Kala Afghana - An Adi Granth Purist

[Arvind]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

BabbarSher ji, I liked the way you are bringing out references from Gurubani to support the facts.

xylitol, As BabarSher pointed out,
"Peevo Pahul Khande Dhaar hoye janam Suhela...
but he also says in an earlier stanza:
Gur Simar Manayi Kalka, Khande ki Bela"

Do you still want to continue by contradicting above Gurmat?

Regards.

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

I was just wondering if you havent read these files against kalaafghana on internet


Kala-Afghana Uncovered !

http://www.khalsaalliance.org/kala.php

 

[plamba]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

I was just wondering if you havent read these files against kalaafghana on internet


Kala-Afghana Uncovered !

http://www.khalsaalliance.org/kala.php

Do you care to actually read and discuss something Kala Afghana has written or would you rather just dismiss him because others have done so?

I am ready and willing to participate in a discussion on Kala Afghana's writings.

Puneet Singh Lamba
Boston, MA
http://sikhtimes.com
339.221.1561

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Dear Plamba Ji

Yes I sincerely do give time to read them as an when I am free . And just to mention I am absolutely not against him Moreover I consider him good in a sense he is too worried about the panth and trying to do what ever he can but my present understanding the way and extent he is doing may not be absolutely right but I would like to know more about it and then arrive at final conclusion

Recently I was reading what he writes about dassam granth
he mention that as written in dassam granth caste of first guru as bedi and he then went on to discribe bedi duvedis trivedi chaturvedi based on the no of veds that have been read by particular caste

I personally have little knowledge about the csate but i happen to consult somw body and found that all these he is mentioning are brahmins by caste and bedi of guru nanak was quite different and infact khatri clan ( part kashatriya caste ) so i think kala afgana has become bit oversentive and egoistic ( considering himself as the only saviour of panth)over these issue of brahminism and really think every sikh to be too weak to deal with these problems

My personal view is that kala afghana is a learned scholar ( just like scientist and experts) who started with fighting with bhrahminism within sikhi and now is in middle of fighting sikhs it self
Believe me I feel sad over the issue and always pray thatt some how differences between such sikhs are resolved and they can work together in one direction

About reading kalla afghana what time I get free I try to read about gurbani ( as first preference ) and also read such topics but It could take me lot of time to read all of it but offcourse you can disscuss it with me and it is faster way out

Jatinder Singh

 

[Singhstah]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Okay lets see kala afghanas belifs, no amrit,no amritvela, no rehat.

lets see bhai randhir singh ji,bhai rama singh ji,sant jarnail singh ji,other damdami taksal jathedars,most importantly Guroo Ji's belifs and many mores belifs, believe in amrit, believe in amritvela, beleive in rehat.

its up to u who u want to belive, i think i'll stick with the latter.

 

[plamba]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Okay lets see kala afghanas belifs, no amrit,no amritvela, no rehat.

lets see bhai randhir singh ji,bhai rama singh ji,sant jarnail singh ji,other damdami taksal jathedars,most importantly Guroo Ji's belifs and many mores belifs, believe in amrit, believe in amritvela, beleive in rehat.

its up to u who u want to belive, i think i'll stick with the latter.

I think this post reveals the crux of the issue. Are Sikhs going to study the Guru Granth and writers such as Randhir Singh and Kala Afghana so that they can draw their OWN informed conclusions? Or are Sikhs going to believe something because SOMEONE ELSE (such as Randhir Singh or Jarnail Singh) or SOME ORGANIZATION (such as Dam Dami Taksal) does so?

Believing something because of another is like FOLLOWING a present day Guru. The only present day Guru Sikhs have is the Guru Granth and the Guru Panth. Individuals and organizations aren't Gurus and should not be followed blindly. The Guru Granth teaches Sikhs to evaluate their environment critically and arrive at their OWN informed conclusions. The process of growth, then, begins with reading as many significant viewpoints as possible rather than discarding them outright based on someone else's advice.

Puneet Singh Lamba
Boston, MA
http://sikhtimes.com
(339) 221-1561

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Related News Links

Kala Afghana declared ‘tankhaiya’ - Times of India

Related Resource:

What Kala Afghana says about Amrit Vela (English Translation):

Volume 4 (10 Book Collection) page 50 of Kala Afgana writings

“There is no Shabad in Gurbaani in which we can determine or sense any importance or relevance of the late hours of the night or the early hour of the morning which is indicative of any special powers to transform a person who recites Baani at that time. It does not make anyone immortal.

In those hours a farmer goes to the farms, for the military personal it’s a strategic time to go for the kill and to kill innocent people who are sleeping. The policemen are also trying to catch thieves in those hours, people who capture birds and animals for a living are active in those hours . Its also the most beneficial hours for dacoits, murderers, anti national elements and characterless people. After deliberation of the above there is no doubt that such a time can never be “AMRIT VELA”.

