Interfaith Nanak Is The Guru - Nanak Is The Lord Himself - Page 865, SGGS

[Ishna]

It doesn't theologically, but do ontologically, that is, ACT n BEING of GOD respectively.

What does this actually mean? You lose me with your sesquipedalianism.

 

[Shaheen]

God doesn't take birth in anyone.

My apologies for disagreeing. SGGS states otherwise:
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. (SGGS p1407)

 

[Shaheen]

Are you genuinely here for clarifications or interrogations ? Seems rather odd, coz, what ought to serve number of conducive purposes as an interfaith-dialogue systems in achieving community ethos is beginning to look more like a fishing expedition with an ulterior motive. The interfaith value of SGGSJ is central in uniting humankind and yet, here you are with a personal agenda ripping it apart. I think we should all revisit and remind ourselves of the obligations to further religious pluralism and bring about harmony in the strife-torn world than to nit-pick ideological and theological concepts of our respective faiths.

Clarifications may not be achieved without asking questions and testing our understanding. This may appear as interrogations. You are free to interrogate me, for a man of faith should be prepared to go through a bit of tests in his life. Did the Gurus not go through trials and tribulations? If you are upon the true guidance of the Gurus, then you need not fear.

I am not here for a fishing expedition. I don't ask for any wage from you, nor am I getting paid by anyone. If there is any agenda, that will perhaps be, to please the Lord we are supposed to believe in.

The unity of mankind could be achieved if they agree on worshipping the true God, not through worshipping His incarnations, for which different people have their own versions - each conflicting with other. Does not SGGS insist that true guidance can only be found through the Gurus?

 

[Ishna]

Ji, you need to start reading the full shabads. You will gain the context you are missing. As stated earlier, quoting single tuks is actually frowned upon in our terms of service for the very reason that it makes it hard-to-impossible to understand.

The shabad you're reading is by the poet Kall, in a section of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is contains work by poet-contemporaries of the Guru Sahiban. They are specifically honouring the Gurus.

Have another read of the panna you quoted from, available here: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1407&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=2&p=0&k=0&fb=0 .

I notice a few things straight away:
1. It says Guru Arjun Sahib Ji was a saint of the Lord
2. It says Guru Arjun Sahib Ji made the Guru's shabad (word) manifest
3. It says the Lord can be seen through the Guru (the Guru is the gateway/window to understanding and connecting with the Lord)
4. "In the house of Guru Ram Dass, Guru Arjan Dev has been manifested as the Embodiment of the Fearless Lord. ||2||" It is not that any of the Gurus are actually God per say, but they radiate God's light so thoroughly through their wisdom and their conduct that devotees may get a glimpse of the Ik Onkar.
5. Read verse number 4!

ਖੇਲੁ ਗੂੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਉ ਕੀਅਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਸੰਤੋਖਿ ਸਮਾਚਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਓ ਬਿਮਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਮਾਣਉ ॥
Kẖel gūṛĥa▫o kī▫a▫o har rā▫e sanṯokẖ samācẖri▫ya▫o bimal buḏẖ saṯgur samāṇa▫o.
God, the King, has staged the wondrous play and has infused and amassed contentment and immaculate understanding, in the True Guru.

ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਵਿਅਉ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵੀਅਣਿ ਬਖਾਣਿਅਉ ॥
Ājonī sambẖvi▫a▫o sujas kal▫y kavī▫aṇ bakẖāṇi▫a▫o.
The poets, like Kall, recite the sublime praise of the Guru, who is the manifestation of the unborn and self-illumined Lord.

ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਗਦਿ ਅਮਰ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥
Gur Nānak angaḏ var▫ya▫o gur angaḏ amar niḏẖān.
Guru Nanak blessed Angad and Guru Angad blest Amar Dass with the Name Treasure.

ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ॥੪॥
Gur Rāmḏās arjun var▫ya▫o pāras paras parmāṇ. ||4||
Guru Ram Dass blessed Arjan Dev, who touching the Philosopher's stone, became acceptable.​

6. As has already been explained to you as clearly as is possible by Chaz Ji, and that you have quoted to us yourself - the Creator is in the creation and the creation is in the Creator. Sikhi teaches us that it is entirely possible for us to remove the veil of illusion that makes us think we are separate from God, and realise God here-and-now. The shabad is saying that Guru Arjun Sahib Ji achieved that.

Are you going to continue handing us single tuks?

 

[Shaheen]

May I suggest to the admin that if one is to quote the whole or a big chunk of a page, then the threads will become unduly populated? People can easily check the whole page or pages related. The selective quote I give are supposed to direct you to the source. I know, I am being warned. Have I misquoted anything so far?

