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Atheism Live Free

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by ffc, Jun 12, 2011.

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  1. ffc

    ffc
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    Well, for an introduction, I am a student of computer sciences in punjab.
    Right from my childhood, i have been taught by parents about sikhism and stuff about it. Over the years, many incidents and learnings have made me sure of the fact that religion is pointless to say the least.

    Since last couple of years i have learnt about some other religions, seen documentaries on atheism and read excerpts from the satanic bible.
    All i believe is religious organizations thrive on the fact that people have a fear of the unknown and they need a hope rather faith in this case to solve their problems.

    They do not see the point in living according to will. My parents hardly have a clue about me being an atheist and i have not tried to tell them as it would lead to hurting them but i respect them and am following some sikh stuff as much as i can bear.

    I just joined this network for this cause, to let everyone be aware that there is no god looking at you from up there wanting you to chant his name everytime you do some sin. Just be morally justified and do what suits you or you feel comfortable with just until it doesn't hurt others.

    - Free From Chaos
     
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  3. Ishna

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    Hi Free Fromn Chaos Ji, welcome to the forum.

    I'm glad you seem to have found your spiritual place in the world but sad also that the beauty of Sikhi isn't visible to you. Each to their own.

    I find it interesting you mention the Satanic Bible -- why? It is as religious as any other bible (I've read it). Is it relevant to your atheism? Or did you mention it for shock value?

    You are right in that most people have fear of the unknown, and faith helps them deal with that. Fear of the unknown, in my opinion, would have been an important aid for evolving humans to have. You can see the development of religion if you trace history and the earliest religions are BASED on fear of the unknown - fear that you won't slay the antelope vital for your food so you perform rituals to the God of the Hunt for a successful endeavour. Then with the birth of agriculture you see a further development in religion, it's become more complex mirroring the society of the time, and now rituals are held to the gods of rain and fertility (mm, sex magic! haha).

    My view is that religion hasn't stopped evolving. Sikhi, being one of the world's youngest religions, is an evolution. That's not to say the older religions have no value, however Sikhi is not based on fear and sin as most of the others are. That would become evident to you if you took the time to study it independently and with an open mind.

    Most of us joined this network for the Sikh cause, so we're pretty sold on the concept of Waheguru.

    I would agree with your statement "there is no god looking at your from up there wanting you to chant his name" because that is not the Sikh understanding of God. If you think it is, then you don't understand Sikhism and I recommend exploring some of the links available in the 'New to Sikhism' part of the forum.

    I'm saddened by your remark "wanting you to chant his name evertime you do some sin" because sin is also not a concept found in Sikhi. This is basic stuff and you should know it before coming to a Sikh forum and declaring we've got it wrong. That's like me going to an architect conference and telling them all they can't build anything because their square-rulers are not calibrated at 90 degree angles.
     
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  4. Kanwaljit Singh

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    I tell you that there is nothing like computer science. Now would you leave your college or course? No, you would continue on what you are leaning to realize Truth yourself.

    If you would have given this time of yours to Guru Granth Sahib, you might have got some insight.

    I am glad to know you are free of such fear!

    Whose will? You yourself are living according to your parent's will? You are full of falsehood.

    You are correct. I support your cause. God is not sitting up in the sky. He is in every quantum of space. He does not know no sin. God has not asked but I want to chant His Name and thank him every moment for the life he has given me, my parents and my friends. I wish I can be morally correct all the time and don't hurt others.
     
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  5. ffc

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    @Ishna
    First of all, yes the satanic bible is relevant to atheism as it does not tell you to do the so called "simran" and stuff. Just live free and obey the following basic rules of humanity:
    1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
    2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
    3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
    4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
    5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
    6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
    7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
    8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
    9. Do not harm little children.
    10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
    11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

    Deleted personally insulting comment directed at another member.

    Yes i mentioned looking from up there and thats because every early religion used this version and all thanks to you, sikhi is an evolved version. And yes i agree with you on atleast one point, you're sold on the concept of waheguru.
    And what are you talking about? No concept of sin in sikhism? Then what do you call a person killing people on the streets?
    I doubt that sikhism doesn't classify that as a grave sin.

    admin note: The Judaeo Christian concept of sin is not part of Sikhi.


