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Is Bisan of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Kabeer Jee different?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Archived_member2, Mar 30, 2008.

  1. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all!

    Lately I had a chance to listen, Prof. Harpal Singh Pannu's lecture on Dasam Granth delivered at a seminar held in Sacramento in California. He referred Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak from Dasam Granth.
    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥
    Mai na Ganeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon||
    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu


    Today I came across the Vaak from Bhagat Kabeer Jee and its translation.
    ਵਵਾ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ॥
    ववा बार बार बिसन सम्हारि ॥
    vavā bār bār bisan samĥār.
    WAWA: Time and time again, dwell upon the Lord.


    ਬਿਸਨ ਸੰਮ੍ਹਾਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥
    बिसन सम्हारि न आवै हारि ॥
    Bisan sammhār na āvai hār. SGGS Ang 342-10
    Dwelling upon the Lord, defeat shall not come to you.

    May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful.


    Balbir Singh
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    Balbir ji,

    This is actually very interesting the question you ask. I did not hear Dr. Haparl Singh Pannu's lecture. So would ask you two questions. Did Dr. HSP ji quote the line from Sri Guru Gobind Singh in his lecture? And did he use this as an example of how Guru Gobind Singh was emphasizing the Oneness of God and not underscoring a different, perhaps more Vedantic understanding.

    Some attribute a Hindu meaning to the Dasam Granth? On the basis of that they question Guru Gobind's authorship. You of course know this.

    My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways.

    Your question, again, is very interesting.
     
  4. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Question "Did Dr. HSP ji quote the line from Sri Guru Gobind Singh in his lecture?"
    Yes. He did.

    Second question "And did he use this as an example of how Guru Gobind Singh was emphasizing the Oneness of God and not underscoring a different, perhaps more Vedantic understanding."
    No. He did not emphasize Oneness of God.

    Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu Jee may be a blessed person on whom God showered His Grace giving him Darshan in a special Form. Many people seek God's Darshan as Kishan or Bishan. Pannu Jee explained that Kishan and Bishan are Lalloo Panjoo. One may hear him confirming this at the beginning of twenty-seventh minute in his lecture. Please click the following link.
    Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu Dasam Granth Sahib Seminar, Sacramento, Ca

    I have not found the word Panjoo in Mahaan Kosh, the punjabi dictionary. Perhaps Sikhs need further guidance from Pannu Jee.

    Quote "Some attribute a Hindu meaning to the Dasam Granth? On the basis of that they question Guru Gobind's authorship."
    Some may try attributing a stupid meaning to the Dasam Granth, to prove that their religion is stupidity. Wisdom is not a religious person.
    Understanding Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Hymns is possible with growing consciousness alone, I feel.

    Quote "My cursory reading -- just very quick and maybe i will change my mind -- but one seems to be the complement of the other. The first is saying I do not worship 3 Gods; and the second saying dwell on the Lord (one Lord). They may indeed not say but intend the same thing in different ways."
    In my observation, Guru Gobind Singh Jee did not use the number three nor Guru Arjan Dev Jee limited Lord within the number one in His Vaak.

    **************

    Can someone please say something about the curiosity? Do Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'?


    Balbir Singh
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Here are two quotes about Vishnu (Bishan) by Nanak V and Kabeer:-

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥
    ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ मोहिआ ॥
    Barahmā bisan mahāḏė­o mohi­ā.
    She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
    Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

    ਕਬੀਰ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਮਾਲਾ ਮੇਲੀਂ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
    कबीर बैसनो हूआ त किआ भइआ माला मेलीं चारि ॥
    Kabīr baisno hū­ā ṯa ki­ā bẖa­i­ā mālā mėlīʼn cẖār.
    Kabeer, what good is it to become a devotee of Vishnu, and wear four malas?
    Devotee Kabir - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
     
  6. spnadmin

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    Balbir ji

    Thank you for the link. Very thoughtful of you and I will listen and get back. Good topic.
     
  7. pk70

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    Balbir Singh ji

    In the waak you quoted by Kabir ji, Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places.( Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh) here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods.
    The comparision seems out of context.
     
  8. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

    Quote "In the waak you quoted by Kabir ji, Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
    Please provide a reference from the reverend Gurus where they have explained that Bisan is the creator. I will be grateful.

    Quote "Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh."
    Ego believes all that it has not experienced as Truth.
    Truth is to experience, not to believe.