Summary: My recommendation is to let the non-Sikhs quote selectively. The Sikhs are supposed to find it easier to check the source.

 

[Original]

Clarifications may not be achieved without asking questions and testing our understanding.

..hence, faith, which constitutes belief and that in turn is classified as religion [dharm], become a Sikh [student] therefore, all will be revealed through the "word" [shabd]. Pls don't take it the wrong way for the house of Nanak sees all as "one", doesn't matter whether you're a Christain, Muslem or other, all creation is the product of the one - gloss it up how you like. Besides, the spiritual base of all different faiths speaks of the one as, word, logos, holy ghost, spirit [Christainity], akash bani, ram nam, ram dhun [Hinduism], kalma'n, banga 'ul ismani [Islam], dhur ki bani, anhad shabd [Sikh] and nirvana [Buddhaism]. Why don't you look within Quran Sharif Sahib for clarifications and understanding and then perhaps share it with us rather than unnecessarily going over to the neighbouring land when the same crop can be harvested at home.

This may appear as interrogations

...you're welcome, but it does get boring coz it's one's personal belief and really, hasn't an objective testing.

You are free to interrogate me, for a man of faith should be prepared to go through a bit of tests in his life.

..I'm afraid my Guru has spared me all the running around for Allah the wonderful, benevloent, merciful is enshrined within SGGSJ, but thanks all the same. Our Guru's went through all the tests of time and handed down to us a system, an eithical system known as the three pillars, that is, Vand Shuk [share], Kirit Kar [industrious disposition] and Nam Jap [remembrance of Allah].

If you are upon the true guidance of the Gurus, then you need not fear.

The word fear is not in the Sikh's vocab, history stands testamont, if anything, it is the fear of doing wrong to another.

If there is any agenda, that will perhaps be,

...and, what would that be ?

to please the Lord we are supposed to believe in.

...our Lord is one, see above !

The unity of mankind could be achieved if they agree on worshipping the true God,

...and, that would mean, the lions with their own lion god, the monkeys their monkey god, and the rest of creation likewise would to their only perception/conception would worship their own God, naturally. Similarily the case, with the differences races of man, each like the lions n the monkeys would want to advance their very own for why another with which they cannot identify [culture, environment and biological]

 

[Searching]

The unity of mankind could be achieved if they agree on worshipping the true God

In an Utopian world only. Sadly utopian world does not exist. For example we see Muslims like shia, sunni, ahamadi etc fighting and killing each other on a regular basis despite all them believing in the same God.
That is where Sikhi differs. We believe there can be different routs that can lead to the same destination. We dont say that the whole world needs to follow Sikhism for there to be peace. This very statement is violent according to me.

 

[Original]

The unity of mankind could be achieved if they agree on worshipping the true God, not through worshipping His incarnations,

..,.sorry, I continue on from post #46...what I wanted to say was, can true God be found outside in images and artifacts, for if that'd be the case then the Lions will claim their's to be the true God and the Monkeys theirs, where will it end? Answer is NO ! Divine Reality is transcendental full stop. What Guru Nanak did, he conceptualised Sargun [subjective, with attributes] and Nirgun [objective, without attributes] taking into account humanistic level and spiritual level link road for the separated soul [subjective part of the objective being] to be able to return and become whole. The Guru in form [Nanak for example] is fundamental and primary because it is through the form will one culminate into the formlessness [chautha pad, 4th state of consciousness]. That is to say, the ideology is, if the form is found to be beautiful, majestic, kind, virtuous, great, wonderful, generous, magiucal and the rest, than what of the hand that has created such a form, surely, ineffable. Modern Sikhism does not believe per se in "worshipping", but in performance virtues and moral virtues, that is, grit, self-control, resilience and honesty, compassion and respect, respectively, which are vital for society to thrive.

Does not SGGS insist that true guidance can only be found through the Gurus?

Absolutely ! Yes, the Gurus are the "conductors" through which flows the "energy" and it is energy [shabd] within which is Guru. It is not the copper pipes that makes the radiators hot but the water flowing through them and likewise the jewellery box isn't of any value but the jewels inside the box. And, similarily, Nanak and the Guru's were connecting masses not with their physical bodies but with their inner "nam" substance.

 

[chazSingh]

My apologies for disagreeing. SGGS states otherwise:
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. (SGGS p1407)

What kind of birth are you thinking?...could it be birth of 'your true self'...birth of higher consciousness...birth of inner sight....birth of awareness...birth of awakening...birth of light of God (ocean) into waves (gurus)...a person blind to the existence of God within them...then all of a sudden the experience of God takes place...a new person is born...a person who now know the truth...who now lives knowing this truth...

