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Horoscopes - Janam Kundli

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Jazz, Apr 28, 2005.

  1. Jazz

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    For as long as I can remember, people from various religeons, and also my own sikh community, rely on horoscpes, well what I mean is 'Janam Kundli', this is taken into consideration at young life, at time of marriage etc etc.

    What does sikhism teach us of 'Janam Kundli'.

    What does Sikhism teach us of 'sants', 'babas', or people who say they can see/influence the future with an monetary offering.
     
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  3. Neutral Singh

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  4. Amerikaur

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    Janam Kundli is forbidden in Sikhi, even though it is followed by some people.

    Those that do follow Janam Kundli often say something such as "It can't hurt, and maybe it will help" or "I'm not hurting anyone by doing this"

    But our Gurus taught us to have faith only in God. Not in star charts, not in fancy stones that have one power or another, not in anything other than HIM. If a Sikh follows such things thinking desiring to see some kind of positive change in her or his life, then isn't that leaving faith to something other than Waheguru ji?
     
  5. Archived_member2

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    Please give some references from Gurbani.

    I will be grateful.

    Thanks.


    Balbir Singh
     
  6. Amerikaur

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    Veer Balbir Singh ji,

    There are many references in Gurbani that promote belief in one Almighty God, and nothing else. While I am certainly not an expert in Gurbani, the first example that comes to my mind is Mool Mantra:

    Ik Onkar, Sat Naam
    There is but One Almighty God who is the Supreme Truth.

    To reinforce this point, our Gurus spoke many times about how a belief in God must be a belief ONLY in God. To "supplement" a belief in something other than the One Almighty was something that Nanak referred to as "duality".
    As written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, page 160:

    Those who are in love with duality forget You, O God

    If one goes to an astrologer, does that person do so because they want to make their life more difficult? Or is it because they are seeking some kind of guidance or assistance? If one consults a horoscope, does one do so to to be lied to? Or to be decieved? Or, does one go to seek some kind of truth?

    What is truth? Nanak helps define it by first saying what is False, in Asa Di Var:

    False is the king, false are the subjects; false is the whole world.
    False is the mansion, false are the skyscrapers; false are those who live in them.

    False is gold, and false is silver; false are those who wear them.

    False is the body, false are the clothes; false is incomparable beauty.

    False is the husband, false is the wife; they mourn and waste away.

    The false ones love falsehood, and forget their Creator.

    With whom should I become friends, if all the world shall pass away?

    False is sweetness, false is honey; through falsehood, boat-loads of men have drowned.

    Nanak speaks this prayer: without You, Lord, everything is totally false.


    After that, Nanak continues in Asa Di Var to say what is true, or truth.



    One knows the Truth only when the Truth is in his heart.
    The filth of falsehood departs, and the body is washed clean.

    One knows the Truth only when he bears love to the True Lord.

    Hearing the Name, the mind is enraptured; then, he attains the gate of salvation.

    One knows the Truth only when he knows the true way of life.
    Preparing the field of the body, he plants the Seed of the Creator.

    One knows the Truth only when he receives true instruction.

    Showing mercy to other beings, he makes donations to charities.

    One knows the Truth only when he dwells in the sacred shrine of pilgrimage of his own soul.

    He sits and receives instruction from the True Guru, and lives in accordance with His Will.

    Truth is the medicine for all; it removes and washes away our sins.

    Nanak speaks this prayer to those who have Truth in their laps.



    And yes, Guru Nanak spoke strongly against astrologers/astrological teachings/astrology, because by their nature they cause a person to look to a source other than the One Almighty God for asnwers and inspiration. Guru Nanak warned about this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Page 904:

    You calculate the auspicious days, but you do not understand
    that the One Creator Lord is above these auspicious days.

    He alone knows the way, who meets the Guru.

    When one follows the Guru's Teachings, then he realizes the Hukam of God's Command.

    Do not tell lies, O Pandit; speak the Truth.

    When egoism is eradicated through the Shabad, then one finds His Home, Reality.

    Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the horoscope.

    He studies it and announces it, but he does not understand Reality.

    Understand, that the Gur-Shabad is above all.

    Do not speak of anything else; it is all just ashes.


    I have to admit, the emphasis in the above stanza is mine. Please forgive my indulgence, but I believe that conclusion is absolutely timeless. Guru's Shabad is above everything. There is none higher.

    The Rehat Maryada also spoke specifically against astrology...

    Sikh Rehat Maryada
    Article XVI - Living in Consonance with Guru's Tenets (Gurmat Rehni)



    A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:
    a) Worship should be rendered only to the One Timeless Being and to no god or goddess.

    b) Regarding the ten Gurus, the Guru Granth Sahib and the ten Gurus' word alone as saviours and holy objects of veneration.

    c) Regarding ten Gurus as the effulgence of one light and one single entity.

    d) Not believing in caste or descent untouchabililty, Magic spells, incantation, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions...

    The rehat goes on to speak of other rituals that are forbidden.

    I will confess that I am not an expert neither in Gurbani, nor it's Vichaar. If I have made any mistakes, I would be most grateful if they are corrected.

    Veer ji - have I been of any assistance to you?

    Guru Fateh,
    Amerikaur
     
  7. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Ameri Kaur Ji!

