Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

I still can't find peace on this meat v.s. vegetarian issue

Discussion in 'New to Sikhism' started by Hardas Singh, Oct 6, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hardas Singh

    Hardas Singh
    Expand Collapse
    (previously Satyadhi)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    50
    I have read both sides of the argument for and against eating meat, but there are still many unanswered questions. For example: If it is wrong for sikhs to eat meat then how come we use musical instruments that are constructed in part by animal skin? I have many more questions like this as well. If I recall correctly I've been a Sikh for about 2 years now, but I still am unsure about this question.
     
  2. Loading...


  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Salyadhi

    You always make such thoughtful comments -- and we are forced to think because of them.

    Will you find peace, I wonder, if this controversy has continued for centuries and centuries. Your questions about animal skins could be matched by concern over all leather products -- shoes, clothing, briefcases, handbags, book bindings, and on and on. The answer in the end probably comes from within each individual.

    We can make individual choices usually, but sometimes there are Sikhs who cannot. For example in Muslim countries if one eats meat, it will probably have to be halal meat in which animals suffer, because of shariya when it is enforced. So the only option is to be vegetarian. As for animal products used for musical instruments -- well there is a question for further discussion. Thanks.
     
  4. dalbirk

    dalbirk
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    884
    Satyadhi Ji , I don't know if u have gone through this link on MEAT V/S VEG

    http://www.sikhism.us/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

    But it is according to me a true masterpiece , the END OF ALL DEBATES . But u right regarding this musical instruments theory perhaps , so one more point goes against vegetarians' logic .
     
  5. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    You have hit the dilemma I hit several years ago. I was so sure of myself and now this whole debate has been clarified:

    On the instrument issue, I found this interesting couplet:

    Vaar 23 Pauri 13 Lesson from Goat

    ਹਸਤਿ ਅਖਾਜੁ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਹੁ ਸਤਾਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਖਾਈ ।

    hasati akhaaju gumaan kari seehu sataanaa koi n khaaee|

    The proud elephant is inedible and none eats the mighty lion.

    Line 1


    ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਬਕਰੀ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਈ ।

    hoi nimaanee bakaree deen dunee vadiaaee paaee|

    Goat is humble and hence it is respected everywhere.

    Line 2


    ਮਰਣੈ ਪਰਣੈ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਜਗਿ ਭੋਗਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਰਾਈ ।

    maranai paranai manneeai jagi bhogi paravaanu karaaee|

    On occasions of death, joy, marriage, yajna, etc only its meat dis accepted.

    Line 3


    ਮਾਸੁ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ ਨੋ ਆਂਦਹੁ ਤਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਵਜਾਈ ।

    maasu pavitr grihasat no aandahu taar veechaari vajaaee|

    Among the householders its meat is acknowledged as sacred and with its gut stringed instruments are made.

    Line 4


    ਚਮੜੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਰਿ ਜੁਤੀਆ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਣ ਸਰਣਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ।

    chamarhay deeaan kari juteeaa saadhoo charan sarani|iv|aaee|

    From its leather the shoes are made to be used by the saints merged in their meditation upon the Lord.

    Line 5


    ਤੂਰ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਮੜੀਦੇ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ ।

    toor pakhaavaj marheeday keeratanu saadhasangati sukhadaaee|

    Drums are mounted by its skin and then in the holy congregation the delight-giving kirtan, eulogy of the Lord, is sung.

    Line 6


    ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥੧੩॥

    saadhasangati satigur saranaaee ॥13॥

    In fact, going to the holy congregation is the same as going to the shelter of the true Guru.

    Line 7


    As for any further comment then just follow the link Dal Birk provided.
     
  6. Hardas Singh

    Hardas Singh
    Expand Collapse
    (previously Satyadhi)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    50
    I read the fools who wrangle over flesh essay a long time ago, so I should probably reread it, considering my knowledge of Sikhi has grown since then. Thank you Randip Singh ji, I'll have to contemplate that couplet for a while. My problem is that the idea of misunderstanding the Guru ji is very bothersome to me, I just wouldn't want to lead anyone else astray.
     