A person overcomes bullying...this brings about the birth of a new person...a stronger more resilient person ...

you need to contemplate more with an open mind my friend ...this is beautiful poetry. ..the 'birth' of something can be in so many different and beautiful ways...

God is already here...everywhere. ..the birth is in the awakening of that experience and knowledge...what a beautiful birth that would be...

 

[Original]

What does this actually mean? You lose me with your sesquipedalianism.

I'm sorry, at times its necessary to say "consolidate" rather than, say, "group them together" for want of space n time - you follow ? Anyway, ontology v theology is humongous so I'll try n cut corners to get you on board to consider them as treatise.

Let us go back to Sultanpur Lodhi, place of Nanak's mystical experience where he had 121 with AP - dargah parmeshar ki. Similar experiences are recorded for Muhammed with Angel Gabriel, Moses n the burning bush, Buddha n the banyan tree, Saint Paul on the road to Damascus, all this, underpins their ideologies and systems of belief.

Nanak walked out of the Kali Bein [rivulet] towards where Bhai Mardana was seated. Everyone could see that Nanak made a beckoning sign with his index finger sticking out of the clinched fist of his raised arm, signalling, "1".

"God is neither Hindu nor Muslim, but is 1" said Nanak .........as he stood before Bhai Mardana - hence the figure 1, Ik on kar, a prefix to what is otherwise, A U M [pronounced OM].

Question : why a numerical concept and not a linguistic?

I'd like you to have a think as to why Baba Ji Nanak chose 1 over "one". This will pave way to get on board his train of thought, bearing in mind, he was an educated man and new what he was doing in terms of conceptualisation.

 

[Shaheen]

Modern Sikhism does not believe per se in "worshipping", but in performance virtues and moral virtues, that is, grit, self-control, resilience and honesty, compassion and respect, respectively, which are vital for society to thrive.

The instruction of the Gurus suggest otherwise, ie worship you Lord forever and ever (page 49 SGGS):