    Your efforts are to be appreciated.

    But my thirst is still there to know. Where our Gurus have said in Gurbani "Janam Kundli is forbidden in Sikhi?"

    Guru's Vaak on page 904 from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that you referred, also does not say that Janam Kundli is forbidden.
    Here Gurudev is suggesting a Pandit not to waste life in calculating and predicting alone but to go for NAM. As with NAM one comes to know the 'Tat'.
    Gurudev has never asked a jyotish or anyone else to give up his occupation.

    You also referred "There is but One Almighty God who is the Supreme Truth."
    You stressed further that our Gurus spoke many times about how a belief in God must be a belief ONLY in God. To "supplement" a belief in something other than the One Almighty was something that Nanak referred to as "duality."

    We all know that the world is existing. The present world consists of you, I and others. It goes on existing even when we believe it or not.
    The duality does not disappear when we pretend to have faith only in God.
    Duality also does not disappear by rejecting faith in something other than The Almighty.

    Duality vanishes by true Simran of true NAM.

    You have also referred Rehat Maryada.

    I would prefer to understand Rehat Maryada when I accept it as my Guru.

    I thank you for assisting me. Please guide me further.


    Balbir Singh
     
  8. drkhalsa

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    dear Brother Balbir Singh

    Your question seems to me bit irrelevant if you ask like this then I think you will hardly find any thing forbidden in gurbani As you might very well know that gurbani is no like do's and do'not's like many other scriptures like kuran . Gurbani hardly give us a command in particular time , place , scenario I just gives us direction
    same thing applies to many things like this
    about janam kundali , in first place what is purpose of making janam kundali , the very purpose is to decide according to time and place the person was born he is given a set of options by kundli readers ( usually pandits ) what to do and when to do and how to do this inculdes marriage , travel bussinessdeals.... and list is endless and I am sure yo know all this
    now tellme is this no aandh wishwas ( rutualistic ) if you think it is then offcourse our Guru ji Give us direction in this situation not to follow it ( I know word forbidden would be too harsh to use )
    now any way if we think that still Janam kundali is just a form of science that relate to stars and does not lead us to rutualism then offcourse there is no harm in it
    The message given to us by our guru ji is of non dualism and negativism does not exist for us as each and every thing is akal himself it our mind that make wrong ( negative ) use of something this same applies to Jnam kundali there nothing wrong in it but how people use it in their own and others life could be wrong

    Forgive me I have offended you in any way

    Jatinder Singh
     
  9. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Jatinder Singh Ji!

    You know the answers.

    You wrote "I think you will hardly find any thing forbidden in gurbani As you might very well know that gurbani is no like do's and do'not's like many other scriptures like kuran . Gurbani hardly give us a command in particular time , place , scenario . . ."

    In my view, all jyotishis (astrologers) are blind like any other professionals until they come to know Simran.

    All sciences and their studies lead one to worldly engagements. The push of Simran changes its direction toward God.

    Our Gurus have not suggested anyone to change or learn a new profession to achieve Mukti.

    Our Gurus suggested all to come to know NAM Simran.

    Thanks for giving me a push.

    Please offend me often when you feel like.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Bhen Ameri Kaur has given the example about auspicious /unauspicious days from GURBANI.... that should be enough for us to decide that GURU JI is saying..NO JANAM KUNDALII...how much clearer can this be.


    The JK is prepared just to find out the AUSPICIOUS and INAUSPICIOUS days..and when GURU JI says there are NO SUCH DAYS....it means that JK is a Total waste of time.

    In a janamsakhi incident it is related that Guru nanak ji went to "see" a very famous Astrologer at hardwaaar. When GURU Ji arrived, the astrologer closed his eyes shut and pretended to be deep in meditation. Guru ji slowly removed his money bag from his front and placed it at his back. After a while when he opened his eyes...the first thing that he noticed was that his MONEY was MISSING....and he was highly perplexed at who in his right mind would dare to steal from such a great astrologer who KNEW the Past and the FUTURE !!! Guru Ji told him his money bag was behind him....and when he was relived that it was all there GURU JI told him....YOU who profess to KNOW the Past and the FUTURE....DIDNT EVEN KNOW that his money as behind his back !!! JHHOOTH NA BOL PANDEY SACH KAHIEYEH....is RIGHT.

    Astrology is nothing but a highly refined art of hypnosis where the practiotioner actually "makes" the victim "tell his/her own future and past"....he gives out VAGUE indications of GENERAL EVENTS....the VICTIM makes haste to CONNECT these vague generalisations into CONCRETE PAST events happening in his life.....and says Vah vah this man really knows his stuff...I have innocently tried out this stuff and man..it really works. ALl you got to do is don the right clothes, the right personality, etc...the moment you "tell" a woman...I think your husband has a another woman in his life...she will instantly pick up vague instances in her life and turn them into CONCRETE PROOF that her man indeed is unfaithful.....like the time he came home late from work and was a bit flustered....the time when he stayed back in the shop to talk to the salesgirl...ALL seem to Fall into PLACE..and the "astrologer" has his case made out for him....DIG his claws so deep into the victim that there is now NO ESCAPE....

