Kala Afghana - An Adi Granth Purist

[plamba]

KA's detractors seem either unable or unwilling to discuss his writings, leading many to wonder (quite rightly) whether they've read what they profess to dislike.

=====

Puneet Singh Lamba
Boston, MA
http://sikhtimes.com

 

[Neutral Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

This discussion seems to be stuck somewhere called nowhere... does anyone has something concrete to share on this topic?

 

[xylitol]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Here are some interesting cartoons on him which I think shed some light on him:

http://sikhtoons.com/beforeandafter.html
http://sikhtoons.com/KalaAfghana1.html

By the way, it is explicitly written in Gurbani that a Sikh of the Guru is to rise before the sun and meditate on God's name.
If you doubt the need for khande ki pahul then I suggest you search through the Vaars of Bhai Gurdass Ji, considered the keys to the Guru Granth Sahib by the Guru Himself. He explicitly states that without Amrit a person is not a sikh of the guru.

I respect the fact that people want to look into his works themselves to make up their own minds. But it is apparent to me that he is intent on weakening Sikhism, not reforming it. He is a panthic enemy.

 

[xylitol]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

http://sikhsentinel.com/sikhsentinel0306/oped_thegreatdeception.htm

What Kala-Afghana says :

WaheGuru is not the Sikhs' Gurmantar
A Sikh should not recite Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay & Chaupai,
they were not written by the Guru.
Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit is not true Amrit

"To think that by reciting mantar in some water (Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit) it will miraculous characteristics is a superstition started by the Brahmins"
- Kala-Afghana (v7, p41)

"By ordaining to get baptized (Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit) an order was established which encouraged Sikh youth to become clean shaven and to smoke"
- Kala-Afghana (v6, p35)

You can also find a lot of discussions on Kala Afgana here

http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=6b7646f21a43150a9a04cd21603501de&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=afgana

http://www.barficulture.com/community/main/topic.php/40976/index.html

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Xylitol writes:-

What Kala-Afghana says :

WaheGuru is not the Sikhs' Gurmantar
A Sikh should not recite Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay & Chaupai,
they were not written by the Guru.
Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit is not true Amrit

"To think that by reciting mantar in some water (Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit) it will miraculous characteristics is a superstition started by the Brahmins"
- Kala-Afghana (v7, p41)

"By ordaining to get baptized (Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit) an order was established which encouraged Sikh youth to become clean shaven and to smoke"
- Kala-Afghana (v6, p35)

Xylitol ji,

Could you please give us your views about about Kala's way of thinking and could you also give us reasons for your way of thinking? I hope your conclusions are based on GURBANI.

Thanx

Tejwant

 

[xylitol]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

I think if you want to learn more about this person you should do some searches on the various online forums. Check out this link for starters http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness/viewtopic.php?t=4230&highlight=katha

Read the Vaars of Bhai Gurdass ji. These were called the keys to the Guru Granth Sahib by the Guru. In them he speaks about the need for initiation and how without initiation one has no Guru. He speaks of the importance of charan ki pahul. The 10th Guru changed the form to khande ki pahul, but it is still the same in essence. It is necessary. Kala Afghana is trying to turn people away from Sikhi. KA attacked the Amrit Sanchar, one of the very foundations of Sikhe.
He's told lies in the past which are on record in various newspapers, read them and you can gain some insight into his character. KA's nonsense is not based on Gurmat. He uses his knowledge of Gurmat to lure the reader in, and does some clever twisting and manipulating. I suggest you do your own research.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

xylitol ji,

Thanks for the response.

Could you please enlighten me about CHARAN PAHUL, its significance, its history, its origin, its intiation and if all are 10 Gurus engaged in it or not.

Thanks once again.

Tejwant

 

[xylitol]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

All Gurus did initiate. It joins a sikh to the guru. there was also a rehat maryada. Just like the panth evolved, so did the rehat.