    Quote " . . . here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods."
    Guru Gobind Singh Jee never said 'Bisan is Hindu God'.
    Those who have convinced weak-minded people that Bisan is Hindu may be strong fanatics.

    Quote "The comparision seems out of context."
    Why translations are different? Bisan is the same though.


    Balbir Singh
     
  9. pk70

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    Balbir Singh jio

    Sorry to say, again we are in disagreement.


    Quote "In the waak you quoted by Kabir ji, Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
    Please provide a reference from the reverend Gurus where they have explained that Bisan is the creator. I will be grateful


    Respectfully I have to explain what I meant. As you have put a question “May I ask if Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Bhagat Kabeer Jee have different views on 'Bisan'? Please express your views. I will be thankful.

    I was just referring to the use of words like Bisan, Ram, Brahama. They are used in Gurbani in both ways. One for The Creator and the other for well established Hindu Gods/Avtar as well. Here are the following examples where Satguru Nanak uses Bisan in the same sense Guru Gobind Singh ji used as per your quote.


    ਤੀਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਏ ਵੇਸਾ 839
    ਤ੍ਰਿਆਖਹਿ ਬਰਮੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਇੰਦ 26 0 Jap Ji

    Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ (1279)

    In the following Guru waak use of “Ram” is quite contrary to the above use ( GGSJI 1279.), I mean it is used for The Creator, see below

    ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ 37 Japji

    Sir I also I refer to Namjap ji’s post where Kabir ji has used the same word ‘Bisan” for Hindu Avtar/God as well.

    Quote "Though I believe Dasam Granth in its totality was not authored by Dasmesh."
    Ego believes all that it has not experienced as Truth.
    Truth is to experience, not to believe.


    I have expressed my opinions; you have the right to have your opinions about the “Truth” Obviously we disagree about” the Truth “strongly if I may say this!

    Quote " . . . here Bisan in above quote from Dasam Granth, it is used for Hindu Gods."
    Guru Gobind Singh Jee never said 'Bisan is Hindu God'.
    Those who have convinced weak-minded people that Bisan is Hindu may be strong

    fanatics.

    As I said, you have the right to have your views; however, I wouldn’t stoop low to call people fanatics unless they act like fanatics.


    Quote "The comparison seems out of context."
    Why translations are different? Bisan is the same though.



    As explained above, same “RAM” word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator. I am sorry I have to disagree with you on all points you pointed out.


     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Pk70 Jee!

    Please do not deviate from your statement. You wrote " . . . Bisan stands for the Creator as it is also used by Guru Sahiban in various places."
    I could not find one instance where Gurdev has called Bisan the creator. Please let all know which Baabaa has convinced people that Bisan is the creator, or it is your mind.
    The biography of your profile at SPN states that you are writing articles, working on Gurbani of Satguru Naanak and His saroops. I request and hope that you take care quoting Guru Saahibaan.

    Quote "I was just referring to the use of words like Bisan, Ram, Brahama. They are used in Gurbani in both ways."
    Many live in duality that is why they understand two kinds of meanings from the Guru's Word.
    The reverend Gurus choose one word to express the same attribute of God.

    Bisan is Bisan. Bisan is not the creator who created Bisan. The same is with Raam, Brahma or Mahesh.

    You wrote "Balbir j Singh ji, Now look at the following quote from GGS JI. First use of Ram is for Hindu Avtar/God, Ram Chandar." And quoted
    bRhmw ibsnu mhysu dyv aupwieAw ] bRhmy idqy byd pUjw lwieAw ] ds AvqwrI rwmu rwjw AwieAw ]
    barahmaa bisan mahays dayv upaa-i-aa. barahmay ditay bayd poojaa laa-i-aa. das avtaaree raam raajaa aa-i-aa. 1279-18
    Also, the above Vaak clearly states that Brahma, Bisan and Mahesh are created.

    Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu.
    Please let all know what has convinced you that they are Hindu.

    Quote "I have expressed my opinions; you have the right to have your opinions about the "Truth" Obviously we disagree about” the Truth “strongly if I may say this!"
    Surely one has the right to have his opinions and disagree but please do not mislead readers by saying that the true Gurus have said so. At least he can refer Guru's words confirming it.