    After hundreds of Years of practise and fine tuning these masters of forgery and human manipulation have refined their art to a mastery of human emotions and insecurities...people are in a hurry to TELL them their own FUTURE and Past... In the WEST this "service" is performed by the PSYCHOLOGIST/PSYCHOANALYST...who earns BIG BUCKS listening to victims pour their hearts out

    IF I wasnt an AMRITDHAREE and a Firm beleiver in GURBANi and GURMATT.. I could make a killing in astrology....its that easy ( and I KNOW FOR A FACT that I KNOW NOTHING about any PAST or FUTURE of anybody even myself !!!)

    Forgive me

    jarnail Singh
     
  11. luthra_sumeet

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    Balbir singh ji ,

    I am giving this info from the given link about gurbani's vichar on astrology.I thought it can be very useful in this discussion.
    http://www.gurbani.org/webart100.htm

    JOTISH


    Do not tell lies, O Pandit; speak the Truth. When egoism is
    eradicated through the Shabad, then one finds His Home,
    Reality. Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the
    horoscope. He studies it and announces it, but he does not
    understand Reality. Understand, that the Gur-Shabad is above
    all. Do not speak of anything else; it is all just ashes (sggs 904).
    <><><><>

    Non-apprehension of Reality creates in us misapprehension that we are miserable, limited, helpless, tearful, desperate, weak-minded, fearful and sorrowful individuals. Our non-apprehension of Reality and the consequent misapprehensions are together called Maya — illusion, ignorance, delusion, false ego, conditioned consciousness, wrong identity, etc.). The scriptures conclude that, deluded by doubts and superstitions, most of us (over 99.9 percent) deal throughout our life with this Maya only!
    • iqhI guxI sMswru BRim suqw suiqAw rYix ivhwxI: The world is asleep in the three-qualitied Maya and doubt (Bharam); it passes the night of its life sleeping (sggs 920).
    • jn nwnk kotn mY koaU Bjnu rwm ko pwvY: O servant Nanak, amongst millions there is hardly any mortal, who attains God's meditation (sggs 219).
    There are many systems of forecasting like astrology, numerology, tarot cards, drawing and reading of horoscope, reading of face, palmistry, palm-leaf manuscripts, and so on. The Gurbani rejects such practice. It's nothing but acting in false ego or Maya; for all calculations are in the three modes of material nature — Taamas, Raajas and Saatav. Those who practice these systems pullulate nowadays both in India and in the West in a futile hope of satisfying their unending lust, greed and selfishness. Since Maya is false, all such practices are false as well. We are urged by the Gurbani not to approve or believe in such Mayaic indulgence.
    • pMifq pVdy joqkI nw bUJih bIcwrw: The Pandits and the astrologers study their books, but they do not understand inner inquiry (sggs 970).
    • gix gix joqku kWfI kInI]pVY suxwvY qqu n cInI: Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the hroscope. He studies it and announces it, but he does not understand Reality (sggs 904).
    • haumY sBw gxq hY gxqY nau suKu nwih: All accounting is in egotism. In this accounting, there is no Peace (sggs 36).
    • saux sgun bIcwrxy nauN gRh bwrh rwis vIcwrw]kwmx tUxy AausIAW kx sohI pwswr pwswrw: Saoun sagan beechaarane naou grah baarah raasi veechaaraa. kkaaman toone aouseeaaan kan sohee paasaar paasaaraa: The life led in the light of omens, the nine planets, the twelve signs of the zodiac; Incantations, magic divination by lines and by the voice is all futile (Bhai Gurdaas, Vaar: 5 Pauree:9).
    Reactionary Kaarmic actions performed in material consciousness create Vaasnaas: the undigested desires, psychological conditionings, latent memories, innate tendencies, inherent inclinations, self-limitations, dispositions, obstinate clinging to a fancy or deluded imagination, memories or subtle impressions of the past existing in our bosom. In turn — since Vaasnaas produce thoughts and thoughts produce actions — these Vaasnaas seek their exhaustion through further causative or fruitive actions. For which, man moves from one field of activities to another within the span of his life; creating unending barrage of more Vaasnaas in the process.


    The system of Jotish is based on the premise that man's these tendencies are recorded under the astrological signs in which he is born. In other words, as indicated by the Jotish, the man takes birth through an astrological conglomeration of signs, also called astrological chart. By reading the astrological charts, Jotishees (astrologists) pretend to predict the future events of one's present incarnation. Card readers, palm readers, face readers, etc., pretend to do the same.

    The truth of the matter is that the planets or the lines in one's palm or face do not cause the events in an individual's life to which he reacts either positively or negatively. It is our false ego or unenlightened existence that causes us to react, and does not let us stick to the Truth. Thus, all actions result from our mental drawbacks — desires and fears.