What Guru Granth Sahib Ji says about Amrit Vela:

4th Nanak talks about the significance of such hours for a Sikh (SGGS - pages 305-306)

“GUR SATGUR KA JO SIKH AKHAVAI SO BHALKE UDH HARNAAM DHIAVE”

The person who claims to be a Sikh of Satguru has to rise in the late hours of the night/early hours of the morning to meditate on HARNAAM/Name of the Lord.

“UDHAM KARE BHALKE PARBHAATI ISNAAN KARE AMRITSAR NAVE”

He or she puts the effort in these hours , bathes and bathes in Amrit Naam/Nectar.

“FIR CHADE DIVAS GURBAANI GAVE BHAINDIAN UTHDIAN HAR NAAM DHIAVAN”

At and after dawn he or she sings/recites Gurbaani and performing any duties of life keeps meditating on Har Naam/Lords Naam.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

I don't hate him, hate his writings. I did refute some of it. Like I said, I don't have all the answers, but charan pahul is in Gurbani, Gurbani says it is importent. can he refute it? can you? Like I wrote, I don't have all answers, that's why i gave other sources.

unfortunately, debate on this has been banned by akaal takht, preventing many scholars from exposing him.

You are right ..up to a point...it is not that the scholars are "prevented"...they dont have anything to say..the Khalsaalliance website is an example of "sikh scholars" "exposing" him !! so where is the prevention ??

Unfortunately no effort was made even before kicking him out to REFUTE his writings. He has proof that he sent manuscripts of his writings years ago to Akal takhat as well as many others...but they didnt reply.

Now the result of his ban is that all discussion has underground..his on line books are still being downloaded at increrasing rates....banning abd burning his books got the downloading even faster as everyone wants to see what the fuss is about.

Jarnail singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

BabbarSher ji, I liked the way you are bringing out references from Gurubani to support the facts.

xylitol, As BabarSher pointed out,
"Peevo Pahul Khande Dhaar hoye janam Suhela...
but he also says in an earlier stanza:
Gur Simar Manayi Kalka, Khande ki Bela"

Do you still want to continue by contradicting above Gurmat?

Regards.

Since he has not replied.....please allow me to make some relevant comments..and then we can continue the arguments if need be.

Some info on this second Bhai Gurdass,. He was actually a Brahmin who falsified his credentials under a sikh name and also tried to get away with using Bhai gurdass' Ji's august name and place in sikh history by ADDING his vaar as the 41st Vaar to the 40 Varaan Bhai Gurdads. This "magic trick" was so well camoflouged that no one questioned it for decades...until some scholars noticed the discrepancy ot TIME - how could Bhai gurdass living in GURU ARJUN Ji's time write about GURU GOBIND SINGH ji's Time...further investigation revealed some more VIRULENTLY ANTI MUSLIM COUPLETS in the Vaar. Some Sikhs who had got fond of the few couplets "so sikhi" like the one quoted above, decided to call him Bhai GURDASS the Second instead...yet others started to call him Bhai Gurdass SINGH JI !!! shows that we sikhs have a "sweet tooth" for fraudsters and will give or make up any excuse not to drop such, even when we see ourselves fooled by them.

It is in this vaar that this Brahmin in disguise tells how Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped Kalika Devi at Anadpur sahib in 1699 before KHALSA Ji pargitoyo, and then he further reveals his true intentions when he say the Khalsa is set up only to DESTROY ALL MUSLIMS...and that the KHALSA went on a RAMPAGE destroying MOSQUES, BANNED ALL CIRCUMCISIONS etc etc and TERRIFIED the Muslim population....all of which are Goebbels scale LIES ( meant to cause a rift between Muslims and Sikhs )

The few couplets which are supposedly "pro-gurmat" are put in to disguise the real intent of the vaar, and these describe the Khanda Bata da Amrti ceremony, and refer to GURU JI as Waho Waho Gobind Singh AApeh Gur Chela...and mentions Peevoh Pahul Khandey Dhaar..

What a clever way to make sikhs drink amrit, peevoh amrit khandey dhaar and then encourage them to destroy the muslims ( hoping no doubt the two will finish off each other..leaving the filed free for the brahmin once more )

Jarnail Singh

 

[BabbarSher]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Dear Arshi Ji:

Thanks for the reply.

I think the tone in which KA speaks is what sets many people off. Otherwise if such explanations given in a serious and less mocking tone, would be quite accepted.

In the referred Shabad, I would suggest that we all take a look at the folowing link:

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/0305.html

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=305

I think the whole shabad highlights the importance of Naam and not the wee hours of the morning. The Cantral theme is that we have to sing the praises of Lord - in terms of remembering him.