If you want to learn more I suggest you go to http://www.gurugranthsahib.info and read bhai Gurdass ji's Vaars. Also, listen to katha by Sants such as Sant Kartar Singh ji bindra vale. Read his books too, he no doubt explains it much better than me. http://www.gursikhijeevan.com
There are a lot of good sources out there. Bhai Vir Singh. Sant Narunjan Singh. Giani Takhur Singh....Far better than KA and his cronies who seem to deny the mystical side of sikhi. IF they don't believe it exists, then how did the Guru's exist? were they not mystics? what about the great gurmukh personalities of the past and today? KA writes garbage, reading his work may produce dubda (duality/ doubt) in you. I suggest avoiding his garbage all together and reading the works of real sikhs. It's probably better for your jeevan.
The only reason that crackpot has gotten so much attention even now is probably b/c reading his book was banned by akal takht so intellectuals were not able to refute his crackpot arguments, which isn't so hard by the way.
If you have more questions, do searches on other forums which have a diverse membership, many of whom may be able to answer your question in better detail than me. sikhawareness.com, sikhsangat.com, tapoban.org.

good luck in your search. sorry for my inadequacies in addresssing your question.

 

[xylitol]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

KA takes a person from Sikhi lehi preet ton bahman da marg. if too many people follow him it will turn sikhi di jeet ton bahman da marg. that would probably make him happy.

 

[Neutral Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

The only reason that crackpot has gotten so much attention even now is probably b/c reading his book was banned by akal takht so intellectuals were not able to refute his crackpot arguments, which isn't so hard by the way.

Please be aware note that my personal point of view on this topic is 100% neutral. Any concrete outcome would be really helpful in gaining knowledge about the topic.

Dear xylitol, doesn't it sound funny and shameful that these so called sikh scholars without substance could not refute his arguements. Banning his writing truly based on their ignorance is as cowardly act you ever witness in your lifetime. You seem to follow those who make allegations without any substance. You have so much hatred filtered in your mind and body that you can not think anything other than hate for KA.

KA may be writing 10% nonsense but rest of the 90% is truly based on Gurbani. If the so called sikh scholars can not refute his writings then how can you be so sure that these writings are 100% garbage? Even then i am sure that you have not read even a single book of KA.

Tejwant ji has asked a very simple question and you donot seem to have the answer... The question was could you please enlighten me about CHARAN PAHUL, its significance, its history, its origin, its intiation and if all are 10 Gurus engaged in it or not.

Even if you are inadequate to replying to scholarly questions, even then why are you agitated ? You can ask anyone from any forum to come here and clear our dobuts but only with context of Gurbani. I am afraid, personal opinions based on the hearsay are a big No! No!! in SPN forum. Everybody has a chance to think aloud and clear their doubts.


Take Care
Best Regards

 

[xylitol]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

I don't hate him, hate his writings. I did refute some of it. Like I said, I don't have all the answers, but charan pahul is in Gurbani, Gurbani says it is importent. can he refute it? can you? Like I wrote, I don't have all answers, that's why i gave other sources.

unfortunately, debate on this has been banned by akaal takht, preventing many scholars from exposing him.

But like I said, look at his track record, look at the things he gets wrong even in the context of basic Gurbani and you'll see why i think the way i think.

 

[xylitol]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Anyways, enough on this. My intention in posting is to warn people, especially those who are new. This way there is less chance they will be mislead.

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

If fell it to be very good practice to discuss such controversial topics in order to clear our own queried s regarding the thing.
But I also concerned about what should we follow or preach in such a situation when we find it bit controversial.
It is very obvious that on any such topic there will different views and conclusion as we all are different( I mean extent..) in sense of our knowledge of gurmat and gurbani and for the purpose a body was formed in Sikhs to collectively arrive at one conclusion by discussion and using best available guidance from gumat and gurbani and that I think is Takhat.
So if akal takhat has already denounced any particular person or given its decision on some topic it is not a good sense to go against it
Because it creates division among us and such division is already very much prevailing in Sikhism with all different brands of gurdwaras (like ramgharias…) available
If we really think that a particular ruling or decision by Takhat doen not appear to be right than we should try to reach there to voice our opinion and in the mean time follow what takhat allows or decides.

I also think that this is the way that we can get right leadership at takhats also by just discussing these issues in our local circle doesn’t make sense and more importantly divide us .