    The infallible Law of Karma (Hukam) holds everyone responsible for what he is or going to be. We harvest exactly what we sow. If there is a cause, there is an effect. If there is a Karma or activity (cause), there is a reaction or result (effect). This is the Kaarmic principle that brings back the results of one's actions to him, to be worked out later. There is no escape from this Divine Law.
    • jyhw bIjY so luxY mQY jo iliKAwsu: As the man plants so does he reap; his destiny is recorded on his forehead (sggs 134).
    • jyvyhy krm kmwvdw qyvyhy Plqy: One obtains fruits according to the deeds which he does (sggs 317).
    However, a thief, a crook, a liar, a criminal, a materialist (Manmukh), a Maya-ridden (Mayadhaaree) or an ego-man always thinks that he can circumvent the system! Likewise, those who practice or believe in Jotish, etc., also think that they can not only predict the good and bad events in one's future, but, by maneuvering the planetary influence through some paid prescribed actions or rituals, they can also remedy the negative situations or their effects!
    • piV piV pMifq joqkI Qky ByKI Brim Bulwey: The Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers read and read until they grow weary, while the fanatics are deluded by doubt (sggs 68).
    • pMifq vwcih poQIAw nw bUJih vIcwru]An kau mqI dy clih mwieAw kw vwpwru]kQnI JUTI jgu BvY rhxI sbdu su swru]kyqy pMifq joqkI bydw krih bIcwru]vwid ivroiD slwhxy vwdy Awvxu jwxu]ibnu gur krm n CutsI kih suix AwiK vKwxu: The Pandits read their books, but they do not understand the real meaning. They give instructions to others, and then walk away, but they deal in Maya themselves. Speaking falsehood, they wander around the world, while those who remain true to the Shabad are excellent and exalted. There are so many Pandits and astrologers who ponder over the Vedas. They glorify their disputes and arguments, and in these controversies they continue coming and going. Without the Guru, they are not released from their karma, although they speak and listen and preach and explain (sggs 56).
    Before the final marriage vows are spoken, or before taking a journey, or before starting a new business, and so on, many pay dearly to Jotishees to judge astrological compatibility of their undertaking. This is one example of how a conditioned, corrupt, materialist or a doubt-ridden mind functions. Under the influence of body-bound inclinations arising from emotional attachment to vanishing worldly objects, one loses his reasoning and discriminating intellect (Viveka Budhi), and end up not knowing Real from unreal.
    • lY BwiV kry vIAwhu]kiF kwglu dsy rwhu]suix vyKhu lokw eyhu ivfwxu]min AMDw nwau sujwxu: He (Jotashee) takes payment for performing marriages; reading their horoscopes, he shows them the way. Hear, and see, O people, this wondrous thing. He is mentally blind, and yet his name is wisdom! (sggs 471).
    • pMifq joqkI siB piV piV kUkdy iksu pih krih pukwrw rwm]mwieAw mohu AMqir mlu lwgY mwieAw ky vwpwrw rwm]mwieAw ky vwpwrw jgiq ipAwrw Awvix jwix duKu pweI]ibKu kw kIVw ibKu isau lwgw ibs†w mwih smweI]jo Duir iliKAw soie kmwvY koie n mytxhwrw]nwnk nwim rqy iqn sdw suKu pwieAw hoir mUrK kUik muey gwvwrw: All the religious scholars and astrologers read and study, and argue and shout. Who are they trying to teach? Deep within, they are stained with the filth of emotional attachment to Maya; they deal in Maya alone. They love to deal in Maya in this world; coming and going, they suffer in pain. The worm of poison is addicted to poison; it is immersed in manure. He does what is pre-ordained for him; no one can erase his destiny. O Nanak, attuned to the Naam, lasting peace is found; the ignorant fools die screaming (sggs 570-571).
    Who is likely to worry about good and bad omens? By thinking and worrying about auspicious (Shubh or Sagun) and inauspicious(Apsagun or Ashubh) omens, one falls victim to fear and anxiety. According to the scriptures, those who worry about Shubh or Ashubh are devoid of the Divine Name. As the Gurbani says: they do not have the understanding of the sublime essence of the Divine ( Shabad, Naam or Word). Only an Illumined Being is above and beyond the influence of Shubh and Ashubh (Sagan and Apsagan), thus immune from their adverse effects, temptation or spell.
    • sgun Apsgun iqs kau lgih ijsu cIiq n AwvY: Good omens and bad omens affect those who do not keep the Lord in the mind (sggs 401).
    • eyko nwmu iDAwie qUM suKu pwvih myry BweI]haumY dUjw dUir kir vfI vifAweI]1]rhwau]iesu BgqI no suir nr muin jn locdy ivxu siqgur pweI n jwie]pMifq pVdy joiqkI iqn bUJ n pwie: Meditate on the One Naam, and you will find real Peace, O my Siblings of Destiny. Eradicate egoism and duality, and your glory will be glorious. ||1|| Pause || The angels, humans and silent sages long for this devotional worship, but without the True Guru, it cannot be attained. The Pandits and the astrologers read their books, but they do not understand (sggs 425).
    Jotish or any reactionary Karma can never release man's personality from its misapprehensions. It's the unbroken contemplation on the Divine Essence that can set one free from the dualistic principle of Maya such as Shubh and Ashubh. So long the ego-mind entertains its fancies (mental "filth"), one subjects himself to be cheated by Jotishees, bogus Sants or Saadhus, mentally blind religious scholars, deluded priests or Bhaais, and so on.
    • piV piV pMifq joqkI vwd krih bIcwru]miq buiD BvI n buJeI AMqir loB ivkwru]lK caurwsIh Brmdy BRim BRim hoie KuAwru]pUrib iliKAw kmwvxw koie n mytxhwru:After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate. Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don’t understand. They are filled with greed and corruption. Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined. They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase (sggs 27).
    Baabaa Nanak spent all his life trying to set us free from doubts, Karamkaands (worldly entanglements), unmeaning rituals and superstitions. He taught us to live by the Hukam (Divine Law), and, thereby, take the life as it presents itself to us. He urged us to live a Divine Life as a Spiritual Being. A spiritual Being is always fearless. Because the Self, our Spiritual Nature, is not a bundle of fear and temptations; it's instead a Blissful-Conscious-Existance. Only upon Realizing this Truth, the moss of doubt (Bharam) will leave us alone.
    • jn nwnk ibnu Awpw cInY imtY n BRm kI kweI: O servant Nanak, without knowing one’s own Self, the moss of doubt is not removed (sggs 684).
    • gxqY pRBU n pweIAY dUjY BrmIqw: God cannot be obtained by counting; the mortal wanders in doubt (sggs 510).
    Among the millions of species of living beings (animals, birds, insects and worms), the human being alone is privileged to have the choice of action. No other sentient has this rare capacity and freedom to act. Along with the choice of action, the human being has been also endowed with the power to think and then act. However, in bondage, ignorance and greed we misuse or abuse this capacity and freedom and then blame some outside agency such as God, fate or destiny for Shubh and Ashubh omens. Thus, it's not the fault of Spiritual Masters or the scriptures if we keep falling back into the same "filth" of doubt, again and again.
    • ddY dosu n dyaU iksY dosu krMmw AwpixAw: Dadda: Do not blame anyone else; blame instead your own actions (sggs 433).
    • jyhI suriq qyhw iqn rwhu: As is your awareness, so is your way (sggs 25).
    • jYsw syvY qYso hoie: As you think, so you become (sggs 224).
    • jyhI mnsw kir lwgY qyhw Plu pwey: As is the mentality, so is the meed (sggs 116).
    Our deluded mind is the culprit. If we want to end our misapprehensions once and forever, then the Gurbani's advice is to continuously read the "horoscope" of the mind. This may lead us to a question: since mind is nothing but thoughts-stuff, how can one go about reading its horoscope? What is that tool which can help us read the mind's horoscope?