ਸੰਤਾ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਬਖਸਿੰਦੁ ॥
संता संगति मनि वसै प्रभु प्रीतमु बखसिंदु ॥
Sanṯā sangaṯ man vasai parabẖ parīṯam bakẖsinḏ.
In the Society of the Saints, God, the Beloved, the Forgiver, comes to dwell within the mind.
ਜਿਨਿ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਜ ਨਰਿੰਦੁ ॥੨॥
जिनि सेविआ प्रभु आपणा सोई राज नरिंदु ॥२॥
Jin sevi▫ā parabẖ āpṇā so▫ī rāj narinḏ. ||2||
One who has served his God is the emperor of kings||2||
ਅਉਸਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਗੁਣ ਰਮਣ ਜਿਤੁ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਜਨ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
अउसरि हरि जसु गुण रमण जितु कोटि मजन इसनानु ॥
A▫osar har jas guṇ ramaṇ jiṯ kot majan isnān.
This is the time to speak and sing the Praise and the Glory of God, which brings the merit of millions of cleansing and purifying baths.
ਰਸਨਾ ਉਚਰੈ ਗੁਣਵਤੀ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪੁਜੈ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
रसना उचरै गुणवती कोइ न पुजै दानु ॥
Rasnā ucẖrai guṇvaṯī ko▫e na pujai ḏān.
The tongue which chants these Praises is worthy; there is no charity equal to this.
ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਧਾਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਦਇਆਲ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨੁ ॥
द्रिसटि धारि मनि तनि वसै दइआल पुरखु मिहरवानु ॥
Ḏarisat ḏẖār man ṯan vasai ḏa▫i▫āl purakẖ miharvān.
Blessing us with His Glance of Grace, the Kind and Compassionate, All-powerful Lord comes to dwell within the mind and body.
ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਧਨੁ ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਹਉ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
जीउ पिंडु धनु तिस दा हउ सदा सदा कुरबानु ॥३॥
Jī▫o pind ḏẖan ṯis ḏā ha▫o saḏā saḏā kurbān. ||3||
My soul, body and wealth are His. Forever and ever, I am a sacrifice to Him. ||3||
ਮਿਲਿਆ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਛੁੜੈ ਜੋ ਮੇਲਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥
मिलिआ कदे न विछुड़ै जो मेलिआ करतारि ॥
Mili▫ā kaḏe na vicẖẖuṛai jo meli▫ā karṯār.
One whom the Creator Lord has met and joined to Himself shall never again be separated.
ਦਾਸਾ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਟਿਆ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰਿ ॥
दासा के बंधन कटिआ साचै सिरजणहारि ॥
Ḏāsā ke banḏẖan kati▫ā sācẖai sirjaṇhār.
The True Creator Lord breaks the bonds of His slave.
ਭੂਲਾ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਇਓਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਅਵਗੁਣ ਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
भूला मारगि पाइओनु गुण अवगुण न बीचारि ॥
Bẖūlā mārag pā▫i▫on guṇ avguṇ na bīcẖār.
The doubter has been put back on the path; his merits and demerits have not been considered.
ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਰਣਾਗਤੀ ਜਿ ਸਗਲ ਘਟਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੧੮॥੮੮॥
नानक तिसु सरणागती जि सगल घटा आधारु ॥४॥१८॥८८॥
Nānak ṯis sarṇāgaṯī jė sagal gẖatā āḏẖār. ||4||18||88||
Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the One who is the Support of every heart. ||4||18||88||
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ५ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
ਰਸਨਾ ਸਚਾ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
रसना सचा सिमरीऐ मनु तनु निरमलु होइ ॥
Rasnā sacẖā simrī▫ai man ṯan nirmal ho▫e.
With your tongue, repeat the True Name, and your mind and body shall become pure.
ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਾਕ ਅਗਲੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
मात पिता साक अगले तिसु बिनु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Māṯ piṯā sāk agle ṯis bin avar na ko▫e.
Your mother and father and all your relations-without Him, there are none at all.
ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਜੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਚਸਾ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥
मिहर करे जे आपणी चसा न विसरै सोइ ॥१॥
Mihar kare je āpṇī cẖasā na visrai so▫e. ||1||
If God Himself bestows His Mercy, then He is not forgotten, even for an instant. ||1||
ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੇਵਿ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਾਸੁ ॥
मन मेरे साचा सेवि जिचरु सासु ॥
Man mere sācẖā sev jicẖar sās.
O my mind, serve the True One, as long as you have the breath of life.
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਚੇ ਸਭ ਕੂੜੁ ਹੈ ਅੰਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
बिनु सचे सभ कूड़ु है अंते होइ बिनासु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Bin sacẖe sabẖ kūṛ hai anṯe ho▫e binās. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Without the True One, everything is false; in the end, all shall perish. ||1||Pause||
ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
साहिबु मेरा निरमला तिसु बिनु रहणु न जाइ ॥
Sāhib merā nirmalā ṯis bin rahaṇ na jā▫e.
My Lord and Master is Immaculate and Pure; without Him, I cannot even survive.
ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਭੁਖ ਅਤਿ ਅਗਲੀ ਕੋਈ ਆਣਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮਾਇ ॥
मेरै मनि तनि भुख अति अगली कोई आणि मिलावै माइ ॥
Merai man ṯan bẖukẖ aṯ aglī ko▫ī āṇ milāvai mā▫e.
Within my mind and body, there is such a great hunger; if only someone would come and unite me with Him, O my mother!
ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾ ਭਾਲੀਆ ਸਹ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥
चारे कुंडा भालीआ सह बिनु अवरु न जाइ ॥२॥
Cẖāre kundā bẖālī▫ā sah bin avar na jā▫e. ||2||
I have searched the four corners of the world-without our Husband Lord, there is no other place of rest. ||2||
ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੋ ਮੇਲੇ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
तिसु आगै अरदासि करि जो मेले करतारु ॥
Ŧis āgai arḏās kar jo mele karṯār.
Offer your prayers to Him, who shall unite you with the Creator.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੁ ॥
सतिगुरु दाता नाम का पूरा जिसु भंडारु ॥
Saṯgur ḏāṯā nām kā pūrā jis bẖandār.
The True Guru is the Giver of the Naam; His Treasure is perfect and overflowing.
ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
सदा सदा सालाहीऐ अंतु न पारावारु ॥३॥
Saḏā saḏā salāhī▫ai anṯ na pārāvār. ||3||
Forever and ever, praise the One, who has no end or limitation. ||3||
ਪਰਵਦਗਾਰੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਚਲਤ ਅਨੇਕ ॥
परवदगारु सालाहीऐ जिस दे चलत अनेक ॥
Parvarḏagār salāhī▫ai jis ḏe cẖalaṯ anek.
Praise God, the Nurturer and Cherisher; His Wondrous Ways are unlimited.
ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਆਰਾਧੀਐ ਏਹਾ ਮਤਿ ਵਿਸੇਖ ॥
सदा सदा आराधीऐ एहा मति विसेख ॥
Saḏā saḏā ārāḏẖī▫ai ehā maṯ visekẖ.
Forever and ever, worship and adore Him; this is the most wonderful wisdom.
ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਗੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੇਖ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੮੯॥
मनि तनि मिठा तिसु लगै जिसु मसतकि नानक लेख ॥४॥१९॥८९॥
Man ṯan miṯẖā ṯis lagai jis masṯak Nānak lekẖ. ||4||19||89||
O Nanak, God's Flavor is sweet to the minds and bodies of those who have such blessed destiny written on their foreheads. ||4||19||89||
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ५ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
ਸੰਤ ਜਨਹੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥
संत जनहु मिलि भाईहो सचा नामु समालि ॥
Sanṯ janhu mil bẖā▫īho sacẖā nām samāl.
Meet with the humble Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, and contemplate the True Name.
ਤੋਸਾ ਬੰਧਹੁ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
तोसा बंधहु जीअ का ऐथै ओथै नालि ॥
Ŧosā banḏẖhu jī▫a kā aithai othai nāl.
For the journey of the soul, gather those supplies which will go with you here and hereafter.
ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਪਣੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿ ॥
गुर पूरे ते पाईऐ अपणी नदरि निहालि ॥
Gur pūre ṯe pā▫ī▫ai apṇī naḏar nihāl.
These are obtained from the Perfect Guru, when God bestows His Glance of Grace.
ਕਰਮਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਹੋਇ ਦਇਆਲੁ ॥੧॥
करमि परापति तिसु होवै जिस नो होइ दइआलु ॥१॥
Karam parāpaṯ ṯis hovai jis no hou▫e ḏa▫i▫āl. ||1||
Those unto whom He is Merciful, receive His Grace. ||1||
ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
मेरे मन गुर जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥
Mere man gur jevad avar na ko▫e.
O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru.
ਦੂਜਾ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਕੋ ਸੁਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੇਲੇ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
दूजा थाउ न को सुझै गुर मेले सचु सोइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ḏūjā thā▫o na ko sujẖai gur mele sacẖ so▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||
ਸਗਲ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਿਲੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਡਿਠਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
सगल पदारथ तिसु मिले जिनि गुरु डिठा जाइ ॥
Sagal paḏārath ṯis mile jin gur diṯẖā jā▫e.
Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures.
ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਮਨੁ ਲਗਾ ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਮਾਇ ॥
गुर चरणी जिन मनु लगा से वडभागी माइ ॥
Gur cẖarṇī jin man lagā se vadbẖāgī mā▫e.
Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother.
ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
गुरु दाता समरथु गुरु गुरु सभ महि रहिआ समाइ ॥
Gur ḏāṯā samrath gur gur sabẖ mėh rahi▫ā samā▫e.
The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਡੁਬਦਾ ਲਏ ਤਰਾਇ ॥੨॥
गुरु परमेसरु पारब्रहमु गुरु डुबदा लए तराइ ॥२॥
Gur parmesar pārbarahm gur dubḏā la▫e ṯarā▫e. ||2||
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||
ਕਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥੁ ॥
कितु मुखि गुरु सालाहीऐ करण कारण समरथु ॥
Kiṯ mukẖ gur salāhī▫ai karaṇ kāraṇ samrath.
How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?
ਸੇ ਮਥੇ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਰਹੇ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਹਥੁ ॥
से मथे निहचल रहे जिन गुरि धारिआ हथु ॥
Se mathe nihcẖal rahe jin gur ḏẖāri▫ā hath.
Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.
ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਆਲਿਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਾ ਪਥੁ ॥
गुरि अम्रित नामु पीआलिआ जनम मरन का पथु ॥
Gur amriṯ nām pī▫āli▫ā janam maran kā path.
The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਦੁਖ ਲਥੁ ॥੩॥
गुरु परमेसरु सेविआ भै भंजनु दुख लथु ॥३॥
Gur parmesar sevi▫ā bẖai bẖanjan ḏukẖ lath. ||3||
I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3||