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

drkhalsa writes:-

If fell it to be very good practice to discuss such controversial topics in order to clear our own queried s regarding the thing.
But I also concerned about what should we follow or preach in such a situation when we find it bit controversial.
It is very obvious that on any such topic there will different views and conclusion as we all are different( I mean extent..) in sense of our knowledge of gurmat and gurbani and for the purpose a body was formed in Sikhs to collectively arrive at one conclusion by discussion and using best available guidance from gumat and gurbani and that I think is Takhat.
So if akal takhat has already denounced any particular person or given its decision on some topic it is not a good sense to go against it
Because it creates division among us and such division is already very much prevailing in Sikhism with all different brands of gurdwaras (like ramgharias…) available
If we really think that a particular ruling or decision by Takhat doen not appear to be right than we should try to reach there to voice our opinion and in the mean time follow what takhat allows or decides.

I also think that this is the way that we can get right leadership at takhats also by just discussing these issues in our local circle doesn’t make sense and more importantly divide us .

Drkhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh,

Sikhi was based on questioning. If Bal Nanak had not questioned the value of Janeiue, then perhaps we would be wearing those till today. If Guru Nanak had not questioned the ritual of Aarti, then we would be still doing the Aarti puja in front of SGGS and still be performing many of the silly rituals like throwing water towards the sun etc..etc.

As we all know Sikhi is the only religion that has no heirachy, no bishops, no priests, which means each individual sikh is the torch bearer of our faith and we murakhs can only learn by questioning which is the essential part of one's personal growth.

Now coming back to the Akaal Takhat ban. I would like you to read all the above posts if you have not read all where you will find my position on banning books or banning people to address in the Gurdwara or anyother places. As Sikhi is a journey of the individual, noone can padlock anyone's DASAM DUAR, no Akaal Takhat, nor anyone else. So this banning becomes more like a Nazi concept than of a Sikhi one.

In case you were not aware, pls read above about the book Gurbilla Pastshai 6, that Vedanti himself wrote the introduction of. This book was OKed by the Akaal Takhat which consists of nothing but a futile attempt to hindunise our sikh history/concept. This book was only banned after KALA exposed its inaccuracies. It had been on SGPC book list for some years before the exposure.

So do you think it is ok for Akal Takhat to promote an anti sikh book and ban a person who has questioned some of the rituals by giving examples from SGGS? We can not sweep the dirt under the rug by banning people or books. We can only find a common ground by discussing it openly.

I would like you to bring some scholars in this forum so we can discuss this openly hence may attempt to become better sikhs otherwise we will trip on the mound we ourselves have created by sweeping all that dirt under the rug.

My .02cent

Tejwant

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

drkhalsa writes:-

If fell it to be very good practice to discuss such controversial topics in order to clear our own queried s regarding the thing.
But I also concerned about what should we follow or preach in such a situation when we find it bit controversial.
It is very obvious that on any such topic there will different views and conclusion as we all are different( I mean extent..) in sense of our knowledge of gurmat and gurbani and for the purpose a body was formed in Sikhs to collectively arrive at one conclusion by discussion and using best available guidance from gumat and gurbani and that I think is Takhat.
So if akal takhat has already denounced any particular person or given its decision on some topic it is not a good sense to go against it
Because it creates division among us and such division is already very much prevailing in Sikhism with all different brands of gurdwaras (like ramgharias…) available
If we really think that a particular ruling or decision by Takhat doen not appear to be right than we should try to reach there to voice our opinion and in the mean time follow what takhat allows or decides.

I also think that this is the way that we can get right leadership at takhats also by just discussing these issues in our local circle doesn’t make sense and more importantly divide us .

Drkhalsa ji,

Guru Fateh,

Sikhi was based on questioning. If Bal Nanak had not questioned the value of Janeiue, then perhaps we would be wearing those till today. If Guru Nanak had not questioned the ritual of Aarti, then we would be still doing the Aarti puja in front of SGGS and still be performing many of the silly rituals like throwing water towards the sun etc..etc.

As we all know Sikhi is the only religion that has no heirachy, no bishops, no priests, which means each individual sikh is the torch bearer of our faith and we murakhs can only learn by questioning which is the essential part of one's personal growth.

Now coming back to the Akaal Takhat ban. I would like you to read all the above posts if you have not read all where you will find my position on banning books or banning people to address in the Gurdwara or anyother places. As Sikhi is a journey of the individual, noone can padlock anyone's DASAM DUAR, no Akaal Takhat, nor anyone else. So this banning becomes more like a Nazi concept than of a Sikhi one.