    The Gurbani has given us a very simple tool for this purpose! Every moment, there is a Spiritual and psychological battle going on between the Soul and the blind sense-infatuated mind under the delusive influence of the false ego. We can invoke this God given power of introspection to review the battle of the day in our mind in order to determine who won the battle - the good or the evil. As scriptures tell us, "good" being that which expresses truth and virtue and attracts the consciousness to God; and "evil" being ignorance and delusion, repels the consciousness from God. Thus, we, the material beings, can realize the All-auspicious within, here and now, only if we side with "goodness" and win the battle between the good and evil inclinations that guide our activities on the external bodily field of action. Maintaining continuos contemplation and association of the Sat (Truth) within and without are sure aids to transcend the fancies of Shubh and Ashubh.

    • jb Awpn Awpu Awip auir DwrY]qau sgn Apsgn khw bIcwrY: Jabb aapan aapu aapi uri dhaarai. Tayu sagan apsagan kahaa beechaarai: When He kept Himself, All-in-all, unto His Own Heart, then who considered omens to be good or bad? (sggs 291).
    • bMdy Koju idl hr roj nw iPru pryswnI mwih: O human being, search your own heart every day, and do not wander around in confusion (sggs 727).
    • mn kI pqRI vwcxI suKI hU suKu swru]so bRwhmxu Blw AwKIAY ij bUJY bRhmu bIcwru]hir swlwhy hir pVY gur kY sbid vIcwir]AwieAw Ehu prvwxu hY ij kul kw kry auDwru]AgY jwiq n puCIAY krxI sbdu hY swru]horu kUVu pVxw kUVu kmwvxw ibiKAw nwil ipAwru]AMdir suKu n hoveI mnmuK jnmu KuAwru]nwnk nwim rqy sy aubry gur kY hyiq Apwir: To read the horoscope of the mind, is the most Sublime Joyful Peace. He alone is called a good Brahmin, who understands God in contemplative meditation. He praises the Lord, and reads of the Lord, and contemplates the Gur-Shabad. Celebrated and approved is the coming into the world of such a person, who saves all his generations as well. Hereafter, no one is questioned about social status; excellent and sublime is the practice of the Shabad. Other study is false, and other actions are false; such people are in love with poison. They do not find any peace within themselves; the Manmukhs (material beings) waste away their lives. O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Naam are saved; they have infinite love for the Guru (sggs 1093).
    As indicated in the Gurbani, only that time is Shubh which passes in remembrance of the Divine; only that place is Shubh where the Divine is remembered; and only that breadth is Shubh which is utilized to meditate on the Divine Essence. All else is just corruption — the unenlightened existence.
    • Awgm inrgm joiqk jwnih bhu bhu ibAwkrnw]qMq mMqR sB AauKD jwnih AMiq qaU mrnw]2]rwj Bog Aru CqR isMGwsn bhu suMdir rmnw]pwn kpUr subwsk cMdn AMiq qaU mrnw]byd purwn isMimRiq sB Kojy khU n aUbrnw]khu kbIr ieau rwmih jMpau myit jnm mrnw: Those who know the Shaastras and the Vedas, astrology and the rules of grammar of many languages; those who know Tantras and mantras and all medicines — even they will die in the end. Those who enjoy regal power and rule, royal canopies and thrones, many beautiful women, betel nuts, camphor and fragrant sandalwood oil — in the end, they too will die. I have searched all the Vedas, Puraanas and Simritees, but none of these can save anyone. Says Kabeer, meditate on the Lord, and eliminate birth and death (sggs 476-477).
    • sws sws sws hY jyqy mY gurmiq nwmu sm@wry]swsu swsu jwie nwmY ibnu so ibrQw swsu ibkwry: According to Gurmati (instructions of the Shabad), with as many breaths as I have, I chant the Naam. Each and every breath which escapes me without the Naam — that breath is useless and corrupt (sggs 980).
    • sBsY aUupir gur sbdu bIcwru]hor kQnI bdau n sglI Cwru: Understand, that the Gur-Shabad is above all. Do not speak of anything else; it is all just ashes (sggs 904).