    @Kanwaljit Singh
    Im not surprised with you aggressively protecting the faith after seeing your picture that portrays a blurred nihang. I can remember a person wearing the dress, trying to separate the country, taking the holy scripture in hand and blaming the government for stereotyping.

    And wow that was so intelligent, "computer science doesn't exist", i am again not surprised with it. Believers have such an extraordinary sense of logic.
    Deleted an insulting innuendo directed at another forum member. I know its there. It is not based on some things someone said and told you to believe. It actually is tangible.

    I am kind of wondering why i didn't give more time to other scriptures like biographies of very successful people who are not blinded by faith.

    I am very sorry to disappoint you but yes, i do not know of any fear.

    Yeah, that's what you do, find an ambiguity in people words. You know what, you gotta give priorities to people who care for you. I completely disagree to the 'Moh' fact that you should not give priority to human relationships over god. You know what that makes you? Self-indulgent!

    Guess what, surprise, he did ask you, Deleted a statement that undermines the SGGS on a Sikh forum.


    And please, only some logical people reply to the thread. Admin note: Anyone may reply to the thread who observes TOS and is a forum member. I want some atheists to come forward and discuss their views on atheism :

    "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people"
    -House

    On a second thought Mr spnadmin, why don't you come forward instead of appreciating others?
    Or you could simply block me and put my username on that wall of shame...like its broadcasted worldwide.

    -Free From Chaos
     
    #4 ffc, Jun 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2011
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Free From Chaos ji

    If you would like me to block you that certainly can be arranged. It goes along with something you posted: "relieving" a person of a burden if he "cries out to be relieved." I am however sorry that you have burdened yourself with so much anger. That I cannot help you with. Until you are ready and want to be relieved of it.

    Here is something I agree with. Much like our TOS

    Right now you are here, the lair is, Sikh Philosophy Network.

    As for
    So far I have had no reason to block you. Though I will shortly be deleting some of your comments. Keep in mind that you need to discuss issues not personalities. Everyone needs to remember, not just you, that membership at SPN does not mean we are providing you with a soapbox to peddle one's rants worldwide.

    As for coming forward...a person has to get up early in the morning to match me in a discussion about atheism. After all, I have been at the religion thing longer than most SPN members. I can argue either way. At this time I decline the invitation.
     
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  7. Ishna

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    FFC ji, it appears you've traded one set of religious rules for another.

    Then perhaps you should be visiting here: http://community.beliefnet.com/go/forum/view/43861/69999/Atheism__Secular_Philosophies because it seems strange to go to a religious forum to discuss non-religion. That's like going to the chocolate factory and asking for mince meat.

    And since you don't appear to want to discuss atheism with relation to Sikhism with any modicum of respect, I'm going to take my leave of this thread.

    Good luck to you.
     
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  8. Caspian

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    Just my 2 cents as a fellow atheist. But ditto on the whole satanic bible thing, you just traded one set of pointless religious rules for another.
     
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  9. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Its not a blurred Nihang, but a blurred me. You know think 'someone' was trying to separate the country? Did he personally suggest that to you? How do you know someone who died probably before you were born? And the way you talk about my dress, shows that you too are full of stereotyping.

    I am myself doing Masters in Computer Science from September :p but the comment I made, was just to tell you, that a 30 yr old person can not convince people to give up religion whose faithfuls have been there for 500 years.

    Let's see if that helps you in life.

    You will not go untested !

    Believing in God means destroying the notion of Self, so how can one be self indulgent?

    You didn't clear that in the first post so I replied.

    You don't believe in God. I believe in God. Why would you want to impose your reasoning on others, no matter how perfect it is? If you had been happy as an atheist, you would be sitting on a chair, cooling under a fan, reading news and enjoying your tea. But do you realize what you are doing?
     
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  10. Archived_member14

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    Dear FFC,


    I am not a Sikh, but come from a Buddhist understanding. As you know in Buddhism, there is no concept of God, but of course this does not make Buddhists atheists. I am guessing however, that you have issues with Buddhism as well, so I would like to discuss this with you. If you agree, please state what your concerns are.

    And although I suggest that we do not bring Sikhism into our discussion, I expect that by the time we finish, you'd not have such a negative impression about it as you do now.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  11. ffc

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    @Kanwaljit Singh
    You seem to me the typical faith protecting person with no sense of reason whatsoever. I am sorry to say that though. So i would not care to reply to you.