    Quote "As I said, you have the right to have your views; however, I wouldn’t stoop low to call people fanatics unless they act like fanatics."
    What should one call a person who sticks with his views like Bisan is the creator? Gurdev has never explained this though.
    By the way a dictionary describes the word fanatic in these words. "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

    Quote "As explained above, same 'RAM' word is used for Ram Chandar and the Creator as well. Words are the same; however, context it different. Being a Sikh, I hope, you are very well aware of the truth that Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator."
    I could not find one reference where Guru Saahibaan have called Raam, Muraar, Krishna, Sanwla the creator. Please provide one reference and oblige.


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. Archived_Member1

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    you are exactly right. balbir "forgot" to post the complete line. posting half of a line of gurbani can be extremely misleading.


    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (Waheguru).434.
     
  12. spnadmin

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    Thanks,

    To quote Betty Davis, in the film Hurricane -- Hang on! We are in for a bumpy ride!

    Forgot to say, Balbir always starts interesting threads. The bumpy ride is always a learning experience.
     
  13. spnadmin

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    Balbir ji

    I know that you place great importance in specificity. Would you then be more specific? Three questioins.

    1. In Dasam Granth, Bisan (Bishan) is a reference to Vishnu. But a reference to Vishnu is not a simple matter. Vishnu had a habit of taking on more than a single form. Guru Arjan Dev Ang 1156 attributing this to the work and will of the Satguru

    ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥
    kott bisan keenae avathaar ||
    He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu.

    Kishan is a reference to Krishna, and again this is not a simple matter.

    ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
    kisan sadhaa avathaaree roodhhaa kith lag tharai sansaaraa ||
    Kisan is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?
    Guru Amar Das, Ang 559

    So would you be specific? Are you using the exact reference Kishan=Krishna and Bisan = Vishnu? Or are you thinking of them differently? If differently, what meaning are you using?

    2. What are you saying by this sentence Many people seek God's Darshan as Kishan or Bishan.
    In this vaak Guru Nanaak is saying on Ang 1120


    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ॥
    brehamaa bisan mehaes dhuaarai ||
    Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva stand at His Door;

    Guru Nanak is not saying that people seek dhuaarai in the form of Kishan or Bishan. So your sentence sounds strange.
    Would you say this a different way -- Can you rephrase it? Thank you if you would. So I can understand your meaning.

    3. Why did you compare a bani of Sri Gobind Singh with the bani of Kabeer only? There are numerous references to Bisan (Vishnu) by Gurus in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Why then Kabeer? Any special reason?

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
    brehamaa bisan mehaes eik moorath aapae karathaa kaaree ||12||
    Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
    Guru Nanaak, Ang 908.
     
  14. pk70

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  15. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Your questions are interesting. Please raise those as independent threads.
    I hope. Many intellectuals and learned Sikh people are visiting this site. Maybe someone takes this initiative to satisfy the hungry minds.

    Jasleen Kaur Jee!
    You have quoted four lines from Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
    Perhaps it has become easier to understand now if Gurdev has different views on Bisan than quoted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Perhaps it is the translation that misleads.

    Pk70 Jee!
    Some people live in contradictions influenced by multiplicity of mind.
    Your post is a strange example.

    Quote "On that base, you can judge me. Your judgement is truly immaterial to me though!"
    Does Gurbaanee suggests others to judge?
    And concluded "I also request you that while debating, one must not get personal at all, only those do who are prone to lose cool. sorry to say that Gurbani preaches against that."
    Please do not blame others while suggesting them to judge.

    Quote "By the way, I havent checked your profile to go personal. I dont need it."
    Was the need to write this?

    Quote "Sir, that is your opinion, stick to it and let me be in duality and have my own opinion just contrary to yours."
    I agree.

    Quote "Yes sir, I have to agree with you; however, you missed my point( or just dont want to acknowledge it), I just proved that same word" Ram" is used for HIM as well as for HIs creation" Ram Chandra."
    Thanks. I hope. The awareness remains of this agreeing.

    Quote "You also forgot that namjap ji quoted Kabir ji in which Kabir ji used Bisan just contray to your initial quote. If you disagree with it, be feel free."
    Kabeer Jee is talking about 'baisno' in the referred Vaak not 'Bisan'.