    If we want to release our personality from its misapprehensions, the Gurbani urges us to become Gurmukhs (Spiritual Beings). All calculations are for the Manmukhs (material beings) for his world is in the realm of calculations (egoism or Maya). There is no accounting or calculations for the Gurmukh; because he is relieved of all egoistic or mental calculations through the Shabad-Surti, or God-consciousness.
    • gurmuiK sglI gxq imtwvY : The Gurmukh erases all calculations (sggs 942).
    • haumY gxq gur sbid invwry: Egotistic or mental calculations are relieved through the Shabad (sggs 1065).
    • qUM gxqY iknY n pwieE scy AlK Apwrw: No one has attained You by clever calculations, O True, Unseen and Infinite Being (sggs 140).
    —T. Singh



    regards,
    Sumeet
     
  12. Archived_member2

    Archived_member2
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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    It is interesting to know that Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji knows so much about astrology and Janam Kundli.

    Veernee Ameri Kaur Ji referred a wonderful Vaak from Gurbani
    "saahaa ganeh na karahi beechaar"
    "auspicious happenings counts do not contemplate" SGGS page 904

    Gyani Ji interpreted this Guru's Vaak as "the example about auspicious /unauspicious days from GURBANI.... that should be enough for us to decide that GURU JI is saying..NO JANAM KUNDALII...how much clearer can this be."

    The great Guru's word 'saahaa' is a combination of 'sa' (auspicious) and 'ha' (happening).

    Guru Ji praised God's Hukum this way.
    "sambat saahaa likhi-aa mil kar paavhu tayl." SGGS page 12 and page 157

    I can well imagine that Guru Ji did not consult any worldly astrologer as He was in direct contact with the greatest ONE.

    The Supreme writes for everyone auspicious days.

    "gundaataa vartai sabh antar sir sir likh-daa saahaa hay." SGGS page 1055

    Sorry to say that incapable jyotishi like me try to calculate, read the written by HIM and waste life.
    May HE bless me with His NAM and thus showers His Grace.

    I wish to mention here another valuable Vaak from Guru Ram Das Ji.

    "aa-i-aa lagan ganaa-ay hirdai Dhan omaahee-aa bal raam jee-o." SGGS page 773
    Calculating the most auspicious moment, the Lord comes into the bride`s home; her heart is filled with ecstasy.

    "pandit paaDhay aan patee bahi vaachaa-ee-aa bal raam jee-o."
    The Pandits and astrologers have come, to sit and consult the almanacs.

    -----------

    Satsriakal to all and Sumeet Singh Ji!

    Thanks for providing the references from Gurbani.

    I have pondered over those since long.

    In all those references, Gurudev is suggesting Pandits and Jyotishis that all calculations are worldly. God is not found in calculations.

    Please don't let the mind convince that any other kind of calculation, also one different from of an astrologer, may help realizing God.

    Gurbani says "tooN gantai kinai na paa-i-o sachay alakh apaaraa." SGGS page 140

    It surprises me. Why some interpreters of Gurbani try to inject hate against a particular calculator though, instead of japping and spreading NAM, they spend their life working on a different estimator?

    The most precious way to stop the mind counting is True Simran.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    In old time both astronmoers and astrologers were called Jyotishi and only now we use term Khagol Shastri for Astronomer.

    Guru ji did know alamanac or Panchang fro the use of time keeping like the days of Gurpurabs or other such festivals.

    Then during Vaisakhi 1699 it is possilbe thaT Guru did took use of Astronomers to decide the day for gathering why?

    Well we must understand that Birth of First Master coincide with Vaisakhi and his Birth on Kartik Purnima(luner Month of Katik whith Vikrami era and fullmoon day) is nothing more then pagan ritual of tubarhi being celebrated on the same day like a german festival on 25 Dec beacem Birthday of Christ.

    So it is possilbe that Guru used Astronomers and alamanc for one more reason. As sun moves with respect to earth and we get to know as it enter various zodiac(Rashi or relativly fixed arrangements of stars).this thing made Arybhatta discover that earths rotates around sun.

    But due to movement of earth with respect to sun and suns being visible in differant zodiac gives us one more inforamtion.Declation of soler Angle in either of Hemisphere and its change causes season to change.