 

[Shaheen]

What kind of birth are you thinking?...could it be birth of 'your true self'...birth of higher consciousness...birth of inner sight....birth of awareness...birth of awakening...birth of light of God (ocean) into waves (gurus)...a person blind to the existence of God within them...then all of a sudden the experience of God takes place...a new person is born...a person who now know the truth...who now lives knowing this truth...

I don't believe God takes birth in anything or anyone in any form whatsoever. This is a wrong concept of God and downdrades Him - perhaps the very opposite of what one may intend. I understand, this is what you believe eventhough SGGS forbids that or a form of it in another place (please see page 1136. Pasting a whole page as may be required will take too much space) - thus contradictory in my humble opinion.

Moreover, I disagree with such notion on the rational basis too (I know a Sikhi is not supposed to be a rational being). It is my understanding on the basis of a statement from Guru Nanak ji that intellect is a drunken elephant and produces utter lies (please see page 351 of SGGS). I am (kind of ) using a Harvard system of referencing.

I don't intend to disrespect your beliefs or Gurus. Peace!

 

[Ishna]

Brother Shaheen Ji, thank you for taking the time to paste the whole page. I have taken your point regarding pasting of long shabads, and pasting of any shabads by new Sikhs or non-Sikhs, and will write some easy tips about it that we can link to in our Terms of Service to make it easier for everyone.

Regarding the page you posted, this isn't the best example as the translation is off. This translation is far more accurate, of the tuk (sentence) in question:

ਪਰਵਦਗਾਰੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਚਲਤ ਅਨੇਕ ॥
Parvarḏagār salāhī▫ai jis ḏe cẖalaṯ anek.
Sing thou the praises of the Nurturer, manifold are whose worderous plays.

ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਆਰਾਧੀਐ ਏਹਾ ਮਤਿ ਵਿਸੇਖ ॥
Saḏā saḏā ārāḏẖī▫ai ehā maṯ visekẖ.
Ever and ever meditate on God. This alone is the excellent wisdom.

ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਗੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੇਖ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੮੯॥
Man ṯan miṯẖā ṯis lagai jis masṯak Nānak lekẖ. ||4||19||89||
Nanak, the Lord flavours sweet to the mind and body of him, who has good luck recorded on his brow.
​

The words are:

Sadaa Sadaa - forever forever
Aaraadeeay - meditate (on God)
Eyhaa - this
Mat - teaching/wisdom/understanding/way
Visaykh - special​

Please forgive my mistakes as I am only a base learner in the language.

I'm sure there are more appropriate examples where a word for 'worship' is actually used, though. I'll find one for you.

Gurufateh

​

 

[Ishna]

This shabad not only talks about worship, but should give you more insight into the Sikh perspective more generally. It is from panna 87:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
Salok mėhlā 3.
Shalok, Third Mehl:

ਆਤਮਾ ਦੇਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
Āṯmā ḏe▫o pūjī▫ai gur kai sahj subẖā▫e.
Worship the Divine, Supreme Soul, with the intuitive peace and poise of the Guru.

ਆਤਮੇ ਨੋ ਆਤਮੇ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਪਰਚਾ ਪਾਇ ॥
Āṯme no āṯme ḏī parṯīṯ ho▫e ṯā gẖar hī parcẖā pā▫e.
If the individual soul has faith in the Supreme Soul, then it shall obtain realization within its own home.

ਆਤਮਾ ਅਡੋਲੁ ਨ ਡੋਲਈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
Āṯmā adol na dol▫ī gur kai bẖā▫e subẖā▫e.
The soul becomes steady, and does not waver, by the natural inclination of the Guru's Loving Will.

ਗੁਰ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
Gur viṇ sahj na āvī lobẖ mail na vicẖahu jā▫e.
Without the Guru, intuitive wisdom does not come, and the filth of greed does not depart from within.

ਖਿਨੁ ਪਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਭ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ॥
Kẖin pal har nām man vasai sabẖ aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nā▫e.
If the Lord's Name abides within the mind, for a moment, even for an instant, it is like bathing at all the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

ਸਚੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
Sacẖe mail na lag▫ī mal lāgai ḏūjai bẖā▫e.
Filth does not stick to those who are true, but filth attaches itself to those who love duality.

ਧੋਤੀ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਜੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ॥
Ḏẖoṯī mūl na uṯrai je aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath nā▫e.
This filth cannot be washed off, even by bathing at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਸਭੁ ਦੁਖੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
Manmukẖ karam kare ahaʼnkārī sabẖ ḏukẖo ḏukẖ kamā▫e.
The self-willed manmukh does deeds in egotism; he earns only pain and more pain.