    @spnadmin
    I was looking for a person like you out there with some balanced reasoning sense. I'd like you to reply if possible.
    And yes i am in your lair hence i should not disrespect your beliefs but i couldn't find aa better way to identify sensible people.


    Unfortunately yes, i am full of anger. Reason, i have been praying right from when i was like 5 or 6 years old. Life has always brought me face to face with failure. I always got that guilty feeling that i have done something more, which again affected my productivity.
    And this is only the minor part of it. When i saw the suffering of people, not only my close ones, but also the ones that are completely strangers. I'd like to cite to a couple of examples:
    > With my parents i went to the home of some people known to my parents in ludhiana at the Bhaini Sahib. Those people were very nice but they had a daughter who is in kind of a coma since she like was 7 years old. She has frequent fits. She can't walk on her own, even sitting up needs help. All she can do by herself is lay down in bed. She is like 28 years old now. I want to ask, if this 'janam' is given to us by almighty to break the cycle of life and death, how is she supposed to do it? And why so much pain for her all due to no reason?

    > I have a classmate whose father was a police officer. He died on duty during mob fights surrounded by Ram Rahim's intolerable act. I know that he is a mere show off but why someone was deprived of her father in the name of religion?
    The latter is a major cause for me to get apart from the religious theory.

    I admire that you openly discuss about atheism.

    The major fact i don't understand is, what is the point of praying?
    And i kind of hate how some 'amritdhari' sikhs have a narrow mind scope here in punjab. So i had to discuss this here.

    @Ishna & Caspian
    Those aren't rules, those are just normal morally correct human behavior. If you can't follow that too, you'd better be off a dog or something.
     
  12. ffc

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    @Confused

    I did not mention anything about Buddhism explicitly and will not owing to the fact that i do not really know about it much. I am not here to hurt anyone's faith. Just clear some of mine doubts about Sikhism.
     
  13. spnadmin

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    ftc ji

    Thanks for being up front! :happykudi: I suppose that I will discuss atheism, and because you seem sincere in your request I will do so, but later in the day. Right now I am operating on less than 4 hours of sleep because of health problems. Forgive me for backing out just now.

    Before I go there I do want to look with you at some things you have said.




    I have nothing but feelings of hope for you on this point. When prayers seem to lead to constant failure, and a feeling of guilt for unseen and unknown moral failures, you are responding like the vast majority of people who have been fed a bad diet. Religion does not have to equal superstition. It frequently does because religion is one of the social structures that is used to regulate behavior, thought and feeling. The purpose of doing so is to manage individuals so that the "greater good" will be served. This has nothing to do with "religion" in the sense of re-connecting with something greater than yourself, what some would call spirituality and others call religion. It happens generation to generation in a mindless way...your elders do not even realize what they are doing because that is what was done to them. The giant step whether you are an atheist or something else is to come awake. It is a giant step to be awake when nearly everyone around you is sleeping. And lonely. So yes you become angry.

    It is your voice saying this. But you may have a huge future ahead of you as a man of faith. All of the great religious leaders, from Buddha to Guru Nanak to Jesus of Nazareth, came to their path because they were moved by the suffering of humanity. Read about their lives. Compassion for total strangers opened their hearts.


    Her suffering is the consequence of events unknown to me. The idea that this young woman's suffering is the result of transgressions in her own past life, is not a Sikh belief. Many Sikhs adhere to this idea because they have not been encouraged to tangle with what gurbani is actually teaching. Many other Sikhs adhere to the idea that the illness of a child is evidence of some transgression in the past life of one or the other parent. This too is not a Sikh belief. Karma is about cause and effect, but Guru Nanak gave us an understanding of karma that is radically different from the Brahmin point of view. We are not cleansing our karma by suffering on this earth. And we are not suffering on this earth because of dirty karma. That view of karma was put into motion hundreds of years ago to keep people in the lower varnas humbled to their sorry lives so that people in the higher varnas could stay at the top of the heap. That is what Guru Nanak tried to teach in a simple way, and his simple message is continually complicated by the rest of us.

    Why? For the "greater good." I say that in irony.

    He may have been killed in the name of religion, but in fact he was killed in the service of politics. Religion and politics in India are impossible to untangle. There is a good editorial on this site by someone who would probably understand all too well your frustration and anger.