    So may be Guru called all Sangat(holy Company) to come after they were free from thier daily jobs of crop protection as it was the time of Harvest and after harvest Singhs could have got a good lot of resources to raise fund for WAR.

    Then while leaving Chamkaur's fortess,Guru and his Sikhs used the stars to gauge the way.

    and still in survey and in Army Almanac and steller positions are used to get way in remote Area to get longitude or latitude of Area even when GPS fails.GPS is artifiaicla sattlite which has its own almanac and does the same.

    So It can not be ruled out that Guru did used astronomy but NEVER NEVER did they used Astorlogy as some foolish hindutva people say(they are sons of those people who called Arya Bhatta mad fro his saying that Earth rotate aroung the sun and such tendency of uniting Astronomy with Astrology ruined the acint Vedic Era astrolnomy).

    As in Japu Ji saihb itself it is writtan.

    Huaqqami Ander Sabh Ko Bahar Huqam Na Koi,Nanak Huqqami Jai Bujhe,Hau mai Kahe Nan Koi.

    All universe works under will of God and if someone understand it then no ego is left.

    So Horoscope,which tells by pseudo scince that by the position of stars or plannet our life is gooing to be effected and by particular riltaism or stone we can undo damge has no place in Gurmat.As If Akal want something to happen then no object star or Plannet can prevent it.Rather all celestial objects move by will of Akal and no one knows it but Akal so why should we try to shamm with astrology or Horoscope.

    Brother Balbeer Singh Ji Das hope you have got the point.
     
  14. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

    You wrote "So It can not be ruled out that Guru did used astronomy but NEVER NEVER did they used Astorlogy . . ."
    Have I understood it correctly from your post that our Gurus were aware of astronomy and made use of it?

    You also wrote "So Horoscope,which tells by pseudo scince that by the position of stars or plannet our life is gooing to be effected and by particular riltaism or stone we can undo damge . . ."
    I never heard a horoscope telling anything like that. Perhaps you want to say that an astrologer tells stories like that.

    Well I agree with you that such statements have no place in Gurbani. I have also not found those.

    A Gursikh follows the Supreme. All stars and planets also follow The Hukum of The Supreme.
    So a true Gursikh is like a star or a planet but never a follower of the Hukum of Stars and Planets.

    Still I get astonished when Our Gurus use words like auspicious day, favorable 'Mahoorat', sulakhnee Gharee (time with good omens), counting of Lagan etc.

    Perhaps you can advise if these words belong to astronomy.

    Here are few Vaak from our Gurus.

    "maah divas moorat bhalay jis ka-o nadar karay." SGGS page 136
    The months, the days, and the moments are auspicious, for those upon whom the Lord casts His Glance of Grace.

    "bhalay dinas bhalay sanjog." SGGS page 191
    Auspicious is the day, and auspicious is the chance.

    "baabaa lagan ganaa-ay haN bhee vanjaa saahurai bal raam jee-o." SGGS page 763
    O Baba, calculate that auspicious moment, when I too shall be going to my in-laws` house.

    "saa-ee gharhee sulakh-nee simrat har naam." SGGS page 819
    Blessed and auspicious is that time, when one meditates in remembrance on the Lord`s Name.

    "bhalo samoorat pooraa." SGGS page 618
    It is a good time, a perfectly auspicious time.

    Humbly.


    Balbir Singh
     
  15. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Well Bro Balbeer Singh Ji,

    As an ex Hindu Das here wants to inform you that as per astrologers Mahoorat or asupisius Days and Horoscopes are toatly differnat things.

    As far as Horoscope is concern it is a sort of arrangement various palnatory and steller position during birht of a human ie time of birht.And based on then there are various extrpolations done to predict the life of that person.

    If something wrong is predicted then to undo it vaour rituals are told.Like wearing stone etc.

    Veras Mahurat is based upon the fact as per astrologers the day which is good to do the job in question based upon steller position.Well due to this stupid thing in past hindus were defeated time and again by foregn invaders.

    Sometime startegecally time was ripe to attack but they relyed on astrologer.In present also in may case BJP even lost election due to some of thier people going in for astrologers instead fo doing fgood for Hindus or Indians.

    But as per Gurmat as you have already givne the Qoute that Day is Best or Good or Asupisouos when Akal does mercy on us and we have devotion to that.So it is Akal and will of the same which mattter.

    Forgive Das if wrong is writtan.
     
  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    Excellent article by Luthra Sumeet. Thank You. Stay in Chardikalla

    Jarnail Singh
     
  17. Amerikaur

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    Perhaps some of the confusion about "an auspicious time" in Gurbani is because "auspicious" has two definitions.

    The primary definition is "of favorable circumstances".

    But in the vernacular, "auspicious" is most commonly used by it's secondary definition: "lucky"



    Can Sikhs believe in luck?


    My guess is...no. Sikhs can only believe in Waheguru. Believing in luck means believing in something OTHER than Waheguru for one's fortune.

    But certainly Sikhs can recognize when a situation is favorable. And Gurbani's constant reminder to remember God reminds us to not get lost in the "I worked for it, I earned it, I found it..." and remember that it is Waheguru within us...within the world...that helps the circumstances be favorable.

    That is just my thoughts, though!
     