  7. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Why would you lead anyone else astray?

    If vegetarianism is fine with you then pursue it.

    If meat eating is fine with you then pursue it.

    Both positions are fine with Sikhi.

    The misleading comes when one camp (meat or vegetarian) starts to think their position is superior.:wink:
     
  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Satyadhi ji

    Just my personal observation. Vegetarianism among Sikhs is a cultural and familial pattern. or an individual choice. Not a religious one. There are many Sikhs who eat meat. There are many Sikhs who are vegetarian. There are also Sikhs who are vegan (no eggs, dairy, or refined sugar). The choice apparently depends on early influences. Sikhs born into Sikh families that eat meat tend to eat meat. Sikhs born into Sikh families who are vegetarian tend to remain vegetarian. There are always exceptions. Namdhari Sikhs do not eat meat because that is part of their belief system and has been so historically. 3HO Sikhs do not eat meat (again I don't know 100 percent of all 3HO Sikhs, so how can I be sure?). However, their founder Yogi Bhajan did not eat meat. Many of the first generation 3HO's in fact are vegan because they were vegan before they became Sikhs. Some of their children and grandchildren interestingly have strayed-- but only on the sugar and dairy issues.

    In my humble opinion, the most important thing is to understand that the choice to be vegetarian comes from deeply held convictions. We do not do our best when we insult others because of personal and cultural choices by calling their spirituality into question. I am a vegetarian and I don't even bring the issue up with Sikhs that I meet because the question itself could be taken as a veiled critique of the other person. You will make your own choice. Guruji will guide you. You won't mislead anyone if you are honest about your decision.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Hardas Singh

    Hardas Singh
    Expand Collapse
    (previously Satyadhi)
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    50
    Thank you, aad0002. I believe you're right.
     
  10. KulwantK

    KulwantK
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    40
    Sat Nam, Ji- thank you for bringing this point. Many are not sure about whether or not to eat meat.
    One thing to look at is that if one has been eating meat and decides to go vegetarian, one has to do so very carefully. Otherwise, the body systems go into shock and that is not nice.

    Also, there appear to be some people who really feel they need to eat meat. To them, I say, Then make it as organic and healthful as possible; no preservatives, hormones, or any of that.

    Listen to what your body says. I have found that it is easier to do meditation without meat in the diet. It evidently makes the body systems overly acidic and makes meditation more difficult.
    To your good health!
    Wahe Guru
    Kulwantk
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Can I ask the forum generally, why we cannot have more balanced posts like this and Antoniaji's on the meat issue?

    Why do we have to go hysterical about it?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Randip ji

    Children die every day from starvation and injury in places in Africa torn by civil wars. Every life is sacred, even the lives of animals -- but why more emotion for them, and less for children? This I do not understand. In the US there are states that enforce laws more energetically to protect the breeding grounds of rattle-snakes than the laws on the books to protect children against abuse. Maybe there are wiser people who can clear up our doubts and questions.
     
  13. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    So true.

    Someone mentioned on TV that Animal charities recieve more money in the UK then childrens charities. I must ask, what kind of messed up world we are living in where people value animals more than a human being.:inca:
     