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/people-and-opinion/35668-how-not-to-mix-religion-politics.html

    I would say, for now, don't pray. Don't try to find any point in praying at this time. I am serious. Prayer should be personal, private, and a comfort. Don't pray until you hear from your inner self that it is time for you to pray, and then you will know what your prayer needs to be. For some prayer is completely integrated in every breath they take and every action. That may be how it turns up for you.

    Don't hate these amritdhari They are victims as much as anything else. Find your way out of it, or you will become what you hate.

    Anger is a very strong emotion, and a necessary one. Anger is the emotion that can often motivate us to correct wrongs. It can transform the world. It is not always a bad thing, but it can be the moral and even physical death of you in large doses. If you become attached to it. Channel it. You are young enough to redirect all that anger into the energy needed to make a difference, if even for one hapless human being.

    Back to the beginning. You may surprise yourself one day. I read your words and I recognize so many spiritual voices who changed the world. May I live to see what you make of your hurt, anger and frustration.
     
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  14. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    ffc Ji

    "the uncompromising attitude is more indicative of an inner uncertainty than of deep conviction.The implacable stand is directed more against the doubt within than the assailant without."

    Hoffer
     
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  15. findingmyway

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    ffc ji,
    If there was no Sikhi, would those incidences have been any different? Nope, there would still be hardship, murder and destruction. Sikhi gives people the inner strength to deal with these things. It is a personal thing and it is a choice. To deny someone that choice is tyranny. There will only be harmony when people learn to respect each others decisions.
     
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  16. Annie

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    FFC ji,

    I grew up in a Christian (Catholic) family, going to Catholic schools and church. By the time I was 15 years old I had heard more than enough negativity, superstition and senseless rules, and refused to have any more part of it. I felt angry and confused, until I read this quote somewhere:

    It's not God I have a problem with; it's His fan club.

    I for one am glad that you do not adhere to a religion just because someone told you to. Also glad that you are studying the religions of the world. There are little diamonds of Truth hidden between the dogma, rules and superstitions of all those religions. By quietly listening to the universe and the innate knowledge that is deep inside you - more like a certain gut feeling than an emotion, you can find what rings true for you. I hope you find understanding and peace.
     
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  17. BhagatSingh

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    Lol

    You wish.... you wish there was 1 fan club.
     
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  18. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    Dear Annie

    Welcome

    I'm sorry to hear you have lost your faith in Christianity, although I'm Sikh I believe all major religions are true and have noble foundations, it's just that some religous people do not understand what it means to be religous.

    I feel more free now than when I did not believe, although I'm so lucky that I can't remember those free days as they were my saddest.

    The quote may mean that the Fan( short for Fanatic) is the problem.

    All the best
     
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  19. Annie

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    Thank you, Sinner Singh ji, but I"m not sorry. I have stronger faith in the creator than ever before. I am just more open to hearing other religions' opinions, to accept what sounds like Truth without worrying too much about what doesn't make sense. I have found a lot to like about Sikhi, Hinduism, and Judaism. But I did not mean to monopolize the thread. My apologies, FFC.
     
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  20. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Dear Annie, you may lose your faith in Christianity, but never lose your faith in Jesus Christ.
     
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  21. ballym

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    As ffc is talking , I would like to say:
    1. Girl referred in your post has fits of epilepsy most probably... just a medical condition... I had similar case in Punjab with a girl... she is cured and now doing a teaching job in a college.Her family also tried many things without making much efforts( they did try but gravitated towards non-medical treatments) to get medical tests done. You might say that your case is different, but you are not a doctor. Pl Force her family to take her to doctor, if not cured, go to CHD or Delhi/ Mumbai, keep trying. Do not sit at home or just go to pind doctor! Let me know, I can connect her family to this girl.
    2. death due to no fault of his.... just happens, you are non-believer, so just accept it. Religion would explain it by saying that it may for his benefit in next birth.
    3. Praying/ worship/simran brings focus and confidence. If YOU do not feel or realise so then that is not final judgement. Do you agree?.. or you are chief justice/ God?... and thereby a believer!
    4. Your rules are very loosely framed & are open to interpretations....
    Just follow one rule... have faith and act accordingly...
    Yyes this needs elaboration to the beginners but you can easily understand and interpret it. your rules itself indicate that you are a believer. Think deeply about your own rules.
     

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