  18. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

    You wrote "As far as Horoscope is concern it is a sort of arrangement various palnatory and steller position . . ."
    Then you wrote "Veras Mahurat is based upon the fact as per astrologers the day which is good to do the job in question based upon steller position."

    Have I understood rightly that a horoscope and a mahurat, both are based upon stellar positions?

    Our Gurus have used both words like 'mahurat' and 'horoscope'.

    Does this show that they knew stellar positions?

    You wrote at the end "Forgive Das if wrong is writtan."

    Please write something wrong first.

    -----------

    Veernee (the brave and sister of a veer) Ameri Kaur Ji!

    For a true Gursikh, every time is auspicious as he lives with God's Hukum constantly.

    It does not matter if someone calls him 'lucky' or not.

    He also does not try to choose or recognize a favorable situation.

    For him all situations are Godly and favorable.

    -----------

    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    The article suggested by Sumeet Singh Ji is excellent as it contains great Guru's Vaak.

    But some extended explanations from the writer, in my view, are not in accordance with Gurbani.

    He wrote "There are many systems of forecasting like astrology, numerology, tarot cards, drawing and reading of horoscope, reading of face, palmistry, palm-leaf manuscripts, and so on. The Gurbani rejects such practice."

    I have gone through all the references the writer has mentioned in this article. Not even one Vaak from our Gurus rejects any kind of practice.

    The writer also mentioned "If we want to end our misapprehensions once and forever, then the Gurbani's advice is to continuously read the "horoscope"of the mind."

    I have not come across one instance when our Gurus advised us to continuously read the "horoscope" of the mind.
    The only way to end misapprehensions is Simran as suggested by our Gurus.

    After that the writer raises questions "since mind is nothing but thoughts-stuff, how can one go about reading its horoscope? What is that tool which can help us read the mind's horoscope? "
    And he answers to him "The Gurbani has given us a very simple tool for this purpose!"

    This tool, according to him, is "Every moment, there is a Spiritual and psychological battle going on between the Soul and the blind sense-infatuated mind under the delusive influence of the false ego."

    Is this really a tool? I do not know where Gurbani suggests us for this very simple tool?

    The author suggests the readers further "We can invoke this God given power of introspection to review the battle of the day in our mind in order to determine who won the battle - the good or the evil."

    These seem to be the author's personal thoughts.

    For God, or on the spiritual way to God, there is no good or evil, paapa or punya.

    For innumerous times our Gurus sang this.

    Respectfully.


    Balbir Singh
     
  19. sskohli

    sskohli
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    Hi All,
    Waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee kee fateh
    This was really very interesting read..and i want to add my thoughts on it.
    I think i can speak from both sides...cos i have learn astrology and also am an avid sikhism follower.
    I think our religion is the most rational religion ever and we are not narrow in our approach and embrace almost everything which seems logical.
    If we speak of astrology, i think its just a science as physics or biology, just cos the europeans didn't discover it and its not included in the curriculum does not mean its useless.
    Our Guru Granth Sahib has taken a lot from the vedas, infact it is said that the Guru Granth Sahib, is the essence of the four vedas. If we consider that then Astrology is called a Veda Anga or a limb of the vedas, infact it is called the Eye of the Vedas.
    Astrology, in fact all education in the vedic times was taught, as word of mouth and thas how it was carried over generations. With the numerous invasions in india, this science was not taken further or was not communicated as it shud've been, thas why the discrepancy. The problem is not with the science but the people who practice it without enough knowledge and just want to make a fast buck.
    I think we should appreciate the fact that the sages during that time were able to develop all the complex calculations predicting the motion of planets, etc using astrology. Not going further, even our Nanakshahi calendar is based on the same calculations.
    I have read the works of many of these sages and there is no mention of religion there, its just a science as any other and i guess shud be treated as such, no more no less.
    And what our gurus were talking about was that the pandits at those times (not astrologers...there is a Big difference..) were exploiting ppl with their practices which the gurus wanted to curb so they were agains these pandits and their rituals and not astrology.
    Also if you see now, we are also following the same rituals, not getting the essence out of Guru Granth Sahib, but carrying out daily practices which lead to no end.
    Thanks
    Sandeep
     
  20. devinesanative

    devinesanative
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    I agree with Dear SSKOHLI that astrology is a science and has nothing to do with any religion of he world over.

    Just like we predict the weather forcasting so is astrology.

    If tides can occur due to the gravitational pull of the MOON , then why not does MOON have the effect of the Human beings , as Human beings also contain water , and water is also magnetic in nature.

    so are the relations of other planets.

    Astrology just acts as the guide posts , is not for miracles to happens ......
     
  21. devinesanative

    devinesanative
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    Merely Jaaaping the Naam or Believing in Waheguru won't suffice unless and until action is taken.

    Because , When actions are taken then only it shows that a person has faith and belief in waheguru.

    But if there is constant fear and insecurity in taking actions , then it does reflect that person has no belief and faith in wahe guru ..

    Jaaping the Naam and believing in Waheguru without actions will merely make a person lethargic or may be sometimes "chaaplus" , "chela" , "chamcha","chronies".

    The Luck is that all the human beings have been endowed with each and every thing that is necessary for survival,and if action be not taken to utilize that resources won't make anyone Lucky.
     

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