  14. rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in

    rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2006
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    17
    Whether Sikhs are allowed to eat Meat or not has always been a topic of debate. Following are the banis of great Nanak from Granth sahib ……..Read them and decide it for yourself.
    मः १ ॥
    First Mehl (From the ist Nanak Himself)
    मासु मासु करि मूरखु झगड़े गिआनु धिआनु नही जाणै ॥
    The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. (its a futile argument - most important is to recite his naam & contemplate on it)
    कउणु मासु कउणु सागु कहावै किसु महि पाप समाणे ॥
    What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
    गैंडा मारि होम जग कीए देवतिआ की बाणे ॥
    It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
    मासु छोडि बैसि नकु पकड़हि राती माणस खाणे ॥
    Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
    फड़ु करि लोकां नो दिखलावहि गिआनु धिआनु नही सूझै ॥
    They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
    नानक अंधे सिउ किआ कहीऐ कहै न कहिआ बूझै ॥
    O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
    अंधा सोइ जि अंधु कमावै तिसु रिदै सि लोचन नाही ॥
    They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
    मात पिता की रकतु निपंने मछी मासु न खांही ॥
    They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
    इसत्री पुरखै जां निसि मेला ओथै मंधु कमाही ॥
    But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
    मासहु निंमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥
    In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
    गिआनु धिआनु कछु सूझै नाही चतुरु कहावै पांडे ॥
    You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
    बाहर का मासु मंदा सुआमी घर का मासु चंगेरा ॥
    O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
    जीअ जंत सभि मासहु होए जीइ लइआ वासेरा ॥
    All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.
    अभखु भखहि भखु तजि छोडहि अंधु गुरू जिन केरा ॥
    They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.
    मासहु निंमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥
    In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh
    मासु पुराणी मासु कतेबी चहु जुगि मासु कमाणा ॥
    Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
    जजि काजि वीआहि सुहावै ओथै मासु समाणा ॥
    It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
    इसत्री पुरख निपजहि मासहु पातिसाह सुलतानां ॥
    Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.
    पांडे तू जाणै ही नाही किथहु मासु उपंना ॥
    O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

    These banis clearly indicate that Guru Nanak never gave importance to being veg or non veg instead he gave more focus on truthful living & reciting lord's name. It is a matter of personal choice then to Eat veg or non veg food.
     
  15. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Nice post.

    You maybe interested in this essay:

    http://www.sikhism.us/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

    PS
    Rajbot ji it maybe a good idea to change youre signing in id from youre e-mail to just ure name.
     
  16. Amarpal

    Amarpal
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    364
    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    What we eat either comes from plant kingdom or from animal kingdom. Both are living entities. When ever we eat we terminate someone's life - either of plant or animal.

    In strict sense of the word no one is purly vegetarian. We all have lived on mother's milk which in the real sense is not vegetarian.

    Those who eat curd, butter, ghee or drink milk are also not vegetarian in true sense of the word. In curd there exist live bacterias which keep multiplying - a non-vegetarian entity.

    An egg is suspended life as the fruit or grain, under suitable environment the life comes to them.

    For me all that is edible is OK. I make distinction based on what my body needs. I am also aware that non-vegetarian stuff (meat) has animal harmons which can generate similar (aggressive) tendencies in me.

    As I understand, one should eat items with which one is comforatble i.e. which is available, which one can afford, which body accepts , your conscience is not perturbed after eating it and it does not lead to problem in time to come.

    Veg and non-veg is not any consideration for me.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  17. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Do you think this applies to everyone?
     
  18. Amarpal

    Amarpal
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    364
    Bhagat Singh Ji,

    As I have said, I go by what my body needs. This is what my brain has concluded. If some one else brain comes to different conclusion, that person should follow that.

    What I apply to myself, need not be followed by others.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  19. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Ok, Amarpal Singh Ji, just thought I'd clarify. So how did you make the connection between getting aggressive tendencies and eating animal meat? How did you come to the conclusion that eating animal meat causes aggressive tendencies? why not the other way around, eating meat when you get aggressive tendencies? Thinking about it, there could be many other factors involved. Anyway, do not mind the questions, please.
     
  20. NavjeetSingh

    NavjeetSingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    14
    I have different reasons to say ' Why don't Sikhs eat meat?' and I have already typed them in my blog and being too tired of typing , I'm not going to put them here again.

    So to find out ' why not to eat meat or Why don't Sikhs eat meat?' click and read.

    Do put your views. Put your views wherever you like either on the blog or here as a reply to this post. I would love to read your views.

    Gurfateh Ji.
     
  21. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    I must admit, the Blog is flawed at many levels in relation to Sikh philosphy. I suggest you read:

    http://www.sikhism.us/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

    :rolleyes:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page