    Quote "Guru Angad Dev Jee is also not explaining here that Brahma, Bisan, Mahesh or Das Avtaaree Raam is a Hindu.
    Sardar Bahadar Balbir Singh ji, this quote is not from Guru Angad Dev, it is from Guru Nanak, Malaar Ki Vaar Mehla 1 (1279)"
    I know I cannot remember Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Page wise. Please join me, finding it again.

    Quote "Please let all know what has convinced you that they are Hindu.
    Sir,
    No body did. Actually I am not affiliated to any one or group but my Glorious Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is very abvious that all these names we discussed are adored by Hindus as their Dev or Avtar."
    This existence adores each word the reverend Gurus speak to me as it is. I do not know why one should add his adjectives like 'Hindu' to those.

    Quote "Guru ji used them as references to clear the mist society had in those days."
    Why some writers are throwing this mist on Sikh seekers now again?

    Quote "Sir, I just share here on SPN sangat , it can disagree or agree with me because I dont consider myself a scholar or preacher. Kindly do not accuse me of that which I dont do."
    Why should a responsible writer stress on word like "Guru Sahiban, Bhagat jio, used Ram, Murar, Krishana, Sanwla also for the Creator." Guru Saahibaan and Bhagat Jees have never said this though.

    Quote "I have found on this site, sangat is very intelligent.It is my feeling, people here share and debate, misleading word is used out of context here."
    True Satsangs are not political arenas. One does not need buttering the readers.

    ਦਸਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ॥(1279)
    ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ॥37 Japji


    Quote "In the first quote, it is about "Ram Chandar" specifically."
    Thanks for no more entitling Him a Hindu. God's loving activity 'Ram Chandar' is also active in Sikhs. This is governing that is why it is The King.

    Quote "In the second one it is about the Creator who permeates in HIS nature."
    The Creator is active permeating in all. The blessed ones recognize His activity Raam.

    Quote "Sardar Bahadar Balbir Singh ji, another request, I do not have enough time to involve in futile issues as you have raised."
    Please do not feel disgusted. Try further finding the answer. Remain is Satsang.


    Balbir Singh
     
  16. spnadmin

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    Balbir ji

    I shall not abandon you but continue with questions on this thread. Please look again at my questions. I should appreciate that.

    Now your comment to NanJap ji

    Quote "You also forgot that namjap ji quoted Kabir ji in which Kabir ji used Bisan just contray to your initial quote. If you disagree with it, be feel free."
    Kabeer Jee is talking about 'baisno' in the referred Vaak not 'Bisan'.

    Why do you think that baisno and Bisan are different. They are two different transliteration spellings of the same thing. We can talk about why this is so.
     
  17. Archived_Member1

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    please feel free to provide your own translation, with source. i will compare it to translations by well known scholars. i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this.


    MODS, this would be a named insult to PK70.
     
  18. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Originally Posted by Balbir Singh [​IMG]
    Pk70 Jee!
    Some people live in contradictions influenced by multiplicity of mind.
    Your post is a strange example.

    Jasleen Ji,
    PK70 will not be disturbed by such statements. He is mature-minded and has gone thru enough ups and downs in life. His life is surrounded by God's Grace. He'll be back in one week.
     
  19. Archived_Member1

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    i was under the impression that named insults were not allowed here. now i see there is a double standard... it should not matter if PK70 is more mature than the rest of us, what should matter is that members should not insult one another.

    is this because balbir is your friend? you have moderated my comments for much less.

    i think the mods need to get together and discuss the "rules" (if there are any). this biased moderation style is really becoming a problem.
     
  20. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Baisno is the devotee of Bisan. Baisno is not Bisan.
    Also, Guru Arjan Dev Jee is singing.
    ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥
    बैसनो सो जिसु ऊपरि सुप्रसंन ॥
    Baisno so jis ūpar suparsan.
    The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.


    ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
    बिसन की माइआ ते होइ भिंन ॥
    Bisan kī mā*i*ā ṯė ho*ė bẖinn.
    He dwells apart from Maya.


    Quote from Jasleen Kaur Jee "please feel free to provide your own translation, with source. i will compare it to translations by well known scholars. i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this."
    I may not be the right help for those who are assisting Gyaanee Baabaas in translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.


    Balbir Singh
     
  21. Archived_Member1

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    please don't dance around the issue. if you are going to tell people that translations are incorrect, please be ready to provide the correct translations.

    no one is "helping" any "gyanee baabaas" here. we're only trying to learn and understand
     

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