ਨਾਨਕ ਮੈਲਾ ਊਜਲੁ ਤਾ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥
Nānak mailā ūjal ṯā thī▫ai jā saṯgur māhi samā▫e. ||1||
O Nanak, the filthy ones become clean only when they meet and surrender to the True Guru. ||1||​

FYI, Sikhs worship Ik Onkar by remembering It as much as they can, and expressing some of It's qualities by being virtuous, as Original bhaji has already said.

Further to worship, this verse is from a much larger shabad on panna 75, which illustrates clear as daylight the position of Sikhs regarding "worship":

ਦੂਜੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਭਰਿ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਮੈ ਮਤਿ ॥
Ḏūjai pahrai raiṇ kai vaṇjāri▫ā miṯrā bẖar joban mai maṯ.
In the second watch of the night, O my merchant friend, you are intoxicated with the wine of youth and beauty.

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚਿਤਿ ॥
Ahinis kām vi▫āpi▫ā vaṇjāri▫ā miṯrā anḏẖule nām na cẖiṯ.
Day and night, you are engrossed in sexual desire, O my merchant friend, and your consciousness is blind to the Naam.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਰਸ ਕਸ ਮੀਠੇ ॥
Rām nām gẖat anṯar nāhī hor jāṇai ras kas mīṯẖe.
The Lord's Name is not within your heart, but all sorts of other tastes seem sweet to you.

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰਹੁਗੇ ਝੂਠੇ ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān guṇ sanjam nāhī janam marhuge jẖūṯẖe.
You have no wisdom at all, no meditation, no virtue or self-discipline; in falsehood, you are caught in the cycle of birth and death.

ਤੀਰਥ ਵਰਤ ਸੁਚਿ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
Ŧirath varaṯ sucẖ sanjam nāhī karam ḏẖaram nahī pūjā.
Pilgrimages, fasts, purification and self-discipline are of no use, nor are rituals, religious ceremonies or empty worship.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥
Nānak bẖā▫e bẖagaṯ nisṯārā ḏubiḏẖā vi▫āpai ḏūjā. ||2||
O Nanak, emancipation comes only by loving devotional worship; through duality, people are engrossed in duality. ||2||​

"Loving devotional worship" is a misnomer, I believe. The word being translated is 'bhagat(i)' which, as I understand it, is more of loving, complete devotion and service. It is not 'worship' as in ritual offerings, or praying at certain times. It is more like complete immersion of the self into the object of devotion.

Again, please forgive my errors in understanding.

 

[Ishna]

I don't believe God takes birth in anything or anyone in any form whatsoever. This is a wrong concept of God and downdrades Him - perhaps the very opposite of what one may intend. I understand, this is what you believe eventhough SGGS forbids that or a form of it in another place (please see page 1136. Pasting a whole page as may be required will take too much space) - thus contradictory in my humble opinion.

This is because Islam teaches that God exists in some other place - He is totally separate from His creation, watching it closely and giving out reward and punishment to His subjects. This is monotheism the way a lay person would understand it.

Sikhi, on the other hand, demonstrates that the Creator is always with us, within us, feels our pain and our happiness, and when we are attuned to It, we can radiate Its qualities accessible to us humans by being compassionate, loving, kind, and trying to see the world as the Creator sees it through our eyes - as one beautiful symphonic orchestration. We can experience the Creator here and now - we don't have to wait until we die.

I don't understand how this downgrades the Creator in any way. In fact, it makes more sense to me, that we would be made up of Godstuff. If we aren't within God, then that means that God actually resides in another physical place. That doesn't makes sense to me.

Moreover, I disagree with such notion on the rational basis too (I know a Sikhi is not supposed to be a rational being).

If you intend no disrespect (as you said in your sign-off), then perhaps you could explain to me what you meant by 'sikhi is not supposed to be a rational being'? Because that kinda sounds like you're calling us irrational. Please clarify.

It is my understanding on the basis of a statement from Guru Nanak ji that intellect is a drunken elephant and produces utter lies (please see page 351 of SGGS). I am (kind of ) using a Harvard system of referencing.

*facepalm* That tuk is out of context and stripped of its poetic frame of reference.

The elephant is often used as a metaphor for egotism. If you read the entire shabad, you will see that Guru Sahib is illustrating something along the lines of 'My deluded inclination is to babble and talk from a place of egotism (which is false), instead of being connected to God and expressing Its Will instead of my own misguided one'.

I offer you the whole verse (not even the whole shabad) for you to contemplate, with Guru's grace:

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਮਤਾਗਲੁ ਮਤਾ ॥
Man kī maṯ maṯāgal maṯā.
The intellect of the mind is like a drunken elephant.

ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਖਤੋ ਖਤਾ ॥
Jo kicẖẖ bolī▫ai sabẖ kẖaṯo kẖaṯā.
Whatever one utters is totally false, the most false of the false.

ਕਿਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਲੈ ਕੀਚੈ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥
Ki▫ā muhu lai kīcẖai arḏās.
So what face should we put on to offer our prayer (dua)

ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਦੁਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੨॥
Pāp punn ḏu▫e sākẖī pās. ||2||
when both virtue and vice are close at hand as witnesses? ||2||​

Also, my last question to you: Where are you getting all the Gurbani quotes from?

Gurufateh

 

[Harry Haller]

I don't believe God takes birth in anything or anyone in any form whatsoever.

and that is your right, you have a right to believe and follow what you wish

This is a wrong concept of God and downdrades Him - perhaps the very opposite of what one may intend

You do not however have the right to carte blanche know what is and what is not a wrong concept of God and impose it on another, if you are talking about Allah, then the best place to debate that would probably not be a Sikh forum. If in Islam God is in heaven, and in Sikhism, God is everywhere, is there any point in any debate on the matter?

Moreover, I disagree with such notion on the rational basis too

Please explain your rationality

It is my understanding on the basis of a statement from Guru Nanak ji that intellect is a drunken elephant and produces utter lies (please see page 351 of SGGS). I am (kind of ) using a Harvard system of referencing.

Is your rationality finding one liners to support your argument?

I don't intend to disrespect your beliefs or Gurus. Peace!

Islam is a different ball game to Sikhism, its a bit like a football fan writing on a rugby forum about football, what is the point? all we will ever conclude is that football is football, and rugby is rugby, I fail to see what your questions are trying to achieve

 

[Harry Haller]

The unity of mankind could be achieved if they agree on worshipping the true God, not through worshipping His incarnations, for which different people have their own versions - each conflicting with other. Does not SGGS insist that true guidance can only be found through the Gurus?

Well if you can show me a religion where there is no inner conflicting, and no contradictions through different sects, then I would be very interested.

Would you say there is unity in Islam?

 

[Shaheen]

In reply to Ishna:

Thank you for reading and perhaps taking into consideration my suggestion regarding non-Sikh's obligation to quote the whole range of verses should they wish to quote from the SGGS.

I want to keep my replies short and this is how I conduct my discussion with people.

1) On the issue of intellect being like a drunken elephant. We have disagreed on the understanding. I still understand the message in its most apparent (like a Muslim) and you seem to think, it talks about ego. My understanding that a Sikh person is not supposed to use his intellect is based on this message. You are free to disagree and if the Sikh people are supposed to use their intellect (as a human being is supposed to), that is well and good.

2) On the issue of Puja (worship) and Aradey (supplication, dua, invocation) - When one does an act of aradey, one is doing an act of worship. This is the Islamic position. As the Guru says, do aradey forever and forever and I agree with him.

3) My sources are two at the moment. I have the English translation of the SGGS by
Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa MD (publisher: Hand Made Books, Tuscon USA). Also the following website:

http://www.srigranth.org

 

[Shaheen]

You do not however have the right to carte blanche know what is and what is not a wrong concept of God and impose it on another, if you are talking about Allah, then the best place to debate that would probably not be a Sikh forum. If in Islam God is in heaven, and in Sikhism, God is everywhere, is there any point in any debate on the matter?

People differ in various aspects of life, be it religious or other. Husbands and wives differ almost everyday. I make comments based on my understandings and beliefs and by reading certain texts. I do so, not just on religious affairs, but others too. I don't have any power to impose anything on others, even to my own family. Of course, you are free to lead your life as you please. This is the 'Interfaith' section of the forums, hence I get the impression that my comments will be accommodated. If you are the owner of the forums, you can exercise your right to exclude me. I don't get paid by any human being for what I do. In my personal life, I hardly take any orders from other human beings as I am self-employed.

Peace!

 

[Harry Haller]

People differ in various aspects of life, be it religious or other. Husbands and wives differ almost everyday. I make comments based on my understandings and beliefs and by reading certain texts. I do so, not just on religious affairs, but others too. I don't have any power to impose anything on others, even to my own family. Of course, you are free to lead your life as you please. This is the 'Interfaith' section of the forums, hence I get the impression that my comments will be accommodated. If you are the owner of the forums, you can exercise your right to exclude me. I don't get paid by any human being for what I do. In my personal life, I hardly take any orders from other human beings as I am self-employed.

Peace!

I have no wish to exclude anyone, nor do I have any power to do so, if you wish to debate that oranges are apples, I wish you well in your journey