In case you were not aware, pls read above about the book Gurbilla Pastshai 6, that Vedanti himself wrote the introduction of. This book was OKed by the Akaal Takhat which consists of nothing but a futile attempt to hindunise our sikh history/concept. This book was only banned after KALA exposed its inaccuracies. It had been on SGPC book list for some years before the exposure.

So do you think it is ok for Akal Takhat to promote an anti sikh book and ban a person who has questioned some of the rituals by giving examples from SGGS? We can not sweep the dirt under the rug by banning people or books. We can only find a common ground by discussing it openly.

I would like you to bring some scholars in this forum so we can discuss this openly hence may attempt to become better sikhs otherwise we will trip on the mound we ourselves have created by sweeping all that dirt under the rug.

My .02cent

Tejwant

 

[Jugraj Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

>>>>Sikhi was based on questioning. >>>>

Actually no it wasn't. Guru sahib says, "jao tao prem khelan ka chao sir dhar tali gali meri aaoo it marag pahr dhareejay sir deejay kaan na keejay"

he is clearly telling us that when we walk the path that we should give our heads, meaning all our clever thoughts and wisdom should be given to the guru and that we shouldn't give our ear to what anyone is saying.

Gubani also states that, "sehas sianapa lakh hoe-a ek na chalay naal".

Sikhi is all about following hukams of guru sahib. In japji sahib the manai pauris outlines this concept clearly enough.

>>>>
So do you think it is ok for Akal Takhat to promote an anti sikh book and ban a person who has questioned some of the rituals by giving examples from SGGS? We can not sweep the dirt under the rug by banning people or books. We can only find a common ground by discussing it openly.
>>>>

Well the examples given are not based on proper understanding of gurbani viakaran or even basic sikhi princples.

However, if you wish to discuss something in particular ... by all means ... lets discuss it. Kala AFghana is anti-panthic ... his writing reeks of hate.

>>>>If Bal Nanak had not questioned the value of Janeiue, then perhaps we would be wearing those till today. If Guru Nanak had not questioned the ritual of Aarti, then we would be still doing the Aarti puja in front of SGGS and still be performing many of the silly rituals like throwing water towards the sun etc..etc.
>>>>

I agree completely. See I don't disagree with you all the time.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Actually no it wasn't. Guru sahib says, "jao tao prem khelan ka chao sir dhar tali gali meri aaoo it marag pahr dhareejay sir deejay kaan na keejay"

he is clearly telling us that when we walk the path that we should give our heads, meaning all our clever thoughts and wisdom should be given to the guru and that we shouldn't give our ear to what anyone is saying.

Gubani also states that, "sehas sianapa lakh hoe-a ek na chalay naal".

Sikhi is all about following hukams of guru sahib. In japji sahib the manai pauris outlines this concept

I did not understand what is the co-relation of the above with the questioning?

By questioning I mean anything which we feel is ANTI GURMAT should be questioned.

What do you find wrong in that?

Tejwant

 

[drkhalsa]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Dear Singh sahib ji

I agree with both of you

We cant question guruji but offcourse we can question people running our takhats

But what i was requesting was you are right in questioning the takhat but are we really questioning them by just giving our views to our friends circle around you and at internet
What i was requeting was to find some way out to question people at head takhat in real time and place but just not in thoughts and arguments
This may also include or eventually lead to right persons be appointed at such position
I consider my fool as i have wasted 22 years of life without even trying to taste essence of Sikhi so forgive for any mistake or bul chuk
But what i think is that there is no Shortage of learned people ( about gurmat ) or real khalsa in our community but i cant figure out why dont they make good effort to reach these places in our takhats and lead us , if an able person will not do this obviously(....just like politics) fools and unable (.. people hungry for power) will reach such places and create confusion in panth

What i was requesting was respect to takhat not the people operating(at the moment)
it ,

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Jugraj Singh ji,

If you would like to have a fruitful interaction so both of us can learn as GURU KEI SIKHS then be brave and stop distorting my posts.

>>>>Sikhi was based on questioning. >>>>

Actually no it wasn't. Guru sahib says, "jao tao prem khelan ka chao sir dhar tali gali meri aaoo it marag pahr dhareejay sir deejay kaan na keejay"

My original post was:-

Sikhi was based on questioning. If Bal Nanak had not questioned the value of Janeiue, then perhaps we would be wearing those till today. If Guru Nanak had not questioned the ritual of Aarti, then we would be still doing the Aarti puja in front of SGGS and still be performing many of the silly rituals like throwing water towards the sun etc..etc.

