Why do I worship them? Why should I believe in these beings when the Guru has plainly said they are far far beneath the One Infinite Lord?" That is what I would be thinking in my head.

    The idea of multiple gods is inconsistent with Ik Onkar. Every Shabad in SGGS starts with "Ik Onkar, SatGur Prasad..." And Guru Arjun Dev Ji is the single largest contributor to SGGS. He, more than anyone else, would have known this fact. Given the evidence, there is no reason whatsoever to think he actually wanted people to believe in multiple gods, and every reason to think he was shifting people's attention away from belief in these multiple gods towards the One, Infinite Transcendent Being.

    By the way, Gurbani doesn't rule out the possibility of other higher-power beings existing somewhere out there. The universe/multiverse are so large it would be silly of us to think humans are the most powerful creatures in existence. It is overwhelmingly likely that there are innumerable species of beings out there who would seem "god-like" to us. Stephen Hawkings says the same. And who knows, maybe that's what the Guru is referring to above, and that too is a possibility since Gurbani explicitly states that this is not the only planet with life and that the universe is teeming with it. But just like everything else, these god-like beings will also be singing the Glorious Praises of the One Transcendent Being, Waheguru.
     
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  19. Shaheen

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    Saying something to someone, then denying it as literal when the apparent is literal - is not something the human civilisation would accept as a valid way of conducting our business, be it spiritual or physical. We have to say what we mean - othewise, how can one be taken seriously (if one wants to be taken seriously)?

    That is not say that no metaphor should be present in a serious discussion or book. However, things have their limits and places. (The gods, the Siddhas, the angels, the heavenly singers, the silent sages and the devotees sing Your countless Glorious Praises.) - You should see that no metaphor was presented here, just as in the following:

    ''My mind has become sad and depressed; how can I see God, the Great Giver? My Friend and Companion is the Dear Lord, the Guru, the Architect of Destiny. The One Lord, the Architect of Destiny, is the Master of the Goddess of Wealth; how can I, in my sadness, meet You?'' (SGGS p247)

    Please tell me as to what is metaphoric about the 'Goddess of Wealth'? Such association of partners with God is contradictory to the claim (in the same sentence) of worshipping one true Lord.
     
    #18 Shaheen, Sep 24, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2015
  20. japjisahib04

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    Yes it not only forbids but tells to avoid them. Gurbani regretfully points out that, 'ਚਚਾ ਰਚਿਤ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੨॥ God has painted the greatest picture of the world with various colors but now these wondrous creations (Forms) have become the cause of concern, as mankind is emotionally involved with them and have diverted to worship picture of His creations instead of direct connection through introspection. Guru Nanak taught to love creation as a manifestation of the one' is a subtle play. ” - Guru Granth ang.340.15. I was sad to note that a billionior Shivinder Singh is associated with Radha Suami. Gurbani tells us, 'ਛਪੜਿ ਢੂਢੈ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਚਿਕੜਿ ਡੁਬੈ ਹਥੁ ॥੫੩॥. SGGS.1380
     
  21. Ishna

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    Shaheen Ji

    As has already been mentioned, Gurbani is poetry, and metaphor is a frequently used poetic device. Also mentioned previously is the importance of looking at entire Gurbani verses at once, rather than picking out sentences. This is vital, and is even a requirement as part of our terms of service. I thank you so far for providing page number references.

    Before we change to the Goddess of Wealth shabad, it might be good to further consider the present shabad regarding gods singing. If you read the entire shabad, does the mention of 'gods' really stand out? Or is it but a single brush stroke on a larger picture? Gurbani is clear, and the vast majority of Sikhs agree; the Creator is One.

    It is hard to say anything more than what JourneyOflife Ji has already said, really.

    Something to keep in mind is that Sikhi is not monotheistic as much as it is panentheistic. Sikhi doesn't have the same God/angel/human/devil structure as the Abrahamic religions. This is possibly the most important thing to get your head around, jio. Then the Gurbani might start to make a little bit more sense.
     
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