It is not only that we have to remember him in the morning, but with every breath.

I would suggest that members please do the following exercise.

Please search for the word Wela (in Gurmukhi) in Guru Granth Sahib online.


Few Examples are below

1.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=35&punjabi=t&id=1430

jay vaylaa vakhat veechaaree-ai taa kit vaylaa bhagat ho-ay.

2.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=103&punjabi=t&id=4108

Dhan so vaylaa jit har gaavat sunnaa aa-ay tay parvaanaa jee-o. ||1||

3.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=115&punjabi=t&id=4665

vaylaa vakhat sabh suhaa-i-aa.

jit sachaa mayray man bhaa-i-aa.

4.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=422&punjabi=t&id=19316

vaylaa sach parvaan sabad pachhaansee. ||4||

sat santokh kar bhaa-o tosaa har naam say-ay.

Awaiting inpust for further discussion.

Akal Sahai

 

[Arvind]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Dear BabbarSher,

Thanks for the wonderful message.

With appreciation,
Arvind.

 

[justrandeepsingh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

In the years that followed Martin Luther's excommunication on January 3, 1521, Luther's anti-establishment ideas caught fire and mushroomed into what became the Protestant Reformation movement within Christianity.[1]

A number of progressive Sikhs, particularly among the diaspora[2], are hopeful that Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana's excommunication, announced by the Akal Takht (the supreme Sikh temporal authority, analogous to the Vatican) one year ago today, will spark a similar reform campaign within Sikhism.
http://sikhtimes.com/bios_071004a.html

This article is either thoughtlessly written or authored by a fool.

The Akal Takht is in no way similar to The Vatican. It does not in any way claim to be the counterpart of heaven on earth created to save souls. It in no way claims to transmit any infallible doctrine. It in no way claims to be the only means to salvation. It is in no way the institution that preserves and defines Sikhism.

More troubling is the call for a Reformation-like change in Sikhism. The Protestant Reformation resulted in thousands and thousands of offshoot brands of Christianity. Name me a single sadistic Sikh that wants this sort of {censored}ization of Sikhism. I am outraged.

--Sincerely, Randeep

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Thing to remeber is there are today only a hand full of people going afer lutharian church.

But there was one saint franisi of layola who made socity of Jesus.who are called Jesuits.

They reform Catholics from within instead of going out of it and creating rift.No need to say that even after protestants come in existnace they won more conveets then them.Das hope that you all understand what Das wants to convey.Kala Afghan must do like later and not former.

 

[Amerikaur]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Dear Vijaydeep Singh ji... Das ji...

You brought up a beautiful comparison, although you are combining the names of two Catholic saints: St. Francis of Assisi, and St. Ignatius Loyola. The combination is quite auspicious: the two had quite a bit in common.

Martin Luther communicated by nailing his essays to the doors of the church, introducing a zealous form of evangelism to Christianity, and repeatedly called for the expulsion of Jewish influence from Germany..

St. Ignatious Loyola was a contemporary of Martin Luther.

Like St. Francis, his form of fundamentalism was taking the gospel so seriously seriously he was determined to live his entire life the way Jesus and the saints did...without money or possessions, and with only love for God in their heart. He and six of his schoolmates took a vow of chastity and obedience...determined to head to the Holy Land. If they could not reach the Holy Land, they would go as far as Rome, and offer themselves to the Pope.

He and the Jesuits communicated through higher education. By the time Martin Luther had passed away, St. Ignatius Loyola had opened colleges in many countries...including as far away as India.

Today The Jesuits keep his spirit alive, by running some of the finest universities in the world: Georgetown University, Boston College, the many Loyola Universities, etc.

What difference does education make? See for yourself.

A Jesuit (Fr. Francis Xavier) offers the only European literary reference to any of our Gurus, writing about the martyrdom of Guru Arjun Dev ji in 1608.

http://allaboutsikhs.com/events/arjunmartyrdom.htm

A Loyola University story on an interfaith vigil, offers several references to Sikhism and a Sikh in attendance.

http://www.luc.edu/orgs/phoenix/sept26peace.htm

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the 2nd largest organization of American Lutherans, offers this description of Sikhs.

http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=s&word=SIKHS

If the name Lutheran Church Missouri Synod rings a bell...this is the group that suspended one of their own for offering a post-9/11 interfaith prayer at Yankee Stadium with Roman Catholics, Jews, Sikhs, and Hindus in attendance. (The minister appealed, and was restored in 2003)

http://home.netcom.com/~jrhowell/rel/lcms.htm


Which is more indicative, and more reflective of the style, and emulation of Kala Afghana?