You copy & pasted my partial post :-

>>>>If Bal Nanak had not questioned the value of Janeiue, then perhaps we would be wearing those till today. If Guru Nanak had not questioned the ritual of Aarti, then we would be still doing the Aarti puja in front of SGGS and still be performing many of the silly rituals like throwing water towards the sun etc..etc.
>>>>

I agree completely. See I don't disagree with you all the time.

Self contradiction can become incurable if not restrained.

Let the true Jugraj Singh come out.. Sikhi path has no contradictions. Lets seek the truth as true SIKHS. I have no problem with you disagreeing with my posts but distortion is not the sikhi way.

Tejwant

 

[BabbarSher]

Re: Kala Afghana: An Adi Granth Purist

Dear Xylitol:

I have a number of questions for you.

Your choice of links for knowing more about KA is very interesting. Intersting because as usual the Moderators LOCKED the thread without warning or opportunity for explanation to the original person whio made the post.

Firstly as I have always said, I am no supporter of anyone, but if anyone says the truth, it needs to be supported.

Some comments from your posts are given below :


If you doubt the need for khande ki pahul then I suggest you search through the Vaars of Bhai Gurdass Ji, considered the keys to the Guru Granth Sahib by the Guru Himself. He explicitly states that without Amrit a person is not a sikh of the guru.

>>>> You seem to be confused, as the Bhai Gurdas II you are referring to here existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He is not the same as Bhai Gurdas Ji who existed during the times of Guru Arjan dev Ji. The Bhai Gurdas II you are referring to wrote about Khande Ki Pahul: Peevo Pahul Khande Dhaar hoye janam Suhela...but he also says in an earlier stanza: Gur Simar Manayi Kalka, Khande ki Bela???? Can you please elaborate on the meaning of this.

The point brother is that Khande ki Pahul is extremely important and we dont even need any documentary evidence to say it is important. It is the ultimate state for any Sikh. However love for Amrit has to come from Inside. Moreover Amrit sanchar is a way of joing the Khalsa, yet it is important that once we partake Amrit, our humility and strength should increase multi fold. Our internal Rahit and love for Gurbaani should increase.

Most people just take Amrit believe that once they have done that there uis hardly any need for anything else. This makes Amrit equal to GangaJal----something which it is not.

"To think that by reciting mantar in some water (Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit) it will miraculous characteristics is a superstition started by the Brahmins"
- Kala-Afghana (v7, p41)

>> Isnt it true. Brahmans used to do soemthing similar... I dont think KA is saying that Baanis should not be recited and Amrit should not be administered (his choice of words may eb a abit lacking), but what he implies is that Amritv Sanchar must not be made an external affair only. People shouldnt think that reciting Baani without understanding and inclucating the meaning (like a Mantar) is the 'way' for sikhi.

"By ordaining to get baptized (Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit) an order was established which encouraged Sikh youth to become clean shaven and to smoke"
- Kala-Afghana (v6, p35)

>> Again a poor choice of words, but not intentions, I would say. Amrit by force will take us anywhere and this is precisely what Babas do now. Amrit is not about emotional blackmail, it is not about forcing someone. It is about Love. If you dont have Love and you dont take Amrit with Love, whats the use of pretending.

The babas do Amrit Sanchar to people who dont even understand the significance and people who are not even ready. It is these very people who then in the face of the 'extra' restrictions posed by the babas give up Amrit and got the other extreme end.

A Sikh should not recite Jaap Sahib, Swaiyay & Chaupai, they were not written by the Guru.

>> Please do tell me in which volume and which page number, the same is mentioned.


Khanday-Battay-da-Amrit is not true Amrit

>> again he implies that people shouldnt think that once they have taken the Amrit from Panja Pyaare that they dont need to do anything else and are liberated from this world, by just taking this Amrit. There is an external and internal Rahit which comes attached to this Amrit and which include Naam Amrit which Guru Granth Sahib says as the one True Amrit.


Its a bit astonising that KA wrote 10 volumes of 300 pages each and all that u can muster up is 6 sentences.

Even If we were to admit that he made mistakes - which is human. ( and I do acknowlege he did make mistakes ...but they are not the ones you pointed out dear) Can you show me a scholar who has not made mistakes in his writings.

Akal sahai