 

[21khalsa13]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

"To think that by reciting mantar in some water (Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit) it will miraculous characteristics is a superstition started by the Brahmins"
- Kala-Afghana (v7, p41)

REALLY???
this is what scientist in japan found when they got people to mediate around a lake and send either 'love' , 'hate' or other emotion.
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Images of water which has crystallised[/font]

On the left water labelled 'angel' and on the right, 'demon'

　

500 people sent the hado of love to this water

Water with the label 'you make me sick'



　

　Mozart's hado via playing a symphony to water

We can clearly see from the above examples that water definitely responds to different hado acting almost like a mirror.

A negative hado creates ugliness visually and the opposite appears clearly more beautiful. The implications of this are surely enormous.

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]How the crystallisation is photographed[/font]​

Images of water which has crystallised 　 On the left water labelled 'angel' and on the right, 'demon' 　 500 people sent the hado of love to this water 　 Water with the label 'you make me sick' 　 Mozart's hado via playing a symphony to water We can clearly see from the above examples that water definitely responds to different hado acting almost like a mirror. A negative hado creates ugliness visually and the opposite appears clearly more beautiful. The implications of this are surely enormous. How the crystallisation is photographed



thanks for all the feedback check out www.hado.netand www.alexgray.com hall of mirrors



but i do agree we should do more vichaar, helps our concioussness to evolve
more listening, more loving of or brothers from whatever faith,
so we can truly unlock our latent potential.

we all have so much to learn from each other.
even the most corrupt people sometimes speak the highest truths
we got piece of jigsaw. just trying to make it fit.
we all sit around the table and suppose while the secret sits in the middle and knows

very humbly

i've learnt so much from kids, and they can't even read yet.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
Thanks sister Amrit Kaur Ji for correcting Das.Das can say Khalsa sahib also brought a good thing over here.

Now talking about jesuits Das had a contact with them for 10 years and still at some occaisions.As duirng that time Das was a hindu.Those people many time did help das without asking anything in return(all christians seeks converts is wrong).When his fellow Hindus were not as such helpfull.

Here das want to say one thing.That is,Knowledge without spritualism,devotion or faith often goes in wrong direction.Das hope that one day Sirdar Sahib when he will realise the truth,which is bounding all the books and not bounded by any book(Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji Say).He will return Back in us.

Yes there are some wrong people among us who do have a sort of personal vendetta towards him.but when Akal makes him spritually sound the way he is sound with knowledge,He will start loving all those fools who hate him.Insha Allah By Akal's will this may happen soon.

 

[BabbarSher]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

I think when we want to criticise someone, we shouldnt quote him out of context.

For people who quote selectively from Kala Afghaana's writings, I would like to present the following links with the complets text of the answers:


http://www.sikhmarg.com/biparwaad05.html

(Please do read the last two lines before the quote from Guru Granth Sahib)

http://www.sikhmarg.com/biparwaad01.html

http://www.sikhmarg.com/biparwaad02.html

http://www.sikhmarg.com/biparwaad04.html

http://www.sikhmarg.com/biparwaad06.html

http://www.sikhmarg.com/biparwaad07.html

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Good links brother Babber Sher Ji,

But das wants to add one thing that Amrit did exist and do exist and will exist. And main purpose was to elimnate caste and bring brotherhood.It could have been done with chran pahul.But Khande Di Pahul also made them politiaclly aggresive which lead to Khalsa rule.

Here thing to rember is that while khande di Pahul is done then we tend to say veer Raas Shabad of Tenth Master.There tune is suffiecent to raise the blood flow.Drinking Amrit is in fact a symbol that we will have this sprit forever in our body which has taken it.Our soul can take in Verses but not sweet water.But bodey does.

 

[BabbarSher]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Dear Vijaydeep:

Yes you are right.. There is and should be absolutely no doubt about the Amrit Sanchaar ceremony. It is only that we need to remember that partaking Pahul is just another milestone in our spirtual journey not its end.

By partaking Amrit we undergo a ceremony which marks us as a sikh. We now need to folow the edicts of sikhism, do kirat, act like saints and soldiers for our defence .. It is now that we will go on to become one wit the sikh.

People who think that they have undergone the ceremony and are now free to let their minds roam and do nothing more are sadly the most mistaken people.

I hope I made my points with the right words.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das bow to your views and just want add what Nirmalas do.AS per them first of all Namdaan(devotion and knowleddge is bestowed) And initiating oF sewa or service of Sangat or mankind is made to follwoer.Then after doing it when some level is reached then that person must ask for baptism himself and he/she is not forced.

Then worthy person cAN baptise.So Amrit is mark of some high state.And as Per Damdami Taksal as well as Nirmalas.Amrit taken from any gruop is same.There is no difernce in Amrit as it is occuring in a particular section of us.